En una entrevista, el ingeniero civil Claudio Riseto ofrece su perspectiva sobre las fallas en el control de obras que llevaron a problemas estructurales en edificios. Se cuestiona a Antonio Cortés, el empresario español que compró un hotel con problemas estructurales para renovarlo y si los permisos necesarios se obtuvieron legalmente. Riseto enfatiza la importancia del papel del profesional responsable en la supervisión de las obras.
"Hubo una falla en el control, era evitable"
"El responsable de la obra es el profesional"
Seguí en #QuienCuandoDonde #QCD
"Hubo una falla en el control, era evitable"
"El responsable de la obra es el profesional"
Seguí en #QuienCuandoDonde #QCD
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NewsTranscript
00:00With Claudio Riseto, who is a civil engineer, how are you, Claudio?
00:05Hello, how are you? Good afternoon.
00:07Claudio has the benefit, we have already consulted him several times, of being very didactic in the explanations, very simple, very flat.
00:14Claudio, I want to consult you, I remember that we spoke with you when it was about the famous tunnel,
00:19that phenomenal engineering work of the robbery that was frustrated to the bank.
00:23And there was perforation of floors and a lot of things.
00:26So, immediately, here talking about floors, I thought of you.
00:30Of what you see analyzed, because, let's see, we have as components for the analysis, and I want your opinion.
00:37The man advancing in an area of meadows.
00:40I can't, I go a lot to Hessel, I can't help but recognize that up to 70, 80 years ago,
00:45those were meadows that moved, that moved, and were fixed from deforestation.
00:50A titanic work of Carlos Hessel himself, the founder.
00:54But we are 100 meters away from the beach.
00:57From another pool, which is not usually looked at, but each time it has less beach.
01:01The water is advancing, well, later we are going to get into that.
01:04There is the assumption that something could have worked from the foundations.
01:09There is the work that they tell us that a part is cosmetic and another part, perhaps, they touched on something structural.
01:15Of everything you analyzed, what opinion do you have, Claudio?
01:20Well, I'm going to give you, let's see, I'm going to give you my opinion.
01:23Of course, based on assumptions.
01:26But before, if you allow me, I wanted to complement a little bit the excellent analysis they were doing before.
01:33When a professional, that is, an inspector or an official from a municipality,
01:39has his professional registration unauthorized to exercise the profession in the private sphere.
01:47If the person exercises the profession in the private sphere and is appointed in a public position as a municipal official.
01:55Then, immediately, he should resign.
01:59They are going to disable his registration and the owner has the obligation to appoint a new professional immediately.
02:09How important what you explained to us.
02:12Well.
02:13Saving this topic, which is a complement to the previous one, I'm going to tell you.
02:18At that time, in the meadows, which were obviously moving,
02:23the meadows have been, and in particular also in these constructions, have been fixed.
02:30The sand, the sand is rock, degraded by the effect of erosion.
02:35But if it is confined, it has the resistance of the rock.
02:39And there it has, it is not in an elevation, it has sloping constructions with sloping bases.
02:45Therefore, the degradation of the sand so that a base is bare is very unlikely.
02:53I presume, I presume that there is a simultaneity of causes that could have caused this.
03:02First, a maintenance failure over the years.
03:06Why do I refer to this?
03:08Because, sorry, because the marine environment on our Atlantic coast,
03:15and not to put many people in crisis, but to take due control,
03:21the marine environment accelerates the process of corrosion of the metal elements.
03:26The reinforced concrete structure contains iron,
03:30and this can be detected when cracks begin to appear and debris,
03:37concrete coatings.
03:40In general, people who do not know, do a cosmetic job,
03:44cover it, polish it, paint it,
03:47but inside, the resistant section of concrete has been reduced.
03:52And with that, the resistance of the structure is reduced.
03:55If this happens on all floors, in some columns,
03:59which are fundamental elements of the structure of the resistant part,
04:05it may be that some other cause can collaborate in producing this disaster.
04:12Claudio, I ask you, there is a hole, an elevator made in the front part,
04:17the building that did not collapse.
04:20Can the works, which apparently did not correspond,
04:24but were made and continued to be made,
04:27in that hole and in that parking lot,
04:30cause what happened behind,
04:33for some kind of collapse, even there on the ground or in the sand?
04:37No, no, no. It is very unlikely.
04:40It is very unlikely because, in addition,
04:42let's assume that it was a collapse in the back of the part that remained intact.
04:48If it had been like that, the building would have fallen forward.
04:52And yet it fell to the side.
04:55What I thought, in the first instance,
04:59when the news began to arrive on Tuesday,
05:02and with the comments of the people and the work they were doing,
05:06and of that, not permission, but of that notice,
05:10notice of works that were being done, minor works,
05:14that a professional does not intervene.
05:16What did I think?
05:18Let's see, I threw something.
05:19I say, let's see, they were changing some windows.
05:21I threw that.
05:22It was like that?
05:23I say, let's see.
05:24Yes, they were.
05:25And then I began to think, when one analyzes pathology,
05:27one begins to think about all the possible causes that may exist,
05:30and then one discards those that do not make sense.
05:33And I say, let's see, it may be that they are placing new windows,
05:37that the new windows are bigger, because they want more light,
05:41more ventilation, have other maintenance characteristics,
05:44of aluminum, of PVC,
05:46two hermetic windows for thermal and acoustic insulation,
05:49but if they are bigger, that's where they start to sting.
05:52And that's where they sting, and they sting a beam,
05:54which is the element of superior exhaustion,
05:56or they sting some columns that are on the sides.
05:59Now that, excuse me, the workers who are there,
06:02they don't sting anything without the order of an architect,
06:05or they are sent alone.
06:07Or a foreman, I understand.
06:10Yes, let's see.
06:11In general, in general, what should be done
06:15is that the owner should hire a professional,
06:18who is responsible, and that responsible professional
06:22is the one who indicates to the contractor what he has to do.
06:26Notice, Claudio, strikingly, that the man, the Spanish businessman,
06:30hired a former employee and a current employee,
06:34or at least that at the same time he became
06:36the director of private works of Villagecel,
06:38at least from the information we received a few minutes ago.
06:41Sure, let's see.
06:42If the former employee, the architect, was a former employee
06:46and can now perform his function as an independent professional.
06:51Now, beyond that, what I dare to say,
06:55I am 100% sure that there was a flaw in the control,
07:00a flaw in the professional control,
07:02because those things could have been warned,
07:06they could have been warned that the construction
07:08would eventually have some flaws,
07:10that they should not have intervened,
07:12or with a new elevator,
07:14that they could not have declared in the back,
07:17or with interventions, you will know what kind.
07:20That, clearly, with an inspection, supervision,
07:25it is called correct work direction,
07:28as it corresponds, it should have been warned.
07:31Let's see, Claudio.
07:32The professionals...
07:34Bobby, I understand that you have an important audio
07:37of a statement that can clarify us.
07:40We are preparing some plates for a while,
07:42we are preparing some plates to show them,
07:44but it goes very much in line,
07:46it goes very much in line with what Claudio is telling us.
07:49Because there is someone who worked,
07:52who perhaps the only difference that makes
07:54why he is not arrested,
07:56is because he was not working in the last few days,
07:58unlike the four who are.
08:01And there he realizes,
08:02now we are going to review it in a little while,
08:04because it is a document that we got
08:06almost at the time of going public,
08:08about what was being done.
08:10I want to advance, for analysis,
08:12of what we are talking about with Claudio,
08:14why he does this element.
08:15I advance it like this now,
08:16and in a little while we will review it with the plates.
08:18We are going to call Mr. G. to this statement.
08:21I started working in July.
08:23I worked for three or four months,
08:24from Monday to Saturday, from 8 to 17.30.
08:26On Tuesdays and Fridays, a woman architect came,
08:28who controlled the work we did.
08:30We were working on floors 8 and 7,
08:32at this stage.
08:33Let's also remember yesterday, Claudio,
08:35that others, those who are arrested,
08:37said that in the period of time
08:39in which they have been working there,
08:40they did it from 1 to 10.
08:42And they talk about something that you referred to, Claudio,
08:45which is the change of openings.
08:47Basically, going to a taste of the new owner,
08:52of the new owner,
08:53for wider window openings.
08:56They were replacing small openings,
08:58usual openings, the original ones,
09:00and some balcony doors.
09:02They were replacing them.
09:03And in that amplitude that they were looking for,
09:06visual, especially for the floors,
09:09from which you could get to have
09:11some visual of the sea.
09:13Let's remember that this hotel, Dubrovnik,
09:15is on Avenue 1,
09:16for those who do not know Villagese,
09:17Avenue 1 is the first from the coast,
09:21from the beach, inwards.
09:24And he says,
09:25we were working on floors 8 and 7,
09:27sometimes the owners appeared,
09:28each in a truck.
09:30Well, Toyota Hilux describes the owner.
09:32And here we go to the main thing.
09:34They were changing both elevators.
09:37He talks about two elevators,
09:38because so far we have always talked about one.
09:40They had already changed one.
09:42They were working on the change of the elevator
09:43until last Saturday.
09:45Since I am, I see that they were going to the place.
09:47They only changed the cabin,
09:48because of the pre-existing one,
09:49because the steel cables were in good condition,
09:52with which there was a savings in costs.
09:54And those who are arrested,
09:56if yesterday we showed the statement,
09:57they talk to us about window changes.
09:59So here there is a mix between a second elevator
10:02and also change of openings,
10:04which was what you were just referring to.
10:08Let's see, the change of an elevator
10:11would have to be taken a little with tweezers
10:13to see what they did.
10:15The reality is that they could be changing the elevator,
10:18change the cabin and leave the passageway,
10:20which is the hole through which the elevator circulates,
10:23without touching it,
10:24with which it remains in its original state.
10:26That is, there would be no major problem in that,
10:28beyond the fact that the change of an elevator
10:31involves the supervision, direction,
10:34of a professional with a license
10:37as an electromechanical installer.
10:40That is, for the electromechanical part,
10:42not for the structural part.
10:44Now, I believe, and I repeat again,
10:49we, the professionals,
10:50we are responsible for action or omission,
10:53for what we do not say as well.
10:56So, and having a professional in a work,
11:00the responsible is the professional.
11:02And also, we are also responsible
11:06and liable for sanctions
11:08for negligence, for imprudence.
11:13So, clearly, I believe that
11:17there must have been a responsible professional
11:21supervising the works,
11:23no matter how minor they are,
11:25and also seeing what other pathologies
11:29a building like this could have.
11:32And I always suggest and treat,
11:35through our organizations,
11:37the Council on Civil Engineering,
11:39to try to, let's say, induce the owners
11:43to do a supervision of their constructions,
11:48just like they do a change of oil
11:50in a thousand-kilometer-long car,
11:52to do a supervision of their constructions
11:54and of their installations.
11:55Claudio, we have...
11:56Yes, we have images of the repairs
11:59that were being done in the windows.
12:01Now, surely, Julio, you...
12:02We'll put it on air, Julio, our producer.
12:05And I also want to share the audio with you,
12:08with you too, the colleagues here,
12:10to share the audio of one of the workers.
12:12Because what Claudio says is very true.
12:15It's not that, from that moment on,
12:17the building had problems.
12:19The building already had problems.
12:20And, precisely, this Spanish businessman...
12:22Well, it's part of the reason for the sale.
12:23Exactly.
12:24Because the previous owner no longer had
12:26the economic backing to invest
12:28and make the improvements that were needed.
12:30And what was this man, the Spanish businessman,
12:32who we're going to talk about in a few minutes,
12:34dedicated himself to buying hotels
12:36that were not in good condition
12:38to repair them?
12:39For that, of course, you also needed
12:41some kind of permits.
12:43The question is whether all this was done
12:46by law or outside of law,
12:49ending up with this consequence.
12:51Let's listen to what one of the carpenters said.
12:55And these, for example, the ones here,
12:58although they are investing a lot of money
13:02in something that is practically done
13:06by hand,
13:08it's like wanting to set up
13:10Ale's little truck.
13:12They want to give it a face wash.
13:14They don't want it to be a hotel anymore.
13:16It's no longer going to be apart.
13:17You see, apart,
13:18it's practically a department, the hotel.
13:20I mean, they're going to take out the ladder,
13:22the under-table, the table,
13:24I don't know, they'll replace it with a sofa,
13:26I don't know.
13:28But because they'll have confectionery downstairs,
13:31you see, they have a confectionery,
13:32if they want to eat, they'll eat downstairs,
13:34and then they'll get tired.
13:36The idea is that they take out all the ladders,
13:39make them silver, sell them,
13:41all the under-table, everything,
13:43everything smells,
13:44and that it's no longer apart.
13:46Because for now, it's there.
13:48Apart Hotel Dubrovnik.
13:50And the placards,
13:52for now,
13:54they're going to give it a face wash,
13:56I'm going to do it from the sixth floor
13:59to the first floor,
14:01more or less condition it,
14:03and next year,
14:06or when the season ends,
14:08which I will continue,
14:09we will replace it all with melamine.
14:11Yes?
14:12And without doors,
14:13that everything is open.
14:14The architect didn't like it,
14:16but that's what I do.
14:18Well, this is the statement,
14:20what the carpenter says
14:22about what happened to the hotel,
14:23in what conditions the hotel was,
14:25which he probably bought for a very convenient price,
14:29this businessman,
14:31and then the face wash.
14:32You have to wash your face,
14:33because the season starts in a month.
14:35And look at what happened, Claudio.
14:38Today we are still looking for 6 or 7 missing people,
14:41we could be looking for 400 people
14:43under these rubble.
14:44Without a doubt, without a doubt.
14:46Unfortunately,
14:48unfortunately and luckily, right?
14:50Unfortunately for the people who are there,
14:52the relatives,
14:53luckily for what could have happened.
14:55But that's why I repeat again,
14:57that these situations
15:00of maintenance
15:02are not of now,
15:04and they will continue to occur.
15:06If the necessary funds are not taken,
15:08we will continue with this type of situation.
15:11And of course,
15:12the owners have to be aware
15:15of hiring professionals
15:18so that they are attentive to their work,
15:22that they go whenever necessary.
15:24And well, obviously,
15:25if they have a fee
15:26that they have to pay,
15:27I imagine that in the investment of this hotel,
15:30the salaries of a professional are minimal.
15:33They are really minimal.
15:34Yes, I told you.
15:35While we are chatting with you,
15:37we are reviewing from the inside,
15:39through this video and this recording,
15:43part of the work that was being done
15:44in the expansion of the openings,
15:46of the openings,
15:47in this to gain more luminosity,
15:50to be able to see outside,
15:51to be more attractive to the tourist,
15:54in the dining area and in other sectors,
15:56windows were being expanded.
15:58And it impresses me so much
15:59to hear from someone who knows,
16:01as a civil engineer,
16:02like Claudio Riseto,
16:03that there where one out there
16:04thinks that it is simply
16:05expanding a window
16:06so that more light enters
16:07or to have a more beautiful view,
16:09it may be affecting
16:11some tabique,
16:12some beam,
16:13something that is structural,
16:15because what came down from above
16:18are more than 10 floors.
16:20Let's see,
16:21let's leave,
16:22that is,
16:23this is a simple appreciation
16:24of the first instance, right?
16:26But one could replace carpentry
16:28without any problem,
16:29taking the necessary risks.
16:33I have been consulted
16:34on a lot of opportunities
16:36and we have made the calculation
16:37to take out a structural column
16:39and replace it
16:40with the necessary structure,
16:43with the foundations,
16:44with the columns,
16:45the tracks,
16:46that is,
16:47and one can easily do it.
16:49What happens is that it is a job
16:50that has to be
16:51done with a design engineering,
16:53with a supervision,
16:55a direction of work as it corresponds,
16:58an execution by specialized people.
17:00Yes, well,
17:01but it is assumed,
17:02sorry Claudio,
17:03it is assumed, Fito,
17:04that this is the specialized people,
17:05if one is the director
17:06of private works of Villagesel.
17:09Well,
17:10let's see,
17:11I don't know,
17:12there I don't ...
17:13You don't know what to say,
17:14the truth is that you don't know
17:15what to say,
17:16because neither do I.
17:17Fito?
17:18I'm going to ask you a question,
17:19Claudio,
17:20have you ever seen a building
17:21that has collapsed
17:23because of the change of windows?
17:26Good question.
17:27No,
17:28not because of the simple change of windows,
17:29that is,
17:30that is why I say
17:31there must be some additional question,
17:34but we had the collapse of Miami,
17:36which was a conjunction of things
17:38that had to be maintained,
17:39scheduled,
17:40periodic,
17:41in a short time,
17:42and yet the building collapsed.
17:44And we had,
17:45we have,
17:46we have had a lot of collapses here,
17:48of old buildings,
17:49that out there
17:50I have had to intervene
17:51and that out there
17:52do not come out
17:53through your channel
17:54or through some other means,
17:56because out there
17:57we have been lucky
17:58not to have fatal victims.
18:00It doesn't have this dimension,
18:01Claudio doesn't have this dimension
18:02of this tragedy.
18:03Of course.
18:04Claudio Arriceto,
18:05civil engineer,
18:06thank you very much
18:07for this contact,
18:08for this exchange.
18:09No, please,
18:10a pleasure.
18:11Good.