Y-Vonne Hutchinson joins Ali Jackson-Jolley to discuss how DEI became the scapegoat for corporate failures and what’s in store for DEI in 2025.
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00:00Hi, I'm Allie Jackson Jolly.
00:04I'm here with Wyvonne Hutchinson.
00:06She is the CEO of ReadySet and her new platform,
00:11SuperEssence, both of which are aimed
00:14at helping corporations create more inclusive, supported
00:17workforces.
00:19In this capacity, she has worked with the likes of Google,
00:22Amazon, and Salesforce.
00:24Wyvonne, welcome, and thanks for being here with us.
00:27Thank you for having me.
00:29Yeah, so as we head into 2025 with newly elected President
00:35Trump, the president-elect has been
00:38very vocal in his plan to wage war on DEI departments
00:44across the federal government.
00:46I'm curious, how do you think this
00:49will impact corporate DEI?
00:53Thinking ahead to what's going to happen with Trump and DEI,
00:55I get asked this all the time.
00:57And I think we have to be realistic about it.
01:00As much as companies are going to do whatever
01:05is in their power to discourage organizations
01:08from having DEI programs, discourage
01:13the use of the language around DEI,
01:17communicate that they're focusing on things
01:19like reverse discrimination, and directing their federal
01:23agencies to do the same.
01:26But the question really is, what does this mean in practice?
01:30And I think so often we get caught up
01:32in the language of DEI.
01:34And in some ways, that's intentional, right?
01:37So when we talk about anti-DEI policies, anti-woke policies,
01:43a lot of times we're all talking about different things, right?
01:46And so in some ways, that's intentional
01:48because that creates this chilling effect where
01:51anything that has to do with opportunity, fairness,
01:55can get swept in under that rug and targeted.
01:59So I think that that is a risk, but that's also an opportunity.
02:04So to get to my point, we know that Trump
02:08is going to target DEI.
02:11The question becomes, what does it mean for businesses?
02:14And how do businesses maintain their priorities
02:18in the wake of the changing political climate?
02:23And I think at the end of the day,
02:25whether or not you choose to use the DEI language,
02:29which I think more and more it's just really loaded,
02:33organizations are still going to be looking to hire,
02:36to retain good talent, to have fair systems,
02:41systems that create opportunity,
02:43systems that don't discriminate,
02:45systems that reward good performance.
02:48That has to happen regardless of who's in power or who's not.
02:52And that's just internally.
02:54When we talk about culture,
02:55and this is what we're looking at with Super Essence,
02:57we look at those internal factors,
02:59but externally, when it comes to their consumers,
03:03their customers, their target markets,
03:04and creating good, inclusive experiences there as well,
03:08that's going to continue to be a priority too.
03:11So I think the impact of the political targeting
03:16of DEI programs, the sort of politics of grievance,
03:21the theater that we've seen over the past few years,
03:25I mean, I feel in some ways like it's reaching
03:30its breaking point.
03:31And what I mean by that is just that
03:33organizational needs don't change.
03:35Regardless of what's happening on the political stage,
03:37they don't change.
03:38And organizations, if they want to make money,
03:41if they want to conserve costs,
03:42they're going to have to invest in these areas.
03:45You know, so speaking of politics
03:48and specifically identity politics,
03:51many have said that President-Elect Trump's win
03:58was a lot about a referendum on identity politics.
04:05Even before this election though,
04:07you spoke about DEI being the new boogeyman,
04:12where it has sort of become the bad guy
04:16for everything gone wrong in society.
04:18Can you talk a bit about that?
04:21Yeah, I think, so it goes back
04:24to the kind of vague language point that I made earlier,
04:28that the idea that DEI is this boogeyman,
04:32this ill-defined sort of specter
04:35that's responsible for everything
04:37that's going wrong in society
04:39and for everyone who does not deserve
04:41to be in the position that they have, right?
04:43So we blame DEI on Boeing's
04:48engineering and management failures,
04:49even though DEI has nothing to do with that.
04:52And they have pretty homogenous management team,
04:56unfortunately.
04:57We blame DEI for bridge collapses, internet outages,
05:02and the failures of the Secret Service
05:05during Trump's assassination attempt.
05:10This is why I say it's a PR campaign, right?
05:12Because there's nothing really behind that.
05:14The message is DEI's bad, DEI's bad, DEI's bad.
05:17DEI's responsible for everything that's wrong.
05:19And there's no real specification of what DEI is
05:24or why that is the case.
05:26And I think once you kind of scratch the surface,
05:30this is where it falls apart.
05:31And I wanna just quickly say,
05:33most Americans support DEI, right?
05:36Like there was a Washington poll
05:38that put support at 60% of Americans for DEI.
05:40So the fact that it's not broadly supported,
05:42number one, is in itself a myth.
05:45Number two, that number goes up
05:48when you define what it is, right?
05:50When you stop using the, like,
05:52just whatever term, niche term of the day it is,
05:56loaded term of the day it is, like DEI,
05:57and you start talking about,
05:58well, do you believe in fair hiring practices?
06:01Do you believe in fighting discrimination?
06:04Do you think that people should learn about bias at work?
06:08I think I would just make one additional point here
06:11as it relates to the work we do
06:15specifically at SuperEssence,
06:17is a company that tries to drill down
06:20on these questions of data.
06:21We're not a DEI company.
06:23We're an engagement and sentiment platform
06:26focused on understanding employee experience
06:29and to a lesser extent, customer experience.
06:32And we do so really thinking about these specific aspects
06:37of the data that relate to the way a company operates
06:42and how it affects their people.
06:44Again, this is why I keep emphasizing
06:46this specificity piece,
06:48because I feel like we're getting lost in the language,
06:52in the propaganda, in the sort of vagueness of it all,
06:56and really kind of undermining our businesses as a result.
07:00And at SuperEssence, we're really sort of trying
07:02to refocus on the data,
07:05on the specific aspects of operations
07:07to give people a very clear idea,
07:10very quickly of where they can improve their cultures,
07:13where they can improve their company experience,
07:16and the ability to truly be responsive
07:20in a time that really calls for it.
07:23Yeah.
07:24So, speaking about inflection points,
07:28we talked about president-elect
07:30becoming the president in 2025.
07:32Another inflection point obviously is around
07:36what we're seeing in technology and AI.
07:38And I know that you have in the past spoken a lot
07:41about why now more than ever,
07:45the tech industry needs to be intentional about DEI.
07:51Can you talk a bit about why you think
07:53it's even more important now than ever before?
07:57Yeah.
07:59I think that the tech industry needs to be intentional
08:05about a few things.
08:06And you'll notice that I'm pushing back
08:08on that DEI language because I wanna make sure
08:12that we're being specific and that we understand
08:17what's happening in terms of our current climate
08:19and what the needs are.
08:22Technology is powerful.
08:24The technology we build is powerful,
08:26and I know that technology has changed our lives.
08:28Just the fact that we're having this interview
08:32across the country from each other
08:35would not have been possible a few years ago.
08:38And embedded in those changes are the cultures
08:43of the companies that build the technology.
08:47And those cultures also influence how that technology
08:52interacts with its customers.
08:55So, I think to answer your question,
08:58there are a few reasons why now
09:00it's more important than ever.
09:02The first is that I think we are living in a time
09:06with greater inequality.
09:08Inequality is accelerating, it's not decreasing.
09:11And I think the technology, the tech sector
09:14is still a very powerful economic engine.
09:17And I think it's really important
09:19that to the extent that we can,
09:21we leverage that engine to provide everybody
09:24with equal opportunity, right?
09:26With access to this vibrant part of the economy.
09:30And I think that that,
09:32even though we're seeing some contraction,
09:35I think that that vibrancy is still gonna continue.
09:37I think that innovation is gonna continue
09:39to be what drives the economy.
09:41So, that's the first piece.
09:42The second piece is that I think technology organizations,
09:46but workplaces in general,
09:48more and more in this environment of instability,
09:51flux, uncertainty, are going to find
09:53that people are looking to them for certainty, right?
09:57And in the business, we're not quite used to creating it.
10:01In some parts, it's kind of embedded into what we do,
10:03but being really proactive
10:05around providing good experiences for our people,
10:10our employees, providing good experiences for our customers
10:14is going to continue and become more and more,
10:18I think, a competitive advantage.
10:20You see what's happening with Blue Sky right now.
10:22Blue Sky's not coming out of the gate,
10:24waving some DEI banner,
10:26but Blue Sky is saying,
10:28embedded in our ethos is having a good experience.
10:32And I think that that is the direction
10:36that organizations are headed.
10:38I think that that's what people are looking for
10:39from their employers.
10:40That's what consumers, users,
10:43are looking for on their platforms.
10:45I mean, I think that from a technology perspective,
10:47users want a good experience.
10:49They don't wanna feel held hostage
10:50by the platforms they use anymore.
10:52They're demanding it.
10:53And competition is high.
10:55So I think that that's yet another reason
10:59for organizations to prioritize diversity,
11:04inclusion, if you wanna call it that,
11:06but good culture, good experience.
11:09I think that that's going to be
11:12increasingly important over time.
11:14And again, creating that amazing experience
11:17really is going to,
11:19especially for the tech industry,
11:21continue to be a priority.
11:24And I always take it back to super essence
11:26because it's what I'm absolutely obsessed with right now,
11:30but it's the idea of how do we understand
11:33these unique dimensions of experience?
11:36And how do we enable ourselves to really act on it?
11:41Right now, our tools of measurement are broken.
11:43Surveys are biased.
11:45They can take a long time to deploy,
11:47a long time to analyze.
11:48We're seeing more and more tools,
11:51like polls are decreasing in their reliability.
11:54So knowing that there's this huge dataset
11:58of information out there about how people feel,
12:02how do we leverage technology?
12:04How do we harness the power of AI
12:06to really understand what people are saying
12:09and apply it to the kind of environments
12:11that we can build for them,
12:12the kind of cultures we want to develop,
12:14the kind of experience that we want them to have?
12:17That's what we're doing.
12:18Well, yeah, well, great.
12:19So Wyvonne, thank you so much for being here with us.
12:23Now we're out of time,
12:25but I really appreciate you
12:27and I would welcome you back anytime to do it again.
12:34I appreciate you having me.
12:35And I'll just say, as we close,
12:39it's really easy to get caught up, I think,
12:42in what has been fundamentally a pushback.
12:47For some of us, it feels like the pushback
12:49on our very nature, our very identities,
12:51and our rights to have what other people have.
12:55And while that is upsetting,
12:59I don't think that it's the end of the road.
13:02I think that at the end of the day,
13:05organizations still have to function.
13:07And in order to function,
13:10we have to be responsive to the needs of people.
13:13People are our greatest assets.
13:14And those people are diverse.
13:17They have divergent interests.
13:19They have different needs for support,
13:21and they want good experiences.
13:24And so that's what I'm focused on providing.
13:27No matter who's in power,
13:28no matter what trends we're seeing,
13:30that I think is always going to be central
13:33to just doing business.
13:37So I just want to end on that point
13:40because I do say that there's some bright spots here
13:43and some lessons that we can learn.