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On this episode of the Bob Ryan & Jeff Goodman NBA Podcast, Bob Ryan and Gary Tanguay discuss all the biggest stories around the NBA. As the Thunder battle the Cavs, what does that tell Celtics fans? Is the C's roster truly the best in the league? Plus, is it too early for MVP talk? All that, and much more!

0:00 - Intro
2:30 - Three-point shot debate
6:15 - Celtics' performance issues
10:40 - MVP talk begins
16:07 - Giannis
19:10 - Bradley Beal
21:58 - Bill Walton's impact
27:10 - Jokic

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Transcript
00:00Everybody, it's time for the Bob Ryan Gary Tangway pod here on CLNS Media brought to
00:23you by Price Picks, the exclusive daily fantasy partner of the CLNS Media Network.
00:28Pick more, pick less, always with Price Picks.
00:32All right, Bob, we're going to start with the premier teams in the NBA right now, Cleveland
00:36and OKC.
00:37Your thoughts on the game, and I think you liked it because it was a return to yesteryear.
00:42I was looking forward to the game to see the matchup and to see, you know, it just should
00:49have been a good game.
00:50Turned out it was worth, it lived up to the hype.
00:53It was one of the two best games I've seen this year, and I really enjoyed the game
00:58as a basketball fan.
00:59But of course, you know what I love most about the game?
01:02It was basketball as I remember it.
01:05It was 1980s.
01:06There was no shot clock.
01:09It was two handed set shots.
01:11No.
01:12No, and center jump after every basket too, don't forget that.
01:16You know, people don't realize that was the way basketball was played for a long time,
01:19you know.
01:20I've been to the 30s and so well, anyway, it was a wonderful game.
01:25It was a great demonstration of the product.
01:27Everyone should be proud.
01:28The league should be beaming.
01:30And what I love the most is I got some numbers.
01:32The Cavaliers won at 129-122.
01:36There was a lot of back and forth until the very end.
01:38The Cavaliers shot 47 for 90, out of which 59% of their shots were twos and 42% of their
01:50shots were threes.
01:51They were 15 for 36 on threes, 42 for 54, 59% from the floor on twos.
02:03The losing Thunder were 48 for 90 overall, 11 for 31, not that good, a three point, 6-7
02:17percentage, 63% two point shooting.
02:21You know, the game was not dominated by the three, the three was part of the deal.
02:27And that's the way I'd like to see it.
02:30But you know, I just think it was, I'd like to showcase that game, you know, and then
02:35show that this is basketball.
02:37And I just thought it was a really, really good game.
02:41But I just love the breakdown.
02:43It's a very acceptable level of ratio balance between the twos and the threes.
02:50Who do you think is the better team, or do we know yet?
02:54We don't know yet.
02:55First of all, OKC is playing, and I'm guilty myself of saying, oh, they're playing without
03:01Holmgren, which is true.
03:02They're also playing lately without Caruso.
03:04And you know, Alex Caruso has turned out to be one of the more interesting adjunct players
03:09in the NBA, a defensive specialist who can make an occasional three, and he's not playing
03:15right now.
03:16Holmgren is a premier rim protector.
03:19Their best is way down the road.
03:25Their best is yet to come, to borrow from Cy Coleman and Tony Bennett.
03:29So I think there's nothing definitive that we make out of this in terms of people want
03:35to make a big deal out of, no, I'm not worried about how this game reflects what's going
03:39to happen in April or May.
03:40I'm just happy to watch a game in January that was enjoyable, that was basketball as
03:44it should be, that was well worth your two and a half hours, and it was, and I'm really
03:50pleased with it.
03:51Who's better?
03:52Right now, if they had a seven-game series, I'm pretty sure Cleveland would win, all right?
03:58Right now, given the composition of the OKC roster.
04:01But presumably, this will not be the roster if and when they meet in June.
04:06If they do, I like, I hope everybody's healthy, as always, and Holmgren is an integral part
04:12of the deal.
04:13I think they're playing very well, surviving very well without him.
04:17But much like the Celtics and the Brazilians last year, and even this year, you know, they
04:21got to have that guy to be, you know, to be everything they want to be.
04:26When we take a look at how the Celtics have been too lenient on the three, and you look
04:31at the way these two teams played, I wonder if the three-point shot is becoming a lazy
04:36man's version of basketball.
04:39Very good point.
04:40I think it's, you know, it just seems to be given, that's a great way of putting it.
04:45I like that.
04:46You know, to me, I call it the Darryl Morification of basketball.
04:49It's simply the idea that three's better than two, period, you know, and, you know, you
04:54do the math, and, you know, obviously, I understand what they're saying with that.
05:00But my problem is not just the aesthetics, it is the aesthetics.
05:04You don't want basketball to turn into a three-point shooting contest, number one.
05:08But number two, the efficiency, once again, I'm going to repeat, Cleveland in winning
05:13this game shot 59% on twos, 59.
05:16Right.
05:17OKC in losing shot 63, and out of a game that was 129-122, I can, you know, I'm never going
05:27to get rid of the three.
05:28No, you're not.
05:29But I think what teams need to realize, unless you're the Golden State Warriors, is don't
05:33become enamored with it.
05:36Don't become drunk with the three-point shot, inebriated, because as we saw with the Celtics
05:41when they played OKC, the way they played in the first half gave them the lead, which
05:46they only had, they shot like 13 threes in the first half.
05:50It was ridiculous.
05:51Then they shot terribly.
05:53Their shot selection in the second half was terrible.
05:57So I look at it like if you come down, and instead of working the offense, moving your
06:03feet, cutting to the basket, and you just hoist up a three, it's laziness.
06:07It's just laziness.
06:10I like that.
06:11Now let me throw this one at you.
06:13The last time two teams in the NBA met with comparable records at this point in the season
06:21was in 1972.
06:24It was the Bucs and the Lakers, and more interestingly, and really interesting, the Bucs won the game
06:32and it ended the Lakers' 33-game winning streak.
06:37That's the game that ended their winning streak on January 9th, 1972, a Sunday.
06:43But 72, the Knicks won the title, right?
06:46No, no.
06:47The Knicks won in 70 and 73.
06:51This is the year the Lakers won.
06:52Oh, the Lakers won.
06:54And gave Jerry West his only ring.
06:56That's right.
06:57Okay.
06:58And they had the 33-game winning streak that started in November and ended on January 9th
07:04to the Bucs.
07:05And they wound up meeting in the playoffs, and the following year, the Bucs beat them,
07:11but not this year.
07:12So anyway, that's a little interesting history.
07:16I wish more people had pointed that out.
07:17I thought it was fun.
07:18But the starting centers in that game were Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
07:25Holy cow.
07:26Two of the three, two-thirds of the holy trinity of centers in the history of the NBA.
07:31So there we go.
07:32I remember I had an Army meeting that day.
07:35I couldn't see the game.
07:36I was pissed off.
07:37Your memory, your recall is amazing, Bob.
07:39It really is.
07:40Wow.
07:41My God.
07:42I also missed Walton's 21 for 22 because I had an Army meeting on Monday night.
07:48Did you ever get a rank?
07:49Oh, no.
07:50I was just a private.
07:51Did I get a spec?
07:52No.
07:53Maybe I did.
07:54I don't know.
07:55I don't even remember.
07:56Private Robert Ryan.
07:57Yeah.
07:58Anyway, sir, while we have to admit that the crème de la crème right now is OKC in Cleveland,
08:08does this change our mind on any possible adjustments for the Celtics down the road?
08:13I think that one thing was Cleveland, in that game, got big contributions from two bench
08:20guys and Ty Jerome.
08:27I've been pompously saying the Celtics have the best one to five, best one to eight, and
08:32the best one to 10.
08:33Well, at the moment, that's not true, not clearly.
08:37They don't have the best one to eight at the moment.
08:40And Cleveland is making a case for that.
08:43Very definitely.
08:44Yeah.
08:45I think if we don't know by now, if the fans don't realize by now that Cleveland should
08:51be taken for real.
08:52Oh, yeah.
08:53Oh, no.
08:54There's no doubt.
08:55And they're just too stubborn.
08:56You know what?
08:57They should be taken for real.
08:59I wonder if the Celtics, because everyone agreed with you, I mean, you weren't out on
09:04a limb saying they had the best one through eight or one through nine.
09:07I wonder if, right now, they don't have the best one through eight or nine because the
09:11first five are not playing that well.
09:13Well, I don't know.
09:16I mean, you can see individually, maybe there's a little bit of inconsistency with some people.
09:23But it's really, like, hey, the number one, the big guys, player of the month, right?
09:29And then, you know, you've got putting up career numbers.
09:34Mr. Tatum, Brown's had some huge games.
09:37We've kind of, we've already decided that they figured everything out, that they worked
09:41together.
09:42But here's the thing, Bob, and I'm just, I'm nitpicking here, you know, Tatum put up great
09:49numbers player of the month, but when they won the championship, his numbers were different.
09:53It wasn't about him scoring.
09:54No, I know.
09:55Well, we can't have, you know, we've got to be fair to the guy, you know, we.
09:58Oh, you can't have it both ways.
09:59No, no, no.
10:00I'm not knocking Tatum.
10:01I am.
10:02No, I am not knocking Tatum.
10:04It's just interesting, though, you know, how it works out is that they win the title when
10:08he's not shooting well.
10:09Now he's putting up great numbers and they're struggling a little bit.
10:12I don't know if there's any correlation or not.
10:14I think overall, the team has just been a little lazy.
10:18That's what I really think.
10:19Oh, yeah, they.
10:20They are lazy.
10:21They've been lazy and undisciplined on offense and defense, on defense, because I just think
10:26that they seem to play a few times in games when they they think they're going to outscore
10:29the other team, period.
10:30Right.
10:31And that's really it right there.
10:32You just nailed it.
10:34They think they're going to outscore the other team.
10:36That's got to end.
10:37That's got to stop.
10:38You can't do that.
10:39That's going to have to stop.
10:40No.
10:41Right.
10:42So.
10:43Well, anyways, Bob, let's take a quick break here.
10:45Is it too early for MVP talk?
10:46We will ask Bob that question coming up next.
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12:17Okay, Bob, is it too early to talk MVP?
12:20Absolutely.
12:21This is a talk show, the contrivance of America and ESPN talking heads and everybody.
12:30It's so silly.
12:31It's still so early in the season.
12:33Now, mid-season, maybe we can start thinking about it.
12:39I would be hypocritical, I'm sure, to suggest that I never did it when I was writing columns
12:45and doing my Sunday notes, that I probably more than once went, for a half-season MVP,
12:53fine.
12:54But people start talking about it at Thanksgiving.
12:57The guy that they're obsessed with now is SGA, and it's fine.
13:02He's the one non-big guy that's going to be in the discussion.
13:06The rest of them are going to be the big guys, and that's fine.
13:10But yeah, I mean, it's just silly.
13:13And then the whole topic, in general, in any sport, we get to the word that is so troublesome
13:19is valuable.
13:22We should have stopped with outstanding player a year or years ago.
13:26But baseball did this, by the way, back in 1931 when they instituted the baseball MVPs
13:32as we know them now.
13:33There were other awards they were giving up to that point, but I don't think they were
13:38calling them valuable.
13:39They put that word valuable in there, and that is such a manipulative word.
13:45It's such a – there's no definition that you can settle on about – most definitely,
13:53usually what people do with valuable now is, well, if you took him away from the team,
13:57where would they be?
13:58Well, guess what?
13:59He's a player, not a GM.
14:01That's dependent on the bench.
14:03That's dependent on the subs.
14:05That's dependent on the roster that he has no control over.
14:09It's not fair to some guys to say that because they've got some good teammates or a better
14:15bench.
14:16That's all.
14:17So, you think that outstanding player, because when you say most valuable player, it will
14:23take some guys out of the mix that are not playing on successful teams?
14:27Well, yeah, it can, but – it can, it can.
14:33I mean, that's what I wonder.
14:34Like, should – like, I always just think of Ernie Banks, right?
14:36I mean, you love baseball.
14:37Mr. Cup, right?
14:39Yeah.
14:40Wasn't he MVP when the Cubs stunk?
14:41Back to – he was back-to-back MVPs in the back-to-back MVP club.
14:44He's on the starting lineup, yeah, exactly.
14:46Right.
14:47He was MVP in 58 and 59.
14:48You know, so if your team isn't in the finals, you know, it almost seems like in order to
14:55get the MVP, your team has to be either in the semis or in the finals.
14:59Yeah.
15:00Oh, yeah.
15:01It's – you'd have to search pretty hard in the major team sports to go beyond.
15:07Back – baseball used to be more open-minded back in 1952.
15:10The MVPs were both pitchers from a fourth-place team, but one of them was.
15:15Bobby Shantz was the American League MVP in 1952, 24-7 record for a fourth-place team.
15:23Now meanwhile, here's the funny – I've got to go now that this comes up.
15:26The seven-year-old, eight-year-old me couldn't understand if Bobby Shantz won it with 24-7,
15:33why didn't Robin Roberts win the National League MVP at 28-7 for another fourth-place
15:39team?
15:40They've never given me a satisfactory answer.
15:42The answer was – the winner was Hank Sauer of the Cubs, slugging outfielder, for another
15:47mediocre team.
15:49So it's, you know, they shut out the Yankees and the Giants and the Dodgers that year,
15:53but they honored guys from fourth-place teams.
15:58It famously happens.
15:59Andre Dawson, his first year in Chicago when he won the MVP, they finished last.
16:04I applaud that, see?
16:07That's fine with me.
16:10But the answer, what we're talking about, it's –
16:12If you had to name one, Bob, today, if you had to name one.
16:19The best player is still Djokic.
16:22I might flip a coin between he and Giannis.
16:25Giannis, you should never take him for granted, and the career he's had, and having, I mean,
16:32it's not over.
16:33It's close to being over.
16:34Frankly, I mean, SGA's been great, and if you want to vote, I think it's a fair guy
16:39to vote for.
16:40That's fine.
16:41But if I had to vote, I would probably go, you know, I would go for Djokic.
16:45I would try to parse it somehow and go, because I'm not even thinking about it, you know,
16:50directly, and Djokic and Giannis.
16:52Well, you make a good point about Giannis, because I have completely forgotten about
16:55him in the box, and it's too bad.
16:57Oh, hey, they're resurrected.
16:59They're back in that mix, okay?
17:02Now, Lillard is – whatever was going on, whatever was not – where it wasn't meshing,
17:08it's starting to now.
17:09You know, Lillard seems much more comfortable right now this year, and it wasn't last
17:15year, there's no question.
17:17And they missed Holiday, no doubt, and you know, Lillard wasn't Holiday, he was a different
17:21kind of player.
17:22But take the Bucs seriously, to be, you know, to be a legitimate playoff team and, you know,
17:29be – nobody's – one of my standard references, I go, nobody's going to go, oh, goody, goody,
17:34we're playing the Bucs.
17:35You're not going to do that.
17:36Right.
17:37You're going to respect them.
17:39So some guys throughout their career are known as starters and known as the man.
17:45But then later on, they find a role coming off the bench.
17:49And I'm trying to think, like, when Kevin McHale came off the bench before Max got traded,
17:54and the Celtics certainly had the sixth man of the year, I don't – I don't recall – I'm
18:02sure you do, like, other players who have come off the bench and certainly played better,
18:08or had a new career coming off the bench.
18:10I don't know if Carmelo came off the bench at the end of his career or not, but Bradley
18:14Beal is a guy you'd like to –
18:15Bradley Beal's the latest.
18:17He's been demoted in his mind, I know.
18:22And the Suns are trying to get themselves together.
18:26And here's the most interesting thing.
18:28That division.
18:29There are only three games separated in the loss between the current first-place Lakers
18:34and the current last-place Suns.
18:36So they're thinking, hey, we're not out of anything.
18:38Right.
18:39You know, we've been playing the way we want to play, but we've got plenty of time to
18:41figure it out in that division, you know.
18:44And Bradley Beal's been benched.
18:46And this week, he's had a 10-point game in a loss, but he's also had 25 last Monday
18:52night in a win, and last night, 25 coming off.
18:56He was 11 for 16 coming off the bench last night.
18:59And I did see a clip of him, and he was saying the quote-unquote right things about trying
19:07to make this adjustment.
19:08It's hard.
19:09I've been a star my whole life.
19:10I've been an all-star, you know.
19:13And it's humbling.
19:14And it's a real test of a guy's character at this stage, a veteran like that, to be
19:21willing to, I don't want to use that word, sacrifice, to adjust, you know, to adjust.
19:29And if he's going to make that adjustment, it's funny, though, I'm looking at their starting
19:32five, including a guy I don't know anything about last night, Ryan Dunn.
19:37You know anything about Ryan Dunn?
19:38I do not.
19:39He's 6'9 out of Virginia.
19:40I barely remember him.
19:41But anyway, Tyus Jones, who has been having a quiet and effective career, he's a very
19:45good turnover to assist guy, by the way.
19:48Very good.
19:49And of course, Mason Plumlee, you know, we haven't seen the last of the Plumlees.
19:55But then, guess who, Durant and Booker, and that's the anchors of the starting five.
20:01But that was the starting five that they put on the floor to win a game last night.
20:06But Beale came off the bench with 25.
20:08If he's going to, you know, make contributions like that, you know, but I do think you have
20:14to identify what the Suns and Mike Budenholzer is trying to accomplish in a division where
20:22they're not out of anything.
20:23Right.
20:24Even though they're under .500 by one game.
20:26I believe they're .18 and .19.
20:27Well, I mean, if you come off the bench, you're going to get the ball more because chances
20:31are one of the other two stars, one of the other two stars are going to be in the back.
20:36They're .17 and .19.
20:37Yeah.
20:38Right.
20:39Yes.
20:40You know, so I can see where something like that could work.
20:41Look, we all know the Celtics set the bar with the second unit.
20:45I mean, you know, the sixth man with red, whether it was Hondo or was Sharman the first?
20:51Who was the first man?
20:52Ramsey.
20:53Ramsey.
20:54Ramsey.
20:55Ramsey.
20:56Ramsey.
20:57First famous sixth man.
20:58Hondo.
20:59McHale.
21:00You know.
21:01So, I mean, they set the stage for that.
21:02The one, you know, one player comes to mind, but it was injuries that forced him into this
21:08was Walton.
21:09I mean, Walton, obviously when he was healthy, was dominant.
21:12I mean, what a, what a, what a player, but then he came to Boston that one year.
21:18Yeah.
21:19One year, unfortunately, but it was a great year.
21:22He won sixth man of the year in a different way.
21:25And I'll say when my, my trump card and the Celtics of 50, 85, 86 being the best team
21:30ever is among them.
21:32But the trump card is nobody, nobody has yet before, since brought that nature of a force
21:39off the bench.
21:40Right.
21:41The additional six man is a hybrid, usually guard forward, usually as opposed to forward
21:46center.
21:48But McHale was, was the exception to that among and, but you know, two position player
21:55who can help you or, or as a real, real specialist, either shooting or defending or whatever.
22:01But Walton brought things to the game that from the backup, given the Celtics, the greatest
22:06one to center punch ever with Robert still at his prime and Kevin, obviously Bill playing
22:11that way.
22:12Nobody's played that way at center coming off the benches, whereas Bill Walton did had
22:17that much of an effect on the game.
22:19No question.
22:20I've told this story before, and I just think the game misses him.
22:25I think, you know, it's, he's not with us anymore, unfortunately, but at a Celtic event,
22:33they said, you have 10 minutes to interview Bill.
22:36I asked him one question.
22:39I can relate to that.
22:43When I interviewed him in December of 2023 for the Larry Bird Museum as part of, and
22:52I asked the question and one question and it had to be seven or eight minutes off.
22:58He went, he was priceless, wonderful, a very interesting, fascinating, lovable human being.
23:05Let me tell you, I miss him.
23:06I miss talking to him.
23:08I miss him very much.
23:10Very, very much.
23:11But yeah, no question.
23:13Oh, my God. So unique.
23:16I mean, and he's the reason that ESPN did that documentary on sports and the Grateful
23:23Dead and my friend Troy Champagne directed it.
23:26But I also went to the premiere and I got to meet Bill's family was there because Bill
23:30was the person who drove that to try to get that made the Grateful Dead in basketball.
23:35Only Bill Walton could bring those two worlds together.
23:39Absolutely amazing.
23:40All right, Bob, we've got some final thoughts coming up.
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25:18Okay, Robert, as always, you have some numbers for us.
25:23I do.
25:24Now in my weekly account of scoring and thinking about how the game has evolved to where it's
25:31current state of high scoring basketball, we have 20 guys averaging, 35 people averaging
25:3820 points a game, 35.
25:40We have 13 averaging over 25.
25:43That's a lot.
25:44And we've got three guys over 30, of course.
25:46Okay.
25:47That's number one.
25:49And free throw shooting, Steph Curry is number one, 91 for, this is as of Thursday, the 8th,
25:59Wednesday the 8th, Thursday, it's Wednesday, Curry 91 of 98, 9-2-9.
26:05Number two, which is really interesting, Joel Embiid, Joel Embiid, all seven feet of them
26:12are seven, whatever of them, 103 for 112, 92%.
26:17Congratulations.
26:18That's pretty good.
26:19Now one more thing, the three-point world nestled down at the bottom of the leaders.
26:29Check these numbers now.
26:31Steph Curry, 129 for 305, 4-2-3.
26:37Peyton Pritchard, 129 for 307.
26:41They're almost identical, 42%.
26:44I just find that fascinating.
26:46And what it speaks to is Pritchard is firing up more than anybody per minute, per second,
26:53per appearance, per touch, whatever way you want to look at it, right?
26:58Anybody in a league is firing up threes to the degree that Pritchard is in his game time.
27:06So there you go.
27:09And by the way, you know who leads the league in field goal percentage, three-point?
27:13No.
27:14Nikola Jokic.
27:17Nikola Jokic leads the league, 47%.
27:23Yeah.
27:25I mean, you're talking historical mind-boggling.
27:28Well, he's unbelievable.
27:30You mentioned the top, the guys averaging 30.
27:34He's one of them, right?
27:35Yeah.
27:36And Giannis and SGA.
27:38Okay.
27:39So think of a guy like Jokic.
27:42What's his rebounding average, though?
27:43Oh, he's stuck number two, and he's in the top five.
27:47He's everything.
27:48And of course, he's a walking triple-double.
27:50He's a walking triple-double?
27:53When you say him, I don't even look at him as a center.
27:56I mean, I just look at him as a player.
27:59I didn't think of him leading threes, but I'm not surprised at all.
28:02And then you look at the numbers, and you go 10 rebounds, eight assists.
28:06I mean, he's just a complete...
28:08He's everything.
28:09He is such a...
28:10Anyway, he's a pure basketball player.
28:13I keep pointing out, he does that game at his pace.
28:17Nothing disrupts him.
28:18I mean, God love Europe.
28:20I know.
28:21Nothing...
28:22Nothing gets him out of his game.
28:24Nothing.
28:25Nobody...
28:26There's no way to fluster him.
28:27He's going to...
28:28Like I said, he's not going 78 RPM.
28:31He's not going 45.
28:33He's going 33 at his pace, and you ain't stopping him.
28:37No.
28:38What a pleasure.
28:39Pleasure.
28:40I mean, he doesn't have to get a step on you.
28:42No.
28:43No.
28:44Oh, and speaking of step, this is out of absolutely nothing.
28:47I don't even know the young lady's name.
28:49I recommend people YouTube the LSU Tennessee women's game last night to check out the winning
28:58basket for the LSU lady who went to the basket.
29:04There is nobody in this world, no NBA player that would be any prouder of what he could...
29:11If he'd done that, then he could be what this woman made, this shot, to win a game.
29:17You'll see it.
29:18Go see it.
29:19Bob will be on the lookout for it.
29:20Always a pleasure, my friend.
29:21With Bob Ryan, Gary Tanguay here on CLNS Media, brought to you by PrizePix, the exclusive
29:26daily fantasy partner of CLNS Media Network.
29:28Pick more, pick less with PrizePix.
29:30Bob, see you next time.
29:32Very good.

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