Zoë Kravitz ("Blink Twice") and Matt Reeves reunite after working together on "The Batman." They discuss how Zoë's directorial debut came about from the "rage" she was feeling towards men in power and how directing movies feels like making magic.
Variety Directors on Directors presented by "Nickel Boys"
Variety Directors on Directors presented by "Nickel Boys"
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00:00Writing and filmmaking to some degree is like being in a dark room and everything you need is in the room
00:05But there's no lights and you're on hands and knees and you're feeling around. Yeah, so something connects you go. Oh, that's something
00:19Do you remember when we first met of course, okay, I mean I came to your office
00:25Yes, it was at Warner Brothers. Okay pre-production offices. I came to an office you did and
00:32You talked to me about the Batman. Yes, and I hadn't read the script yet. I had been is that right?
00:37Oh, you had instructed me to not read the script
00:40Oh, that's interesting because you wanted to kind of pitch me the world story. Yeah, and you wanted to show me visuals and
00:47Talk to me about your references, right? And so we talked about that first Wow
00:52We met again, is that right? And then I and then I read my memory is different than yours
00:56But now I realized that I don't remember the first meeting. I remember the second meeting
00:59Yes, because in the second meeting you came in with all of these amazing ideas. I
01:04Have ideas. Yeah, no, then I read the script and it was very helpful to kind of know what you were going for beforehand
01:10Right, and then we met again, right and that's when I had all the all the thought. Yeah. Yeah, which was great
01:16I mean, that's what I what I remember. It's funny because I didn't remember that there was a pre-meeting meeting
01:20yeah, but I remember you coming in having just read it and
01:24Then you were like just so many of your ideas you were talking about how?
01:29the idea of her collecting strays the interest in cats and how it related to her and
01:33To how it had to do with the other characters with Annika and you had
01:37Line ideas and which made it into the movie because they were great
01:41And so I have to say that that for me like I felt like from the very beginning
01:46Mm-hmm, you obviously were approaching it as an actor and I think all actors approach it from the point of view of the story for
01:53their character, but you definitely
01:55it's not surprising to me that you directed and that you've done such an incredible job with your first film because
02:02the ideas in all of that you that were that you were coming to immediately were like very
02:08Just smart. It's not what I thought it was gonna be
02:12What do you mean
02:14The legendary parties of Slater King. So first of all, where where did the idea? How did this develop?
02:21How did this how did you start like what was it? Where did the idea for it twice come?
02:25I didn't know where it was going when I started to write it. I was it was 2017. I was living in London
02:29I was shooting a film there and I I
02:33Was just feeling a lot of rage
02:36Towards men but also towards men in power and that dynamic and I went to a cafe one day and
02:43wrote down the original title of the film which was Pussy Island, right and I just started writing this story and and these characters and
02:51And I really didn't know where it was going. Did you know you were gonna do you wanted to direct it?
02:55No, I didn't even know what it was gonna be. I didn't know if it was gonna was it a screenplay
02:59Are you so you just know I wrote like this
03:00I started writing it almost as like a like a stream of consciousness
03:03I see which kind of turned into a novella which then turned into a screen Wow, and I knew that I was drawing ideas from
03:11you know the Bible in the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve and the idea of the serpent and you know
03:16Getting information and that idea of being villainized, right?
03:19But I didn't know where it was gonna go and then I just kind of kept going and then it turned into a screenplay Wow
03:25And you code it? Yeah, so when you did that
03:28Was that about like wait, how do I find a way to take this novella and
03:32Structured into yeah to a screenplay and the novella did kind of flow like a film because I do think that way
03:39You know, I think in terms of film, but I think just to get the idea out
03:44I just kind of like purged it into like a stream of consciousness once you would decide. Okay, this is a screenplay
03:48Yeah, did you ever think that you might be in it? How did it turn into?
03:52You know what? This is this is the thing that I want to do where I want to start first of all
03:56Did you know before then that you even wanted to direct like how many years have you acted I've acted for
04:0620 years. Okay, and then when did you decide was it this that made you realize?
04:10Oh, I want to direct or had you always thought gosh, I would be interested in doing that part of it
04:15I was always interested in it
04:17but I don't think I ever really took it seriously in terms of I don't think I even allowed myself to
04:23Admit that that was something I wanted to do because it felt a little bit impossible for some reason
04:27but I think the more I acted the more I realized that it was
04:31Filmmaking as a whole that I was in love with and I think especially as a woman
04:37You're when you love film. You're kind of told like oh cute. You should be an actress, you know
04:42And so no one says like little girl. You want to you love movies. You should be a director, right?
04:46You should be an editor, you know
04:49Cinematographer and so I think that acting was just the way that I could contribute to the thing that I loved, right?
04:55But I was you know when I'm on set
04:57I'm always so I love being on set and kind of watching and learning like, you know, you I mean, that's what I remember
05:09It's got a nice ring
05:10I'm sure that was your experience that I want to talk to you about that like work each actor wants something different and what I
05:15really enjoyed in our experience was
05:18That we were both in the pursuit of this thing and that you were someone who I could say let's look at the monitor
05:24Yeah, let's watch it and let's watch this moment. Let's search for the moment
05:27and so that was another way where
05:29It's not a surprise to me at all that you're a director because you were by the way
05:33Cuz so other actors have a very self-conscious response. I usually don't you actually like rocked my world with that idea
05:38Is that right? Yeah, because you would say come watch right and you invited me into the process, right?
05:43And because specifically Selena, it's such a physical role, right?
05:47It really really helped and I was able to kind of like get away from you know
05:52The fear and anxiety of like watching yourself sure and really watch and look for your vision
05:58In a way where I was able to like really really serve the movie as a whole because I was let in on that process
06:03Right, you know little things like the angles of my face and like what looks dangerous
06:08Sure all those things like really really
06:10Yeah, I remember you making real adjustments that were like, you know, even like oh the walk or the thing like everything was
06:15You remember that day?
06:16There's one day where I was walking in heels and because they're heels, you know kind of makes you go like that
06:21Well, that doesn't look yeah, you know like feline like yes
06:23And so I figured out how to like because you let me watch it
06:26yeah, I figured out how to like drag my feet in this like really and it looks so smooth and
06:32But it was it was because you really invited me in to be a part of that. Some directors don't do that. Yeah
06:37So then when you decided that you were gonna direct it the thing that really blew me away about the movie
06:42I mean, you know, I you know, I called you right? Yeah, I just feel like as
06:46somebody's first film
06:48it was so accomplished in terms of
06:52Really the direction visually it's so advanced. There's just an approach that's so precise
06:57I think is the word that I would use to describe it. There are scenes where you're like, okay
07:01The scene is just gonna be this shot and it's not on someone's face. It's just here
07:04It's on this part of the body or that kind of thing like very like real choices a lot of times
07:08I think when you see somebody trying out something new and you know
07:12I remember making my first films and that kind of stuff a lot of times you kind of try and find a way to
07:19Maybe cover it in a way that's somewhat conventional and yeah, you didn't do that at all
07:24So going back to you as a screenwriter
07:28Because I was so struck with the storytelling from the cameras point of view
07:33Was was any of that in the script?
07:35Did you write like when you're for example when I'm writing I'm often writing because I'm thinking I'm gonna direct it and I often
07:41Will sometimes be searching for the shots and sometimes put it in the script
07:45Did you did you do that or do you do that afterwards?
07:47How did you arrive at your visual style as I got closer and closer to directing it?
07:50I think the first pass was very much just okay
07:52What's the story and but then as I you know
07:56Continue to write and rewrite and once I knew I wanted to direct it
07:58I think I did started thinking I did start thinking a lot more visually right?
08:02And so yeah, there were some very specific, you know shots, you know written into the script
08:07And you know, it's funny that you say that too. I watched let me in the other day
08:10yeah, and I had that exact thought there's almost an
08:14Abstractness to the way you shot that film
08:16There are a lot of times where you know
08:18You don't start with a wide and show where you know where you are and then go in, you know
08:21You're just kind of show these moments and these angles whether it's like the feet on the snow or like the you know
08:28He's in the bath. She's in the bathroom and the stalls. It's it's um, it feels almost like it's more emotional that way
08:34Yeah, you know, it's like it doesn't matter if you know where these people are it matters that you know how it feels
08:40Yes where they are. Yeah, and I definitely accomplished that and what you did
08:44I mean, I really felt like to me what's really important visually is in
08:48What I'm always grasping for is a sense of subjectivity and as it related to this story where it's being
08:53Revealed to her and the way in which you have things intrude and the way in which you're letting the audience know
08:58There's something here. Like you're creating a tremendous amount of suspense. Yeah in a very
09:03Impressive way were there as you were as you were discovering what you wanted to do
09:09Were you being inspired by other filmmakers? Like where did that visual style?
09:13Did you always know that you wanted it to kind of look that way or how did you arrive at that?
09:17What was your process? Did you collect images? Did you yeah, I know that you're you know
09:21You're very sophisticated in terms of fashion in terms of photography
09:24And so I didn't know if you like I often collect stuff
09:27I often start building a kind of almost notebook of stuff and it just seems so specific what you did
09:32What were like where what were your inspirations?
09:35I I mean me and my DP spent two and a half weeks together in London
09:38Just watching movies together and kind of breaking down a lot of Paul Thomas Anderson
09:43Like I knew I wanted it to feel stylized
09:45Yeah
09:45you know so PTA and Tarantino but also like Robert Altman like three women was a movie that I really loved and
09:52drew a lot of inspiration from that and
09:54And then I think once we kind of figured out
09:58You know the direction we wanted to go in I was thinking about more
10:01Emotionally what I wanted to do and because the film is about memory
10:06Yeah
10:06I started thinking a lot about memory and and the difference between
10:10Reality and memory and I wanted the film to feel like memory not like real life
10:16And so when you remember things
10:18You know, you remember things not as they are but as what stood out to you right which is why it's almost exaggerated
10:25You know, and it's about like what does Frida notice?
10:28What does free to feel sure the colors are maybe brighter than they actually were, you know
10:32It's the Sun's almost oppressive in some way
10:35And and so when I kind of allowed myself to let go of the idea that this is real life
10:39This is a memory. Yeah, it allowed us to have a lot of fun visually, right?
10:43Yeah, I mean that's really clear too because even from the beginning
10:46There's a kind of heightened even that space that they're in at the beginning where everything's very white
10:50Yeah, it's all like there's definitely an impression of being in a state of mind. Yeah, that's that's really really cool
10:56So thank you as it being your first
10:59Thing that you're doing in terms of directing. What was the what was the most surprising? What was the hardest thing?
11:04What was the thing that you're going? Okay, I never expected being on this side
11:07I'm not sure if I was prepared for this or anything like that. It's also hard
11:11I mean, I really understand now watching you make the Batman and by the way, like always so calm feeling and kind
11:19but you know, it's just
11:21Overwhelming and it just never stops
11:23You know what?
11:24I mean and you start just dreaming about it and it's all you can think about it takes over your entire being sure and it's
11:31Not like I didn't expect that. I just hadn't experienced it. And so once you experience it you I don't know
11:37It's just there's nothing like it. It's like when women talk about childbirth or something
11:41it's like you can't you don't we hear about it and then
11:44Friends of mine that have babies are like I just you don't know until you until you do it, you know
11:49so it was just
11:50wildly overwhelming
11:51but I think the thing that I
11:54Learned along the way that I'm really proud of and I think it's the thing that kind of saved the film in a lot of
12:00Ways was how to stay creative in a crisis. Sure. That's everything. Yeah, because everything goes wrong
12:05It's like constantly going wrong and I found myself at first kind of panicking and you know
12:10Working from that state of panic and then I realized okay if I surrender to this and lean into this
12:15Yeah, it's probably gonna lead me to something better and it almost always did. Yeah
12:19I mean, that's the thing that I think that I learned is somewhere along the way realizing that
12:23It's okay to say I don't know. Mm-hmm
12:25And also I think it was Coppola who said that a director's real job is presiding over happy accidents
12:30Yes look like those are the things like I was telling you that when I was watching the movie
12:34I was like, oh my god, I can see you in the pursuit of takes
12:36Yeah, and there's that take where the hat falls right? Yeah, I love that. You notice that
12:41And so like that kind of stuff just tells me okay
12:43You're really in that search and that that's the whole thing being present for those moments and and searching and finding the you know
12:49But I I found that working with you and that was one of the things I loved working with you so much because I felt
12:53Like I would notice things
12:55That I would think no one else would notice and then you would come up and and you would talk about that exact thing
13:00You know and it made me feel less crazy
13:02You know, but I feel like I mean, you're an incredibly meticulous filmmaker, you know
13:07I just asked you how it's going with writing and you said slow and I you know
13:10I think that's a wonderful quality because you care so much wonderful except for the speed of getting something done
13:16I know but wouldn't you rather you know, take your time for me. I feel like it's not a choice like it's I
13:22always feel like I
13:25Would never do it the way I'm doing it except that that's the only way I know how to do it
13:30I mean like it ends up being slow because I'm trying to be it's funny because when I think about like the reason I was
13:35asking about writing in the shots is that I kind of think that for me one of the scariest parts of
13:41beginning the process is that blank page the blank screen and it's like
13:46When a shot presents itself just as an idea on the page. It's like, okay, that's a handle
13:51I know that that's where the camera's gonna go even by the way if the camera doesn't go there
13:54Yeah, but it ends up being a way in and everything becomes
13:59Kind of trying to find a way the the metaphor that I always use when I'm talking to like my partners
14:04I always think that writing and filmmaking to some degree is like being in a dark room
14:09Mm-hmm, and everything you need is in the room, but there's no lights and you're on hands and knees and you're looking for the connection
14:14Yeah, so something connects you go. Oh, that's something. Yes. Yes leads to something else. Yeah
14:19yeah, so that like that whole thing when you talk about being on the set and
14:23And
14:24Realizing that like I remember when I first was on the second thing I ever did
14:28I was I did it I did an episode of homicide life on the streets
14:32And I had just I'd done my first film and they were like going
14:34Okay
14:34Hey
14:34We knew you want to direct this and I thought I was about to do Felicity and I was like I better figure out how
14:39To do TV and so they had invited me to do that and I was like, oh, that'll be really cool
14:42And I was like, I was terrified because it was the first thing I hadn't written it and I was like, oh my god
14:47And I remember how much energy I put into
14:52Watching because the idea is like your whole thing as a director is you're supposed to watch right?
14:56you're watching you want to see what the actors are doing you I see does this feel right and then
15:01There was like a six or seven day shoot on day three
15:04I thought I don't think I can have a career if I use this much energy
15:08Watching Wow, and so I literally on day four
15:10I was like I'm going to start trying to relax and then I just know say oh
15:15You actually can relax like when you talk about that thing, but relax I would at the beginning of my career
15:20I was so not relaxed. Yeah, because I put so much energy and is this good yet? Is that working?
15:25Oh, what do I do? How am I gonna change? And then I realize oh wait, I cannot know the answer
15:29But just know that's not it yet. Let's talk about it. Let's go. Let's figure out why this moment is not yet the moment yet
15:34I have an instinct about where it should go, but let's hear what you think. Yes beginning that
15:38That's why you're such a great director though, because when we were trying to figure out scenes, it wasn't just coming up
15:43Here's what it is. Yeah, you'd come up and say I don't know
15:45I don't know and watch it and we talk about it
15:48No, but no, but but allowing yourself not to know and finding it together and
15:54Allowing there to be space to find it because art and creativity really is this like abstract
16:01Magical thing. Yeah, and it just appears in front of you. Yeah, if you let it, you know, that's exactly right. There's something weirdly
16:09Mystical about it. It's like it's funny because when I'm writing a lot of times
16:14I'll do a thing where you know, you have that moment of like inspiration you go
16:18Oh, that's it. Like I'm sure you had that at some some moment whether it was the lizard or whatever
16:21Yeah, where it's like that's the thing
16:23but I'll do a thing where I have these notebooks and I have this weird thing because I'm so
16:28Because I put too much energy in the notebooks have to be I write in sketchbooks to have no lines
16:32Yeah, and they have no lines because if they don't have lines and I can just write in any shape or whatever
16:37But what happens is after I collect notes for a period of time
16:40I sometimes look back and that idea that I thought that I had just had for the first time
16:46I've had like five times Wow, and that's what tells me
16:49Oh, I guess my brain is telling me that that's something that should be in this thing
16:52Yes, and so it does if you're open to it, the thing will start reveal itself
16:57Yeah, and there's also like, you know
16:59Everything weaves into each other in a way that I don't even know what's happening, you know
17:03And which is so amazing the way the subconscious works. Yeah, you know later
17:07I watched the movie now and I'm like, oh wow
17:09there's like that's like a
17:10full theme and like the way that the lizard is like the observer and like the whole thing and I'm like
17:15I don't I just wrote a lizard at them at the time
17:17I don't know what it meant right and then it's magical and I also found myself
17:20When we were doing the press tour people like, you know
17:23ask questions like so where'd the inspiration come from and and I
17:26found myself wanting to answer that question and you make up some like bullshit thesis where you're just like
17:31Well, it was this and that the truth is I realized I was doing a disservice to art
17:36By making it so literal right now because it's not like that. You don't know what you're saying. It's it's magic
17:42Sure, you know
17:43I mean, I think the key thing
17:45though to me is what you said because to me the things that come with a force of emotion are sort of everything and
17:51So the fact that you were angry
17:53That's kind of enough. That's kind of like there's something there and I don't know
17:57I mean, I feel like many times people say maybe that's another Coppola thing with that
18:00The movie itself presents the question. Yeah, and it's the process of making the movie that allows you to try to scratch
18:07Yes. Yeah, I like it
18:13But I mean it's interesting too because I think about I'm curious in terms of the because when I think of writing
18:20Yeah, and I wonder how you think of this as an actor too because so much about
18:24Dialogue and performance is rhythm. Yeah. Yeah, and I actually think that emotion is about rhythm, too
18:30Yes that that in order for for something to happen in a way that's emotional
18:34It's that moment that's holding and when the emotion comes it it almost always comes in a surprising way
18:39and I think there's something very rhythmic about what you did and
18:44I feel like writing is rhythmic and then you're in a way writing again with the camera
18:49Yeah, and then you have all the pieces. It's a weird thing, right you write and you're writing with words
18:54Yeah writing with images in your head, but you don't have them
18:56Yeah, then you've got to find them you work with an entire crew and it's like hey guys
19:00So I have this thing and it's the lizard the lizard look like what lens should we shoot the lizard?
19:04Oh, yeah, and you go on that process and then when you're done what you've done
19:09I think of the shooting period as a hunting gathering period
19:12I think that the the writing period the hunting gathering is the notebook and the ideas and like what's the connection here?
19:17How do these fit together? Then you've got a script. It's like going. Hey, I have something
19:21It's this is the idea from beginning to end
19:23Then you go out and you shoot it and then some days you're like going god that shot
19:28I had no idea that shot would be so good. Uh-huh. I was like, oh my god, that's not didn't work at all
19:32That's a disaster, right? Yeah, we have to lose that shot. What am I gonna do?
19:34Well, everything I thought that shot was so important and when you're done you then rewrite again in the editing
19:40Oh my god, all you have are the shots. Yeah, and you can do lots of things again thinking of the Coppola thing
19:46I always think of the thing in the Godfather where there's a moment where he's like, you're not too tired
19:49Are you Tom and you're like, there's a whole thing in the Godfather. You're going that scene did not begin that way
19:54That's not the way it goes at all. I'm gonna start going like oh, yeah, because then they had to rewrite it
19:58So there's an off-camera line you loop something you come in and then suddenly now we're past this transition now
20:03We can get into this thing
20:04Yeah curious as you got through the process what was editing like for you when you finally got to that? Yeah. Oh my god
20:10Yeah, I was gonna edit for like to almost two years
20:13Yeah
20:14I wasn't at it for a really long time and I think as most directors know and I was warned, you know
20:18You watch your assembly and you are just ready to but it kill yourself. I want to put myself in the trash
20:23So so what was that experience like so you what you sat down you're going first of all
20:27Did you think because I remember I had a friend of mine who is a really close friend of mine went to film school
20:33He's he's a brilliant director
20:34Yeah
20:34he got to make his first film before I made my first film and when I and I remember one day calling him from the
20:39Set and I was like, how did it go? And he goes
20:42Virtuoso, I was like really he goes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this the footage is great
20:46and then we went and watched the first assembly and
20:49Literally, it was like he was suicidal he was shaking and he goes I will never say virtuoso
20:56It was that kind of thing now the movie ended up being brilliant, but it was like that kind of thing
20:59What did you think when you were gonna watch it?
21:02Were you thinking after everything you've been through where you're like, this is gonna be great or were you nervous or what?
21:07I was nervous
21:07But it's still you still think you for some reason there's some delusion that you're gonna watch it and it's gonna be the movie
21:13Right, you know what?
21:14I mean because it's in your head and you shot all the shots and they go together and it's just not you know
21:19it's not been born yet, you know and
21:22It's it's really it was really rough. It did not work
21:25Yeah, it did not work for a very long time when you saw and the things that didn't work about it
21:30What was what struck you about what didn't work? I mean the story felt all over the place
21:34It didn't feel focused. Yep. There was a lack of tension
21:37Yeah, there was a lack of connection because I have so many characters too. It's like you jump around
21:42You don't know who to be connected to and who you following, you know, and because also it's a mystery
21:48Yeah, it's like it's so important to find that balance of what does the audience think is going on?
21:53What does the audience know is going on?
21:55What is the audience ahead of you?
21:56When do you want the audience to be with you?
21:57You know, it's like a very how to tease them that there's something here that you don't know yet
22:01But you better hang on to that. Yeah, I promise you something's coming back and then when to bring it back right all of that
22:05It's like this and so I realized the more you try and control a film
22:11Yeah, and try and make it what you think it was the worse it will be right, you know
22:15It's like having a child and saying, you know
22:17You're gonna be straight and you're gonna be a doctor and you're gonna live in Connecticut and that's what you're gonna be
22:22It's like that relationship might not be so great, right?
22:24but you have to allow it to show you what it wants to be and once I let that go and
22:29Listen to it versus trying to tell it what I want it to be
22:32It really fell into place, but you have to let your idea die. Sure, and that's really hard
22:36How much would you say?
22:38Because it's interesting thing because you can go through a process and you can change something entirely in the post
22:42Yeah, but would you say that the essence of what it is is what you intended or like what changed?
22:47What was what's different from where you thought when I'm gonna control this it's gonna be this and how I know it changed
22:53But would you say do you think the essence is what you were after?
22:55Yes
22:56I actually think it ended up being closer to what I wanted but I didn't understand it yet or something and like you you just
23:01Said like the question was I was still on that journey of answering the question
23:05So you're kind of figuring it out as you go along
23:07I also had this incredible blessing of the fact that everyone's wearing the same thing every day. Yeah
23:13Yeah, so all of a sudden I realize you restructured the film is documentary footage
23:16Okay, I can just rip this apart and I did right and I can do whatever I want structurally
23:22I have to forget about the script. So like I'm thinking of those when they're in the flowing white
23:26It's so beautifully cut. Yeah, you just burst throughout. Yeah, so it wasn't originally no
23:31That was that was like a scene that I just kind of was like, okay, we can steal that we can steal that and and
23:35even the concept of
23:36Okay, I have a character that's looking this way and then we have a shot of the moon
23:40We can make it looks like she's looking at sure. I'm like really manipulating the stuff can or something
23:44That's like it. Yeah, like what like you show like somebody looking and then you show a meal and you're like, oh hunger
23:47Yeah, exactly
23:48And you realize how much power you have in that way, too
23:51And it's it's hard because you know what they were really looking at and you have to kind of forget about that
23:55But being able to allow myself to to be playful that way right was was really help
24:01So then how but so to go from that moment of being terrified to what do we do now?
24:05How did you get over that hump? Like what was that? I mean, how did you work with your editor?
24:10What was the thing when you first were like going? Okay
24:12What did you do to restructure the film? I know you looked at it as documentary footage
24:15So, how did you did you start like?
24:18Cataloging it and going like I know I've got this I've got that like how did you start to rebuild it?
24:22I mean there were many different versions of it and it didn't work for a very long time
24:25Yeah, and then I think actually I got very lucky because we had finished the film
24:30It still wasn't working but it was it was it was time to stop sure and then the strike happened, right?
24:36And we knew we were gonna reshoot one scene at the end, right?
24:40and so all of a sudden I had this break yeah, and I realized that I had gone insane and
24:46Because I was in the edit every day all day. I just had completely lost perspective right and the moment I
24:54took a step back and
24:56watched some of my favorite films and just kind of like
24:59Let go for a second. Sure. I
25:02Was able to get a little perspective and I restructured the entire movie in my head Wow
25:07And then I went in and I was supposed to just prep for the reshoot. Yeah, I said to my editor
25:13I was like don't tell the studio but let's just do this
25:15I'm gonna restructure the entire movie Wow, and then I I did and then it started to and then it works. Yeah, that's amazing
25:21Yeah, it was crazy. That's really cool. It was mostly taking things away, right?
25:25And then getting the things that were extraneous. Yeah, that didn't matter focus the movie longer. It was so long
25:30I see
25:31Okay
25:31Focusing the movie right and then I was able to kind of like then I then I understood what the movie was
25:36You know what?
25:37I mean and like what mattered and what was interesting and what wasn't and right and then you can play with this like the
25:41Manipulation of the puzzle pieces, you know
25:52The other thing that I was gonna say just as it related to
25:55Again, everything being rhythmic dialogue
25:58Words and then shots and then cuts but then also your sound is incredibly like is that something that you got super into?
26:05Yes, he's really yes like articulated and it was like one of those things where it was like a transition and a pre-lap that takes
26:11You into this little detail and you're not seeing the thing that took you into that shot
26:14And then you suddenly you pay it off by seeing the thing and sound is very important to me
26:18Yeah
26:18And you know
26:19Maybe that's because I you know come from music and music is very important and the music in the film, too
26:23I have to say the rhythm of the music and the way it takes you through the sequences. It's very musical
26:27It's very musical, but I was gonna say also in terms of the staging
26:31Yeah, it's very musical in terms of the staging which is really I have to say it's so impressive like the way that they are
26:37They're almost dancing through shots. Like that was a that's a really cool thing you did
26:42So how was that something you knew you wanted to do or is that something you were discovering as like going?
26:47Oh, it'd be really cool to do this sort of as you've got these wonders to that
26:51You're playing with like where did all again?
26:54You're I know you're thinking from all of your inspirations and going this is what I here's here's PTA what he did or yeah
26:59Here's whoever inspired you but that really came through in a very striking way. I thank you
27:03I mean I was the one the idea with the the winners and and the and the edit was I
27:08Really wanted to play with these moments where they were, you know, they were they were wonders not just because winners are awesome
27:14But because these were moments that were uninterrupted. This is about memory, right?
27:18So it's this this is a full moment, you know
27:20And then everything else is really chopped up because we're missing information in between and so I wanted the audience to feel
27:26Like what these people were experiencing and you don't really know why it's so off-putting until you know what's going on
27:31I see and once we kind of found that language it allowed us to you know
27:36play with how do we get from one scene to the other and and you found that language in planning for your shot lists or
27:42You know, I found that language in post you're kidding. Yeah, it feels so intentional. Yeah, and it's exactly right because
27:48It is it does feel that way where it's disjointed in a way that you're trying to piece it together and then suddenly you go
27:53Through an experience. It's funny. It reminds me a little bit of like I remember we were doing Cloverfield
27:57We were trying to figure out the rules of the handycam. Yeah, and I remember JJ's one said to me
28:01He goes, oh, this is great because it's a handycam. You could always turn it off
28:04I'm like, oh, no, it's a handycam. It can never go off unless something makes it go off
28:08Yes, and so it was like the memory or the moment has to play so that's so cool that you found that I just
28:14We watched that movie too and it was so interesting because I realized watching that next to Batman and next to let me in
28:21Your shots are usually so composed and so controlled and I thought it was so interesting that you made this film
28:28That was so loose. Yeah, so chaotic. Yeah, and yet still had the same amount of precision
28:33Oh, that's cool. Really really hard. Yeah, it was really really but that was because it's about those rules
28:38Yeah, the rules that you found in post where you're going like wait memory feels like this
28:42yes, I tried to apply those rules to what the handycam thing would look like and then the idea of how the
28:49Footage might get recorded over and that I love you would jump back for a second to something like before
28:54Before you know, like the girl or something smiling at the camera for just yeah
28:58Yeah, it was really effective me. One of the big things too was I
29:01Just thought about handycams and I thought okay if we're gonna do this love story what I wanted the first image to be
29:06Was a loving look I wanted to look at that person
29:09That he felt he had lost and that he was gonna be trying to get back to and so that's the heart of the story
29:14Yeah, that's the heart of the story
29:15So it was like trying to find how the form of what you're doing is relating to the emotion of what you're trying to yes
29:20So that's that's really cool. But to answer your question about sound too
29:24That was also very related to the idea of memory, right?
29:27And when you think about memory you think about okay, you know, you don't remember things accurately
29:32You remember what impacted you so it's like the sound of the vape
29:35You know, I remember or the sound of the rain against the glass on a day that something horrible happened, you know
29:40It's like that's and are those things you found in post or were you thinking about those things at the writing or when were you?
29:45Think I mean I was thinking about it, but it was something I really found in post
29:49But I also knew that my favorite films, you know, I think very rhythmically, you know
29:53Even when I write I'm like, you know ding pop that I love the idea of like sound and rhythm. It's very important
29:59Yeah, but but yeah, I was I mean it brought the movie to life
30:06I knew it
30:09Eight seasons, let's talk about let's talk about casting. How do you feel about casting?
30:13I mean, especially when you're doing something like a superhero film where you know
30:16There's been so many other versions of the film and there's so much pressure around that and you know, what's scary is
30:24We were doing the 11th, I think the 11th live-action Batman film so somehow
30:30You have to put that aside and go like wait. We have to do something
30:35That feels for me. I have to find a way a personal way into everything like when I was doing apes
30:40for me
30:41That story I loved apes as a kid
30:43and of course the franchise was interesting to me and I love what Rupert Wyatt had done and yet
30:49for me, I was really drawn to my son was just learning how to speak and
30:54he was
30:55When those words would come it would come they would come with this tremendous
30:59Urgency and when I watched Andy in rise and he has that moment where he goes no and you feel like the no
31:06He's been waiting to say his whole life. My son's words were like that and it was this weird reminder. Oh, yeah
31:13He's an animal. We are animals and to me that idea of
31:19Fathers and sons and about exploring animal nature. I was like, this is gonna be so exciting
31:24So for me everything has to be personal and I think I had to find a personal way
31:30Into Batman and then think about how somebody could bring something personal to me
31:35So like in looking for you and looking for Rob
31:38you're always looking for like is there an internal life that's going to
31:43Take what this story is and somehow make us feel like we're peering into it
31:48Yeah, I just feel like you're getting a glimpse into what this person's
31:53Struggle is yeah, it's really I mean, that's what all drama is, right?
31:57Midler's latest it's all about the Wayne's
31:59If we don't stand up, no one will
32:02You got a lot of cats. I have a thing about stripes to be totally honest when I was writing. I
32:09Was thinking of Rob like that was it was I was like popped into your head
32:13Well, because it was a weird thing
32:14You know when I was writing one of the things that helped me to find the tone
32:18Was that I was listening to Nirvana. Mm-hmm, and I was listening to something in the way and I was like
32:23Oh, I just started thinking about okay
32:25Here's a guy who lost his parents and it's so fucked up his life that he spent he can't cope
32:30So this is all about a guy coping with something that he can never fix
32:34so this guy's got tremendous control issues and I just thought of
32:38It made me think of like
32:40You know
32:41the children of Princess Diana like the idea of losing
32:44Like the Wayans were big figures and then the idea of being this sort of like orphaned prince and for some reason
32:51Thinking of I don't know why but that made a connection to Kurt Cobain for me. I thought about him
32:57I thought about Gus Van Sant's last days and the idea of him in that kind of rotting manner
33:03And I was like, oh and I just thought oh there's kind of like this rock vibe to it
33:07And then somewhere in there someone told me to watch. I mean, I'd love Rob
33:11my friend James did this movie lost city of Z and Rob is in it with a beard and when he showed me the
33:16Cut of the movie I was like who the hell is that like and he doesn't look like Rob at all
33:20And I was like that guy's amazing. He goes that's Rob Pattinson
33:23I was like what and so then somebody said to me you should watch good time
33:26And when I watched good time, I was like, I think that's the only person I could imagine is this Batman
33:31Wow, and I was literally saying to Dylan I was saying, you know
33:36What if he doesn't want to do it because I don't think
33:39That I know what it is if it's not him and I remember talking to the studio and all of that
33:44And of course we went on a search and did all I was gonna be open to everything
33:47But that was one of those things where I just happened and it was one of those things too
33:51That was weirdly faded because then it turned out that he was I had no idea
33:57Obsessed with Batman and kind of tracking us. That's the thing you're tapping into. Yeah
34:01There's a weird thing collective consciousness weird thing out there
34:04And so somehow it was like we were looking for each other
34:07And then the same thing happened with you where where like I was really drawn to your work
34:12But I didn't know like the big thing is like well
34:15What's gonna happen with your chemistry and the fact that it's interesting because we talked before you're saying like you guys knew each other
34:19You weren't necessarily as close as you are now
34:21But there was a thing where the where the energy between you two that day that we did that test
34:27I was like, oh, I want to watch this. This is really exciting
34:31It was just like and you came in too and you were so I think you've talked about this
34:36but
34:37you just came in there to get it like it was one of these things were like you and I met and you had
34:42So many great ideas and I was like, oh, I love all of these ideas
34:45This is gonna be so interesting to see
34:47when you come in what that's gonna be like with you opposite Rob because obviously that energy really really matters and
34:52You were just all business that day you came in and you did a number of tests that day and you came in and I
34:58Was like whoa, like it was just like and that was exciting
35:01It was really what's exciting is when you know in
35:03Casting that somebody is really wanting something and coming after it in a way where they're bringing themselves to it
35:09and I felt right from the beginning from our first conversation that you were bringing yourself because you because of the things you were saying
35:15About strays and the personal things and you say I remember you saying to me you said oh well
35:20You know, I really think the stray things would be great and I was like, I do love that idea
35:25But I don't know how we'll ever get that line in and you go
35:27Oh, that's that's so easy because then you just have him look down at the cats and go got a lot of cat
35:34Great and it is like one of my favorite moments in the movie
35:37So it was like I was like, okay, so you're a writer as well as an actor and a director
35:41Anyway, so I was looking for that connection to between the two of them
35:44It's not just that, you know, he's Batman and she's Catwoman, you know about he's collecting strays
35:48Yeah, and he is a stray, you know, but you know, even with that audition that day, of course
35:53yes, I came in I wanted the part, but I also remember speaking to you about your vision and
35:58Falling in love with you as a filmmaker and I wanted to contribute to what you wanted to make and I thought to myself
36:05I'm not really going in to
36:08Try and win this part. I actually think that the
36:11Kindest thing I can do is to actually give Matt an idea of what it is to work with me
36:18Yeah, you know because going in and just like saying like yes, I can do that. No
36:21No, I what is it to work with me? And is that something you want? Yeah, you know, well you did that. Thank you
36:26What about for you? How would how in terms of casting? Did you know like Naomi like did how how did you arrive at your cast?
36:33What was that process?
36:34I mean Shan was the first person I thought of for Slater King and I don't know where that came is similar to you
36:38Where it's like just as you're writing going like yeah
36:40I was like that would be interesting and I knew that the character needed to be somebody who we trusted or think that we trust
36:46And so especially because you don't believe Naomi getting on that plane if it's someone that sure immediately, you know insidious in some way
36:53so I felt like it would be so interesting to take somebody who
36:58You know
36:58We all feel like we know and we all feel safe and comfortable with and I wanted to weaponize his charisma, right?
37:05And and then I also just thought okay, you know, it'd be so fun to watch him give this kind of performance
37:10You know, I've never seen him do something like that. What do you say?
37:16Mm-hmm
37:18Relieving
37:21Whenever you want that monologue he gives at the end when he says, I'm sorry, I sorry thing is wild, you know
37:26Like that's a crazy. What was that? Like shooting that like did you?
37:29Cuz he was he seemed so that was quite a moment. Like what talked about shooting that
37:34I think that was a rewrite that we kind of or we wrote it
37:36we rewrote that monologue like the night before and the I'm sorry thing was a last-minute idea and
37:43Even the idea of him looking into camera. I think we only did that once like maybe the last take I said, okay
37:48Now you say into camera, right? Keep going
37:50Yeah, and so it was something that we kind of found in the in the moment and it's I mean it was beautiful what he did
37:56Yeah, yeah, but yeah
37:57I felt like he could do it and also hadn't been given the chance to do something like right and then with Naomi I had
38:03Just seen her work and I needed someone's face to be
38:07So expressive because so much about that character is about her face is saying one thing and her eyes are saying another
38:12and that's a hard thing to do and her face is so beautiful and expressive and then I'd watched a few of her films and
38:18I couldn't even tell that was the same actress sometimes, you know, she really is a chameleon
38:22And so I just thought okay
38:24She can do it all because this film is it's drama and did you did you give it to her?
38:28Did she audition or how did we had a meeting? You had a meeting?
38:31And I we had a meeting
38:32I'm just worried
38:32I'm just I'm just curious as it as an actor who's gone through the process of all that what was like
38:36For you to be on the other side and say like, okay, so I'm gonna go through this process
38:40So in your case you were seeking out actors who you just wanted to have a connection to or well
38:45I I had seen enough of her work where I just knew she was capable
38:47Yeah, you know what? I mean? I she can do drama. She can do comedy
38:50She can do it all right
38:51And then when we spoke it was more about I think similar to our experience even though obviously I auditioned
38:56But she understood on a fundamental level what the movie was right, you know, and it wasn't just about her character
39:02She understood the film and the tone and why this movie should be made. She really understood it, right?
39:08And I thought you know, okay, this is who you want. You want a partner in crime?
39:10You want someone that's gonna go to the end of the earth with you, right?
39:13And I and I felt that from her so then when you were directing the actors, would you say?
39:18How is that? How is that experience just did like from having you know perform so much did the way you think as an actor?
39:25I've actually the answer is gonna be yes
39:26But the way that you think is an actor informed the way that you would direct someone
39:29Did you try how how did you arrive because what I've always found and I'm curious on your
39:34Movie for your work of doing this like I always find that
39:37My experience has always been that I have to be a different person for everyone
39:40Yes, and is that what it's like for you? I didn't I had to find that along the way, you know
39:44It's kind of like you realize okay that person doesn't doesn't respond to this, right?
39:48Or this is this person's crutch or right, you know, this person needs to be told that you're doing a great job, right?
39:54No, it's like everyone needs something different
39:56Yeah
39:56And so it's like yeah
39:57You have to spend time with the actors and and learn how to speak each of their languages
40:02And then I think that my only issue with the fact that I'm an actress and I told my actors beforehand is that I couldn't
40:08Help but give line read, right and I was like, I know I know this is kind of a no-no
40:12But it's just with some lines
40:14It's just you know
40:15And Naomi and I and Audrea too is just such a quick and easy way to write get to what we needed to get to
40:20Right, even though I know some actors hate that but yeah learning everyone's language is is really interesting
40:25Yeah, yeah, and did you like did you enjoy that process? I loved it. Yeah, I loved it and
40:30It was it was it's funny because as an as an actor I realized like how little actors know about what's going on, right?
40:37You know, it's we're so protected, you know when we're sitting in our trailers
40:41I don't know what I thought was happening on set. Yeah, I thought people were just kind of I don't know what I wasn't thinking
40:47About it, but I realized if your time every time someone says like, you know
40:50We'll be ready in five minutes and right three hours later. Sure. It's because something's gone horribly wrong
40:55Yes, exactly
40:56Right and you're just you know, you're sitting in your trailer going like and that means I might not get my scene or it was
41:02More that as an actor you're kind of just wondering you just want to get out of your chair
41:05Of course, and you just want you're just like why is it taking so right?
41:07And you never think about the fact that it's because it's like there's a fire on set, right?
41:12And I'm so thankful now as an actor to have the information of all the work that goes into
41:19Making a film right before we show up on set and ask for a latte
41:23It's like there's so much work that goes into it and and yeah, I'm just I'm very thankful to have the curtain, right?
41:29What was the thing that shocked you the most about that kind of thing?
41:31I mean like obviously like every day you've got your ad coming up to you going. Okay, this is what we're doing today
41:36Yeah, how much time this is where you are? Yeah, what was the hardest like what was that experience like?
41:40I mean even going like, you know prep in terms of you know
41:44Location scouting and all that like the work that goes into
41:48Sometimes I show up on a set as an actor and you know
41:51I want to do what I want to do and I want to like figure out the scene and yeah
41:54And I don't realize that the director and the DP have lived with this space and had this idea for months
42:00Sure, you know the amount of prep that goes into it and then also having to kind of be open to okay
42:06What are the actors want to do, you know, so that's a really interesting dance
42:10But I mean, yeah, everything just requires an insane amount of prep and then everything still goes wrong
42:15It doesn't even matter and right. Yeah, it's it's a really it's a really crazy process
42:20so do you have a sense of
42:22You want to keep doing this? Obviously I do
42:25Yeah, I love it
42:25And do you have a sense of like what you want that next movie to be or do you think you'll go through the same?
42:29Or you what do you think is next? What would you want to do directorially?
42:32No, I have a few ideas part of me wants to pivot in terms of genre a little bit even though like the thriller
42:40Genre is so fun to me. It's always been kind of what I was interested in
42:44Yeah, but then part of me is you know, I'm like I should just do a rom-com and see what happens, right?
42:49So, I don't know but I've been right. I have a few different ideas
42:52You know that I'm kind of flirting with and kind of seeing what's what sticks, right?
42:56So you're in that beginning stage of yeah
42:59Yeah, but it's so and it's so daunting, you know, but it's exciting and I yeah, I definitely want to keep I want to keep
43:05Directing. Well, you have to thank you. Yeah
43:08I was like blown away. I was like, I mean I told you I was like
43:10It was it was nerve-wracking for people that I love and respect so much to see the film
43:15But when you called me out well for me to go going, okay, so I'm gonna see her movie
43:18I don't know but I will say though I had
43:20Because I had done that one interview the interviewer had said to me. Have you seen the movie?
43:26I said I haven't seen the movie
43:27I said I know that Zoe's gonna be really really a great director because I just knew that again from our experience
43:32But I didn't know and she was like, it's so good and I was like, oh my god
43:35So I was really really excited to see it. And then thank you. Thank you for setting it up for me
43:40Yeah, thank you for watching
43:42I told you at the screening room where you had it set up
43:44It was in a place that I'd never been to before and the experience because you're in that state of mind
43:49I was I couldn't find my way out. Yeah, it was really disoriented
43:54You had created that state of mind. You actually did that. So thank you for disorienting
43:58Yeah, anytime anytime and what about you? I mean you're writing right now. Yeah, we're writing. We're finishing the script
44:04We're doing you know, I mean, you know, I'm a speed demon. I'm really really fast
44:08We're just trying to to make our way through and we're gonna be doing
44:13Morning next year. We'll be doing you know and more of these shows because everyone's freaking out over the penguin, which is yeah
44:18I mean, you know, we're talking to Lauren about doing another season. So super excited about that. That was a really special experience
44:23Yeah, people are loving it. Yeah, it's been that has been really exciting. Yeah, it's been really exciting. Yeah
44:28So we're just turns to go home. I just feel really fortunate, you know
44:32It's like one of these things where I think you know, these are characters that
44:37That don't they don't belong to me. Yeah, they belong to the world, right?
44:40I mean and pretty soon they won't even belong to Warner Brothers
44:42I guess because it's the kind of thing where I think it'll become public domain or whatever
44:45But the whole idea will be these characters. It really comes down to whether or not you can approach them in a way
44:52that I guess expresses
44:55Something personal. Yeah something fresh and also something that feels like
45:00You have something to say something something to express with it so that you're not seeing the same thing same thing over
45:07That's hard it is hard
45:08but I do think that's why the the marriage between you and Batman right now is such an incredible combination because
45:15Watching a bunch of your films and in order the other day you have this incredible skill at you know
45:21Working with these heightened ideas whether it be monsters and end of the world or vampires or Batman
45:26Or apes and they all feel so human and so grounded and it's a very difficult thing to do
45:34I mean, that's the thing I try to do. That's exactly that is what you do
45:37I mean, I think what I do is I go
45:38Okay, so you get one thing?
45:39Yeah
45:40And that one thing is kind of heightened and the idea is well what if and the whole thing is the magic because it actually
45:43Allows you to experience like what if this happened?
45:45What is you know, and it takes the audience on I think a much deeper journey. It's yeah
45:50It's a it's a really incredible skill. Well, I look forward to doing more with you and watching more of what you do
45:56Thank you, man. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah best how cool. Yeah directors on directors. That's us. It's us
46:04You