Today’s most notable creatives join Variety at Sundance for exclusive in-depth conversations across various entertainment mediums, presented by Audible.
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00:00I do think the way that we approach sex in our movie is a little bit, it might be different,
00:03I don't know, I feel like there is an innocence to it in some ways, so maybe they'll respond
00:06differently to ours.
00:20Thank you guys so much for joining us.
00:21Plain Clothes premieres at the Sundance Film Festival today.
00:23I saw it yesterday.
00:24I really loved the movie.
00:25Carmen, can you start by talking about coming to Sundance with your film and how it feels,
00:31and also just tell us a little bit about some of the themes in Plain Clothes.
00:34Yeah, it's a dream to be at Sundance.
00:38This is something I've wanted since I saw Little Miss Sunshine in the theaters with
00:42my parents in Syracuse.
00:44I always just kind of had Sundance on a pedestal, and so to get to be here, it's the greatest
00:49honor besides being an uncle.
00:53But it's a dream.
00:54There's so much love and support for us filmmakers, so I'm just so happy.
00:59Yeah, the themes of the film, I suppose, I set out to answer the question of what it
01:05feels like to police your feelings.
01:07So a lot about the themes of anxiety, suppression, paranoia, but also love and self-acceptance,
01:15I suppose, are the major themes that are in the film, I would say.
01:20It's also about what it was like to be in the closet in the 90s and how different it
01:24was before there was technology in which people could connect and apps in which people
01:27could talk to each other.
01:28But I don't know if you were around in the 90s.
01:31Yeah.
01:32So how did you capture that time period?
01:35Yeah, I said it in 1997 because I think I was six or seven, yeah, when I started kind
01:42of knowing that it wasn't good to be gay, just by social cues that I saw growing up,
01:48I suppose.
01:50That was the reason I said it in the 90s, and I suppose to make it come to life, you
01:53know, I used this Hi8, my childhood camera, actually.
01:57It ultimately ended up being used to represent Lucas's anxiety and what he saw.
02:02But I think that that format just inherently helps you, the audience, feel like they're
02:07in that time and place.
02:09We were really, you know, we're a low-budget film.
02:11We shot it in 18 days.
02:12So anything we could do to help set the audience in that world was helpful.
02:18So we got super crafty, yeah.
02:21Russell, how did the movie come to you?
02:23It came to, it came an offer, came through.
02:26We had a conversation on Zoom, and I knew Tom was attached, and I had a Zoom with Tom,
02:32and we got on so well, and I think he's amazing.
02:34And we both completely connected to the piece.
02:38So it was an easy yes, and I've always wanted to visit Syracuse.
02:41I don't know why, but it sounded really romantic and magical.
02:44It kind of was.
02:46Parts of it wasn't, but a lot of it was.
02:49And it was just one of them projects, you just read the scripts, you know straight away
02:53that you want to be part of that world.
02:55That sounds like a quote from Little Mermaid, but I did feel like that.
02:59I know that Tom isn't here, but this is such a big role for him,
03:02and he carries so much of the movie.
03:03Can you talk a little bit about how you found Tom for this?
03:06And were you, did he have to audition?
03:08Or how did you know he was right for this role?
03:10Yeah, this was my first film.
03:12So I wasn't really in a position to be able to audition, totally.
03:18With, you know, with Tom, with the character of Lucas, it was hard.
03:21We saw so many amazing actors, honestly, for the role.
03:27Or, you know, I was looking at a lot of different actors.
03:30But yeah, he came to me, and I saw the Hunger Games that he was in.
03:37I hadn't really heard about him before.
03:39And so I saw the Hunger Games, and I was like, okay.
03:41And then we did a Zoom, and it was just one of those things where
03:44he popped up on camera, and I just knew.
03:47I wrote the character to be like, he was kind of in my mind,
03:50a combination of my brother, who is a police officer, and me.
03:54So that was impossible for the casting directors,
03:57because I wasn't going to be in the film.
03:59My brother was not going to be in the film.
04:01But yeah, Tom, as soon as he got on that Zoom, his eyes,
04:05I felt like, just told a beautiful story.
04:07And so much of Lucas's journey is told through Lucas's eyes.
04:11And I knew that that would be really key to telling this story.
04:14Maria, can you talk a little bit about how you sort of became your character?
04:17What was it like?
04:18And also, there's a lot of sort of long shots with the family in the house,
04:21and what it was like filming those.
04:24Yeah, well, becoming the character,
04:26one of the reasons why I was interested in working on the script
04:31is because it was an Italian-American family,
04:33and I've had so few opportunities to do that.
04:37And so when I read the little snippets of dialogue,
04:40the whole world was so familiar to me.
04:44That chaos, right?
04:45Love and chaos and that brusqueness.
04:50So I was really excited to be a part of that.
04:52And then meeting Tom and seeing him,
04:59and watching him as he became Lucas,
05:02and seeing that he does...
05:04I would just look in his eyes,
05:06and I would just see that there was such a private part of him
05:09that he was kind of keeping locked up.
05:11And it was just so easy to have compassion for him
05:17and to feel close to him.
05:20Russell, how did you and Tom find your chemistry?
05:23Because there's a lot of heat in this movie,
05:25and how did the two of you sort of connect?
05:27There is a lot of heat in this movie for myself and Tom.
05:30It's super hot.
05:32We found that intimacy quite quickly.
05:35It's just trust, isn't it?
05:37When you're connecting with another actor
05:39and you just have to trust each other to go there
05:41and to be vulnerable,
05:42because all you can be is vulnerable on screen.
05:45And if your scene partner is doing exactly the same thing,
05:48there's kind of a magic there
05:49which you can't actually describe what that is.
05:53But when that happens,
05:54it's the best feeling in the world when you're a performer.
05:56And I think both of us were so committed.
05:59We didn't want to let you down,
06:00but we were so committed to the world,
06:01and to the dialogue, and to the characters
06:04that we just went for it.
06:05And we had an amazing intimacy coordinator, Joey.
06:08They came in and what they did with the scenes,
06:10because they go quite graphic, don't they?
06:12Yeah, there's a lot of choreography.
06:14Yeah, and it was like poetic.
06:16It was very poetic, yeah.
06:17The way that it was choreographed,
06:18which I've never experienced before.
06:19And that really elevated the story
06:22and made us feel really comfortable
06:24because it's hard to do that as an actor,
06:26you know, just to suddenly know someone for like four days
06:28and then you're completely naked with each other.
06:30It's not normal.
06:31But we made it as normal.
06:33Oh, is it not normal?
06:34It's not, no.
06:35No.
06:35No, it's not.
06:37Just to let you know, that's not normal.
06:41But yeah, we really care about each other.
06:45We all had a brilliant time.
06:46So you've never, you never had worked
06:48with an intimacy coordinator before?
06:49Because back when you're doing looking,
06:50that wasn't something that-
06:51When I did looking, we had no intimacy coordinator,
06:53but we all cared and trusted each other.
06:55So we were able to do those scenes where we've,
06:57you know, we're doing lots of things
06:59to each other in bedrooms.
07:00But I never really thought about it.
07:03But, and I always was kind of anxious
07:05of intimacy coordinators,
07:06thinking that they're going to be something
07:08that might be a hindrance
07:09or might kind of break up the natural energy
07:12that you find in them scenes.
07:13But actually it's getting better and better.
07:16And this was a perfect example
07:17of how it can actually elevate
07:19and amplify the story more.
07:22Can you talk a little bit about shooting
07:23the greenhouse scene,
07:24which is, you know, one of the big scenes in the film?
07:26Yeah, it was hot because it's a greenhouse
07:30and we had lots of layers on
07:31because we're playing winter.
07:33I didn't even think of that.
07:34Yeah, so there was like,
07:35as soon as you walked in,
07:35it was just like sweat.
07:38I was wearing like shorts and a t-shirt.
07:39I know you were.
07:40You were really rubbing it in.
07:43I'm enjoying the heat.
07:46Yeah, it was, you know,
07:47when you film on location,
07:48it's incredibly immersive.
07:50As an actor, that's such a privilege
07:52because you haven't got to pretend.
07:54There's no set.
07:55Everything on this was done in location.
07:57The movie theater,
07:59when we had the greenhouse,
08:00when we were us, was it?
08:01We shot everywhere for like for like, didn't we?
08:03Everywhere, the house.
08:04We were in Syracuse itself.
08:06Normally you film like,
08:07that could have been in North London.
08:08It was all locations too
08:10that I visited as a child,
08:12you know, and where I had those initial feelings.
08:15So it was really therapeutic.
08:18Do you know what you brought,
08:18which I've learned from you,
08:19which was amazing,
08:20and especially in that greenhouse scene
08:21is that you play music into the scenes,
08:25which I'd never experienced before.
08:27And on the back of that,
08:28every single project I've done since,
08:29I've said we're having music for this.
08:30I love it, yeah.
08:31And because there's lots of scenes of us
08:33sort of walking in,
08:34closing the door,
08:34looking at each other.
08:36And you know,
08:36you can just hear the crunch of the floor
08:38or you can hear the camera people going,
08:39come forward a bit,
08:40go back a bit.
08:41You're like, hang on a minute.
08:42But with the music,
08:43you're instantly,
08:44it's like a fast track to emotion.
08:47And that's really,
08:48I've learned so much from that.
08:49And I think myself and Tom were like,
08:51this is groundbreaking.
08:52This is such a hack to cut into emotion quickly.
08:55Yeah, music was so key,
08:57I think, to the writing process as well.
08:59In another way to like place you in time,
09:01I was listening to a lot of 90s music,
09:03a lot of Lana Del Rey and a lot of...
09:06But that's not 90s music.
09:08What were we listening to from the 90s?
09:09Oh, REM, Cranberries.
09:11The Cranberries was in the greenhouse a lot.
09:13We felt like, yeah, it was Cranberries,
09:14you know, it's like fruit.
09:15When You're Gone by the Cranberries.
09:17Yeah, it was in the greenhouse.
09:18I made playlists for each of the scenes
09:21for me and the actors to like,
09:23so when I knew I would like film
09:24Tom's anxiety attack in the basement,
09:27I had tracks for that.
09:28I had tracks for the greenhouse.
09:30I didn't have tracks for the car
09:32and we needed tracks for the car.
09:33Like the scene, the big scene
09:36where we actually needed music.
09:38I like, for some reason, didn't have that.
09:40We had our breaths.
09:41I mean, we all had our breaths.
09:43Yeah, it was just the three of us like...
09:47It was a lot, but it was good.
09:48I feel really proud of those scenes.
09:50And I feel really proud of what the message that's...
09:52When you see the film,
09:53what comes out about safe sex
09:55and that period in history
09:56and what was happening with HIV and AIDS
09:59and how this is an intergenerational gay connection
10:03and the responsibility that Andrew has for him.
10:06And he could have been cruel, could have been cold.
10:08He could have just done whatever he wanted with him
10:10and discarded him.
10:11But in that moment, it's like he's educating him,
10:13look after yourself.
10:14And I think there's something incredibly beautiful about that
10:17because you don't really see that.
10:19You don't really see like the mechanisms
10:21of what it is to have sex in many films.
10:23And this really celebrates that,
10:24which I think is exciting.
10:26I think it's just like we kind of talked about
10:27it's what I wish I had in some ways.
10:29Like that kind of...
10:30Yeah, someone going,
10:31this is what you need to do, by the way.
10:33Oh, right. Okay.
10:34Yeah.
10:35There was a study where Gen Z said
10:36that they don't want to see sex in movies.
10:39Why is it important to have sex portrayed in film?
10:42Interesting.
10:44What was their reason for not wanting to see it?
10:45I think they just weren't interested
10:47in seeing sex portrayed on film.
10:48The whole of Gen Z?
10:49Not the entire, but the survey found
10:52that the majority of Gen Z isn't interested
10:54in watching sex in movies.
10:56How interesting.
10:57I do think the way that we approach sex
10:58in our movie is a little bit...
11:00It might be different.
11:00I don't know.
11:01I feel like there is an innocence to it in some ways.
11:03So maybe they'll respond differently to ours.
11:05I think it's beautiful because it's humanity.
11:09Yeah.
11:10And we're animals.
11:11And that's what we do.
11:12And that's pleasure.
11:14And it's a celebration of pleasure.
11:16And we've both denied ourself.
11:18These characters have denied themselves pleasure
11:21for so many years.
11:22And to have that connection
11:23to see them lost in what it is.
11:26Yeah.
11:26To finally feel that release.
11:28Yeah.
11:28For Lucas especially.
11:29For someone that's held...
11:31He's been at a wall.
11:32My character is so edited.
11:34But when you're able to be in that moment
11:35and share that,
11:37sex allows an audience
11:39and allows the characters to really portray
11:43that innocence of what it is to want pleasure.
11:46Yeah.
11:46And I think also that in the context
11:48of a narrative film,
11:50that it's not necessarily...
11:52The visual is obviously a huge part of it.
11:53But also ultimately what you're trying to convey
11:55to the audience are feelings.
11:57And so to me,
11:58that seems the most important thing
12:00to encounter all these different filmmakers
12:03and actors' ideas of all the different feelings
12:06that come into things
12:07and how an encounter can begin one way
12:10and end another.
12:11Which I don't think that you get
12:13in any other representation.
12:14I think it's usually pretty...
12:16It's really vulnerable to see that.
12:19But also the reason we watch these films
12:22is because you want to connect
12:23to that vulnerability and see yourself
12:26at your most vulnerable.
12:27And when you see sex scenes,
12:29they're incredibly vulnerable.
12:31You know, unless it's porn.
12:32Yeah.
12:34I mean, sometimes I could be vulnerable in porn.
12:36And don't...
12:36Right, right.
12:36I mean, don't...
12:37Yeah, don't...
12:38Don't troll me for that.
12:39Yeah.
12:39It's very vulnerable.
12:40It's vulnerable.
12:42All sex is vulnerable.
12:43Right.
12:44Point me on that.
12:45Yeah.
12:45That's a different conversation.
12:47Right.
12:47Maria, there's so much that happens in the scene
12:49where you and Tom's character dance.
12:51I feel like that says so much
12:52about the two of your characters.
12:54Can you talk a little bit about landing that
12:56and dancing with Tom in the film?
12:57Yeah.
12:58Well, that was actually...
12:59Dancing with Tom was...
13:00Actually, that's how we got to know one another.
13:03Is we had a day of rehearsal
13:05and we learned some dance moves
13:09from our respective generations.
13:13Right.
13:13And which actually was so great for me
13:15because I was learning 70s,
13:20and the muscularity of it
13:22and the awkwardness.
13:23And it was so funny
13:24because it actually reminded me
13:25of the way my mom jerks me around
13:27when I dance with her,
13:28which was such a nice connection.
13:30But yeah.
13:32I mean, I feel like the story of the dance
13:36was wanting to be close,
13:39recognizing that there's a rift
13:41between the two of us
13:42and seeing that there's something
13:43that's unspoken and similar in a way
13:48to any kind of physical intimacy
13:51that knowing that the language isn't working.
13:54And so maybe touch is a way
13:57that we can be closer.
13:59And so a way for me to see him
14:02and know that he's struggling with something
14:06and that I can hold him.
14:08And maybe I don't know what it is,
14:09but maybe that will help.
14:10And that he and his character
14:11does the same for Marie
14:13because she's nursing her sick husband.
14:16And so it's just a way for us
14:18to be with one another
14:19when we can't articulate what it is.
14:23What discussions did you have with Tom
14:25about sort of the physical look of the character?
14:27I know in Hunger Games, he was blonde.
14:31Does he dye his hair for the...
14:32I mean, is he brunette in this movie?
14:33The natural hair color.
14:34Oh, his natural hair color.
14:35Yeah, yeah.
14:36And the tattoo and sort of...
14:37Can you talk a little bit about
14:38sort of him becoming
14:39sort of the physicality of the character?
14:41Oh, tattoo gay.
14:42Oh my gosh, I'm surprised.
14:43The makeup artist, Cassandra and I
14:44called it tattoo gay
14:46because it happened so last...
14:47We were like, Tom and I were like,
14:49he has a tattoo.
14:50And it was like a week before or something.
14:52And she was like, okay.
14:54But that was supposed to be the Roman numerals
14:56of his grandfather's birthday.
14:58His grandfather was a police officer.
15:00That's how we kind of landed on that.
15:03And in terms of his look,
15:04I worked a lot with our costume designer,
15:06Caden O'Keefe, who is incredible.
15:08I actually started working with Caden
15:10and the music supervisors first on the film.
15:13And Caden, for all the characters,
15:16a lot of them are wearing layers
15:17and it has a lot of obviously deep meaning.
15:20But with Tom, like that blue coat,
15:21Caden custom designed it himself.
15:25And there's like a plaid in the back
15:27that's just kind of like lightly exposed,
15:29which is like kind of supposed to symbolize
15:30what he's hiding.
15:32Tom was very...
15:35He was very open,
15:35but when it came to costumes,
15:37he really had a good sense
15:39of what his character would wear.
15:40And that was super helpful
15:41for Caden and I as well.
15:44And how did you come up
15:45with the idea of police officers
15:46entrapping closeted gay men?
15:48Was that something that you came across
15:51like reading about sort of the period?
15:52How did the idea come to you?
15:54Yeah, the idea of police officers
15:56entrapping men,
15:57I read an article in the LA Times in 2016.
16:02There was a sting operation
16:03in Long Beach, California,
16:04where police officers were undercover
16:07and flirting with men using no words
16:10and getting them to expose themselves.
16:14Around that time, I was coming out as well.
16:16So it kind of just shocked me
16:18that that was still happening
16:19around that time.
16:20And then my brother was becoming
16:21a police officer at that time as well.
16:24So it was like those two things
16:26just led to me creating the character,
16:28I suppose.
16:31Yeah, that court,
16:32that instance in Long Beach,
16:34a man sued the city of Long Beach
16:35for entrapment and he won.
16:37You can like read the court documents online.
16:39It's very fascinating.
16:41Yeah.
16:42It's been 20 years
16:43since Brokeback Mountain came out,
16:44which many people see as a very pivotal time
16:47in queer storytelling.
16:48How do you feel gay storytelling
16:51in movies has changed since then?
16:52And Russell, do you get offered
16:54a lot of roles where you're playing gay characters
16:56or sort of do you wish that there were more?
16:58I always think there should be more
17:00queer stories being told.
17:02I think the only way we can understand humanity
17:04is to be shown humanity.
17:07And we need to see more visibility
17:09for queer people,
17:10especially in the current climate
17:11is getting more and more terrifying, really.
17:14And I've always been drawn to that.
17:15Myself as a gay man,
17:16I've always looked for queer content
17:18and queer heroes.
17:20And there have been many
17:21and there should be more.
17:22But I feel like from that time
17:25in Brokeback Mountain,
17:26that was a seminal film for me.
17:27That was, I mean,
17:28I found that incredibly inspiring
17:30and exciting and like sexy.
17:34And you didn't really see a lot of that.
17:36But I think, you know,
17:37incrementally there's been lots
17:38of incredible stories being told.
17:40And this is your man here.
17:42This is his first, you know,
17:43written and directed.
17:44And this story,
17:45you're going to bring so many things out.
17:47And I feel like it's just,
17:49I don't know if this answers the question,
17:50but I just feel like it's,
17:51what I've experienced is just
17:52there's more queer stories now,
17:54which is really helpful.
17:55But when I was coming out,
17:56there wasn't really a ton,
17:57but there was a show called Looking.
18:00And I remember that was my window
18:02into what my life might be like.
18:06And it was exciting and beautiful.
18:08And Russell was in it.
18:10And so I think that was so crucial
18:13for me as a queer person,
18:14but also as a storyteller to feel
18:16like I could have a space
18:18to maybe tell a story
18:19that I wanted to tell.
18:20That show changed my life
18:22even though I was in it.
18:23Yeah.
18:23That would have been,
18:24that's one of the only things
18:25that I can watch as a fan.
18:27I'm in it, but I can watch it
18:28and I'm obsessed with the world
18:29and the characters.
18:30And it actually changed me
18:32being in that show.
18:33I bet.
18:34Yeah. And being with Andrew Haig
18:35and being with all that cast.
18:36How did it change your life?
18:38It made me more confident
18:39in who I was.
18:41It made me feel,
18:43I have such pride for that show.
18:45And so many people,
18:46now you talk about Gen Z,
18:47there's so many people now
18:47that are discovering it,
18:48you know, 10 years later
18:50that are going,
18:50what is the show we need more?
18:52And I feel absolute like gratitude
18:55and a real privilege
18:56that I was part of that.
18:57It's a seminal show.
19:00And the fact that all we can do
19:02as artists is put work out there
19:04and hope that we connect with people.
19:05And the fact that Carmen
19:06has connected with that show
19:08and that changed you
19:09is so inspiring.
19:10The fact that, you know,
19:11you saw Angels in America
19:12and I played Joe Pitt
19:14in the British version,
19:14you watched that
19:15and then you had me
19:16in your mind for Andrew.
19:17It's like all we can hope to do
19:19is put stuff out there
19:20and be vulnerable
19:21and hope that it connects.
19:23And then people want to create
19:25more things for you and others.
19:27Speaking of the current times
19:29we're living in,
19:29how does it feel to have this movie
19:31come out while Trump is president
19:32and the attack on the LGBTQ community?
19:36I just think it's more important.
19:38It's so important now,
19:40more than ever.
19:40Yeah.
19:42Yeah, that's, I don't know.
19:45All I can do is,
19:48I think Greta Gerwig said,
19:49or someone, I listened to a podcast
19:51where she's like,
19:51I won't be able to save lives
19:52but I can write it down.
19:54And I think that was something
19:56that got me through writing this
19:58because you can get so bogged down
20:00with all of the negativity
20:02and like the bad news that we hear.
20:03But all you can do is like
20:05look out for yourself and your friends
20:07and the people you love
20:08and create work
20:09that hopefully inspires people, I suppose.
20:11Yeah.
20:12Is there anything else you want people
20:13to know about this movie?
20:17It was a labor of love, truly.
20:21You know, I wrote it to be set
20:22in my hometown in Syracuse, New York.
20:24And growing up there,
20:25I didn't always feel like I totally belonged.
20:27But making it there
20:29and seeing the community rally behind it,
20:31I think was,
20:33I just have an extreme feeling of hope.
20:36And I hope that that's what people walk away with
20:38after they watch the movie.
20:40I think they will.
20:41And just to close,
20:42we partnered with Audible for this studio.
20:44And so I wanted to ask all three of you
20:46about your relationship to audio storytelling.
20:48And do you have any sense
20:49of the future of audio storytelling
20:51and where it will go?
20:53Well, I love audio storytelling
20:56because of how much of your imagination
20:59it requires from the actors
21:00and from the audience.
21:02And I remember a long time ago
21:07when I was reading to my daughter,
21:09I was talking with someone
21:10and they were saying that,
21:11you know, it's not even just the story
21:13that a child likes to hear,
21:15but it's the vibrations of your voice
21:17in their bones.
21:18And I feel really similarly
21:20about having the ear things in and listening.
21:24And that it's so much about,
21:25like you were saying about connecting
21:27with another human being.
21:28And in some ways,
21:29that feels almost more possible
21:31through storytelling,
21:33you know, where you're just using
21:34your voice in that way.
21:37Yeah, I mean,
21:38I think it's incredibly intimate
21:39way of receiving stories.
21:42As an actor, I love performing them.
21:44I think it's incredible.
21:46I think it is the future.
21:47And I think it's a real,
21:49it's almost meditative.
21:50It's an escape.
21:51And from all the noise,
21:52we have so much noise
21:53and we're so used to screens.
21:54What an amazing thing
21:55to take yourself off
21:57and just let your head be the screen,
21:59let your imagination be the screen
22:00and let this noise guide you through that.
22:03I think we need more of that.
22:04And we're going to make plain clothes
22:06into an audio book.
22:07Yeah, we talked about it over there.
22:08We talked about it.
22:11He's like, really?
22:12If they offer it to you, yeah.
22:13I'll do it.
22:15We're all available.
22:16Yeah.
22:17You know so much about writing this movie.
22:18It's like I was alone in a room
22:20and I would turn to audio books
22:21as a way to feel less alone, to be honest.
22:24And I feel like, I don't know,
22:26as an artist, it's extremely helpful.
22:28Yeah.
22:29Thank you guys very much.
22:30Can't wait for the world to see this movie.
22:31Have fun at your premieres tonight.