Former Netflix Head of Inclusion Vernā Myers sits down with Ali Jackson-Jolley to discuss the state of DEI, the challenges ahead, and what’s next for corporate diversity efforts.
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0:00 Introduction
1:11 Verna Myers Background In DEI
9:49 What Is Happening With DEI Opportunities And Companies Right Now?
16:49 Verna Myers Book Release
25:26 What's Next For The Former Netflix Head Of Inclusion, Verna Myers
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0:00 Introduction
1:11 Verna Myers Background In DEI
9:49 What Is Happening With DEI Opportunities And Companies Right Now?
16:49 Verna Myers Book Release
25:26 What's Next For The Former Netflix Head Of Inclusion, Verna Myers
Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:
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More From Forbes: http://forbes.com
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00I'm Allie Jackson Jolly with Forbes. I am here with Brene Myers. She is the former head
00:08of inclusion for Netflix. She is also one of the original DEI strategists. Brene, welcome
00:17and thanks for being here with us.
00:18Thank you, Allie. I'm happy to be here.
00:20Yeah, well, my gosh, do we have a lot to talk about. Am I right?
00:24We could be here all day, sure.
00:26But I want to start with, you know, looking through your bio. And for those who aren't
00:31familiar, you are a Harvard educated attorney before you went into diversity, equity and
00:39inclusion. And you were doing that strategy long before 2020, long before the murder of
00:45George Floyd, when many in corporate America woke up to the need for this.
00:51But so with that, with that degree that you have, that experience you have, let's just
00:57get right into it. When you hear a lot of rhetoric around DEI hires and that being code
01:05for unqualified people of color, what's your response to that?
01:11I feel like what year is it exactly? Because you're right. I started this working on diversity,
01:18equity, inclusion. It was 19. I mean, yeah, it was 1995. Right. I came up in Boston as
01:27an attorney. And somewhere along the way, the people in the Boston community realized
01:33that there was this deep paucity of black attorneys in the major law firms where I was
01:38practicing. And they started looking around and noticing that there were only black men
01:43who were partners and very few of them. And there was this huge like discrepancy between
01:50when they came in as partners and the next set of partners, as in we weren't making progress.
01:57And so when I hear people say something about qualifications and really attributing that
02:05to race and ethnicity, my heart kind of sinks because I'm like, I thought we already talked
02:09about this, that this is not the same as lowering standards or sometimes people would
02:15say bending over backwards. Right. This is about getting really capable, talented people
02:22in the right positions and the ways in which they've been thwarted, not because they aren't
02:27qualified, but because there are old stereotypes still lingering around and creating obstacles
02:34to their success.
02:35Yeah. So let's move into the current administration and the Department of Justice, the way that
02:43it has been reframing diversity, equity and inclusion as an exclusionary, illegal policy
02:53that harms civil rights. Again, you're an attorney, a former.
02:59Yeah, let's go with that. I'm a former attorney.
03:01You're a former attorney. Yeah, thank you. But like talk to us about the things that
03:08when you hear that, you say, OK, maybe, maybe there's an opportunity to make sure we're
03:11more inclusive. And then the ways that you really see that this Department of Justice
03:18can run amok by reframing DEI as an attack on civil liberties.
03:28So I would say reframing is a kind word.
03:31This is an intentional misinformation campaign.
03:36It is a distortion.
03:38It is a contortion of what diversity, equity and inclusion is about.
03:42It's actually like it feels like we're in an upside down world because DEI was created
03:48to actually assist the civil rights, not anti-discrimination laws.
03:53Right. To make it possible because you can pass a law.
03:56But then people's hearts and minds aren't necessarily going to shift unless you tell
04:00them how, show them what they don't know, sort of interrupt the biases that have been
04:06sort of in place. And so when you hear the attorney general, who is the person who is
04:13responsible for the laws, like the head law person, misconstrue and purposefully
04:20misconstrue what DEI is about, it is really quite painful.
04:25And I would say criminal.
04:26She's trying to bring criminal charges.
04:28And I'm thinking this is a distortion.
04:32And Ali, what it really is when I'm thinking about it is if you had problems with the
04:37practice of diversity, equity and inclusion, you wouldn't be doing this.
04:42You wouldn't be dismantling it and not acknowledging all the ways that it's been quite
04:48successful. You would not be saying that this is illegal because, quite frankly, we
04:56have laws in place that say that you cannot discriminate against people because of any
05:02one of these particular protected classes.
05:05Right. And so what DEI is attempting to do is to make sure that those laws are followed.
05:11But I really do believe that this is a this is a way to weaponize something that has been
05:18incredibly positive for so many people, granting access and opportunity and innovation.
05:27And I mean, so many companies have benefited from this.
05:31So it feels like this is an exploitation of some of the worries and fears that people in
05:39the culture have.
05:40This isn't about diversity, equity, inclusion.
05:44This is how do we exploit the fears that people have that maybe their life isn't going
05:49the way they want it to go, that they may lose out, that there's a zero sum game.
05:55And instead of helping people recognize that we can build something and we are building
06:00something that is for everyone, it's about how do we pull back a certain kind of
06:07dominance for certain groups of people?
06:11And I think that is the tragedy of what we're looking at right now.
06:15Well, let me ask you, because, you know, you really spoke there to the fact that at one
06:21point the idea of diversity, equity and inclusion was aspirational.
06:26It made many feel positive.
06:30And then at some point there was a rebranding.
06:32And any of those of us who have done any studying or work about branding, we know that
06:38brand is all about building brand is all about building a feeling, right?
06:41It's why, you know, Nike isn't just about the best sneakers, about being able to just do
06:48it. Right. And so and others.
06:50So somewhere along the line, the E.I.
06:53got rebranded as, to your point, something that was nefarious.
06:57That meant that that thing, something was being taken away and unfairly and
07:04specifically. And you and I were sort of talking behind the scenes before we started.
07:08Specifically, we know that younger white men really feel that, really have some fears.
07:17What do we do? Like, how how what do we do?
07:20Do we say, oh, well, too bad, or do we say, no, we have to understand why they're feeling
07:26this way? And, you know, and then and then tell me, how do we fix this?
07:32Yeah. So I want to make one distinction between D.E.
07:35I and diversity, equity, inclusion.
07:37And I'm just starting to say the whole phrase now because they've actually taken the D.E.
07:42I and they have, as I said, completely distorted it, created an entire misinformation
07:47campaign. So I do want to say that the critique against D.E.
07:53I is something that I don't think is legitimate.
07:56However, this idea that people may be concerned that what's happening in their
08:02companies is maybe going to disadvantage them in some way.
08:08I always think about how do we make this about everyone?
08:15And I think when you're really practicing D.E.
08:18I, you really are asking that question.
08:21I was in a workshop one day and this woman raised her hands, a white woman.
08:26And she said, I don't know what to tell my son because he comes home and he goes, the
08:31girls are winning everything.
08:33The girls are getting everything.
08:35That's not fair.
08:37What do I say to him?
08:39And she was she was sincere.
08:42And I certainly have heard some men say to me, well, you're going off on this retreat.
08:49When is there a man's retreat?
08:51You know, like so I have heard some of those.
08:54So there are two things here.
08:56One is that is not a majority opinion of most men, including most white men.
09:02In fact, when you do any study in any company, the people who have the highest sort of
09:07scores on how they feel about their opportunities and their future and their access to
09:13opportunities, it's always white men.
09:15They're scoring like 90 to 95 percent all good.
09:19And when you look at women, especially women of color or people of color, for example,
09:24LGBTQ plus folks, they're giving a very different and lower score.
09:29So a real question is who is being disadvantaged here?
09:32So hold on, let me make sure I understand.
09:34So you're saying with respect to studies or surveys, surveys, men in the workforce are
09:42asked, what is your opportunity to achieve that next level or to advance?
09:48Are you feeling positive about your your opportunities in the company?
09:52Do you feel you're being judged fairly?
09:54Are you getting access to opportunities?
09:56All of those kind of cultural survey questions.
09:58So and in the corporate workplace, at least, they feel that they are doing well.
10:04Yes. In fact, sometimes you look at the results and you slice it by by gender or by
10:10tenure. You know, you look at different aspects of it and you're thinking, are these
10:13people in the same company?
10:15Right. So that's the first thing.
10:16So whoever is upset, it's a minority of people.
10:20That doesn't mean you shouldn't be listening to them.
10:22Right. And feelings are real and they must be acknowledged.
10:27So I want to acknowledge that.
10:29But so is data.
10:32Data is also real.
10:33And we don't have any data that would suggest that a certain group of people who have
10:38historically been well included, overrepresented are actually faring less well.
10:45In fact, we still are looking at 80 percent to 90 percent, depending on what industry and
10:50which company you are in, that the people who are running that organization are white
10:55men. Having said that, could people, once they start to experience true competition,
11:02start to feel like they're not going to be included?
11:06That's what I think is happening.
11:08When you've had kind of an unequal, unlevel kind of playing field and things come by to
11:15like level it out a little bit.
11:17So you have a few more people that you're not used to seeing in certain pools competing.
11:23I think sometimes people think, wait, my chances are fewer and they would be right.
11:28But that's not because they've been disadvantaged on, you know, illegally.
11:33It's because finally we have true competition.
11:37Finally, we are removing some of the discrimination and the bias that prevented that
11:42competition to happen.
11:44And, you know, people are about merit and excellence, but I don't know if that's true
11:50when they realize that everybody wants meritocracy, but not everybody is getting an
11:55opportunity to play in a meritocratic field.
11:58Yeah, that's interesting.
12:00And so so what's the answer?
12:03How do we how do we speak to because I like I liked what you said.
12:07Feelings matter.
12:09It's important to address how people are feeling.
12:13How do we address this?
12:14Like, how do we address what we know is and I think a lot of what I've spoken to, a lot
12:19of corporate leaders are thinking about their earlier career, young men, young,
12:27predominantly white men who feel threatened or angry about inclusive practices in
12:37corporate America. How do you reeducate or retrain that thinking?
12:43You know, there are two things that I've been thinking about in this regard because I
12:46deeply care and we're not going anywhere ultimately as a company or as a team or as a
12:51country unless people can feel that inclusion.
12:54That's why I don't think diversity, equity, inclusion is going anywhere, because first
12:59of all, we're diverse and that demographics is not going to change any time soon.
13:03Second of all, in order for that difference to actually be positive, it's got you've got
13:08to understand inclusion.
13:09Right. And then equity is necessary for everybody to have an equal opportunity to
13:15really show what they're capable of.
13:17So I don't think diversity, equity, inclusion can go anywhere if we want to be
13:20successful as companies or as organizations.
13:23But we must make sure that everybody has a role to play who wants to play on an
13:31equitable level playing field.
13:35If you want to be dominant, I can't help you.
13:38If you want to ensure that you're the first one chosen or you're the only one who gets
13:43that, I can't help you.
13:44However, like I thought to myself when this woman asked me this question about her
13:49child, I said, tell your son that there's been a history of exclusion and that the
13:57society hasn't been quite accurate and that maybe his sister has had to deal with a lot
14:04of stuff that they haven't.
14:06But that if he and all the women that he girls that he knows get together and
14:12creatively imagines a place where each one of them get opportunity, that's what they
14:19should be doing. Put your energy there.
14:21Having said that, I want to know what you're worried about, what concerns you.
14:28And I understand like societally, their men have all sorts of pressures and a lot of it
14:34is around and really being able to produce and to provide.
14:40And they're so much of their ego and their identity is built into their whole societal
14:46notion of who they are as men.
14:48I get it, but I want to know what you're worried about.
14:51What do you see?
14:52How can I help you?
14:54And also, how can I help you be more inclusive?
14:57Because if you can learn the skill of collaboration, if you can learn the skill of
15:03listening, if you can learn the skill of being courageous when needed.
15:07So there are five things that I'm really trying to get people to think about.
15:11And I'm actually writing a new book about this because this is a real opportunity.
15:16I see this time as a true opportunity for us to, as I say, like reassess all of what
15:23we've been doing and then reimagining what transformative workplaces look like and
15:29then reengaging everyone, not some people, everyone.
15:33And so I think we need to be more curious.
15:36I want to know what are you worried about?
15:39Where are you seeing yourself being disadvantaged?
15:42I want to be interested in that.
15:44And then so that's a bit of curiosity, but I also want to be conscious and I want other
15:49people to be conscious about where the biases are and how that makes it difficult for us
15:54to make really good decisions or have the best people in the best seats.
15:58And then I really want people to think about courage.
16:01Like, how do you talk about these things with one another?
16:04And how do you stand up when you see the bias?
16:08And then it really is about compassion.
16:10Ali, we need more compassion.
16:13And I know people like that's not efficient, compassion is not efficient.
16:17And I'm like, it so is because when you can actually care about the people you're
16:22working with and they know that and they feel that you get a lot more loyalty, a lot
16:27more trust, a lot more productivity.
16:29And if you have to let a person go, because I remember one time someone said, but I
16:33don't think I can fire someone if I'm compassionate.
16:35I'm like, you can fire them compassionately.
16:37Right. But also this other idea is to build community.
16:43And so those are the things like curiosity and consciousness and courage and
16:48compassion, and then building a community that's transparent, that is accountable
16:55and that actually seeks to make possibilities for everyone.
16:59Yeah. So let's talk about that opportunity.
17:01Yeah. And first of all, tell me about your book so I know when it's coming out.
17:05Yeah. And if you have a title, what it's called.
17:07OK, so the well, we don't have a title and you know how book titles go.
17:10You know, I do. Yes. But right now in my mind, what the title is about is another way.
17:15OK, because I do believe this is an opportunity for us to find another way out of
17:19the polarization, out of the fear, out of the blame and shame and attack.
17:24And I would even say out of the cancellation mindset and really into how we build
17:30something that all of us can thrive from.
17:32And I am I've almost written it and I need an agent and a publisher.
17:38So I have I have someone for you after.
17:40OK, OK. But anyway, so let's talk about that opportunity.
17:43Yeah. You know, like the one thing that I thought about is in the 300 plus years
17:50that, you know, this country has been around, we've never gotten this stuff right.
17:54We really have it. We've never created equity, you know, an equitable society.
18:00So where is that opportunity?
18:02As you know, there's all of these critics that are pointing to what isn't being done
18:10well. Where do you see like that bright spot where, OK, maybe we can get everyone on
18:14board and maybe we can finally disassemble what isn't working and then assemble it
18:19the right way? I think, first of all, always change begins with ourselves.
18:25You know, when I'm talking about being compassionate to other people, I'm really
18:28talking about you've got to understand how to be compassionate towards yourself.
18:31You've got to be curious about your own self.
18:33What are you bringing? What is your perspective?
18:35What is your worldview?
18:36How is that either creating some sort of barrier between you and other people and ways
18:43in which you could actually be more interested, more curious in yourself and in
18:49others? So so much of everything starts with us and inside.
18:53But I also have watched leaders.
18:56So, you know, I was at Netflix and I have watched leaders grow in this area.
19:02And a lot of it is because the the company requires leaders to grow and to be
19:09inclusive and to ask questions of themselves and others and to be transparent.
19:15And we're better than we think we are.
19:19We're more courageous than we think we are.
19:21We just are out of practice.
19:24So but if you get a chance to practice in an environment where people aren't going to
19:29take you down for every mistake you make, you might actually learn to ask a question
19:34that feels uncomfortable, but gives you the information you need to actually know what
19:41the right thing is to say or to understand what might be impacting your group's outcomes
19:47or whatever, because it's all connected.
19:49Right. This isn't just about social justice, although it is about being just to the
19:56people who you socialize with.
19:58But it is about ultimately how do we serve our clients?
20:02How do we serve our customers?
20:04How do we get the best out of human beings?
20:07So, you know, people want to make diversity, equity, inclusion like this separate thing.
20:11It's not. It is part of human resources and really being able to take those resources
20:17and use them in furtherance of the future and the prosperity of any company or any group.
20:22Yeah. And so one of the things that did start happening in 2020, when back when corporate
20:28entities and leaders started to say, hey, let's thread DEI into our business case.
20:34So it's not only a nice to do, it's a have to do to grow business.
20:40A lot of corporations, Netflix was at the forefront of that.
20:46And I think media companies were in many ways because the understanding was back to what
20:50you hinted at. This society is becoming more diverse or there are by 2045, I think, is
20:59that as the data point, there'll be more people of color in the U.S.
21:02than not. So that means as you grow Netflix, as you grow your viewerships, as you grow
21:07your consumers, Forbes, as you grow your audience, you know, you've got to make that part
21:13of your business.
21:14But so what do you say to CEOs and CHROs and corporate leaders who understand that they
21:23need to continue to grow their diverse workforces and their diverse products for diverse
21:32audiences and communities, but are worried about the legal pitfalls right now, are worried
21:40about, again, back to the Trump administration and the Department of Justice and what that
21:45means for them. What do you tell these leaders that that, you know, that see what they
21:49want to do, but are sort of feeling stuck or worried about still building diversity in
21:54their workforce?
21:56So I don't want to dismiss the concerns that companies have, that my clients have in
22:04particular, because there is a risk analysis here.
22:08There is a risk analysis on two sides, though.
22:13It's not just what Trump is going to do.
22:15We still have laws.
22:18We still must abide by those laws.
22:21So if you decide that you aren't going to look at the disparities, the ways in which
22:28maybe bias is preventing you from actually bringing in a more diverse group of people
22:33or promoting them or pay equity is being interrupted, you're going to get sued on this
22:39other side. Right.
22:40So you have to balance both.
22:42And there's a whole nother thing you want to balance, which is who's going to come work
22:48for you. We are now at a time where young folks are looking for places to work that
22:56actually have the values that matches theirs.
23:00So my other point for most of my companies is what are your core values?
23:08And remember, core are the values that you follow, even when you know there's going to
23:16be some turbulence by doing so.
23:18Core values are the things that guide.
23:21And this is a time for people to be guided by their core values.
23:27Now, there are ways to do it so that you aren't endangering your business.
23:34But there also may be stands you need to take in order to help all businesses, right, in
23:40order to get out from this bullying that is happening right now that is against all of
23:46our best interests.
23:47And so I think that there's a real opportunity for, first of all, when diversity, equity
23:54and inclusion is done correctly, it's integrated into the entire life cycle of all
24:00employees. It's about where you go and looking for talent.
24:04It's about how you interview people and what is the right way to assess job criteria.
24:11And are we using certain language with these folks and not with these folks when we
24:15evaluate them?
24:17Why are we talking about her personality, but we're not talking about his?
24:21Why are we wondering whether someone is capable, even though they have three major
24:25degrees? There are so many ways in which you've got to integrate.
24:31And by the way, you don't necessarily have to have specific numbers that you're trying to
24:36hit in the way of representation.
24:39You just need to look at what do our promotions look like and how does it look for
24:45women? How does it look for people of color?
24:46How does it look for people with disabilities?
24:50I mean, because one of the best things about diversity, equity, inclusion is that from
24:56the 60s to where we are right now, the umbrella of who is part of diversity, equity,
25:06inclusion has grown so wide that I'm like most people, if they really understood what
25:11diversity, equity, inclusion was about, they would be rallying for it because they're
25:16being advanced by it because maybe they are a veteran or maybe they're a father.
25:24And now we actually have paternity leave.
25:27Or maybe it's your daughter who has a neurodiversity sort of way of being and need a
25:36company that understands that there is great value there.
25:38Nevertheless, you know, there are so many ways in which diversity, equity, inclusion has
25:44expanded. Most companies are global.
25:46They've got to understand difference.
25:48They've got to figure out how to deal with different voices and cultures and languages if
25:54they want to ultimately be successful.
25:56Yeah, yeah. So look, we're almost out of time, but I wanted to ask you, what's next for
26:02you? What are you excited about?
26:05What is there? Is there anything new brewing that we should know about for you?
26:10OK, strangely, even in this time, which is so disconcerting and upsetting, I'm feeling
26:15energized. And I think it is because of focus and purpose.
26:19And I do believe that my purpose is to help create.
26:22That's why I went to law school.
26:24I wanted to have a better world.
26:25Right. It's so basic.
26:27But I think that this is a time for people to really look deeply in themselves and say,
26:32like, what do I want to do to make the world better for all, not just for myself?
26:38And so for me, I've got this book that I'm writing that I'm very excited about.
26:42I'm creating an institute where I want to give places where people can come and grow
26:47without being blamed, shamed and attacked, especially for leaders, because leaders aren't
26:53given that space.
26:54And often that's not that's why they don't grow in this area.
26:57And they're very protective.
26:59But as long as you're protecting yourself, you can't really grow.
27:02And also, I am working on, you know, helping other practitioners really fortify their
27:10practice and thinking about where they start with themselves so that they can bring the
27:15kind of compassion, the kind of openness, the kind of love, the kind of flexibility
27:20that's necessary for us to move our world and our corporate spaces into a better
27:26place. Yeah, I love it.
27:27Well, now we are out of time.
27:30Brene Meyers, thank you so much for being here with us, making us a little smarter about
27:36what's going on in the world with diversity, equity and inclusion.
27:39And hey, listen, I'd love to have you back once your institute is up and running to hear
27:44more about that. Thank you, Ali.
27:45It's been a pleasure. I appreciate you so much.