Jon M. Chu ("Wicked") and Shawn Levy ("Deadpool & Wolverine") sit down to discuss a shared love for musicals, the challenges of working on films based on beloved franchises, and how their paths unknowingly crossed in the 90's.
Variety Directors on Directors presented by "Nickel Boys"
Variety Directors on Directors presented by "Nickel Boys"
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00:00And I remember I saw Wicked before it went on Broadway,
00:03when it was in San Francisco, when they were workshopping it.
00:05Somehow you beat me there too.
00:07Wow, all these origin stories.
00:09You're crushing this chat.
00:19Hi.
00:20Hey.
00:20John.
00:21Sean.
00:22It's the first time we've met.
00:23It is the first time we've met, but I'm instantly comfortable because
00:27I thought I was a nerd for pre-thinking about things I wanted to ask you about,
00:31but you actually out-nerded me with paper notes, hard copy notes.
00:36I think it's called insecurity.
00:37I was like, oh no, I can't go into that, not know what to say.
00:40But also are you a bit, I know I'm a bit of a nerd for prep when I make a movie.
00:45Are you that way when you make a movie?
00:46Absolutely.
00:47I prep, prep, prep.
00:48Yeah.
00:49But on the day, I try to let the movie speak to me.
00:52And that is-
00:53It feels like what you're-
00:54Yeah, I mean, that's, don't you find, I know, I don't know,
00:56you've made like, how many movies you made?
00:58Like seven?
00:59This will be my 10th.
01:00Okay.
01:01And I think I've made 15 or something.
01:03And I have found exactly what you said, which is I need to prep so I can sleep the night
01:09before I go to shoot.
01:10That's-
01:10But if I've prepped, I can be loose on the day.
01:13You know, we've crossed paths.
01:15Well, I don't know if we've actually crossed paths, but we've crossed worlds many, many
01:18years ago on the secret world of Alex Mack.
01:21How did we cross paths there?
01:23And how are you going that old school?
01:25Were you alive?
01:26I was an extra one summer.
01:29My friend was Larissa Olenek.
01:32Yes.
01:32And she went to my high school and I wanted to get into movies.
01:35And the only way you can is to see it was go be an extra.
01:38So I went on set that summer.
01:40This is crazy.
01:40It was the best experience.
01:42And there I am right behind her.
01:44This is crazy.
01:45Please someone zoom in.
01:46I don't get to talk about this ever.
01:48Wow.
01:48So there I am.
01:50I don't know where the camera is.
01:50That is unbelievable.
01:52Right there.
01:53For people who are maybe under 30 and watching this, there was this Nickelodeon show called
01:58The Secret World of Alex Mack.
02:00That was my first gig out of film school.
02:02I went to USC grad school.
02:03You went undergrad.
02:05And I got a half hour episode of Nickelodeon for Alex Mack.
02:09And I remember it's funny.
02:11We were talking about prep before because I was so like, I need my shot list.
02:16I got to have my shot list.
02:17I got to know what the shots are.
02:18And I now look back at it and realize, oh, I was so locked into the plan that maybe I
02:24wasn't as open as I've since become to a better idea surprising me.
02:30And in fact, now I go to work hoping that a better idea, a better moment of performance,
02:35better angle, et cetera, that that surprises me.
02:37But wow, I guess our paths did cross.
02:39I never get to talk to people about that experience.
02:42So it's really fun.
02:42Well, do you know that experience was I that was so it was so I remember it was Larissa's
02:49first kiss.
02:49Oh, yes.
02:50And she and it was in the show.
02:52And I remember being like, do you rehearse it?
02:55Is that like, how does this work?
02:57And then I ended up getting a DGA award nomination for that for like children's television.
03:02And I remember thinking like, oh, wow, all the dreams coming true.
03:05And then, of course, you realize, oh, no, it's you know what?
03:07There's no straight lines in these careers.
03:09It's kind of ebbs and flows and takes you to surprising places you don't expect.
03:14But that's why I like talking.
03:15I don't have a lot of like director friends to talk about.
03:18And even if I do, I don't talk about like how we process the stuff and how we do it
03:23in our journey.
03:23So it's really nice.
03:24Well, how I mean, speaking of just since you've given me such a beautiful.
03:28Sorry about that.
03:29We're going to follow an unexpected idea.
03:31Thinking of origins and early chapters, how what did you expect your career to be?
03:38And how is that borne out or now divergent in the career you've got?
03:43Well, I grew up loving movies.
03:45I grew up at a Chinese restaurant in the Bay Area.
03:47People have a different perspective of what a director is.
03:50Like I thought, oh, you're directing.
03:51I was looking at behind the scenes footage of Hook and see Spielberg on there.
03:55And kids are jumping in the water.
03:57I'm like, oh, yeah, that's I want to play all day like that.
03:59And and I did like wedding videos growing up and bar mitzvah videos and just like
04:04forcing my friends to be in my videos.
04:06And so I think in a weird way, going to USC, I learned that it wasn't like a craft school.
04:12It wasn't like, hey, here's how you use the tools.
04:14It was like, how do you become emotionally available for your stories to come out of that?
04:19You you learn that in film school?
04:21Because that's no, no, I'll tell you, I not to be insulting to USC.
04:24That was an incredible experience for me, too.
04:27But I had gone to I was I'd been a theater major at Yale.
04:30And so I had always been around theater and and dramaturgy and actors and performance.
04:36And I kind of I came in.
04:38I found USC to be really helpful in giving me technical knowledge.
04:42But for you, it sounds like it also gave you emotional knowledge.
04:45And that realization that different, too, because it was undergrad and grad.
04:49That's maybe a different thing.
04:51I was coming in first time living on my own first.
04:54Didn't know who I was, who my friends would be.
04:56And so I was also finding, like, just what I thought about the world.
05:00And a lot was being revealed to me at that time.
05:02And was there I remember hearing was Spielberg and early like supporter of yours.
05:09Did you have a moment like I was a bit describing with my Alex Mac episode where you're like,
05:13I've arrived.
05:14The dreams are coming true.
05:16And then you're like, oh, wait, where did the dreams go?
05:18What's happening?
05:19It totally happened.
05:19So tell me how how did you and Steven cross paths?
05:23So I was at SC and I was doing my thesis film.
05:26And I recruited this woman who was a semester older than me, Alice Brooks,
05:31to actually shoot my first musical.
05:34We shot it over the summer.
05:35And I graduated.
05:36And that short film is somehow some way this is before YouTube, before I didn't go online.
05:41This is on VHS tape or DVD.
05:44Got to Spielberg's desk.
05:45And I got that phone call, that crazy phone call that said, I want to meet.
05:49And I love musicals.
05:51So it was crazy.
05:52And so I got to meet with him.
05:54And you're what, 23?
05:57Yeah, 22 years old.
05:59Come to the set.
06:00So I came to sit with him at set and watch him direct.
06:03And we actually set up a script that me and my friends were working on at DreamWorks at the time.
06:09My first pitch was with Steven, with Adam Goodman, who was there at the time,
06:15Mike DeLuca, who was there at the time, and Walter and Lori.
06:18So that was my first pitch.
06:19Power room.
06:20That's a power room before you even realized how scary a room that was.
06:24And my pitch was crazy.
06:25It was like Moulin Rouge.
06:25We brought in a chest.
06:26And we had wigs and hats and acted out the whole thing in images.
06:30But they bought it.
06:31But I didn't make my first movie until five years later.
06:34And I think it's like that initial thing of like, oh, I made it, is really hard.
06:39Because you won the lottery.
06:40I didn't make an independent film.
06:42I didn't work on commercials.
06:43I didn't make music videos.
06:44I had no context.
06:46And so I went in there, kind of freaked out.
06:48I couldn't get the movie actually made.
06:50For years, I think it was about like, do I even deserve to be here?
06:54And those first movies actually that I got were Step Up to the Streets,
06:58which was supposed to be a direct-to-DVD movie.
07:00Was that the sequel to Step Up or the sequel to the sequel?
07:02No, that was the sequel to Step Up.
07:04OK.
07:04But at that time, it was like, I got to take something.
07:06And that was sort of the start into my studio movie world.
07:10Alphaba, you can room with Miss Galinda.
07:16What I...
07:17Having just seen Wicked and loved it.
07:19And I say that with the very high bar of being a crazy...
07:24Like, I could blame it on the fact that I have four daughters.
07:27But the truth is, I'm just a nerd for musicals and an extra huge nerd for Wicked.
07:32I've seen that show over a dozen times.
07:34And I think the movie is incredible.
07:36But that theme that you just articulated of, do I deserve to be here, is Alphaba at Shiz.
07:44And I'm wondering, were you conscious of that movie, which predated both of us, right?
07:52Like, that show has lived and flourished for over a decade.
07:57Were you conscious that it was expressing things that are in you?
08:01Yeah, absolutely.
08:02In fact, when I watch Deadpool and Wolverine, I feel that same thing with Wolverine.
08:08Why does this Logan deserve to be here?
08:10Why is this the Logan?
08:11I love that.
08:12I've heard you say that in the past.
08:13And I think that's something that's very universal.
08:15I think that's something.
08:16And I remember I saw Wicked before it went on Broadway,
08:20when it was in San Francisco, when they're workshopping it.
08:22Somehow you beat me there, too.
08:24Wow.
08:25All these origin stories.
08:26You're crushing this chat.
08:28I was like, patient zero, I felt like, because I knew nothing about it.
08:31Because I saw it on Broadway with Kristen and...
08:33Kristen and Idina, but it was just in a...
08:35With that cast?
08:35With that cast, yes.
08:36Okay.
08:37So that was crazy to watch because I knew nothing.
08:39And I was like, Wizard of Oz means so much to my parents, who were immigrants,
08:43who came here, the yellow brick road, the wizard behind the curtain.
08:46This was the American dream.
08:48This was cinema.
08:49This was all those things.
08:50And I was going to USC at the time.
08:52So I flew back.
08:53My mom was like, we have tickets to the show.
08:56And we used to go to that show every weekend.
08:58Watching that blew my mind.
08:59Your parents would take you to theater every weekend?
09:01Yes, yes.
09:02Were you...
09:03So were you already super into musicals as a genre?
09:07Definitely.
09:08That's why John M. Chu.
09:09Because I saw George M. or Yankee Doodle Danny, and it was George M. Cohen.
09:15And I was like, my middle name...
09:16I was young.
09:17I said, my middle name is M.
09:18I could just be called John M.
09:20So everything I'd sign at school was John M.
09:22I literally wondered about the initial because I thought, wait,
09:25was there someone already in the DGA named John Chu?
09:28So the M was also inspired.
09:30Yes.
09:30And it's on all the wedding videos that I did and all the Bar Mitzvahs.
09:33So when you get into the DGA, you have to write down what your name is.
09:38Jonathan Chu, the proper name.
09:40Or Chu or...
09:41Oh, but John M. Chu.
09:43That's what I always wanted to do.
09:44So that's funny.
09:46But yeah, and I think Elphaba, that character absolutely spoke to me.
09:50In a weird way, Galinda as well.
09:51You want to be Elphaba.
09:53You want to see her burst into her power.
09:56And yet we're all sort of Galinda too.
09:58Are we ready?
09:59When you know the truth, are you ready to pop your own bubble and face the uncomfortable?
10:03And I mean, what I thought really came across,
10:07and I mean, a lot of things came across in your film,
10:09but this idea that Galinda wants to be special,
10:13but she doubts and questions whether she actually is.
10:17And I do feel, I mean, look, we meet a lot of creative people in our jobs.
10:22And I remember once, I think it was like Denzel Washington,
10:25I watched some interview where he's like, the dream doesn't make you special.
10:29It's what are you going to do after that?
10:31Galinda goes there with that dream of studying magic and having those gifts,
10:37but deep down, she questions whether she does.
10:40And I have found myself, I'm sure you have too, that with experience comes
10:45not only a facility with the tools, but a confidence that you, A, deserve to be here.
10:51Yeah.
10:52And that you actually have those abilities to support the dream
10:58that clearly we both started with.
10:59When did you know you had those?
11:01Or when you started, how insecure were you?
11:05I mean, I think, I mean, it's funny because I just last night
11:08finished shooting my last scene after a decade of Stranger Things.
11:13So I flew back late last night and I've thought about that show that,
11:17you know, I've been a part of for all these years.
11:19And everyone talks about, you know, like they'll talk about with Wicked,
11:23the special effects and, you know, the songs and the choreography,
11:26but at its heart is the heart.
11:29And with Stranger Things, that same thing of,
11:31this is a group of people who really questioned their value,
11:37who find each other and who find superpowers in connection.
11:43And so that idea has always been really compelling to me.
11:48From what I know about your background, I think you had a pretty,
11:51it sounds like you had obviously a very specific story,
11:54but parents who were supportive and who never did anything but,
11:59I guess, nurture your sense of your own worth.
12:01Yeah.
12:02You know, I had a divorced household, an alcoholic mom,
12:06and it really was like, okay, this is,
12:09I want to build ideas of the life I wish I was living.
12:13Everybody knows me.
12:16I'm the Wolverine.
12:17Yes, you are.
12:20And I'm gonna need you to come with me right now.
12:23I see now a lot of the work I've done are aspirational
12:27and about this dream that the right connections,
12:31the right relationships,
12:32and this is really what Deadpool and Wolverine is about.
12:34That last line, for instance, which was one of the first lines I wrote,
12:38sometimes the people we save, they save us right back.
12:41I very much felt as a younger person that I was looking to be saved.
12:46And I ended up finding the right spouse when I was so young.
12:51I didn't even know.
12:52How old were you?
12:53I met her on my student film at USC.
12:56It happens at USC on student films.
12:58It all comes out at USC.
12:59I was 24 and I was looking for someone to produce my USC thesis film.
13:05And as we both know, producing a short is a fairly thankless job
13:11because even in success,
13:12it's not like the producer gets a career the next day, right?
13:16Directors, we do all right.
13:17We get, frankly, an outsize.
13:19A call from Spielberg sometimes.
13:20Well, yeah, right.
13:21Like if the glory comes,
13:23it comes inappropriately with tonnage to the filmmaker,
13:27producers less.
13:28But my wife, Serena, produced my student film.
13:31So I have never lived one day in this job as a filmmaker
13:37without sharing it with Serena.
13:39And it really is that feeling that,
13:40oh, I saved her from the wounds that she had early on and she saved me.
13:46And I think that that theme, which, by the way,
13:49I could be reductive and say Wicked is exploring the same thing.
13:52Elphaba and Glinda save each other.
13:55Absolutely.
13:55And by the way, it's one reason I'm excited for part two
13:58because I want to see what happens next, even though I know.
14:01So when you started then, what was the first thing you actually...
14:05So I came out of film school.
14:08I made a student film called Broken Record.
14:12It was a coming of age story about two 13-year-olds
14:14living in a small town where nothing exciting ever happens.
14:17They get married to get into the Guinness Book of World Records.
14:20And this is in the mid-90s when every one of my classmates
14:24was making dark Tarantino derivations.
14:28And I made this funny, sweet, ultimately kind of warm-hearted,
14:33romantic comedy with 13-year-olds.
14:36And it led to...
14:37But it was not the cool choice at the time.
14:40And I remember many classmates saying, you know,
14:42how are you going to get work?
14:43Like your stuff, like this is pretty soft.
14:46And that word, it irked me for a long time
14:48because I got Nickelodeon episodes and it led to Disney Channel
14:52and it led to my first movie, Big Fat Liar.
14:55And then I did like a decade plus as the family comedy guy.
15:01Which were fantastic.
15:02You know what, I'm not complaining, right?
15:04It was like this...
15:05It led to Cheaper By The Dozen and the night museum movies.
15:08There were years where I was grateful for my success,
15:11but I really questioned whether I would ever get to tell
15:15the diverse kinds of tonalities and stories that I love
15:20as an audience member.
15:22And not to bring it back to kind of cloyingly to Spielberg,
15:26but in the midst of all those family comedies,
15:30Real Steel was really this revelatory experience.
15:34Not only because Steven, executive producer,
15:37and I got to spend time and really kind of just sit at the knee
15:41and drink in the experience and the wisdom,
15:44but that was my first glimmer of,
15:46oh wow, directing different kinds of films
15:50forces us as directors to use different muscles.
15:53And I know if I look at your filmography,
15:55from the sequels that you did to Asians,
15:58to the movie you did with Lynn,
16:00and now of course Wicked, it's not a straight line, right?
16:04And it maybe took you longer and a more circuitous path
16:09to what I assume is a pretty dream come true kind of moment.
16:13But people, we all come into this thinking,
16:16oh, that is my dream, I shall go there.
16:19And I think the people who really get messed up in their youth
16:21are the ones who think it's going to be linear.
16:25And it really is kind of the curves and the disappointments.
16:28I was going to ask you, by the way,
16:30this may be a weird question,
16:31what is a disappointment, whether creative or outcome,
16:36is there a disappointment that comes to mind
16:38that taught you something important?
16:41Well, one, I love what you're talking about your journey,
16:43because again, I don't talk to a lot of directors
16:46about the psychology of being a director
16:49and what people expect you to know the answers
16:51or expect you to be what kind of artist are you
16:54and they put you in a category.
16:56And part of my self-conscious
16:58was I just wanted to be a director,
16:59not a Asian director or any put me into any category.
17:03And so I love it when you were in this family film space
17:07and that is an amazing space to be in,
17:10how much joy you put into this world.
17:11And yet you're still self-conscious about that
17:14and how maybe other filmmakers see that.
17:16I felt that in film school.
17:17I felt that like I love to make joyful movies.
17:20That's the movies I grew up on.
17:21I love movies that take you to another place
17:23and that have love and not naive.
17:25And maybe at first in those movies that I made
17:27had a naivete to it,
17:29but you learn quickly about life coming to LA
17:32trying to make it in the Hollywood business.
17:33And so when I look at my movies and my journey,
17:37I often stop and think like,
17:40how film school specifically,
17:42are you not artsy enough
17:44if you're not talking about blood and guts
17:46and murder and whatever, like drugs.
17:48Your movies, Spielberg movies, Zemeckis movies,
17:52they were all sort of this light in the horizon
17:54to say like, it's okay.
17:55You can put this into the universe.
17:57It's important.
17:58Ron Howard spoke at our graduation
18:00and he said, protect the optimism.
18:02I remember on the first night at the museum,
18:05Chris Columbus, who was my producer.
18:07And Chris was the king of the family genre
18:11in the generation when I was coming up.
18:14And so I remember I sat down with him
18:16and I learned a lot about producing from Chris
18:19and later from Steven,
18:20both of whom really showed me
18:23that you gotta let the filmmaker
18:24have the space to breathe.
18:26And yet you have to be there to support and backstop,
18:28which is the part of producing I love.
18:30But Chris said two things.
18:32I don't know if they'll resonate for you.
18:33One was when I was prepping the movie,
18:36I was freaked out
18:37because I had never done a visual effect.
18:38I was like, Pink Panther, cheaper by the dozen.
18:41I didn't know anything.
18:42And he said, your job right now isn't to know the how.
18:46You're gonna be surrounded by people who know how.
18:48Your job is to be clear about the what.
18:51What do you want your movie to be?
18:55If you're specific and clear about that,
18:57people will support and figure out the how
19:00and eventually you gain fluency,
19:02as I'm sure you have.
19:03But so the clarity of that
19:06and the kind of critical need to be decisive
19:09as a leader, as a filmmaker,
19:10that I learned early.
19:12I'm sure you have too.
19:13But the other one was after Night Museum hit big,
19:15I was like, now I'm gonna be edgy.
19:17I'm gonna have dark thrillers and noir horror
19:20and whatever the fuck.
19:21And I remember Chris said,
19:24why are you running from what you are?
19:28Why are you discounting this thing
19:30that you know how to do
19:31just because it comes naturally to you?
19:33And it took me many years
19:35to actually internalize that wisdom.
19:38And ever since I have,
19:40which really has been in the last kind of many years
19:43with Free Guy and Adam Project and Deadpool Wolverine,
19:46I feel that I'm not only doing work
19:48that I'm more gratified by,
19:50but I'm also enjoying my life a lot more.
19:52That's so nice.
19:52So I'm sure that you've felt that too.
19:54It's that value, your value of your story.
19:57I remember when I was struggling of getting a movie made
20:02and I didn't know where else to go
20:03and everyone was already inviting me to speak at USC
20:05and I hadn't even made my first movie.
20:07It's just because the trade said I was making a movie.
20:08What were you doing once the Steven musical failed to gel?
20:13Yes.
20:13What did you do?
20:14How did you make a living?
20:15What did you do every day?
20:16Well, at that time I was pair play on a movie
20:18that never got made, Bye Bye Birdie.
20:21And so I can't even get pair play now.
20:23So at that time there was a different era.
20:26Oh, it was a different era.
20:27So that kept me afloat.
20:29I didn't live off that much anyway.
20:30It was fine.
20:32And I was developing a lot.
20:33I had like three projects at Warner Brothers,
20:35a project at Sony.
20:36I was working a lot but not making anything.
20:38It was the first time in my life,
20:40the longest period of time where I wasn't making anything
20:42because even when I was growing up,
20:44I didn't have a job.
20:44I had my camera and I was editing
20:46and I was getting my friends together.
20:48When you get discovered by Spielberg and you get a job,
20:52you feel like, oh, I have to wait for that job to start.
20:55Yes.
20:55Not actually just do what you do.
20:58I learned a lot because YouTube came around
20:59right at the end of that.
21:00And we started making these YouTube videos
21:02where we challenged Miley Cyrus to a dance battle or something.
21:05It became this viral thing.
21:06I got to work with all these dancers
21:08and I got to shoot these things and I got to edit again.
21:10And the editing in my hands and shooting in my hands
21:13remind me why I love it.
21:14And when Step Up 2 came to my desk,
21:16it was direct-to-DVD and I was like,
21:18oh, I don't do direct-to-DVD.
21:19What are you talking about?
21:20And I got discovered by Spielberg.
21:22I'm going to go make a movie.
21:23And I talked to my mom and she said,
21:25when did you become a snob?
21:27She said, if you're a storyteller,
21:30then you can tell a story in any medium.
21:32You could be at a campfire.
21:33You should be able to tell a story,
21:35let alone DVD or TV or anything.
21:36You haven't proven yourself.
21:38And it really adjusted my brain.
21:39I was like, oh, yeah, that's right.
21:41I'm not a director.
21:42I'm a storyteller.
21:43And so my antennas went up of,
21:44I'm going to make the best damn direct-to-DVD
21:47dance movie sequel of all time.
21:49And I redid the script.
21:50It got into a place and then got the job.
21:52And then Disney, who had distributed the first movie,
21:56heard that I was attached to it.
21:57So they're like, oh, we want to hear that.
21:59The other one was Summit.
22:00So then we all went in, pitched it.
22:01And 20 minutes later, he greenlit the movie,
22:03Oren and Aviv, to go get the movie released
22:06at nine months, which we did.
22:07But it was that lesson of, you are a storyteller first.
22:11And that's every part of your job as a director,
22:13talking to crew, talking to actors, talking to things.
22:16It's not just the movie, the end movie.
22:18It's in everything you do, you're telling a story.
22:21But I feel like there's something else.
22:23And again, who knows who watches these things?
22:25I'm sure it's our colleagues.
22:26But presumably, it's younger you, younger me,
22:29people aspiring to this.
22:30Because the other theme in that anecdote,
22:33which really resonates for me, is whatever you're doing,
22:37man, do it as exceptionally as you can.
22:40Because you never know the thing
22:42that's going to change everything.
22:43Absolutely.
22:44And for me, I told you I was doing Nickelodeon
22:47and Disney Channel shows.
22:48One of those series was a show that no one's heard about,
22:51called Cousin Skeeter.
22:53And it was about this black family,
22:56the cousin of which lives with them.
22:58But the thing is, the cousin is a puppet.
23:00And no one acknowledges that it's a puppet.
23:03So it's basically a family sitcom with a puppet.
23:05But I was like, I'm going to make this
23:07the best puppet show ever.
23:08I'm going to do tracking shots.
23:09Let's cut holes in the puppeteers,
23:13kind of where they would work underneath.
23:15Let's cut these trenches so I could track with Skeeter.
23:18And I did.
23:19I was one of like 62 episodes.
23:21I went on with my life.
23:22Four years later, I get a call.
23:24It's Brian Robbins.
23:25And he goes, and he was the producer of Cousin Skeeter.
23:28And I'll never forget it.
23:29He goes, you know the call?
23:31I'm like, what call?
23:32He goes, the call you've been waiting for.
23:33This is that call.
23:34Because we remember that one episode of Cousin Skeeter.
23:37And we have this movie called Big Fat Liar Universal.
23:40Are you ready to make a movie?
23:42And I got it because of Skeeter
23:43and this delusional belief that I had to find a way to make it great.
23:49Just like you took a direct-to-DVD step-up sequel.
23:53And you were goddamn committed to making it great.
23:56And a few years later, here we are.
23:59So you never know.
23:59But that's what I love about filmmaking.
24:01That some directors have the vision of the movie itself.
24:07Or the dream movie to make one day.
24:09I don't know how you are.
24:10But for me, I fell in love with filmmaking
24:13because it was a process that I, as a kid, I didn't know how to express myself in that.
24:18But gathering people, having the idea, telling them the idea,
24:22having them all come together.
24:23To me, the process is the thing I fell in love with.
24:26So the genre in which I was making, whether it was a dance movie,
24:29which I loved, going into a new world which I did not know.
24:31People think, oh, you're a dancer, John.
24:33You starred as a dancer.
24:34I'm like, no, I'm a terrible dancer.
24:36So you had a love of musicals as a form.
24:39Yes.
24:39And that was the degree.
24:40And friends who were dancers and people in theater.
24:43It's the only way in, really.
24:44And they were the only ones who would help me when I was shooting a movie.
24:47So they were the only ones who were there.
24:49So I learned a lot about how to use my camera to help them tell their stories.
24:54But that process was always everything.
24:55Well, I asked you earlier about disappointment,
24:58which, I mean, if you have any kind of duration.
25:01I didn't even answer your question.
25:02No, no, trust me.
25:03I'm to blame for the wildly meandering conversation.
25:06But I'm enjoying it too much.
25:08I know.
25:08I mean, you've had movies that have been huge hits.
25:11And you've had movies that weren't.
25:13As have I.
25:14And I remember when you have a movie that misses,
25:18you finally realize, oh, I don't control outcome.
25:22It's easy to forget when you make hits.
25:24When you make hits, it's like, oh, yeah, life is fair.
25:27Outcomes are just.
25:29And then I've made a couple of movies that missed.
25:31And it's shattering.
25:33And suddenly, the public aspect of these jobs that are fun most of the time
25:38become very not fun because there's an embarrassment factor.
25:41There's public disappointment.
25:43But once I learned that I don't control outcome, I started savoring process.
25:49And it's really what you're saying for me.
25:51Give me a set where I have my actors, my camera department, my art department,
25:56my boom operator, and we're going to tell a story.
25:59OK, guys, huddle up.
26:01Here's what we're going to do.
26:02And again, going back to that Chris Columbus advice,
26:05I don't know how to do all their jobs as well as them.
26:08I don't presume to.
26:09But my job is to be clear and to inspire hundreds of artists on these big movies.
26:15It's hundreds upon hundreds of artists to bring their best craft
26:20to a story that we're telling together.
26:22Can I call you Elfie?
26:23It's a little bit perky.
26:24I know.
26:25I know I'm going to call you that.
26:28And you can call me Galinda.
26:32On a movie like Wicked or Deadpool and Wolverine, for instance,
26:35I think it's safe to say those are both of our biggest movies to date as far as
26:41complexity, scale, expectation, budget.
26:44How did you find with Wicked where you're coming into something that pre-exists,
26:50just as I was with Deadpool and Wolverine?
26:52How did you navigate expectation and the burden or pressures of expectation,
26:59but also deliver and do your job?
27:01Well, I've had some experience with that.
27:03Even in the Step Up series, there was a whole followers of Step Up.
27:06Fair.
27:07The Justin Bieber doc that I did had a lot of Justin Bieber fans
27:10and even G.I. Joe with a toy company and the previous G.I. Joe.
27:14So there was a sense of, okay, I've been through what fans want
27:19and what you need to find for yourself.
27:22But Wicked is different because it is the first time it's on film.
27:25Yes.
27:25The first time.
27:26They didn't even shoot it on stage.
27:27Yes.
27:28I was very lucky.
27:29I was a patient zero of Wicked.
27:31So I had a very pure first experience.
27:34So part of that was protecting the things that I already loved about.
27:37I was a huge fan.
27:38I was waiting for them to make the Wicked movie for 20 years.
27:41I was like, who's doing that?
27:42When are they doing it?
27:43I knew the areas that I remember when the bubble came in.
27:46I remember when Elphaba drops.
27:48And I remember, I imagined her flying around.
27:51I actually remember it as her flying around.
27:52They're like, no, she never flew around.
27:53She was always there.
27:54At the end of Act One.
27:55At the end of Act One, yeah.
27:56So you had her fly around.
27:57So you took the dream version.
27:59What I thought was happening, yes.
28:00Oh, wow.
28:02It is a washy dream back then.
28:03But I absolutely knew the levers to pull in a movie, what to do there.
28:08It was the truth of it that really the relationship.
28:11And I knew if I found those two women.
28:13First of all, if you didn't find them, you don't make the movie.
28:15Did you audition unknowns?
28:16Yes, we did.
28:18I thought that's the way we were going to go first.
28:20I was like, we don't need name people.
28:22But the reality is those songs are very hard.
28:24And the trick of moving in and out of those songs into reality and back and forth.
28:29And organically so.
28:30Who's probably failed at it and come back and done all the things to it.
28:33So and they came in and they just they took it.
28:36But I had to sort of let go of what people hope.
28:39I didn't read the internet of what every decision I made and what they thought of those things.
28:43I had to hold on to what Wicked meant to me.
28:45And I believed enough that I knew the power of Wicked.
28:49That's why I've been watching it for 20 years.
28:51To protect those things.
28:52And then I had long conversations with Stephen Schwartz and Winnie.
28:55We went through every script that was ever written about it.
28:57Every line.
28:58Every lyric.
28:59What different versions there were.
29:00And what what he wished was there or didn't wish.
29:03And I would ask certain questions that we put little pick points in.
29:06Dana Fox would do this as we as we all sort of formed what the new script would be.
29:09And that was really helpful.
29:10Did you reclaim any stuff that was in earlier drafts of the script before the Wicked that
29:16we know went out into the world?
29:18I think there were concepts of things.
29:20Like there's a scene where they come into the dorm room for the first time.
29:23And they actually have to talk to each other.
29:24It's not a musical number.
29:25It goes into what is his feeling.
29:26And I thought that was really important.
29:28If this movie was going to be based around us rooting for this relationship and an Elphaba
29:33coming defying gravity at the end.
29:35That we had to know the reality of that relationship.
29:38And walking in and talking to each other was really important.
29:40I think they had a scene like that in the show at some point.
29:42I don't remember.
29:43Yeah but the scene works in the movie for sure.
29:45Yeah for sure.
29:46For Deadpool and Wolverine I'm sure that was enormous.
29:50Because it's not just hey Deadpool.
29:52It's like oh this whole other thing happened on top of it with the studios.
29:56I mean the truth is that people assumed.
29:59I think I assumed that the scale of pressure would be oh it's my first Marvel movie.
30:05It's an MCU movie.
30:06The MCU kind of needed a big hit.
30:11When I came into that movie it had been a while.
30:14I mean it had been several years since Endgame.
30:16And it was when we were prepping I think Quantumania came out.
30:21I expected oh wow is the pressure from Marvel or Disney going to be intense.
30:28It wasn't.
30:29The pressure for me was A.
30:31I'm a huge fan of Deadpool as a character.
30:34I think those first two movies are great.
30:37But when we got Hugh and suddenly.
30:40I mean I've spoken about this so I'll tell it only briefly.
30:42But we worked for months to come up with Deadpool 3.
30:46Ryan and I and our co-writers.
30:48We did not crack it.
30:49Every idea felt either too big and bombastic for Deadpool which is grounded and sort of raw.
30:56Or too small for Marvel.
30:59And we failed.
31:01And we had scheduled a Zoom to tell Kevin Feige.
31:04You know what let's come back to this in a year or two.
31:07And Ryan and I were going to go do another movie.
31:09And on that day Hugh called and said I just had an epiphany.
31:13I want to be with Deadpool.
31:15Are you guys shooting already?
31:17And he had no idea the movie was going to evaporate.
31:21And from the minute Hugh called I knew what it would be.
31:24I knew that suddenly it's not Deadpool 3.
31:27It's really a two-hander.
31:29I wanted it to feel like midnight run.
31:31Planes, trains, 48 hours.
31:34I wanted a friendship redemption road trip.
31:39And yes it involves the void and a certain amount of fan service.
31:41But to me that was the greatest gift and the greatest pressure.
31:46Doing right by Logan and Deadpool in the same movie.
31:50But it is also what unlocked everything that I love most about the movie.
31:55I love it here.
31:56You live in a garbage dump.
31:57I think we both know who lives in the garbage dump.
32:01But that's what I love about it.
32:03It hit at the not just the right moment.
32:05But it was saying the most current thing.
32:08Like it was almost like how did they know when they're making this movie
32:10that it was going to feel so today.
32:12A lot of it was written.
32:14But I'm going to give credit where credit is due.
32:16We're shooting like a nice pool Deadpool Wolverine scene.
32:19And Ryan just starts going.
32:22And he starts speaking to the Deadpool core about
32:24can we be done with the multiverse thing?
32:27It's not great.
32:28And then he keeps going and he starts going.
32:30It's just been myth after myth.
32:33And I'm like I'm at the monitor going like oh shit I can't believe it.
32:37And the documentary that should have been made
32:40is Ryan and I screening the movie for Kevin Feige.
32:44And it's us watching Kevin watching Deadpool say those words.
32:49But fortunately sometimes you just you come along at the right time with the right story.
32:54And so Marvel just backed us and really bet on our instincts in a way that
32:58you know some people call it control.
33:00But control is really trust.
33:02And they kind of gifted us with that trust.
33:05That tone is amazing that you can go.
33:07And I'm not naturally a funny person necessarily.
33:11So when I worked on Now You See Me 2
33:13I was working with Woody and Jesse and they're so funny.
33:16Those fast comedic brains.
33:18And I was in awe of it.
33:19I really studied that.
33:20And I became sort of obsessed with how.
33:22Can I give you a huge compliment though?
33:24I have to tell you the thing as a super fan of Wicked the thing about your movie.
33:29And I'm wondering how conscious this was.
33:31I have to think it was by design with Alice your amazing cinematographer
33:35who I now realize you went back to film school.
33:36She shot my film school music.
33:38I have not seen a musical adaptation employ the tools of cinema
33:44in a way that felt this additive.
33:47You used visual humor in editorial and in camera.
33:53That was fucking impressive man.
33:56The way you know maybe Ariana would do a gesture.
33:59And you would do these micro tilts.
34:01And I really I can't name another musical.
34:05Maybe ever but definitely not in my recent memory.
34:09Where the language that is specifically cinematic i.e. camera work.
34:13And the meter of editing that they added to comedy.
34:19And so while you may not think of yourself as a funny person.
34:22Those comedic instincts and frankly your cinematic instincts.
34:25To elevate already phenomenal source material.
34:29I found that incredibly impressive.
34:31I feel like I've grown in front of the industry.
34:34All those movies the step-by-movies that now you see.
34:38I learned a lot even working with Wernick and Reese.
34:41Back in the day I learned a lot from all those people.
34:43And I feel when I did Crazy Rich Asians.
34:45It was like I got to take all those lessons of comedy.
34:48And camera and lyricism and movement.
34:51And put it in this thing that actually meant very personal thing to me.
34:54That I thought was scary for the world.
34:56I thought no one was going to go see it.
34:57And when that works out and I got to play with these people.
35:00It changes the way I feel about myself.
35:03About what I have to say.
35:04And so going into Wicked it was I feel like I hit my 10,000 hours.
35:08Well you and I having I think a decade on you.
35:11I will I'll tell you the good news is.
35:14You know middle age is often not fun.
35:16But one of the nice aspects of this moment.
35:20Our 40s our 50s and beyond.
35:22And we've seen this with masters who came before us.
35:25Is you really figure out the craft.
35:28Figure out the job.
35:29And we could have a whole other conversation.
35:30And your team.
35:31Because then you get comfortable with your team.
35:33And the trust and the comfort of a returning team.
35:37As you have with your cinematographer.
35:38As I do with my AD.
35:40My editor.
35:40My sound designer.
35:4210, 20 years in some cases.
35:44It really is it allows for freedom.
35:47Absolutely.
35:48And I have to say the other thing that I really felt with Asians.
35:51That you found and took into Wicked.
35:55Is as you've said this ownership of.
35:58Yeah I want movies that inspire delight.
36:03And I want to take people from the real world.
36:05In this dark theater among strangers.
36:07And I want to give them a feeling.
36:09I want to take them to a place that is a feeling.
36:12And I think Wicked does that.
36:13It's certainly what I tried to do in all my movies.
36:16And particularly in the museum movies.
36:18And Free Guy.
36:19And now with Deadpool and Wolverine.
36:21Because as we both know.
36:23A great movie.
36:25It's more than a movie memory.
36:27It becomes if you're lucky a life memory.
36:29I felt the same making Wicked.
36:31Like this is our opportunity to show why cinema should exist.
36:36I saw it with Crazy Rich Asians when people showed up.
36:38And you're like and you change what people think about.
36:41What a hero can look like.
36:42Or what a villain can look like.
36:43And us making fun of ourselves.
36:45And with Wicked it was like this is Oz.
36:47This is Wizard of Oz.
36:49One of the most iconic cinematic palettes of color.
36:53Of shape.
36:54Of form.
36:54And we get to go dance in it.
36:57I know Wizard of Oz was always written in a time of America in transition.
37:01And cinema is so American.
37:04And musical.
37:04The genre itself.
37:06And they're going to a university.
37:08So the high school genre of going to the movies is a whole thing in itself.
37:12So we took images of sort of Americana cinema.
37:15And tried to tell that.
37:16Because we're sort of kicking the tires on the American story.
37:20And I love that from there.
37:22Like who we think is the villain is not the villain at all.
37:25I mean I'm sure novelistic length articles will be written about your casting choices.
37:32And as I told you before we've enrolled.
37:34I found Ariana and Cynthia.
37:38I just was fully buying into the characters.
37:41I wasn't watching Ariana Grande do a movie performance.
37:44I was just oh that's Elphaba.
37:46That's Glinda.
37:47And I think it's just it's unavoidable to name the fact.
37:52That I've not seen a person of color play Elphaba.
37:56And while that choice again I didn't follow along.
37:59I don't know if that choice was controversial at the time.
38:03I'm sure some people embraced it.
38:05And others were shitty about it.
38:06But it did take a how old is Wicked?
38:09A 20 year old musical.
38:11It changed its dimension.
38:14The casting choice just kind of brought out themes.
38:18That are always innate in the show.
38:21But never overtly so.
38:23And never as I think resonantly so.
38:26And I found that really powerful.
38:28Thank you that's Cynthia.
38:29When she came in and she sang those words.
38:32Words I've heard a million times.
38:34And she says something has changed within me.
38:36Something's not the same.
38:37And she starts to go into it.
38:39All the context has changed.
38:41And I have to ask about the singing.
38:43Because I've heard that there was live recording of the vocals on set.
38:47The singing that I'm hearing in the movie.
38:49Is that a hybrid of pre-records and live?
38:53It can't possibly all have been recorded on set.
38:56I would say it's 99% recorded on set.
38:59Now we had both.
39:00Yeah.
39:00But in the end in their mix.
39:02We leaned all the way into the live.
39:04Were they singing with any playback in there?
39:06We had a live pianist every day.
39:08But they're not singing along to their own vocal pre-records?
39:11No, no, no.
39:12They have.
39:12Because they changed the tempo.
39:14The power of singing live.
39:16Was they didn't have to be on tempo.
39:18Because when she would start.
39:20Did that really just happen?
39:22She could take all the breath in the world.
39:23The wind could kick up.
39:24She could feel it.
39:25And then she could go into the next phrase.
39:26And the pianist is following her lead?
39:29It's just like playing live.
39:29And nobody on set can hear the pianist.
39:32I can because I have my headphones.
39:34But so it is like this whisper of this beautiful voice coming through.
39:38And pure acapella.
39:39People would come out in tears.
39:40Hell yeah.
39:41It was people would applaud.
39:42It was like that's why I say once I made a musical.
39:45Like what other movie would anyone ever want to make?
39:47It is the most exhilarating beautiful thing.
39:49And when you have you know people like Cynthia and Ariana.
39:53Who the music it is secondary.
39:55It is a gift from God.
40:03Their acting is what they get to focus on.
40:05And the technical part of coming in and out.
40:07Is just an extension of their acting.
40:09To me that freed everything.
40:11I have to say it seems like a weird analogy.
40:14But the experience I had on Deadpool and Wolverine.
40:17With Ryan.
40:18Ryan with comedy.
40:20Is as music is to Cynthia and Ariana.
40:24You're watching someone.
40:26You're watching Jordan.
40:27You're watching someone who was put here.
40:30I mean I have goosebumps right now.
40:32To watch someone do the thing.
40:34That they are built so beautifully to do.
40:37Is a gift.
40:38And so for us.
40:40And I'm sure it was similar for you.
40:41The least of my worries on Deadpool and Wolverine was the funny.
40:45I knew I've done a lot of comedy.
40:46Ryan's done a lot of comedy.
40:47And together we have this now.
40:49Three movies in a row.
40:50We have this flow.
40:52But so it allowed me as a storyteller.
40:54Just as I'm sure it did you.
40:55To focus on theme.
40:57Character.
40:58Moments of quiet.
41:00Moments of drama.
41:01Because you know they're going to sing their asses off.
41:03I know Ryan's going to be funnier than hell.
41:05So it's a luxury to work with.
41:09Just an all-star like that in their sweet spot.
41:12Isn't it?
41:12Did you finally wear an honest to God costume?
41:17Mine's red so they can't see me bleed.
41:19But I could see how yellow would be useful too.
41:22Have you been checked for ADHD?
41:24What was the moment of restraint that you love?
41:26You talk about moments of silence in Deadpool.
41:29I would say the one that comes to mind is in the minivan.
41:34Ryan and I spent.
41:36There was a day we were in London.
41:38I think the strike.
41:39I forget when it was.
41:40But we were like today we're writing this van scene.
41:43And we're going to write a monologue for Logan.
41:46Who has been in 10 other movies.
41:48But doesn't talk.
41:49Logan's a nonverbal character.
41:51How do we write Hugh Jackman?
41:53A monologue that feels true to Logan.
41:56But more verbose than Logan's ever been.
41:59And so from the day we wrote that.
42:02We wanted it to be this river.
42:04This torrent of words where he just eviscerates Deadpool.
42:08In the most incisive and hurtful way.
42:11And then we literally wrote a line.
42:14Where in the stage direction we said.
42:16Silence.
42:17A flicker of regret.
42:19Crosses Logan's pupils.
42:21But it's gone before you even notice.
42:24And to sit in that silence.
42:27And to see Hugh Jackman.
42:29Do exactly what we dreamed he might.
42:31When we wrote it.
42:33And then to sit in the edit.
42:35And in the early screenings.
42:36You did this with the dance.
42:37Between Elphaba and Glinda.
42:39Where man it's a lot to ask an audience.
42:42Who is paying for a tentpole piece of populist entertainment.
42:46We're going to sit in some quiet.
42:48And we're going to sit for a duration.
42:50That might be unconventional and uncomfortable.
42:54But for me that minivan scene.
42:56And the silence.
42:57Where Logan sees that he's hurt this guy.
42:59And suddenly it's not a comedy.
43:02It's a friendship.
43:04That is you know kind of based in hurting each other.
43:07That grows into love.
43:08Similarly that silence.
43:11Where Elphaba is humiliated.
43:13And Glinda goes out there.
43:14Was that something.
43:15I know we're going to run out of time.
43:17But like it was quiet for a long time.
43:19I was the only sound was the sound of my sobs by the way.
43:22So if you hear that that's my sniffles.
43:25It's interesting because I am not a writer.
43:28I don't get in there.
43:28So I can't write those in.
43:30But I kind of know the spaces that I want to play in.
43:32So I am reliant on our actors.
43:34I'm reliant on our editor Myra Kirsten.
43:36Who I've worked since Crazy Rich Asians.
43:38Alice or DP.
43:40Who like you said I've worked since college.
43:42Choreographer Chris Scott.
43:43And so we come together like this moment.
43:45If we track her emotions.
43:47This moment is in the show a funny moment.
43:49She comes in and does a funny dance.
43:51And the audience laughs.
43:53And the people are going to walk into this theater.
43:55Are going to want to laugh at this moment.
43:57How the heck are we going to say you don't laugh at this moment.
44:01Or let them laugh and make it uncomfortable.
44:03And we stick to our to our line.
44:07And we I put a Cynthia and Chris in a room.
44:10And I said figure out how she moves.
44:12What what is her movement?
44:14And Cynthia started to sort of make space for herself.
44:17And they had some some movements for her.
44:20But she rejected all of them.
44:21She's like let me just find it.
44:22And it was just this odd movement.
44:24It wasn't a spell.
44:25It wasn't a thing.
44:25She just it's almost like she's just feeling herself out.
44:28And it wasn't about a defiant.
44:29I'm wearing this hat and that's who I am.
44:32It was almost like she surrenders to herself.
44:35She's like this is who I am.
44:36I can't do anything about it.
44:37And I accept the shit I'm going to take for the rest of my life.
44:41And that is just my lot in life.
44:43And yet that's what that little space of that she's not fully complete there.
44:46That it leaves Glinda that space to come in and decide to pop her own bubble.
44:51And come into and also strip herself of the thing that she's most powerful for.
44:55Of the influence and popularity.
44:57So that she doesn't know.
44:58And so now they're down there by themselves.
45:00And that takes restraint of the camera.
45:02Were you scared going into your first test screening?
45:05Hell yeah.
45:06The studio was like it's not going to work.
45:07Yeah because it's a lot of silence.
45:10And so you go into that first one.
45:12Because they could you could get those titters of uncomfortable laughter.
45:16Absolutely.
45:16I made some cuts to just remove that little beginning laughter.
45:21Because there was a moment where if you just hold a little extra longer.
45:24People are expecting a thing.
45:26So it is amazing the frames make a difference.
45:28Absolutely.
45:29I think it was two seconds.
45:30Yes.
45:31And it just made the difference.
45:32It just caught people.
45:33But people catching themselves.
45:35And then seeing her eyes.
45:36And that's the power of syncing.
45:37And Ari's eyes.
45:38And that is the power of cinema.
45:39That's the power of what you did with that movie.
45:41I was saying earlier.
45:42You take a cinematic language.
45:45And you elevated Wicked.
45:47You truly did.
45:49And getting me right there.
45:51With their faces and their feelings.
45:53And what they're experiencing internally.
45:55Which you can't really do on a stage.
45:57You can't.
45:57But man can you do it on a movie screen.
45:59Especially a big movie screen.
46:01And I thought that was beautifully done.
46:03Look at you.
46:08You're beautiful.
46:11A couple other details that I want to find out.
46:13Just for my own sake.
46:14Okay.
46:15How did you decide when Wolverine or Logan would hear the joke.
46:19That Deadpool was saying.
46:22At any point.
46:23Like sometimes he would.
46:24It's like the divorce line.
46:26He didn't hear it.
46:26You didn't see the reaction.
46:27I'll tell you.
46:28No it's a really good question.
46:29Because I had that question a lot in Wicked.
46:31So the rule on Deadpool.
46:33Sort of is.
46:33And I hadn't realized it watching the first two movies.
46:36But I remember the first day Hugh shot.
46:39He broke the fourth wall.
46:40And he spoke to the camera.
46:42And Ryan.
46:43We're all.
46:43The three of us are good friends.
46:44Ryan was like.
46:44Oh no no buddy.
46:46Only Deadpool breaks fourth wall.
46:47And this by the way.
46:49Ryan Reynolds will give away A plus jokes.
46:52Like if someone else can land a great line.
46:56Ryan is very generous.
46:57Because again.
46:57He's sort of bottomless.
46:59He'll come up with 10 more.
47:00The rule tends to be.
47:02If Deadpool is addressing the camera.
47:05The other characters don't notice.
47:07So the divorce joke.
47:08About this is Logan.
47:09He's normally shirtless.
47:11But he's let himself go since the divorce.
47:13Another line where.
47:15Again we're very conscious.
47:17Deadpool is an equal opportunity offender.
47:20But we did clear that with Hugh.
47:22Before we laid it out.
47:23In front of the crew in the world.
47:26So if it's to the camera.
47:27Logan does not hear it.
47:29But if it's to another character in the story.
47:31Then Logan does.
47:32The one exception is.
47:34When Nice Pool turns to the camera.
47:35And says the proposal.
47:37Deadpool.
47:38Who is also a Deadpool.
47:40He clocks a fourth wall break.
47:42So funny.
47:42Yeah.
47:42Weird math.
47:43Rules are things that.
47:44Because it's similar with Cynthia and Ari.
47:46That Ari's in a comedy.
47:47And Cynthia's in a drama.
47:49And these two things have to then.
47:50Sort of unpeel each other.
47:51Until they meet in the middle.
47:52That's a really good point.
47:54And in the show.
47:56On stage.
47:57The audience is on the Ozzie inside.
47:59Because we come in to a theater.
48:00And we're already in Oz.
48:02And this green girl drops in.
48:03And she's the joke.
48:03She's the witch.
48:04Ha ha ha.
48:05Look at the green girl.
48:06In a movie.
48:07We're like.
48:07Why are they all singing?
48:09Do I accept this singing as the world?
48:11And then the green girl drops in.
48:12And she's one of us.
48:13Because she's like.
48:14What the hell is happening?
48:15Outsider status.
48:16And so we had to find that bridge.
48:17How she gets into that world.
48:19Sort of reverse elf.
48:20That she drops into that world.
48:21When she sings.
48:22Did that really just happen?
48:23And suddenly you're like.
48:24Oh she has a melody.
48:25She can sing.
48:25Yes.
48:26And then she sings bigger and greater.
48:27And the opportunity to sing bigger and greater.
48:31Than everybody here.
48:32I mean.
48:32I wish the viewers may find this too nerdy.
48:34But that was a question.
48:35Because when she starts.
48:37The wizard and I.
48:38I literally was like.
48:40I'm like.
48:40Oh wow.
48:41She's.
48:41Wow.
48:41I guess she doesn't have the big voice.
48:43And then verse two.
48:44I was like.
48:45Huh.
48:46Okay.
48:46Wow.
48:46Am I going to love this Elphaba?
48:48Because it's kind of a little more muted.
48:50Than I expected.
48:52But dude.
48:53Again.
48:54Restraint.
48:55And I assume that's something.
48:56Whether conscious or not.
48:57That Cynthia and you discussed.
48:59And we're going to wait.
49:00And we're going to wait.
49:01And by the time she's running.
49:02Towards the edge of that cliff.
49:04And it is full throated.
49:06Go time.
49:07It is so compelling.
49:10Because of the restraint you used earlier.
49:12And we're planting a lot of things.
49:13You know.
49:13She's at the lowest ground.
49:15Not touching the water.
49:16But right with the water.
49:17And the frogs.
49:18Connection with these.
49:19Everyone's running away from her.
49:20The nature and the animals are going towards her.
49:22These ones that can leap.
49:23And then the cricket can actually fly.
49:25And then the bees are coming towards her.
49:26And then by the time she gets to the field.
49:28The butterflies are taking off.
49:29The bluebirds are flying over the rainbow.
49:31And we give hints of her relationship with gravity.
49:33Because it's also a question.
49:35That we had to think about.
49:36Truly.
49:37What is her actual power?
49:38Is the broomstick pulling her?
49:40Which is a weird weight thing.
49:41And what.
49:42Or is it from her.
49:43That she has a relationship with gravity.
49:45Which is why we show in her youth.
49:46That she has a relationship with gravity.
49:47That when she cries.
49:48Things happen.
49:49And even at this moment in Wizard and I.
49:51Which she doesn't do in the show.
49:52That she actually shows a little bit of leap.
49:54That she has the potential to do this.
49:56She gets all the way to the edge.
49:57She's just not ready.
49:58I like to think.
49:59That's a bit of a Stranger Things.
50:01Wicked crossover.
50:02By the way.
50:02When she's young.
50:03And she doesn't know how to control her powers.
50:05I'm like.
50:05Eleven?
50:05You never know.
50:06You never know.
50:06Okay.
50:06Eleven.
50:07Elphaba.
50:08Referencing all American iconic culture.
50:10Well I know.
50:10We were all drawing from the same well.
50:12For sure.
50:13For sure.
50:13That's what I love.
50:14It's like.
50:14We're at a time.
50:15When we need.
50:16These kind of movies.
50:17That question the American fairy tale.
50:20And tell new ones.
50:20And tell new ones.
50:21And tell new ones.
50:22Even if we get to the darkness.
50:23Even if it's not naive.
50:25Which is what I love.
50:25That they're nuanced.
50:26And they're messy.
50:27And naivete is different than hopeful.
50:30Yes.
50:30Right?
50:32Hope is courageous.
50:34And I think neither of us is naive.
50:36But I know.
50:37We both count ourselves lucky.
50:38That we get to tell these kinds of stories.
50:40That both entertain.
50:42And provide hope.
50:44And joy.
50:44I love at the end of Deadpool.
50:46That Logan says like.
50:48So he goes.
50:49Where are you going to go?
50:49And he's like.
50:50I don't know.
50:50But I'll figure it out.
50:52To me that's when I make a movie.
51:14you