Today’s most notable creatives join Variety at Sundance for exclusive in-depth conversations across various entertainment mediums, presented by Audible.
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00:00And I think there's also something really sensitive and difficult about seeing someone
00:05that you love go through something and knowing them more than anyone else and trying to figure
00:10out when is the right time to pull them out of it, but also enough space to leave them
00:14in it, because that transition period of healing is necessary.
00:30Thank you guys so much for coming to join us.
00:35Thank you for having us.
00:37Congratulations.
00:38Eva, I've heard so much about this leading into the festival.
00:39Really?
00:40Yes, I have.
00:41It's so great to hear.
00:42Is it any pressure?
00:43I mean, as a writer, director, it's not like, it's like...
00:47You know what?
00:48I'm so happy to be here.
00:49Yeah.
00:50And of course, I'm stressed out constantly over everything in my life, and this is actually
00:53a joyful spot.
00:55Pressure is a privilege.
00:56Yes.
00:57From what I've heard.
00:58Wow.
00:59That's what one of my favorite pitchers says.
01:01Oh my God.
01:02In baseball.
01:03In baseball.
01:04Who is that?
01:05Max Scherzer.
01:06I thought he said pictures.
01:07Yeah, like a movie.
01:08I was like, wow.
01:09Max Scherzer says that.
01:10What team?
01:11The Mets.
01:12He was on the Mets.
01:13He was on the Mets.
01:14Oh my God.
01:15I'm so lost, but I love that you're on the Mets.
01:16Same.
01:17We all are.
01:18That's...
01:19I heard bowl, and I went...
01:20So I know that obviously this was a big sort of tonal transition for you as someone who
01:24is sort of native to comedy, and you know, it's a sensitive, but I think very necessary
01:29So can you just tell us a little bit about the conceit?
01:31Yes.
01:32I was making comedy videos, and then I...
01:36It's a really personal story, and I wanted to write something that felt tonally true
01:44to my life, and I, in the process of trying to write this, like fell in love with film,
01:51and discovered it kind of like during COVID, and never went to film school or anything,
01:58so I was kind of giving myself this education that I didn't have, and I wanted to make it
02:06as a film because it just felt like the right medium for the story I wanted to tell.
02:10I was really wanting to make this non-linear structure that was sort of the thing that
02:17I kept coming back to.
02:18I wanted the film to...
02:20The structure of the film to support what the film's about, which is about trying to
02:25heal, and I felt that if I can create a film that has the form of trying to heal as well
02:32as the content of trying to heal, that's what I was going after.
02:34So it's a more serious subject.
02:37It's a more personal subject than any of the comedy I was making.
02:41It kind of happened slowly, like I didn't really say, like, oh, I'm now going to be
02:45a filmmaker.
02:46It was more, naturally, this story led me to taking on these different roles in the
02:51project and then to make the film.
02:55So this is a story about trauma, and many films that deal with that subject matter tend
02:59to focus on the event itself and not the aftermath.
03:02Why was it important for you to do the latter?
03:04I definitely wanted to tell a story about trying to heal and not the violence itself
03:09because that was what I felt like...
03:12That was a film I needed at the time and couldn't find, and I feel like I've had a lot of experiences
03:20of watching films that depict this kind of violence, and they've been very triggering
03:25because they're depicted really accurately or it's just really violent.
03:31The film, I wanted to make it about trying to put yourself back together because it was
03:39the part where everyone looked away.
03:42This character's alone once the actual thing happens.
03:47There's all these years of, like, you're stuck and everyone else is moving forward,
03:52and that was the time that I wanted to make the film about.
03:56You developed this during COVID, right?
03:58So I mean, was that helpful dramatically?
04:02I think I definitely slowed down at that time.
04:09I think it was about kind of looking inward and finally having enough time and distance
04:16to write the film I wanted to write versus sort of...
04:19I'd written bits and pieces, but it was a little too soon for me, and just the timeline
04:25of when I could write it happened to be that year, or 2021, I think.
04:31I wonder, sort of moving through this creative process, how do you feel about isolation versus
04:37finding community?
04:38Because I think a lot of these instances, they say, find support groups or volunteer,
04:43all that kind of stuff.
04:45Is there sort of a side you've erred on as what the most helpful was to you personally
04:49or for this project?
04:50I mean, the film is primarily about a best friendship that basically saves your life.
04:57The film is about that kind of love and that kind of support.
05:00So I also wanted to offer an example of how someone can listen really, really well.
05:08And that is also the reason for the film, is the film can, I think, toe the line of
05:16having funny moments and also pain because of this relationship.
05:22And that's the reason the film, I think, has an element of hope to it, is you can find
05:27someone who can hear you and that is life-saving.
05:32Absolutely.
05:33I mean, talk to me about your character and how it fits into that dynamic.
05:38Yeah, I mean, Liddy is, I feel like in kind of, God, I feel like it's like a shape.
05:46They do this together for a really long time.
05:49And then because you grow up and life and they kind of do this, but they're always doing
05:53this in their hearts.
05:56But there's this splitting apart that I think is very normal.
06:01I've had so many friendships that you spend every single day together and like absolutely
06:06no shade, you know, your best friend meets somebody and moves away and you have to shift
06:14around that.
06:15And that navigation of that was really interesting to me.
06:19And I think there's also something really sensitive and difficult about seeing someone
06:24that you love go through something and knowing them more than anyone else and trying to figure
06:29out when is the right time to pull them out of it, but also enough space to leave them
06:33in it.
06:35That transition period of healing is like necessary.
06:39Yeah.
06:40Yes.
06:41Do you know what I mean?
06:42I tell you this to a lot of my friends because we have so much of a thing about like moving.
06:46You've got to like, if you're sad, you've got to go for a walk, which please go for
06:49a walk.
06:50But like sitting in the shit of it is actually as important as the going to therapy and the
06:56thing and the thing and the thing is like, and I think that's where Liddy kind of comes
07:02in as someone who knows her and is watchful of her.
07:06And sometimes you just need to know that you're being watched.
07:08Yeah.
07:09Do you know what I mean?
07:10That's really, really smart.
07:11Like just that someone is there being like, hey, I see you.
07:15I'm not going anywhere.
07:16Right.
07:17I'm over here.
07:18That kind of thing.
07:19So it just felt like that was what.
07:20Yeah.
07:21Those are real stakes too.
07:22Yeah.
07:23You want to care for people, especially if they might not be in a position to care for
07:26themselves.
07:27But yeah.
07:28How do you walk that line?
07:29Yeah.
07:30I think it's really important to say I need my life too and I need to go do things for
07:34me.
07:35Yeah.
07:36So.
07:37Yeah.
07:38Both things.
07:39Yeah.
07:40A hundred.
07:41I'm not sure.
07:42It's funny.
07:43You just said that.
07:44I think I May Destroy You does a really good job with that too.
07:45I agree.
07:46It's a beautiful piece.
07:47Yeah.
07:48Lucas, you have I think a really interesting character too because I think he kind of presents
07:49one way and then sort of becomes something else, right?
07:52Interesting.
07:53Yeah.
07:54It just seems like.
07:55You don't know about that.
07:56I'm like, dude.
07:57Cool.
07:58I didn't know.
07:59Weirdo neighbor who then actually becomes a very.
08:01Yeah.
08:02Very valuable or safe space.
08:03I'll take that.
08:04Okay.
08:05Yeah.
08:06I didn't.
08:07I didn't.
08:08The press notes said that, by the way.
08:09Not me.
08:10Yeah.
08:11Yeah.
08:12I'm not sure exactly what to say.
08:13I guess.
08:14I just love the character.
08:15Yeah.
08:16Well, tell us about him.
08:17I think.
08:18Yeah.
08:19I think it's one thing.
08:20Like often.
08:21One of the common themes I feel when I read something that speaks to me.
08:22It just sparks my imagination.
08:23So I remember telling Ava that I feel like one of the things that we don't see in this
08:24movie that I imagine.
08:25Is that Gavin is like really loves opera.
08:26And like sings opera.
08:27No.
08:28That's the sweetest thing in the world.
08:29Like.
08:30Which is like not in the movie.
08:31But like.
08:32There's just like.
08:33There was something in Ava's writing that was always like.
08:34There was just.
08:35There was so much more.
08:36Which.
08:37Which.
08:38You just need.
08:39You need there to be so.
08:40Like at the end of the day.
08:41You only see this much of a character in a film.
08:42But like.
08:43You.
08:44You.
08:45You.
08:46You.
08:47You.
08:48You.
08:49You.
08:50You.
08:51You.
08:52You.
08:53You.
08:54You.
08:55You.
08:56You.
08:57You.
08:58You need.
08:59But like you.
09:00You want to have.
09:01Just.
09:02A whole world that's happening off camera.
09:03To.
09:04To inform what's happening.
09:05So.
09:06I'm happy to hear.
09:07It sounds like the character goes places.
09:08Which.
09:09I wasn't even aware of.
09:10You.
09:11Did that.
09:12Yeah.
09:13I guess.
09:14Yeah.
09:15No.
09:16I did.
09:17I honestly didn't know.
09:18Well you do now.
09:19I was.
09:20We were just.
09:21Meet you.
09:22We were having so much fun.
09:23Fingers crossed.
09:24Well, Eva, I would just love to know, too,
09:27obviously, it being personal on both a historical
09:31and then also creative level, what kind of,
09:34I just am always so curious about the kind of conversations
09:36you have with actors, sort of not just for authenticity,
09:39but you're really opening up such a big part
09:41of your own inner world,
09:43and how much time did you put into that, how much?
09:48I mean, they're really, really good actors,
09:51so I think a person's dream is that the script
09:55says everything, it says a lot,
09:57so them getting a script and responding to it,
10:01to me, was like a pact of you understand
10:06what this means to me, and you understand
10:08that you're a part of it now,
10:10so there's kind of like an unspoken side of it,
10:12like, okay, you are responding to the script,
10:15so we are aligned, there's a connection there,
10:19and then, you know, for each of them, it was different.
10:22I think it was really about just feeling safe together,
10:26or getting comfortable together,
10:27and we both, like, we did that in different ways,
10:29but yeah, they were very, very down to come
10:37and give themselves to this project,
10:41and they're very good actors, so they came
10:44and had these full people ready.
10:48They were, so there wasn't so much talking about my life,
10:54because it's really not my life,
10:55it's a character I wrote's life,
10:57so we're all kind of, we're building our people together
11:03and making them feel real together,
11:05just as an afterwood who didn't write it, I hope.
11:08Yeah, absolutely.
11:09So what do you think is next for you as a filmmaker?
11:12You, you are crazy.
11:14I mean, well, you should probably try comedy.
11:17No, I mean, I'm in love with this project,
11:20and we're still here, and it's still my life,
11:23and I think it also, like, this process
11:25has made me completely fall in love with filmmaking,
11:27and you'll have to kill me to stop me.
11:30Ooh.
11:30I didn't mean to burst your sorry baby bubble,
11:32you should enjoy it.
11:33We'll never do that.
11:34I want to have just a little bit of fun before we go,
11:36so Naomi, I became, like, I just kind of fell back in love
11:40with reading, and Thursday Murder Club was like,
11:43I actually think that's going to be a very,
11:44big title for Netflix, what was that experience like?
11:46It's done, right?
11:47It was really, yeah, it's done,
11:48I had to finish it in the summertime, it was really fun.
11:50And like, isn't it Judi Dench, or?
11:52Oh, it's Helen Mirren, Helen Mirren.
11:55Oh, you're just forgiving me.
11:56No, no.
11:56Forgive me, queens, I'm sorry.
11:57Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:58Yeah, it was really fun, it felt like I learned a lot,
12:03I mean, like, the main cast, Ben Kingsley,
12:06Pierce Brosnan, Celia Imri, like, they're all just really,
12:09like, they've been doing it for a second.
12:11Yeah.
12:12So, I was just watching them, yeah.
12:13Are there any, like, pearls of wisdom
12:14that you'll carry with you forever, like?
12:16Any pearls of wisdom?
12:17Don't trust God.
12:18Oh, there are a few, but I...
12:19Don't trust God.
12:20Do it.
12:21Don't trust, but there were definitely a few,
12:23there was, like, a few around, like, loads of things.
12:25Helen was like, you must invest.
12:27That was something, she was like, invest, invest, invest.
12:32And I was like, that's actually a really good point,
12:33because, like, yeah, like, what am I going to, like,
12:37the thing was, like, I was like,
12:38I was like, I'm not going to, like,
12:39what am I going to, like, the thing was, as well, I was...
12:42Making money?
12:43Mm-hmm.
12:44Oh.
12:45Invest in someone.
12:46Yeah.
12:46Like, invest.
12:48That part too, but, like, I was just watching these,
12:50like, titans who are, you know, mid-70s to early 80s
12:55and are so energetic and so excited to still be working.
13:03And if anything, I was like, that's an aspiration to me,
13:07because they've been working before my age and, like,
13:11and I'll keep going, and I just loved it.
13:14Big, big, mid-budget feature films.
13:16That's really hard, especially now.
13:18It's impossible to do.
13:19It's really hard.
13:20Very excited.
13:21Do you have any idea when that might release?
13:22Absolutely.
13:23Can you imagine?
13:24No kidding.
13:25When you break the news?
13:26Tomorrow.
13:26Tomorrow.
13:27Surprise, surprise.
13:28I have no idea.
13:29Lucas, I don't know what the phenomenon was,
13:32but I just feel like it's so much more in my timeline now
13:35than it was when you actually did the production,
13:36but your broke back with Mike Fess.
13:39Yes, exactly.
13:40Like, no, why, why?
13:41No, no, no, that's like, I'm like,
13:42good enough, we get it.
13:44Like, say less.
13:44No, I'm just like, no.
13:46Say more.
13:46Say more.
13:47That's true.
13:48But like, it's just been, especially,
13:51well, obviously, with Mike and Challengers.
13:52True.
13:53But like, that was such an amazing moment
13:55that people find so much joy in now.
13:56Would you, are you, was there any conversation
13:58about doing that on Broadway?
14:00I think there was, but I think for me,
14:03I was so excited about doing it in London.
14:05One, because they don't, like, in London,
14:07like, I feel like I'm like, in the country,
14:09I'm like a country bumpkin in London.
14:11Like, I'm like, I just sound, like, me now,
14:14I'm like, I feel like I go to London,
14:16and to their ears, they can't tell
14:18that I'm just a New York, kid from New York.
14:21Whereas, like, if you do it in New York,
14:22they're like, I guess what I'm saying
14:25is what I loved about doing it in London
14:27was I got to go to another world
14:30to talk, to do a piece about another world,
14:33and New York's my home,
14:34and I think it was just, like,
14:36I liked being able to just get lost
14:39in two different places, you know what I mean?
14:41So.
14:42Did you like the West End?
14:43I love the West End.
14:44It's cool, innit?
14:45Except, I do want, I want to go back to London
14:47not doing a play, so I can just, like, be in the city.
14:49Come just visit me, just hang out with me.
14:51What, come?
14:52Come, just come to London.
14:53Everyone should be coming to London anyway.
14:54Discuss investment portfolio.
14:56Yeah.
14:57High risk, low risk, I'm learning.
15:01So, we are here, very natural transition for this one,
15:04we are here today with Audible,
15:05so I'm just curious, are you guys, like, into podcasts,
15:08and, like, how do you feel about audio as a storytelling medium?
15:11I'm subscribed to Audible.
15:12I have tons of Audible books.
15:14I have the thing where I, like, can only have two.
15:18Oh, okay, like, the thing, okay, yeah.
15:20I need to pay more.
15:21Yeah, I'm, I don't, this is weird,
15:24I don't, I listen to podcasts more than I listen to music.
15:27Really?
15:29Me too.
15:29Yeah.
15:30What are your go-tos?
15:31Oh, gosh, where's my phone?
15:33I mean, literally, it's, right now,
15:35I'm really obsessed with Diary of a CEO.
15:39I used to love How to Fail, I think it's called.
15:42It's like business?
15:43No, it was like, it's like talking to people
15:46who we admire, talk about their failures.
15:48Love that.
15:49Love that.
15:50We should always be doing that.
15:51Which is so cool, and then Risk,
15:54Risk podcast is a storytelling podcast,
15:56just, like, normal people, different themes.
15:58It's kind of like the moth.
16:00I literally, like, anyone who wants to,
16:02like, I have a library.
16:04I've got true crime in there,
16:06self-development in there, storytelling, comedy.
16:09Okay, the only one I don't listen to is the sports stuff.
16:11I'm not into that.