Acceso Oeste: Un conductor mató a otro de un fierrazo luego de chocar.
"Empezó a convulsionar y murió por el golpe"
"Se escuchó el sonido del golpe"
Seguí en #ElNoticieroDeA24
"Empezó a convulsionar y murió por el golpe"
"Se escuchó el sonido del golpe"
Seguí en #ElNoticieroDeA24
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NewsTranscript
00:00What else happened this weekend at Acceso Este, Javi?
00:04I repeat, Acceso Este, a game in Burlingame.
00:08This guy who's walking, he literally hits another man
00:13with a sledgehammer on his head and kills him.
00:17He killed him?
00:18He killed him with a sledgehammer on his head.
00:20A terrible thing.
00:22You know when you're driving on the street
00:24and they tell you not to fight on the street
00:25because you don't know who you might run into?
00:27Exactly. What does he have?
00:28A madman and a murderer.
00:30Because the madman, I mean the madman in the sense of madness,
00:34the madness of grabbing an iron and breaking it on the head.
00:38So the discussion escalated to hitting him with a sledgehammer.
00:41A traffic discussion.
00:42Negro, you can't kill someone.
00:44Listen to what happened there in the place.
00:47Negro, you can't kill someone.
00:51Look, this is the discussion.
00:53This man is going to end up dead from a sledgehammer.
00:55This Negro man.
00:56Get out, get out.
00:58The fight is actually ending there.
01:02Negro.
01:03The sound is this person's broken head.
01:07Tremendous what has happened.
01:09Obviously, the driver was immediately arrested.
01:13The charge is no more, no less than homicide.
01:17He took my hand.
01:19That's all I have to say.
01:21This is the moment.
01:22He took my hand.
01:23Yes.
01:25This is the moment of the discussion.
01:27There you see the two Negroes who are standing in that curve, let's say.
01:32And to the right, the detainee.
01:34By officers of the fourth police station in Hurlingham, in the Mitre neighborhood.
01:39I saw that the woman is waiting, she is pregnant.
01:42They basically ruined her life.
01:44Tremendous.
01:45The detainee is called Félix Arturo Aguilera Oviedo.
01:50He is 27 years old.
01:52And the fatal victim, Martín Pastorino, 30 years old.
01:57Who died as a result of having broken his head with an iron in another driver.
02:03There are a lot, obviously, of course, there are a lot of witnesses who were there in the place.
02:07And the police arrived immediately.
02:09And of course, there in the place, he arrested the one who told you a few moments ago his last name Oviedo.
02:14As a material author of the fact.
02:16Javi, we have, you say that there were many witnesses.
02:18These videos that you are showing here in the newsroom.
02:21But they were recorded by Ariel.
02:23And we have it in telephone communication.
02:25So that he tells us a little more.
02:27Because he is a first-hand witness.
02:28Ariel, how are you?
02:29Cata de Lía, Javi Díaz and the whole team here.
02:31We greet you from A24.
02:33Well, very good morning to everyone.
02:35A huge greeting.
02:36Nothing, as you can see in the images.
02:38The iron cut falls, which was from the person who had been hit.
02:44From the deceased.
02:45But no, it was no more than a fight, you see.
02:48I had decided to separate him.
02:49I am the one in the white shirt who films the dome.
02:51I'm there.
02:52And I filmed, you see, so that, so to speak, everything was recorded.
02:57But I never thought he was going to go to the elderly.
02:59In fact, I tell the woman who was pregnant.
03:03Go to the corner store and call an ambulance.
03:05You.
03:06And check if you are okay.
03:08Never to the elderly.
03:10To the boy too.
03:11Now he is a murderer, right?
03:13Logical.
03:14I told him, skinny, you are about to be a father.
03:16Relax, calm down.
03:17I film, which is the video that I think you are showing.
03:20He was going to the car and I don't know when.
03:22In fact, it's my voice in the video.
03:24I say, hey, stop him.
03:26And there you hear how the iron cut falls dry, which hits him.
03:30And at the moment he begins to convulse and dies as a result of the blow.
03:33I was witnessing everywhere because I heard the father say anything.
03:38That he slipped, that he fell, to the brother, that a slap.
03:41None of that.
03:43They fought and the guy went.
03:45He grabbed Cizania because he had finished everything.
03:48I separated them both.
03:50I told him, let's go black, go to the car.
03:52In the video you can see that I am filming him.
03:54He is going to the car.
03:56If he is screaming, I kill him.
03:58Like any traffic violence, so to speak.
04:01And the other one went to look for the iron cut.
04:03And he breaks it.
04:05He breaks it in the head.
04:07In fact, Javier, no, no, no.
04:09On the contrary, Javier speaks to you.
04:11In the video you record, the sound of the blow is heard.
04:15Do you see how it is heard?
04:17The sound of the blow and how the gun falls.
04:20The father falls to the seconds.
04:23I don't know where the family is.
04:25Making the misunderstanding.
04:27He wants to ask me what happened.
04:29When I imagine that you will have to answer.
04:31Because your son called you.
04:33You were trying to clean up in fact.
04:35Can I ask you a question, Ariel?
04:37According to everything you saw.
04:39Was it direct to kill?
04:41Or did it go in his hand?
04:43He grabs me and tells me.
04:45There is another video that I also passed to the producer.
04:48In fact, she was very kind in communicating with me.
04:50I spent three videos.
04:51One where I grab the killer.
04:53And I tell him, you're not leaving here, macho.
04:55You killed someone.
04:56I think they show it.
04:57I tell him, stay here, that's it.
04:59Measure the consequences.
05:01And he stays there.
05:02Now.
05:03We have that video, Ariel.
05:05Do you want to make a point here?
05:07And we see this video that you are reporting.
05:09There we put it.
05:10Because it is with audio.
05:11He is in leather.
05:13Negro, you can't kill someone.
05:15That's it.
05:17Negro, you can't kill someone.
05:19That's it.
05:21There we were seeing it, Ariel.
05:23There I had grabbed him.
05:25Yes, you had it, right?
05:27Of course, he never stopped escaping, let's say.
05:29That's the point.
05:30He never stopped.
05:31I put it on my side.
05:33There was an officer who approached you very kindly.
05:35At the touch.
05:37And nothing.
05:38Imagine he said sexual words.
05:40Call an ambulance, save his life.
05:42Of course, not worried as we were all.
05:44But for him to save his life.
05:46Because he knew what was coming to him.
05:48Ariel, put us in context.
05:50Let's see.
05:51All this is a transit discussion.
05:53For a crash, for a win, whatever.
05:55Who was the victim coming with?
05:57And who was the killer coming with?
05:59The victim was coming alone.
06:01For a video that I saw on Telefe.
06:03Yes.
06:05This killer was playing the horn,
06:07but with everything.
06:09He was exaggerating.
06:11He wanted to violate the situation.
06:13The traffic.
06:15Lower the time and place.
06:17There they fight verbally.
06:19Yes.
06:20And then I see that this killer on top,
06:22which I want to add,
06:24goes and hits him in the back.
06:26And apart from that,
06:28as the car leaves, he hits the car.
06:30I mean, he does everything wrong.
06:32That's where almost everyone sees.
06:34But no one gets involved, I get involved.
06:36And I see what had happened.
06:38Do you know where the guy's head goes
06:40when he decides to kill him?
06:42That's why the one who kills
06:44comes with his wife,
06:46who is pregnant.
06:48Who is pregnant.
06:50And who was provoking.
06:52And you say,
06:54he was provoking,
06:56he was provoking the fight,
06:58and he gets off and hits.
07:00That's what I'm going for.
07:02Because you're at a traffic light,
07:04they shoot you 10 times.
07:06That's not bad.
07:08But from there, you get off.
07:10If you see that video,
07:12I didn't film it, I didn't see it.
07:14He gets off and beats him up
07:16in a way that you say,
07:18I have an accumulated fight,
07:20I don't know.
07:22After that, I get in,
07:24I see them both already violent,
07:26bloody.
07:28And he said,
07:30give me the screwdriver and that's it.
07:32I'm going to shit,
07:34let's go,
07:36bye.
07:38And that's where I don't know
07:40if he had the screwdriver hidden
07:42or he had it in the place
07:44where his wife was,
07:46because I think at some point
07:48he's going to look for the screwdriver
07:50at the place or somewhere
07:52and they hit him dry
07:54and at the moment he dies.
07:56When we went to look for him,
07:58I think,
08:00he would have said,
08:02stay here, skinny, I told him.
08:04And it is clear that he looked for everything.
08:06From what you are saying,
08:08he put together the whole situation.
08:10Yes, because I was separating them
08:12and I said, give me the screwdriver.
08:14I gave him the screwdriver,
08:16it's not even mine,
08:18I was stealing it,
08:20I was asking him for something that was his,
08:22the fight was over.
08:24But forgive me, Ariel,
08:26the screwdriver or the iron,
08:28did the victim have it first,
08:30did he take it out and use it to kill him?
08:32That's how it is shown in the video.
08:34He touches the horn,
08:36the other one comes down with the screwdriver.
08:38Who?
08:40The one who is now dead.
08:42Ah, that's why.
08:44And the other one takes out the screwdriver
08:46at some point and breaks the head
08:48of the one who had brought it.
08:50The screwdriver at some point falls
08:52and he grabs it.
08:54That's why I'm telling you,
08:56when he grabs it from behind
08:58the screwdriver falls
09:00and the guy grabs it
09:02and takes advantage of it.
09:04The victim could hardly defend himself.
09:06The victim in the video
09:08that I saw,
09:10sorry, there was a telephone,
09:12I think you can say,
09:14in this video it looks like
09:16they hit him from behind, poor thing,
09:18the screwdriver falls
09:20and apart in this video it also looks like
09:22inside the car, nothing to do,
09:24but another one passes and they steal things
09:26like a murderer, son of a bitch.
09:28That's terrible.
09:30Now, this was in broad daylight,
09:32everything you are telling,
09:34because in the videos you can also see
09:36a lot of cars.
09:38Everything, because I go every day
09:40and I have family there
09:42and I spend every day the same
09:44and never anything,
09:46it is rare that something happens.
09:48We have another of the videos that you sent us,
09:50Ariel, with audio to share,
09:52let's see if we can put it
09:55also the moment of the fight
09:57from another angle.
10:25...
10:45It is tremendous, and then you hear that it falls,
10:47after the blow, the victim falls
10:49and then you hear that the lock is forgotten.
10:51The victim falls, the lock falls
10:53and you notice how between the nerves,
10:55because imagine how shocking it is for me,
10:57I don't know if I say defend it
10:59or something like that,
11:01I saw it but I didn't get to record
11:03when it hits him,
11:05because I say something in the background.
11:07Yes, what happens is that
11:09it is a fact that we always say,
11:11don't react on the street,
11:13you don't know who you can run into,
11:15one that takes out this iron,
11:17iron, iron,
11:19and the other takes it off
11:21and kills the one who had taken the iron.
11:23Everything.
11:25It's like you don't know who you have on the other side
11:27and how he's going to react.
11:29Anyway, it's all crazy.
11:31He was about to be a father,
11:33I don't know what kind of example
11:35he was going to give with that kind of behavior.
11:37And the worst.
11:39He's in charge of the shit,
11:41so to speak, automotive,
11:43he's in charge of the shit,
11:45the second shit is to steal the iron cutter,
11:47he was doing everything wrong,
11:49and on top of that he ends up killing him.
11:51Now, Ariel, when you were there
11:53next to him, when the officer arrived,
11:55when he had already killed the other person,
11:57did he show regret at some point?
11:59Saying, what did I do?
12:01Or didn't they get it right?
12:03Look, in the video that you see
12:05that he's there crying,
12:07he was sorry.
12:09I can't tell you if he did it
12:11because he saw me there,
12:13that the officer arrived,
12:15I don't want to say
12:17whether he regretted it or not,
12:19that he had a murderous soul
12:21because of those things I'm telling you,
12:23he had them, because it wasn't for so long.
12:25Now, I want to add it to Javier.
12:27Javier, did this person have any kind of background?
12:29At first, no.
12:31Because the car is unlicensed or am I wrong?
12:33It's the first car, that's the victim's car.
12:35Ah, it's the victim's car.
12:37Of course, the victim's car that you see there
12:39in front, the Bento.
12:41It's a Bento and the other was a Volvo.
12:43But the Bento is the victim's car
12:45and it's the killer's car
12:47that didn't stop honking.
12:49They get out of the car and start fighting.
12:51It's all because of a stupidity, unfortunately.
12:53But what I want to emphasize
12:55is the aggressiveness of this guy
12:57in those points that I just mentioned.
12:59Stealing the iron cutlery,
13:01the honking.
13:03Well, Alex, I calmed him down.
13:05Let's calm things down, guys.
13:07You go to your car,
13:09you stay with your wife,
13:11and out of nowhere you hit her on the head.
13:13No, clearly.
13:17Clearly.
13:19And now, what did the people do?
13:21Because, I mean, we're seeing
13:23a lot of people there.
13:25They all stopped.
13:27They were able to stop him.
13:29I don't know if they got to the emergency service quickly.
13:31Look, I can't tell you
13:33if they got to the emergency service quickly.
13:35I stayed there for 20 minutes,
13:37as long as I could, and then I left.
13:39But I understand that they got there.
13:41And they had already cut the whole area.
13:43But...
13:45They couldn't do anything.
13:47People were shocked.
13:49I don't want to tell you my word,
13:51because I don't know who,
13:53but in the blow, he dies.
13:55For me, if I have to go to the test,
13:57he dies in the blow
13:59because he gets convulsions.
14:01He convulsions and dies.
14:03He killed her in the car.
14:05And my fear, I wanted, I don't know,
14:07let's bring him some water.
14:09I don't want him to lose his life
14:11because no one has the right to...
14:13Did the ambulance get there quickly?
14:15I don't know how long it took.
14:17That's what I just said.
14:19I stayed there for 20 minutes
14:21and I didn't see the ambulance.
14:23A female police officer got there
14:25after 5 minutes.
14:27She helped me to have him next to me
14:29when I grabbed him by the plate.
14:31I put him in a leather jacket
14:33and told him to attack.
14:35The victim was Martín Pastorino,
14:37and in this case,
14:39the detainee is
14:41Félix Arturo Aguilera Oviedo,
14:4327 years old.
14:45He is in prison for homicide.
14:47Of course,
14:49it was probably a simple homicide.
14:518 to 25 years in prison.
14:53He ruined his life.
14:55That's the best part.
14:57He ruined his life,
14:59because at first,
15:01if you see that,
15:03even I tell you,
15:05I'm going to leave her here,
15:07but you keep looking for her.
15:09At some point,
15:11you have to cut her off.
15:13Plus, you have your wife
15:15who is about to give birth
15:17and nothing happens to her.
15:19He was very upset.
15:21I understand that nothing
15:23justifies what happened.
15:25But the discussion
15:27about the traffic
15:29before the murder,
15:31why did it happen?
15:33It's what I tell you in the video.
15:35It's what I see
15:37and what I hear.
15:39The guy was very upset.
15:41He wanted to pass him over.
15:43And the other one,
15:45the one from the event,
15:47he got out of the car,
15:49he said,
15:51unfortunately,
15:53it's typical.
15:55And then he turned around
15:57and he got out of the car
15:59and hit him
16:01in the face.
16:03And in that video,
16:05he fell to the floor
16:07and he said,
16:09poor guy,
16:11he had three teeth less,
16:13a bloody nose.
16:15I gave him a handkerchief
16:17and he was fine.
16:19We separated him
16:21and he said to me,
16:23this is a tracker,
16:25he has a knife,
16:27I want to kill him.
16:30He was hiding inside the place
16:32out of fear.
16:34We were talking for two minutes
16:36and the guy
16:38lost his mind.
16:40He said to me,
16:42I don't understand what happened
16:44when I filmed him
16:46naked.
16:48He wanted to call an ambulance
16:50and I don't know
16:52what for.
16:54And he said,
16:56I don't know.
16:58Miguel, there we see
17:00in the security camera video
17:02that right where this guy
17:04falls,
17:06there is a salesman
17:08in the roundabout.
17:10Sure, there are those who always sell
17:12things there.
17:14And I'm the one in the white shirt.
17:16But both you and that salesman
17:18saw everything and heard everything.
17:20That's why I'm going everywhere
17:22because I want justice to be done.
17:24I don't know any of them.
17:26Literally.
17:28But I didn't like
17:30what the murderer's family said.
17:32And they're going to try to defend him.
17:34I'm sorry for the woman
17:36who was about to give birth.
17:38But no one
17:40can take anyone's life.
17:42Ariel, we have
17:44the video of the moment
17:46when
17:48this person
17:50who says, I can see
17:52that the thermal jumps,
17:54that's another car driver.
17:56Look at the moment
17:58when Ariel records what was happening.
18:12There he doesn't have the iron in his hand.
18:14What did he do?
18:22Brake.
18:32Black man, you can't kill someone.
18:36Black man, you can't kill someone.
18:40Black man, you can't kill someone.
18:44Tremendous.
18:46Now,
18:48you say he doesn't have a record.
18:50I imagine, Ariel, Javi,
18:52what does it take for a person
18:54to jump like that
18:56after a traffic accident,
18:58to kill another person?
19:02You can have a violent emotion.
19:04Now,
19:06you know that if you take an iron,
19:08a stick, a knife, a firearm,
19:10the other person can be killed.
19:12I'm going to say what Javi said.
19:14If you are aware of your actions,
19:16even with your hands you can kill someone.
19:18You have to be aware
19:20and you have to be very careful.
19:22Especially if it's a street fight.
19:24Because it was nothing.
19:26What you are telling
19:28were noises,
19:30it was nothing too serious.
19:32Nothing deserves what happened.
19:34But it didn't even deserve
19:36to stop killing verbally.
19:38I swear, nothing.
19:40The guy admitted it to me
19:42and I have to tell you.
19:44He told me,
19:46I ate too much
19:48and I got fat.
19:50You killed a person, man.
19:52Be aware.
19:54Stay here because you have it for a while.
19:56I remember I said yes.
19:58It's terrible, really.
20:00Let's go over a little with you, Ariel.
20:02Javier, the ages
20:04of the two people.
20:06The killer is 27 years old.
20:08The victim is 30 years old.
20:10More or less the same age.
20:12Let's reiterate.
20:14If you are watching now,
20:16this happened in the tollgate
20:18of West Access.
20:20And I repeat, in a curve,
20:22what you see there,
20:24a discussion of traffic,
20:26previous noises.
20:28The victim gets off with an iron,
20:30threatening.
20:32That iron is thrown on the asphalt
20:34or in a nearby place,
20:36he gets off,
20:38the discussion continues,
20:40and the one who later becomes the killer
20:42takes that iron,
20:44breaks it on his head
20:46and kills him.
20:48That's how it all ended.
20:50A discussion of traffic,
20:52what we always say.
20:54I know it pisses you off
20:56that they insult you,
20:58it pisses you off
21:00that he drives badly,
21:02it pisses you off
21:04that he has a minor injury,
21:06it has nothing to do with it.
21:08But they didn't even look at the papers
21:10of the cars.
21:12They were more angry
21:14than they wanted to kill him.
21:16You end up with a sentence
21:18of 8 to 25 years in prison.
21:20This guy ended up with a sentence
21:22closer to 25 years in prison.
21:24With a pregnant woman.
21:26And another person without a life.
21:28It's terrible, the truth.
21:30It's like, unfortunately,
21:32he got to the extreme
21:34more unthinkable.
21:36He literally reached
21:38what he could reach.
21:40And because here it doesn't matter
21:42who was right about the crash,
21:44about the traffic incident,
21:46which is minor.
21:48Here the most serious thing
21:50is death, murder.
21:52The crime of this man,
21:54I reiterate, of 30 years.
21:56Ariel, we'll stay with you,
21:58with Javi.
22:00He's a man, he's a specialist,
22:02a lawyer, a specialist in road safety.
22:04So he can tell us a little
22:06his view on this case
22:08and how much pain he can get
22:10to the person who killed the other.
22:12Víctor, how are you? Cata Delia greets you.
22:14How are you, Cata? How are you, Javi?
22:16How are you?
22:18Well, this person doesn't leave prison anymore.
22:20How long does he wait?
22:22Because everything is recorded.
22:24We have the witness here, connected with us,
22:26chatting, and everything is quite clear.
22:29According to what
22:31the Filipino prosecutor,
22:33who is the prosecutor of Mogadón,
22:35intervenes in this case,
22:37he qualifies it as a simple homicide.
22:39A simple homicide has a sentence of 8 to 25 years.
22:41If there are no precedents,
22:43he will face a sentence
22:45according to
22:47what is seen
22:49in the evidence.
22:51Here is an important point.
22:53You said you were with a witness.
22:55The important thing is the witnesses,
22:57the cameras, the situations that took place.
22:59Because surely, from what I could see,
23:01this man is marking
23:03things to say that it was a legitimate defense,
23:05because they say that with the same
23:07element that attacks him,
23:09which would be that short-circuit,
23:11he hits him. We have to see if they are like that.
23:13Let's see, I make a point here,
23:15because I have Ariel.
23:17Ariel was defending himself.
23:19He was not defending himself
23:21in that drowned sense.
23:23He went to attack him.
23:25I tell you, if you see the whole mess,
23:27all the plots...
23:29Ariel, it's like you say,
23:31the legitimate defense has three things.
23:33First, there has to be an illegitimate attack.
23:35You don't have to provoke it,
23:37and you have to be proportional to the medium that attacks you.
23:39If you tell me that
23:41he was attacked,
23:43the victim was attacked,
23:45and this is what you saw,
23:47well, it was not a legitimate defense, it was a homicide.
23:49In any case, it can be a pre-intentional homicide.
23:51That is,
23:53I didn't want to kill him,
23:55but I killed him.
23:57That's where you have to evaluate the prosecutor.
23:59But, for example, you are a key element
24:01in the case. You are the witness
24:03who is telling me, at least to me,
24:05that you will tell the prosecutor appropriately.
24:07Look, he was attacked.
24:09The victim was attacked.
24:11It's not that the victim attacked him.
24:13So there is no legitimate defense
24:15because there is no aggression for the one who defends himself.
24:17Just like you said,
24:19there was no time for the victim.
24:21Well, then, clearly,
24:23what there could be
24:25is a simple homicide
24:27or eventually, as I told you,
24:29a pre-intentional homicide.
24:31When I don't want to kill him, but I kill him.
24:33Now, then we have to interpret
24:35if hitting someone in the head with an iron
24:37is not wanting to kill him.
24:39That's another question.
24:41But what I'm telling you
24:43and answering the question that Cata asks me,
24:45is basically
24:47we are talking about a simple homicide
24:49and that's why they are investigating.
24:51And that's why this person is detained
24:53and I don't think he will regain his freedom
24:55except for some situation of an extraordinary incarceration
24:57that is given the elements as for.
24:59Good.
25:01So, let's see, Ariel,
25:03as far as I understand,
25:05beyond the fact that he recorded the moment,
25:07all the videos that we are seeing on the screen,
25:09he recorded them, he was there at that moment,
25:11he intervened.
25:13Is he a key witness, doctor?
25:15He is a key witness,
25:17as far as I see, there is a position
25:19that I think sells pizza or something like that,
25:21those people too,
25:23all those who were in the place
25:25and who can voluntarily present themselves
25:27in the UFI 8.
25:29The issue, of course, doctor,
25:31you know how this is,
25:33when the police arrived,
25:35they all left,
25:37imagine that in the video
25:39it seems that I am the only one playing.
25:41Ariel, what you say,
25:43I think it's very good,
25:45he is listening to it on television,
25:47he is listening to it,
25:49he says, the truth is, I saw it
25:51and it costs me nothing to go and lose,
25:53which is not to lose,
25:55it is to win so that a fact is clarified
25:57and justice is served.
25:59Go to the prosecutor's office,
26:01I say, the prosecutor's office number 8
26:03of Morón, Dr. Filippini,
26:05if not, call 911
26:07and say, sir, I saw this,
26:09where am I going?
26:11And there they will address him.
26:13This is done and tested.
26:15If we prove that there was a murder,
26:17it will be a murder.
26:19If we prove that there was excess
26:21and this generated death,
26:23it will be a murder.
26:25Victor,
26:27there I add a look of mine,
26:29obviously appealing
26:31to your knowledge,
26:33what the images reflect,
26:35because here there is
26:37a security camera,
26:39more cameras,
26:41in the case of Ariel
26:43and other cameras that must be
26:45giving images of cell phones.
26:47The victim,
26:49at that moment,
26:51beyond the fact that the victim
26:53may have attacked him,
26:55did not have a latent danger,
26:57that is, the victim was not advancing
26:59over him, but was retreating.
27:01And he goes with the iron
27:03to hit him.
27:05Hit him and kill him.
27:07That is forceful.
27:09What they say is that the victim
27:11at that moment,
27:13the victim goes with the iron to hit him.
27:15Ariel will be able to corroborate this.
27:17He goes with the iron to hit him,
27:19who at one point, I don't know why,
27:21falls or lifts him.
27:23No, no, no, that's where I interrupt you.
27:25The iron falls long before
27:27the murderer grabs it and leaves it to him.
27:29And just the one
27:31who is now dead
27:33will claim,
27:35well, it's crazy,
27:37give me the iron that is mine
27:39and the other,
27:41in other terms, in other vocabulary,
27:43I keep it,
27:45he raised it and he bit it.
27:47Let's see, then what you say ...
27:49What you are talking about, Ariel,
27:51this is the work that the
27:53Public Prosecutor's Office and Justice
27:55have to elucidate.
27:57This is what we have.
27:59And there will be a lot of
28:01incidents and a lot of situations to see.
28:03But I want to be clear, Victoria.
28:05One little thing.
28:07I'm not a criminal,
28:09but what I want to say is that
28:11this is not an obvious fact.
28:13This is a street discussion.
28:15It is not an obvious fact.
28:17Of course.
28:19It is a product of the situation
28:21that we live in,
28:23that everyone is in a bad mood and so on.
28:25No, but wait, Victor,
28:27I want to ask you about all the cases
28:29that you have worked with,
28:31which are many,
28:34how did you manage to put the firewood
28:37in such a unfavorable way?
28:39You know, I remembered
28:41the other day
28:43a judge in La Plata
28:45who went down with a revolver
28:47and started shooting.
28:49And there are several facts
28:51that obviously cause the Justice
28:53to take a hard position
28:55in relation to this.
28:57Because obviously we all have problems
28:59and everything,
29:01as they say,
29:03you apply all the weight of the law, you're going to think about it twice.
29:07Of course.
29:08Because we all live in the same Argentina and we all have the same problems.
29:12Yes, I ...
29:13Here is where justice has to investigate well.
29:15That's where I say that people like Ariel and the others who have seen the situation
29:20have to come out and say this was in such or such a way
29:23so that there is no situation where these issues are justified.
29:28Of course, because it is important to explain again and listen to Ariel.
29:32You were saying, Víctor, that it is very important to know
29:35if he was defending someone who kills or not.
29:39He was not defending anyone because it is not that he has seen her.
29:42He was not defending anyone.
29:43Of course.
29:44No, no, no.
29:45On the contrary, I was defending him.
29:46I was defending Paul at the time of the point because he was bleeding badly
29:50because I had already hit him before.
29:52Sorry.
29:53And here ...
29:54And I don't cut you down because it was your way.
29:56Ariel, I insist, if a person comes and is going to attack you
30:00and you tell him, wait, and that situation ceases, well, you can't follow it.
30:07Let's see, without going any further, it happened to me last week.
30:10I had a traffic accident, a crash, and it was with a motorcyclist.
30:14The motorcyclist came, the first thing he said to me was, hey, no, get off.
30:16I say, no, no, not like that.
30:18And I say, if you want, I'll run, I'll run a little.
30:21And then he came and apologized to me.
30:23He said, it is logical the first reaction, but one of the two has to lower the decibels.
30:28Of course.
30:29And if you tell me that in this case the victim, when he passed the first step,
30:33lowered the decibels and the victim followed him, well, there Dr. Filippini will have to evaluate
30:37and justice will have to evaluate how this situation follows.
30:41We are talking about a simple homicide, a pre-trial homicide, or what?
30:46I hope it is justice as it should be, because it is regrettable what happened, as I tell you.
30:51But of course, and so that it remains as a precedent.
30:55Apart, so that it remains as a precedent, that you can't go down to argue and cheat,
30:59because you're going to close your eyes.
31:01No, that's not bad either.
31:03That is justified.
31:04Logical.
31:05That it is not in a state of violent emotion, because I insist,
31:08we all live in Argentina and we all have problems.
31:10Of course, because one can get out of a bad mood with a bad day, but ...
31:14The two parts were wrong.
31:15We do not kill the other.
31:16We are not in doubt, but we do not kill exactly, as I said.
31:20For me, no one can take anyone's life.
31:22I love that.
31:23Absolutely agree.
31:25Now, one thing is to defend your life, and another thing is to act improperly.
31:31No, clearly ...
31:32Defending your life is absolutely valid.
31:34It is that they were at a different time, doctor.
31:36One thing ...
31:37That's why I'm telling you, that's why I'm telling you.
31:39It is when he goes down, and then, ten minutes later, that everything is over,
31:43that we were not there, he goes and kills him.
31:46That's what the justice will have to elucidate.
31:50Of course, what happens is that ...
31:52Here there is a person who can speak, who is the victim, Ariel.
31:55And there is a person who cannot speak, who is the victim,
31:58and the victim speaks through testimony, cameras, autopsies, evidence.
32:03That's why I say that all those who have seen something, go.
32:08No, and we have Ariel here, I think ...
32:10Let's see, Ariel, if I interpret you well.
32:12I think he's giving you a lot of trouble,
32:14that the killer's family comes out to say that the killer reacted like that because he defended himself,
32:21because what you saw was the opposite.
32:23I think that's why you jump now to speak this way, right?
32:27As it is, as it is.
32:29Because, as I told you, it's not that it was all at the same time.
32:31If it had been at the same time, we're on the right.
32:34But it was all at different times.
32:37Everything was calmer.
32:39His wife, who was pregnant, was being attended to.
32:42There was no need.
32:43That's what I want to emphasize.
32:45There was no need for him to have grabbed a different killer or something in the head,
32:48who went and killed him.
32:50I think we were fighting and he had to defend himself.
32:53And he killed him with his own ...
32:55With the saw that was the other one, which he had stolen.
32:58Let's wait a second, Ariel, because I want to ask Victor a question.
33:01Victor, put yourself as a lawyer sponsor of La Querella.
33:06I'm not asking you from the other side.
33:08I'm asking you from La Querella.
33:09How would you act?
33:11I would ask, first of all, what I'm doing,
33:14look for witnesses, as Ariel did,
33:16analyze the film questions,
33:18and then look for what Ariel was saying about the causal link.
33:22That is, at some point he followed the whole discussion and derived from this,
33:27or at some point, as Ariel says, he cut himself,
33:30the decibels went down and out of nowhere, in quotation marks,
33:34the aggression occurred.
33:36But wait.
33:37But you have the videos.
33:40Wait a second, Ariel.
33:41Wait a second.
33:42But wait until we finish the thread.
33:44Excuse us.
33:45But you have these videos, Victor.
33:47You have this testimony that you know through the media of Ariel,
33:51plus some that can be added.
33:53You, representing the victim's family.
33:57What do you ask and how do you act?
33:59I ask for a simple homicide,
34:02so flat, of course,
34:04and speaking on TV, I ask for a simple homicide.
34:06Okay.
34:07So you go for everything.
34:09But it's basically a simple homicide.
34:12Now, if I go to the other side,
34:14what they can also tell you is what I told you.
34:16It can be either a legitimate defense,
34:18which is with the same iron that they came to attack me,
34:21I defended myself,
34:22or a pre-intentional homicide,
34:24I didn't want to do it and it happened.
34:26And in that case...
34:27That is also analyzed.
34:28Yes, yes.
34:29You also have to be aware that if I hit you with an iron on your head,
34:32I'm going to kill you.
34:33Okay, that's why you have to represent that.
34:35You had the time of this, in the middle of the fray.
34:38There is no violent emotion here.
34:40That's why I don't name it.
34:42Of course, that's why.
34:44Well, that's the causal link.
34:50Yes, or at least maintaining the situation.
34:52No, and then I have another question.
34:54Ariel has been telling us that the killer
34:57had been provoking this whole situation of violence.
35:00He starts provoking the fight with blows,
35:04then he gets down, hits him in the back.
35:07Doctor, if you watch all the videos,
35:10from the ones I send,
35:11the Domo that is there,
35:13and all the media that is there,
35:16you can see where the killer starts.
35:18Like in the stories by Ute May, sorry to emphasize.
35:21Thirty beatings, ten beatings,
35:23rushing all the traffic,
35:24when it is a sector that is collapsing.
35:26The other one, who is bad, as you say,
35:29comes down with an iron,
35:30and there I can't say what he said or what he did.
35:33If you see in the video,
35:34that then he goes back to his car
35:36and betrays him.
35:37The other one comes down, the killer,
35:39but he hits him hard,
35:40he doesn't just slap him,
35:41he throws himself on him,
35:42he hits him all over,
35:43there the iron falls,
35:44right there he grabs the iron and steals it.
35:47And there I already intercede a little
35:49and I see what was going on there,
35:51I calm things down a little
35:53and I start filming.
35:54But my question is this,
35:56what does Ariel describe, Doctor?
35:58Does he build that it was, let's say, something armed,
36:01that it was not a violent emotion at the time?
36:03That's exactly what I was going to say.
36:05Stay calm,
36:07Ariel and you,
36:08that both Dr. Filippini
36:10and the people who are in the Public Prosecutor's Office of Morón,
36:14with Dr. Ayuso Lino at the head,
36:16work very well.
36:18And since they work well
36:20and with all the evidence they are saying,
36:22surely they will be able to,
36:23as it is called,
36:24qualify the conduct as it corresponds.
36:27If it is a homicide, it is not a homicide,
36:29if it is a homicide with alibis,
36:31it can even be with alibis.
36:34They will qualify it as it corresponds
36:36with the evidence there is.
36:37And if there is all this amount of evidence that we are talking about,
36:40without a doubt,
36:41they will be able to take it to a good term.
36:43I dare to say,
36:45I dare to say humbly,
36:46that with my three videos,
36:47I have three videos that the two of us
36:49have been talking about all this time,
36:51you can see that it is being done alone.
36:53It is not that there is a constant fight
36:55and that it is being defended.
36:57It is being done.
36:58So I think that more than that,
37:00it is heard when the gun falls,
37:03sorry, when the gun falls.
37:06I understand,
37:07I just say that this is a question
37:09that they have to analyze,
37:10and they will analyze it from a legal point of view
37:12that coincides with you.
37:13If it is as you say,
37:15and it is as you manifest it,
37:17surely we are talking about a different situation.
37:20But there are also many things in the media
37:22to be able to analyze it,
37:24which are done from a technical point of view
37:26to guarantee all the issues on one side and the other.
37:29Now, obviously...
37:30So that the person who is convicted
37:32is not convicted because it happened
37:34because of a whim,
37:35but I do want to emphasize something.
37:37In this type of situation,
37:39justice has to take drastic measures.
37:42Why?
37:43Because otherwise they will be reiterated.
37:45And you told me, Cata, no,
37:46and I tell you,
37:47I remembered, so fast,
37:48I remembered two.
37:49Let's see.
37:50The one of a judge in La Plata
37:52and another one that, well,
37:54more than one,
37:55how many times have you seen people
37:56who get off and hit the police
37:58with guns and others?
37:59Yes.
38:00A lot.
38:01So these situations have to stop.
38:04And how do you stop it?
38:05Well, to tell them,
38:06hey, listen to me,
38:07did you see that someone who got off
38:08and hit him with a gun
38:09was put in prison for 8 years,
38:1010 years, 12 years?
38:12Yes, no, let's see.
38:13Then you will think twice.
38:14We, as journalists,
38:15and you as a lawyer,
38:16we have covered many,
38:18many cases where there are
38:20one or two crazy people
38:21in a traffic dispute
38:22where one is even armed.
38:24Now, the number of times
38:25that one killed the other
38:26are still few
38:28and it still amazes us
38:30what leads a person
38:32to jump that step
38:35that is to kill the other.
38:38Well, I don't think it's illogical
38:43that if I hit you with a knife
38:45to the head,
38:46I'm not going to kill you.
38:48Of course.
38:49Okay?
38:50I insist.
38:51I also heard or read
38:53that he got hit in the head
38:55and that he fell and hit his head
38:57and that's what happened to him.
38:58That's why I'm talking.
39:00Imagine, doctor,
39:01that I try to do it
39:02as anonymous as possible
39:03because they are saying
39:04every nonsense
39:05that I hope it doesn't end.
39:07That will determine it.
39:08The autopsy,
39:09the videos will determine it,
39:11the testimony will determine it
39:12like yours.
39:13This is what is going to happen
39:14in the field of what is
39:16the criminal cause.
39:18Well.
39:19And that's where we have to go.
39:21So the steps now
39:22is this person
39:23obviously is arrested
39:24and the prosecution
39:26will have to reconstruct
39:27with testimonies
39:28like Ariel's
39:29and many others,
39:30with security cameras
39:33and with everything they can,
39:34reconstruct exactly
39:36what happened
39:37to try to see
39:39if the accused
39:41used his legitimate defense,
39:43which is very unlikely
39:44from what Ariel reports
39:45and from what you see in the videos,
39:47or if he killed,
39:49if he went to kill.
39:50Exactly.
39:51What they are going to do
39:52is analyze all the evidence,
39:53qualify the conduct
39:54and based on that
39:56And I have a question doctor,
39:57sorry,
39:58if in this case
39:59the one who died
40:00did not have a chance
40:01to defend himself either,
40:03there does not change
40:04the sentence for the murderer
40:05because he did not have
40:06any opportunity to defend himself?
40:08In this case,
40:09that's why I told you Ariel,
40:10the sentences,
40:11the sentences have a minimum
40:12and a maximum.
40:13In this case,
40:14it has always been
40:15from 8 to 25 years.
40:16And the minimum and the maximum
40:17will depend on two issues.
40:19The first issue,
40:20the antecedents of the accused
40:22or in this case the victim.
40:24If he has antecedents,
40:25he has more sentences.
40:26If he does not have antecedents,
40:27he has less because it is a primary.
40:28And also because of the fact,
40:30because of the situation.
40:32If he was attacked,
40:33if he did this,
40:34if he did that,
40:35if he did the other,
40:36instead of 8,
40:37they will give him 10,
40:3812 or whatever.
40:39That's why there is an area
40:40between a minimum and a maximum.
40:43And that's where the judge
40:44evaluates the quantum of the sentence.
40:46That is, how much is he going to give.
40:47Victor,
40:48we thank you very much
40:49for this communication,
40:50everything you explained to us.
40:51No, please.
40:53And also Ariel.
40:54Nice to meet you,
40:55as always.
40:56Thank you very much.
40:57Bye, Victor.
40:58Bye, Ariel.
40:59Bye, Victor.
41:00Thank you, Ariel,
41:01for being a witness.
41:02Yes, as is.
41:03No, please.
41:04I hope it is justice.
41:05That is the only purpose.
41:06No, thank you, Ariel,
41:07because what you were saying
41:08is true,
41:09that many times something like this happens
41:10and people for fear,
41:11for cowardice,
41:12for vagrancy,
41:13for whatever,
41:14they leave,
41:15they do not stay
41:16and then you lack the witnesses
41:17in something very important.
41:18So thank you.
41:19I prefer to do things right,
41:20which I know is how it corresponds
41:21and well,
41:22I hope it is justice.
41:23I want to repeat that.
41:24Of course, let it be justice.
41:25Thank you very much, Ariel.
41:26Thank you very much for the call.
41:27I hope you finish well.
41:28Bye.