Samedi 21 décembre 2024, TIME TO TALK reçoit Arnaud Poujade (Cofondateur et Directeur Produit, Ocarat) et David Kellie (CEO, Natural Diamond Council)
Category
🗞
NewsTranscription
00:00Dans ce Time to Talk, nous sommes à la Cité, dans le 2e arrondissement parisien, où s'ouvre
00:13une exposition, Big Bang, consacrée aux diamants naturels.
00:17Ça nous donne l'occasion, dans Time to Talk, de parler de la place du diamant dans
00:21l'horlogerie.
00:22Nous recevrons David Kelly, le CEO du Natural Diamond Council, qui viendra nous parler de
00:29cette place du diamant, et ensuite nous recevrons Arnaud Poujade, cofondateur d'Ocara et Ochrono,
00:37un ancien insider de l'industrie du diamant, devenu un des tout premiers détaillants horlogers
00:42français.
00:43Bienvenue sur Be Smart For Change, c'est tout de suite dans Time to Talk.
00:47Pour cette interview, nous avons le plaisir de recevoir David Kelly, le CEO du NDC, le
00:58Natural Diamond Council, ici à Paris, il est venu de New York, il nous fait le plaisir
01:03de sa présence.
01:04David, good morning.
01:05Good morning.
01:06So, tell us a little bit about the Natural Diamond Council, the mission, what it stands
01:16for, because diamond is a subject that is not very known to the public, it seems, and
01:25so they need a little bit of guidance, let's say, to apprehend the subject.
01:31Yes, I think everybody knows diamonds, I think I'm yet to meet anybody in the world that
01:37doesn't know what diamonds are, particularly in jewelry and worn on the red carpet, so
01:46diamonds themselves are very well known, but what many people don't understand is the
01:51origins of diamond.
01:54So, our role at the Natural Diamond Council is to help explain and people understand
02:00what it is about the diamond, the natural diamond, what it is about the diamond industry
02:05that results in this beautiful gem that most people see in jewelry.
02:11Very well, so talking about the industry, as you said, what are the numbers, the big
02:17numbers of the industry today?
02:18How many carats are extracted today, where are they extracted, versus, and this is going
02:29to be a subject today, because we see that there is a lot of synthetic diamonds as well
02:34on the market, and we'd like to understand which is which, what are the proportions of
02:41the industry?
02:43Yes, so, well firstly, synthetic diamonds don't report as an overall industry, so I
02:49can't specifically speak to the numbers of synthetic diamonds, but for natural diamonds,
02:55around just over 100 million carats a year are recovered.
03:00So that number has been declining for the last 10 to 15 years, so it's a constantly
03:06declining number.
03:09So, synthetic diamonds are forecasted to come to an end, natural diamond recovery,
03:15in the next 30 to 50 years, so it's a finite resource that is slowly being depleted.
03:22So what you're saying is that we have reached the peak of extraction somewhere around 2015?
03:32Somewhere around there, probably before there was peak extraction.
03:37Large mines are now reaching their end of life, so for example, there was a major mine
03:41in Australia called Argyle that closed just over 2 years ago, and that was about 8% of
03:47the world's production of diamonds.
03:51And there are no new deposits that have been found in a number of years, so although there's
03:56exploration always happening, there have been no new major deposits, so that's why I think
04:01the industry is confident in its forecast that the recovery of diamonds will come to
04:06an end somewhere in the next 30 to 50 years.
04:09So we have less and less natural diamonds, potentially, on the market, and yet we see
04:15the brands that are advertising them, or putting diamonds at the heart of their strategy, and
04:22I'm talking about watch brands here, we see that the importance of watches with diamonds
04:30is taking a more and more significant place for some big brands.
04:35So how are we going to cope with this?
04:38How's the interaction between an organisation like yours, an industry like yours, the natural
04:43diamond, and the brands?
04:45Yes, I mean the brands and their clients obviously appreciate the rarity and individuality of
04:53diamonds.
04:54Interestingly, in the watch market, diamonds have become much more prevalent in men's watches,
05:01so up until the last few years, diamonds were frequently used in ladies' watches,
05:07but now in men's watches we're seeing a lot of natural diamonds as well.
05:11So yes, but it's like all scarce resources, it's something that can't be produced, it's
05:16something that can only be recovered, and that over time, cultures will evolve, but
05:21they will become more scarce, and therefore they'll become more valuable.
05:25So, and this was going to be my next question, where are the prices of natural diamonds going
05:30to head at?
05:32Because less and less, meaning the price is going to be up and up?
05:37Yes, I mean that would be the natural conclusion from it all, so we can only look at the here
05:42and the now and say, well look, what are the likely impacts on that, so again, working
05:48on the fundamental rules of economics, that as the supply becomes more scarce, that price
05:53will go up, that's what we are anticipating.
05:58That's also been proved over the last 30 years, prices in the short term have always
06:02been cyclical, like any scarce commodity, but over the long term, diamonds have always
06:07been shown to appreciate in value, so it's why we anticipate that trend continuing.
06:15Very well.
06:17Keeping in mind this value versus price, how does the natural diamond compare to synthetic
06:25diamonds?
06:27Yes, so synthetic diamonds over the last four years have declined in price between
06:3280 and 90% at retail, so they've undergone a significant reduction in price, and that
06:41follows the pattern of all technological materials.
06:46As the technology evolves, as the capacity increases, as more entrants come into the
06:53market, as the market becomes more sophisticated, every technology over that period of time,
06:59over a period of time, gets considerably cheaper, and that's exactly what we anticipated
07:04with lab-grown diamonds, that's exactly what has happened.
07:08So I think now that consumers really understand that something that is made in a factory that
07:14can be produced at huge scale, that each one is a copy of another one, is a very different
07:20proposition from a natural diamond.
07:22A natural diamond is created, or was created billions of years ago deep beneath the Earth's crust.
07:29It's an incredible coincidence of nature, it was heat and pressure that created them,
07:34followed by volcanic eruptions that brought them to the surface that enabled us to recover them.
07:39So it means that each one is individual and unique, and that's very different from a product
07:44that is created to order in a factory.
07:48You can pretty much in a factory say, however many I want of what type of diamond and what
07:54size, that can be done.
07:57I think with now the significant price differential between lab-grown diamonds, synthetic diamonds,
08:03natural diamonds, that the consumers now understand that these are very different propositions
08:11and what the values of each are.
08:14Very well.
08:16So, taking this into account, we've seen the oil companies moving from carbon energy
08:33and investing into alternative energies, wind, solar, you name it, because we've reached
08:43a peak for oil extraction, and they have to find other outcomes.
08:50What would be, for the industry of diamond, the next move if we're coming to the end of diamond extraction?
08:57Yeah.
08:58So really the parts of the industry that will be most impacted will be the countries from
09:05which diamonds are recovered.
09:08So if I give you the example of Botswana, a third of the GDP of Botswana comes from
09:14natural diamonds, two-thirds of their foreign currency.
09:18So it's incredibly important to their economy, and as you rightly point out, what comes next?
09:24Because if it's such an important part of your economy, you have to anticipate when
09:29that situation is no longer there, and what all of these producer countries are doing
09:34are doing exactly that and saying, how can we develop skills, how can we develop industries
09:40probably related to the original industry, but transfer those skills and make them have
09:49utility for years to come?
09:52So for example, in Botswana is the manufacture of jewellery, well, we'll always be able to
09:59produce jewellery, so is that a part to play afterwards?
10:04Technology is a major part of this industry.
10:08The actual diamond industry is a very technical industry, there's a lot of technical know-how,
10:15and so engineering and IT and AI and those areas are areas where the skills developed
10:22within the diamond industry can be transferable.
10:27Even the roles of marketing and communication is to say, okay, well, look, in the future,
10:31how are we going to become a hub for marketing and communication?
10:36I was in Botswana and meeting with them and producing content, producing TV shows, etc.
10:44So it's very interesting speaking with these governments who have a very strong awareness
10:49of how do we use the benefits of this natural resource to make sure that we are empowering
10:57our people for generations to come and that we don't waste this opportunity.
11:03Absolutely.
11:04And this is, I mean, the sustainability part in the whole diamond industry is vital, especially
11:13for these countries who rely vastly on the diamond industry.
11:20And again, people often have this question of how sustainable is a diamond?
11:27Because we all have different backgrounds and different images in our heads relating
11:34to diamonds, beyond the fact that it's a beautiful, shiny object.
11:41What's the sustainability strategy for the diamond industry, the natural diamond industry?
11:50And how can we oppose this to the synthetic diamonds as well?
11:55Because they're...
11:56Excuse me, David.
11:57Yeah, yeah.
11:58My question is...
11:59No, no, no.
12:00I'm going to try not to lose you.
12:01But it's very often put in front of each other and say, synthetic diamonds are more sustainable.
12:10It's probably questionable.
12:11What's your take on that?
12:14So I would say to anybody, claims around sustainability are being made by everybody
12:21now.
12:22And it's very, very difficult for the consumer to understand which are legitimate and which
12:27aren't.
12:28And even, do you have the time to go and investigate the product that you're buying to ensure that
12:33loose claims around sustainability are made?
12:36And authorities in every country are trying to bring in laws that make sure that when
12:43people claim sustainability, that they are clearly justifying that claim through independent
12:49third party research.
12:53So I would encourage everyone to not take it for granted when a sustainability claim
12:59is being made, particularly if it hasn't got any substantiation behind it, I would pretty
13:04much ignore it.
13:06What I would say for the natural diamond industry is that the sustainability has been
13:13at the heart of it from long before when it became a buzzword and something to talk about.
13:20So this has been a key part of the industry for the last two or three decades.
13:25And a big reason why is coming back to the countries where they're recovered from, diamonds
13:30have to leave a lasting impact in those countries.
13:33These natural resources belong to those countries.
13:36They don't belong to anybody else.
13:38They belong to those countries.
13:40And those countries have done an incredible job of ensuring that they create a positive
13:45impact.
13:47So for example, 80% of the value of a rough diamond typically stays within that country
13:53through tax, through royalties, through sourcing, through joint ventures, through all sorts
13:58of financial mechanisms.
14:00That money stays within the country.
14:02And so the impact of diamonds on these countries, as I mentioned earlier on, is absolutely significant.
14:10On the people of these countries, it's significant.
14:12It gives the people of Botswana free education.
14:15It builds roads, it builds hospitals, it builds an infrastructure that then empowers people.
14:21So sustainability, a lot of the time, is used in the term of not damaging the world, the
14:29planet, the environment.
14:31But in the case of natural diamonds, there are many examples where actually it's a significant
14:36positive impact, which generally you don't get in man-made products, because the only
14:43stakeholders that seek to gain are the shareholders.
14:46That's how commerce and business works.
14:49But genuinely, where you have responsible practices in mineral recovery managed properly,
14:57it can have a huge positive impact in these countries.
15:01And we're going to stay on this very positive note.
15:04We'll have to stop here for this interview.
15:07Thank you very much, David, for being here today with us.
15:11And thank you for the tips that many people are going to use because it's Christmas season after all.
15:16Great.
15:17It's been a pleasure.
15:18Thank you very much, David.
15:19See you soon.
15:20Thank you.
15:21For this interview, I'm joined by Arnaud Poujade, co-founder of Ocara and Ochrono.
15:29So, Ocara, Ochrono, already a great success, 180 watch brands, since we're talking about
15:35watchmaking, plus jewellery brands.
15:38Arnaud, how did it all start a few years ago?
15:41So, hello.
15:42Thank you for inviting us, for inviting me.
15:45We were in the diamond market before, in the trade.
15:49We had an office in Anvers.
15:51And we had, we worked in collaboration with teams in Africa.
15:57The supply crisis happened in October, November 2008.
16:02And suddenly, we lost our branches there.
16:05And we tried to reinvent ourselves.
16:08So we went back to our country of origin, which was France.
16:11And we said to ourselves, why not bring the diamond on the Internet?
16:14And that's where it started.
16:15So when you say we, you were already several potential co-founders of Ocara at that time?
16:21We were three associates out of the five today.
16:24Very good.
16:25So the evolution, since now you have a little hindsight.
16:29Since the creation of Ocara and Ochrono, without coming from the world of watchmaking until now.
16:34How is it going?
16:35Because watchmaking at the time was a world that was a little stiff.
16:40How do you get there as an outsider?
16:43So yes, it's quite fair.
16:46That is to say, we started with the jewel.
16:48So the diamond, the jewel.
16:50And the pendant of the jewel, and in particular the jewel of excellence, par excellence for man, is the watch.
16:55So we started.
16:57I went to Basel in 2011.
17:00To actually try to draw and have brands referenced on our website.
17:06Because at first we were really only web, only digital.
17:09The doors didn't open.
17:11At that time, it was a bit disruptive in their way of thinking.
17:15And no one really wanted to work with us.
17:18In any case, not the leading brands.
17:20So we started to try to work with brands a little bit in parallel.
17:25Niche brands that had a real watchmaking know-how, but which were not mass market.
17:30And in the end, we showed that we knew how to work with the product.
17:34That we were also passionate, that we were interested.
17:36And we managed to convince leading brands to work with us.
17:40And today, indeed, we have 180 brands in our catalog.
17:43I think we are the best representative of watchmaking in France and in Europe.
17:49Not to mention luxury brands, really.
17:51Because we have a ceiling, we are on the middle range plus.
17:55And the fact of making a vast majority of online sales today,
18:01maintains this kind of glass ceiling.
18:04Since when you go to buy a watch at 8, 10, 12, 15 thousand euros and more,
18:09it is obviously necessary for most buyers to have experience in the store.
18:15Absolutely.
18:16So very quickly, we realized that we needed,
18:18and that it was an obligation for some brands, to have a physical store.
18:23And that's what we did after three years,
18:27to have precisely these brands that we were looking for.
18:31These leading brands.
18:32So the legitimacy of physical retail to pair it with online,
18:37it was the winning recipe, in fact.
18:39I think so.
18:41We had a period afterwards where it was all online.
18:45And the brands came back to it.
18:47And they understood that they needed the association of the two.
18:49And we are on click and mortar, for many.
18:52And I also think that the store allows,
18:55since we are really national,
18:57that 99% of our figures are made in France.
19:00So it's very interesting in terms of data, in terms of partnerships with brands.
19:04I also think that it allows to reassure the customer who is not in Paris or in Île-de-France.
19:09Because our store is located in the heart of Paris.
19:11Our watch screen.
19:13Because it's a concept store too.
19:14It's quite special.
19:15And it allows, one, to attribute to certain brands that should not only be the web.
19:21And two, to reassure the customer in his purchase.
19:23So precisely, on the brand side,
19:26how is the relationship with an Okara at the time?
19:31Which still holds, in terms of data, a lot of things compared to brands.
19:36How does it rely on you for this understanding of the market?
19:40We work as a real partner.
19:43That is to say that we make deals with them.
19:46We have a support on the stock.
19:49And in return, we also give them data.
19:52But they also give us data on their market.
19:55Because they have all these selling points.
19:57And that allows us to be the most accurate in our field, I think.
20:01OK.
20:02We were talking about retail.
20:04The importance of the physical.
20:06Okara today has a boutique, Rue Trivoli, in Paris.
20:11The future ambition for Okara's retail in France,
20:14as we see in some brands or in some retailers,
20:17isn't it the multiplication of these selling points to be as close as possible
20:22and to be able to give access points to the boutique
20:26in Lyon tomorrow, in Nantes, in Bordeaux, in Lille?
20:31We are working on this subject.
20:33Indeed, on a development in the big cities of France.
20:36In partnership with a group and a few brands that would follow us
20:40for financial support.
20:42Because it's a lot more stock.
20:44And anyway, for a selling point, you have to be profitable.
20:47Our company is profitable.
20:49It is well managed.
20:52We are trying to look for growth,
20:54but an intelligent and profitable growth.
20:57The point of the stock is extremely important,
21:00because it is very frustrating for a client to be in Lille
21:03and to see that the amount they wanted is actually available,
21:05but at the Marseille store.
21:07So there, potentially, it would be necessary to multiply the stock
21:10to have the maximum of references available in each physical place in France.
21:15Yes, exactly.
21:16What we are also trying to do in our boutique
21:19is to have at least one reference,
21:22a watch that is representative of a range.
21:25Yes.
21:26Which allows, for the size, to try,
21:29even if the dial or the finish is not the same,
21:32at least he can try it and realize the product.
21:36We see what it gives our wrists,
21:37even if the declination of the dial is not necessarily the one we are looking for.
21:40Exactly.
21:41So we still have a positive experience.
21:43There is a contact.
21:44And that's important,
21:45because we remind you that a worn watch is the only way to know if it suits you.
21:50Exactly.
21:51No matter its size, no matter ...
21:53Sorry, but there is a notion of comfort, indeed,
21:56what you describe.
21:57It is very important.
21:58And for sizes too.
21:59Today, we see on the watch market the crusade against large watches.
22:03Yes.
22:04Except that what we forget is that a watch that is 42 mm
22:08can be quite worn by a more modest wrist in terms of size
22:13if the proportions of the watch allow it,
22:15whereas it can seem huge if the proportions do not suit.
22:20So again, trying in a store becomes completely essential.
22:24I think it's essential, indeed.
22:26After that, we have a return right, which is French,
22:29which is even imposed at the European level.
22:30So the customer ...
22:31We have very good customer reviews per thousand,
22:34so that reassures him.
22:35And even if he is in the province, indeed,
22:37he can order from us and he will have this return right.
22:41We did the physical, we talked a little bit about online.
22:44Now, the We Love Watches event that you created,
22:49which was a success,
22:50it was October 12 in Samaritan.
22:53How did you come up with this model?
22:55Why?
22:56And what do you expect from it?
22:59So there was a show in the past in France
23:02which was held at the Louvre carousel and which stopped.
23:07And I, who have traveled a little bit,
23:09the world in any case, different international shows,
23:12with my partner, we talked about it several times, Grégory.
23:16So he is the marketing director
23:19and who also allows the company to be profitable
23:22because we are very strong in SEO.
23:24And he told me, yes, it would be good to create an event
23:27at the beginning of the year,
23:29at the beginning, sorry, at the start,
23:31so rather September-October,
23:32to precisely highlight the French watchmaker.
23:36And by, how to say, capillarity,
23:39it would also talk about Okara as a reseller.
23:42So everyone is a winner.
23:44And I tried to impose,
23:47and that's my thing,
23:48that everyone is housed in the same venue.
23:51Because having done, in particular,
23:52the Grand Salon that you know, Baselworld,
23:54it was a bit of a competition of power.
23:56And what I tried to do,
23:57it's really everyone the same showcase,
23:59the same kakemono, so the same look.
24:01And we're talking about products.
24:03The package is standard for all brands.
24:05The big ones, the small ones, the old ones, the new ones.
24:07Exactly.
24:08And everyone is happy with this format
24:09because it allows a proximity.
24:11And it's true that it's the second year,
24:13it was rather a success,
24:14both for the visitors and for the exhibitors.
24:17And this exchange with the enthusiasts
24:19feeds the brands
24:21because often they have a feedback
24:23only by the resellers.
24:25And the message is not necessarily direct
24:28or can be wrong.
24:29And there, they really have people
24:31who actually talk to them about the proportions,
24:33the crown, the glasses,
24:35the thickness, the lace.
24:38And it feeds them for them later
24:41to develop and feel the market.
24:43So this is the live market feedback
24:45that the brands take.
24:47They just take this feedback.
24:48After the show,
24:50after discussing with the brands who were there,
24:52did anyone have any surprises?
24:54Ah, but all of them are surprises.
24:56All of them are, as I said,
24:58they are really fed.
24:59It's really an experience to look for.
25:01And all of them tell me,
25:03well, next year we'll be there.
25:05So this year, how many?
25:07Almost 80 brands?
25:08A little more than 80 brands.
25:10A little more than 80 brands?
25:1187 brands, to be precise.
25:13And about 1,500 visitors
25:16with a lot of press.
25:18So we are quite happy.
25:20It's a lot of work in advance.
25:22I must say that on this event,
25:24we are a little bit of a patron.
25:25We are getting there.
25:27I would like partnerships
25:29from certain French institutions
25:32that have to promote watchmaking
25:34and jewellery.
25:35I would like them to help us a little bit
25:36because it's a lot of work
25:38and we don't put a lot of time
25:40in advance.
25:41We are really,
25:42by the way, it's We Love Watches,
25:43so it's really important.
25:44The message has been passed.
25:45Yes, thank you.
25:47So, on this We Love Watches show,
25:50several watches in collaboration
25:53have been revealed.
25:54Yes.
25:55I was lucky enough to have
25:57the Meisterzinger
25:59Notre-Dame edition
26:01in my hands.
26:02Superb.
26:03Okara is doing more and more,
26:06I have the impression,
26:07collaborations with watchmakers.
26:10We are trying.
26:11We are more and more solicited.
26:13It's a lot of work.
26:14Does it come from brands that want to…
26:16So it comes from me at first
26:18because we are really in 360.
26:22I follow all the blogs
26:23at the International.
26:24I read the forums.
26:25It's a lot of time.
26:26It's time-consuming,
26:27but it also feeds me
26:28to perceive the market trends.
26:30And it's true that we have this,
26:32how to say, this expertise.
26:33So we started with one or two brands.
26:36It worked pretty well
26:37and other brands came to me.
26:39I also solicit some brands.
26:41It was the case with Meisterzinger
26:43and it's something,
26:45it's a momentum that, yes,
26:46it's not going to stop.
26:47To amplify, I don't know.
26:49It has to be proportionate,
26:51reasoned.
26:53What is the ideal rhythm
26:54for collaborations?
26:55A collaboration is,
26:56you have to say,
26:57it's between six months
26:58and a year of development
26:59with brands, exchanges.
27:01There's a lot.
27:02So it's mainly about the framework,
27:04the indexes, the needles.
27:08We're not working on a box
27:09that would require,
27:10at the industrial level,
27:11a lot more…
27:12Or movement
27:13and it has little interest
27:14for the end customer.
27:15Exactly.
27:18The framework is a painting.
27:20So there is a way to express yourself.
27:21There is a way to express yourself
27:22and to change
27:23and to bring a new angle
27:24to the brands
27:25who have a certain way
27:26in their creation
27:27to work
27:28and to bring a new look.
27:30And then to benefit
27:31as a detailer
27:32of online and offline exclusivity,
27:35of exclusivity
27:36and to support the growth
27:38of the brand
27:39and the detailer.
27:42In this case,
27:43at Ocara,
27:44everyone is a winner.
27:45Everyone is a winner,
27:46it's communication.
27:47That's really it.
27:48What's next at Ocara?
27:50What's next at Ocara?
27:51What are your ambitions?
27:52As you said,
27:53it's certainly
27:54the development of stores,
27:56of local sales points
28:00and then always trying
28:02to take market shares
28:05on the web
28:06and to continue
28:07to do our job well,
28:08both in terms of research
28:10and in terms of classification,
28:11of commercial offers.
28:14With the goal
28:15that remains in progress
28:16despite a difficult industry?
28:17A measured growth
28:18in a market that is...
28:20Controlled.
28:21Controlled, exactly.
28:22In a market that is very,
28:23very complicated, yes.
28:24Very complicated,
28:25I confirm.
28:26But afterwards,
28:27we are in an inflationary,
28:28recessionary period
28:29and as long as wages
28:30do not increase,
28:31it will also be complicated
28:32for everyone
28:33in the business sector.
28:34But developments to come.
28:35We will stay
28:36on this positive note.
28:37Of course.
28:38Thank you very much, Arnaud,
28:39for being with us today
28:40and see you very soon
28:41on Time to Talk.
28:42Thank you for inviting us.
28:43Thank you.