Debu Mishra, Partner at True Search, joins host Maria Botros on this week’s episode of Tell Me Why to talk about unhealthy work environments and toxic bosses.
Toxic bosses will completely disrupt the lives of their employees.
Employees need to move on when their organization says they can't help them with their situation.
People can look for new bosses within an organization instead of changing jobs completely.
Employees should find a trustworthy mentor within their organization to help them deal with difficult situations.
See more videos at https://gulfnews.com/videos
Read more Gulf News stories here: https://bit.ly/2HLJ2km
Subscribe to Gulf News on YouTube and watch more of our videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/GulfNewsTV
#UAEnews #careers #podcast
Toxic bosses will completely disrupt the lives of their employees.
Employees need to move on when their organization says they can't help them with their situation.
People can look for new bosses within an organization instead of changing jobs completely.
Employees should find a trustworthy mentor within their organization to help them deal with difficult situations.
See more videos at https://gulfnews.com/videos
Read more Gulf News stories here: https://bit.ly/2HLJ2km
Subscribe to Gulf News on YouTube and watch more of our videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/GulfNewsTV
#UAEnews #careers #podcast
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NewsTranscript
00:00So if you, if, if for any reason, if you get into the equation of creating that
00:06sense of insecurity, then you become the victim of the backlash, because making,
00:12proving to others that you're not that great, then becomes the agenda of the
00:16boss. When you look at toxicity, it gets triggered by aspects which are purely
00:22about insecurity.
00:22Welcome to a new episode of Tell Me Why. If you're a returning listener, or if
00:33you're a brand new listener, our show is about telling you why anything in the
00:38world that you may question. So we will ask each guest a Tell Me Why question
00:44related to their expertise. And we will dive deeper into the topic to answer all
00:51your questions, and give you the advice that you need. Today's guest is Debu
00:56Mishra. He is with me today, because we're going to talk everything careers
01:01today and in the future. He is going to be a returning guest. Debu, how are you?
01:06Welcome to our studio.
01:08All right. So Debu actually has been doing this for quite some time. And the
01:15latest topic that we heard from you, or that we've read from you, is about
01:22overcoming a toxic boss. What a headline. I think that is such a massive and
01:28powerful headline. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. It resonates
01:32with so many of our readers and our listeners. So tell me a bit more about
01:36that. Like what came to mind when you decided to write an article about this?
01:41So a bit of personal experience as well. As I had written in the article, most of
01:47us experience a toxic boss at some stage in our life.
01:50Correct.
01:51It's very rare that you'll get through your career without having, you know, had
01:55the benefit of working with a toxic boss.
01:57Benefit, yes.
01:59There is a benefit because once you know what a toxic boss looks like, then you
02:04begin to appreciate those who are not.
02:06Who are not, okay.
02:07And you know that you need to keep, you know, your relationship going with them.
02:10That's the glass half full kind of look into it. Okay.
02:14So the genesis of what makes a toxic boss starts with, I wouldn't blame people who
02:22are toxic bosses because they most of the time don't even realize that how toxic
02:27they are and what they're doing to the teams.
02:28Okay.
02:30It happens when a leader or a boss gets too focused on the task at hand and ignores
02:37the people who he or she is working with and who's responsible for helping him or
02:44her get things done.
02:46So when the task becomes extremely important, you tend to, you know, display
02:52toxic behaviors, which is pushing, creating stress, being too focused on the
02:59outcomes and the results and not knowing, not helping people understand the process
03:04of how to do things.
03:06But there is a darker side to toxicity, which becomes very, very dangerous when
03:12bosses tend to believe that their insecurities of how good or bad they are
03:18is fed by making others feel small and therefore they feel superior.
03:23So the need to feel superior to the people that they lead sometimes spills over into
03:30the dark side of leadership, which is yelling and shouting and screaming and
03:35making others look small so that they appear to be superior.
03:39They may not, in most cases they are not.
03:42So toxicity has two elements to it, a very strong focus on the task and ignoring the
03:48people who will get it done.
03:51And the second is a very strong focus on the need to feel superior and in the process
03:56destroying the people that you're working with, making them feel small.
04:00So a combination of this is extremely, extremely dangerous and it starts to impact
04:05mental health, productivity, morale, all of those.
04:10So that's actually like one of the questions that I had in mind is how do you deal with
04:15that? Because certainly like having a toxic boss doesn't only affect your day to day
04:20operations in the company that you're in, but it also has worse, like much worse
04:25repercussions, like outside of work as well.
04:29You might find yourself, you know, lashing out or the repercussions just continue with
04:35you. So I wanted to ask you about that.
04:37So the spillover is into family life, into your social circle and water cooler
04:43conversation. So if you find in an organization that people are constantly, you
04:50know, meeting and talking in hushed tones near the water cooler or over a cup of tea,
04:57obviously they're trying to vent the stress that they have experienced.
05:01And at home, relationships start getting impacted because you're so stressed out.
05:07That you transfer that toxicity into the personal relationships as well.
05:12So you get too caught up with work and therefore you're ignoring your loved ones.
05:16Yes. The stress of the work starts impacting personal relationships.
05:21Health, as I said, that, you know, you'll get ulcers.
05:24If you cannot speak up, you will see that you'll get ulcers and acid reflux.
05:31All of these are signs that you're trying to bottle in your stress and frustration.
05:37The reason why it is, it happens or the reason why it happens is that in many
05:44organizations, the performance or the outcomes and results are over indexed in terms
05:50of importance. And therefore the high performers are given a free pass with their
05:55behavior. And you'll see this repeated across almost all across the world in most
06:01organizations. And it is also very dominant in, you know, Asian and Western cultures as
06:07well, where performance and money and compensation and stature and prestige become
06:15very, very, you know, signals of achievement.
06:20In those societies and those scenarios, toxic behaviors are tolerated, tolerated by the
06:28larger population.
06:30Is it because industries or companies have become more number driven than quality, maybe
06:37driven? Do you feel like is it because people are focusing on the numbers and getting the
06:41most out of their employees rather than their well-being and the quality?
06:46Yeah, it's a cascade effect.
06:48So you look at the stock prices, they are determined by analysts.
06:52Analysts look at the growth projections, the profitability.
06:56Yeah. And that then transfers to the board and the CEO and that how do I improve my
07:02numbers? How do I improve profitability?
07:04And all of these then dovetail into a very simple equation.
07:10You every leader is trying to ensure that they're getting more done with less and
07:18they're achieving more with the same.
07:20So these are the two.
07:22And that's a stress that's pushing stress down.
07:25So the markets, investors create stress for the board and the leadership, the board and
07:31the leadership then ask the management team or the CXO team to deliver on that.
07:38And if the leaders are not equipped or they haven't been trained and invested in how to
07:46deal with that pressure, they will just rain down on the people below them.
07:51Yes. So that's passing the, you know, the dark clouds rain down on the weakest of the
07:57lot, which is the young and those who don't have enough or a strong enough voice in the
08:03organization. So it's all linked.
08:06It's all linked. And we live in a very, you know, achievement driven society where the
08:12measure of success is faster cars, bigger houses, more compensation, where you are
08:20holidaying. Biggest, tallest, fastest, you know, yeah.
08:24More advanced. That's a pressure and that reflects in toxicity in the world of work.
08:30Okay. So before we dive into how I overcome this toxicity and how I overcome a toxic
08:36boss, like what are some tips and tricks?
08:39Before we dive into that, I wanted to ask a question about a toxic boss that may not even
08:45be getting stress from above.
08:46So it's a possible scenario that your manager or boss at that time felt threatened.
08:53Okay. So if your performance stood out amongst the others, so if it was only you, if your
08:59performance stood out and he wasn't receiving enough praise for what he was doing, then
09:07you were the, you know, threat to his, you know, presence or even relevance in the team.
09:16Right. When you look at toxicity, it gets triggered by aspects which are purely about
09:23insecurity. Okay.
09:24So if you, if for any reason, if you get into the equation of creating that sense of
09:31insecurity, then you become the victim of the backlash because making, proving to others
09:38that you are not that great then becomes the agenda of the boss.
09:41Okay. If you are seen as, you know, doing fantastic job and there's not enough praise
09:46coming in the boss's way, then you become the, you become the problem which needs to be
09:52solved by making, creating enough evidence that you are not that good.
09:57Okay. So we've spoken about what characterizes a toxic boss.
10:02How do I overcome it?
10:03If I am today in a toxic environment, in a toxic work environment to be specific, and my
10:09boss is definitely making it worse.
10:12What are some tips and tricks?
10:14First is, I would say that reflect upon, do you have enough evidence?
10:20So is there enough factual evidence or do you feel that way?
10:24Is it your perception?
10:26So it's extremely important to know like your case that you highlighted.
10:31If you were the only one receiving the toxic behavior, you should just check that, you
10:38know, reconfirm that you are the only one.
10:40Yeah. And then go to the root cause of saying that, why is it happening?
10:43Is it that, you know, you're making the boss insecure?
10:47Is there a reason? Are you doing things in a way which is not acceptable to them or
10:52unpleasant? Are you leaving a lot of gray area where they are struggling to understand how
10:57they can be relevant to you?
10:59It's a relationship.
11:00Okay. It's not transactional.
11:01So it's a relationship.
11:02Even their relevance for that boss subordinate relationship has to be, you know, looked
11:09into. Now, if you were to understand the facts as to it is actually just a toxic boss
11:17irrespective of who they are interacting with, that's one analysis.
11:22Then you'll have to deal with it separately.
11:24If it is just you and the boss and he or she is perfectly fine with everybody else, then
11:30that has to be dealt with separately because it could be, you could have triggered, there
11:34could have been an instance or an event where you could have triggered a sense of
11:38insecurity or sense of unhappiness for which you're receiving this behavior.
11:44So first take the step of understanding what's causing it.
11:47Is it the person or is it just the relationship, you know, that's causing it?
11:52The second aspect is to go and once you have understood that to go into the reason or
11:57what is driving that behavior.
11:59So is it that you're not keeping the boss informed about what you're doing?
12:03Some people, and it's quite fair for leaders and managers, some people would like to be
12:09deeply involved. They want to know what's happening.
12:12The micromanager types.
12:13I would say that they are perfectionists.
12:16They have a standard.
12:17And therefore, if they don't trust you to deliver to those standards, they would
12:20micromanage. And I say this with great confidence because I have been a micromanager in
12:25the past. So that's my justification.
12:28Being a micromanager, that you want to deliver a particular standard.
12:34And if you don't have faith in the individual that they or he or she would deliver to
12:38that standard, you tend to micromanage to ensure that those standards are going to be
12:44met.
12:45We spoke about how to deal with them and we spoke about the traits of toxic bosses and
12:51we spoke about what may cause it, the implications it has on the employee.
12:56Now, there's a buzzword that's been trending quite a lot these days.
13:02Gaslighting.
13:04So I want to talk about gaslighting because I feel like it's one of the traits of a toxic
13:09boss. I feel like toxic bosses do gaslight their employees.
13:14Can you maybe tell us the different types of gaslighting and how bosses use or abuse
13:20it?
13:20So gaslighting largely is feeding the insecurity of the boss.
13:25That's the only reason that they would use it and which I explained earlier that the
13:31need to feel superior by making others feel small and the ways in which somebody could
13:38do it. It's an immense opportunity space for somebody who wants to do it.
13:44Public humiliation, always finding faults, you know, completely disrupting lives of
13:52people. You set up a meeting and you don't turn up and you have made somebody prepare,
13:58you know, over the weekend for a meeting and you just don't turn up or cancel it at the
14:03last moment.
14:04Somebody who spent the entire weekend preparing for it, you know, just imagine how they
14:08feel. They feel miserable.
14:10So gaslighting takes various shapes and form and largely driven to feel bigger and by
14:20making somebody else feel smaller.
14:23In many cases, you know, I work with leaders and I keep telling them that if people hide
14:30the bad news from you, it's a danger sign.
14:34That means that they don't want to be shouted at.
14:38They don't want to be hauled up.
14:40And if you keep pointing out mistakes and, you know, shortcomings.
14:44So there are two types of review meetings that happen in organizations.
14:48One is where the entire meeting will focus on what did not get done, what was not
14:54achieved. And there's another meeting where there will be a fair share of appreciation
15:00of, you know, what was achieved, progress made and a very, very positive and constructive
15:06discussion around wherever things didn't happen, how we could make it happen.
15:11So it's a it's a feed forward of saying that great job.
15:14These were stuff done brilliantly.
15:17This is very good progress.
15:19Let's now discuss, you know, what needs to be done.
15:22And here are possible ways in which you could possibly, you know, approach it.
15:26And let's review it and see so that we are able to achieve it.
15:29Right. The difference between the two scenarios is that organizations which have this, you
15:34know, approach of focusing on the negatives and what didn't happen.
15:39The bad news is brushed under the carpet or it is hidden.
15:42Right. So people start hiding skeletons in the cupboard.
15:46And it never comes out till it's too late.
15:49That's that's a very unhealthy environment.
15:52Everybody is stressed because bad news is lurking all around.
15:55But it's not visible. And organization performance starts dipping because you're not
16:01focused on the right things.
16:03So my suggestion to people is that if you see gaslighting as a behavior, you need to
16:10point out to the leader what harm it will do for the business performance, for their own
16:16performance. If there is a way for you to highlight that, you could probably stem the
16:20gaslighting initially.
16:22But if it is just an individual, if it is not the organizational culture, but if it is just
16:28an individual who does it, find an avenue.
16:30Most organizations have a healthy corporate governance approach where they have, you
16:36know, a helpline or they even have an anonymous whistleblower policy.
16:41Yeah. So do that so that the facts come out and somebody steps in and stems the rod early.
16:47OK. So this this would be the right approach.
16:51And otherwise you can't do much about it.
16:53If it is just the individual, we don't work in organizations to fix the problem
16:59individually. We work in organizations to operate as a team and focus on the larger good
17:04for the organization, which is dealing with toxic behavior as it needs to be dealt with.
17:09Of course. OK, so let's say I've done everything I could.
17:14I have spoken to my boss one on one, tried to figure things out, used all the tips that
17:20you've provided us today, yet I'm still dealing with the same problems over and over
17:26again. Maybe it gets better for a period of time, but we go back to square one.
17:32What is your advice for a person like that?
17:34Is it time to move on?
17:37Is it time to maybe explore other options?
17:41What is your advice?
17:43Time to move on is when the organization says that they won't be able to deal with it.
17:48OK. So if you get a response from the larger organization that we this is a this
17:54individual is a high performer.
17:56This individual is doing great.
17:59We can't really do much about your discomfort or unhappiness with it.
18:03Yeah, that's the time to move on because it's it's not going to get as I pointed out
18:07earlier, the investors, the stock markets, everybody else is putting enough pressure.
18:13They would rather deal with that than one unhappy employee.
18:17Of course. But if the larger organization is supportive, if the environment is healthy, it
18:24is important for you to find a new boss and the new bosses need not necessarily outside the
18:29organization. You could move roles within the organization, go and work in another
18:33division or another team where the individual is known for being a great person.
18:40The second is to find a mentor within the organization.
18:44So somebody who will tell you how to deal with the situation, which will take a very
18:48constructive and positive approach of, you know, fixing the problem by moving you
18:55to a to somebody else who's more nurturing and supportive.
18:59And the third is third and most important is that you ensure that you have documented
19:04it. It cannot be telephonic conversations, in-person conversations.
19:10Write it down, you know, put it down in an email, share it with HR, share it with a
19:16leadership team member saying that, you know, I'm struggling with this.
19:19Yeah. I need I need some guidance.
19:21Can can you suggest somebody who can guide me through this?
19:24Maybe I need to figure out a way of doing things differently.
19:27Right. So be constructive about it rather than complaining.
19:31But document it. The moment you document it, it becomes a priority for everybody to resolve
19:37it. Hear say conversations which are not on record really never help.
19:44Of course. Of course.
19:45I mean, everyone says have everything in written form so that you can you have something to
19:50present as proof.
19:52Okay. So mentioning that, actually, I remembered I have a friend who was complaining about
19:57her boss, who is actually quite inappropriate in the workplace, uses inappropriate
20:02language and doesn't necessarily have a good relationship with any of the employees.
20:07I remember she went to HR and she complained and they did take it seriously.
20:12However, nothing changed.
20:14What's the next step? What would your next advice be for her?
20:18Follow up or what else can she do?
20:21Be very explicit about it with the person whose behavior is inappropriate and do it very
20:28explicitly. Okay.
20:29Saying that, you know, this behavior of yours, this is the impact it is having on me.
20:34It makes me feel, you know, it is demeaning.
20:37It stresses me out.
20:40It causes a lot of mental trauma for me.
20:42Right. The next time around, I would expect you to, you know, do it in this way.
20:47I would really appreciate it.
20:48Okay. Do it once or twice, thrice and then register a formal complaint because sometimes
20:53the person on the other side doesn't know what impact or how serious it is.
20:59Yeah. You know, like inappropriate jokes, inappropriate behavior, inappropriate
21:06language is sometimes sometimes seen as progress and therefore it becomes a bragging
21:13right rather than seen as inappropriate behavior.
21:16Yeah. So pointing it out and expressing your discomfort is extremely, extremely important
21:21as a first step. It's been a pleasure just having this conversation with you.
21:26So many more questions have come to mind, but we will save those for next time because
21:30we'll talk everything careers like we'll talk about career progression.
21:34We'll talk about finding new skills.
21:37We will talk about these things with you again, Devu.
21:39To the listeners, the most important thing is that you should be taking care of yourself
21:47and only when you have taken care of yourself will you be in a position to do good work
21:51or to lead others. So take care of yourself.
21:54Don't get too stressed.
21:56Deal with the stress.
21:57If it is a toxic boss, deal with it appropriately.
22:00Golden advice.
22:01I think that's spot on.
22:03Thank you so much.
22:04We look forward to having you back on.
22:07And to our listeners, you know the drill.
22:09If you want to send in any questions, podcast at gulfnews.com.
22:13If you want to suggest any topics that we could discuss with Devu, podcast at gulfnews.com.
22:19We will also link to Devu's article, which has been published on gulfnews.com and we'll
22:25catch you guys next time.