Draconian- Homosexuality in Uganda PART 1 of 2
This is a retrospective documentary about the situation of homosexuals in Uganda during the controversial debates around the infamous ” Kill the gay Bill” proposed by David Bahati in 2009 to the Ugandan Parliament and passed as Act in 2013.
The Act was dropped by the supreme court as “not conform to the constitution of Uganda” only few months later, leaving a deep scar on Ugandan’s Human Rights
With several one to one interviews, I captured both sides of the issue from pastors, politicians, teachers, activist and artists.
(Including the mister of ethic and integrity, the British producer David Cecil and the well known gay activist Dr Frank Mugisha)
The result is a crashing variety of opposite mentalities with only one thing in common, Uganda.
Produced filmed and edited by William Ranieri
This is a retrospective documentary about the situation of homosexuals in Uganda during the controversial debates around the infamous ” Kill the gay Bill” proposed by David Bahati in 2009 to the Ugandan Parliament and passed as Act in 2013.
The Act was dropped by the supreme court as “not conform to the constitution of Uganda” only few months later, leaving a deep scar on Ugandan’s Human Rights
With several one to one interviews, I captured both sides of the issue from pastors, politicians, teachers, activist and artists.
(Including the mister of ethic and integrity, the British producer David Cecil and the well known gay activist Dr Frank Mugisha)
The result is a crashing variety of opposite mentalities with only one thing in common, Uganda.
Produced filmed and edited by William Ranieri
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LearningTranscript
00:00When I moved to Uganda, I understood why Western Church had called it the pearl of Africa.
00:22It's a very beautiful country, beautiful natural parks, wild animals, lots of natural resources,
00:37a booming economy, and a very friendly and beautiful people.
00:58Nevertheless, Uganda has been of the centre of attention the last few years for a different
01:03reason.
01:05The so-called kill-the-gay bill.
01:11Let me sum up briefly what happened.
01:13A draconian anti-gay law was proposed in 2009 by one of the members of the parliament, Mr.
01:20David Bahati.
01:21This guy here.
01:22Well, I don't think that homosexuality is a human right.
01:28Apparently, Mr. Bahati spent some time in the States before coming back with this idea.
01:34Last night on this show, we aired part one of my interview with the man who authored
01:37and introduced legislation known by its cute nickname, the kill-the-gays bill.
01:42This is a bill that exists in a foreign country.
01:44This is not an American bill or American proposal.
01:46The reason the story of this bill has become American news is that the guy proposing it,
01:50the man who authored it and is lobbying for it around the world, including here, is a
01:55political product in many ways of the secretive religious group known as The Family.
01:59The Family operates the C Street House, where a number of members of Congress live in Washington
02:03and which has been tied to a number of recent Republican sex scandals.
02:07The Family, also known as The Fellowship, has an extensive international network that
02:11in part identifies and trains and supports and promotes the careers of guys like David
02:16Bahati, the man who authored the kill-the-gays bill.
02:19After years of controversial debate...
02:21One of the things they do is called enolicking, where a man's anus is licked like this by
02:31the other person, like ice cream.
02:33And then what happens, even the poo-poo comes out, the other poo-poo is out, and then they
02:38eat the poo-poo.
02:39When you have a law against homosexuality, do you say, except eating poo-poo?
02:47Sorry about that.
02:48After years of very controversial debate, the law was passed by the government in December
02:532013, without the approval of Mr. Yohairi Museveni, the Democratic elected president
02:59in charge since 1986.
03:01But then something made his change his mind.
03:04Those born homosexual, that's what I thought.
03:08I thought there were some people who were born homosexual.
03:14If somebody is born like that, are you right to punish him?
03:19In order to get to the truth, we involved Uganda scientists, as well as consulting scientists
03:25from outside Uganda.
03:27The reason I thought so was because I could not understand why a man could fail to be
03:32attracted to the beauties of a woman and still be attracted to a feral man.
03:39That is a very, very serious matter.
03:43It means something is radically wrong with you.
03:47It meant, according to me, that there was something wrong with that man.
03:51He was born a homosexual abnormal.
03:55Can somebody be homosexual purely by nature, without nature?
04:03The answer is no.
04:05Since nature is the main cause of homosexuality, then society can do something about it to
04:11discourage the trend.
04:14That is why I have agreed to sign the bill.
04:21And this is Museveni replying to an invitation for an open dialogue with misrepresented
04:27sexual minority groups.
04:29The gay community in Uganda is requesting to have a meeting with you.
04:32Would you give them an ear?
04:33What?
04:34The homosexuals in Uganda, they are requesting to have an audience with you.
04:41So they say...
04:42No, hold on!
04:45No, they say their side of the story has not been heard and they would kindly beg to meet
04:48you so that you get to hear their side of the story.
04:52The bill become the Anti-Homosexuality Act, with all the consequences.
05:12Let's start from the beginning.
05:14I spent six months in Uganda a few years ago.
05:17And while I was there, me being filmmaker and all that jazz, I managed to grab some
05:21really unique interviews with proper characters, including the Minister of Integrity.
05:26Yep, there is such a thing over there.
05:28As well as a world-famous activist, Dr. Frank Muchisio.
05:33So, sit back, relax and enjoy.
05:36This is a very contentious bill.
05:39A lot of sentiments go around this bill.
05:45Very many people believe that this is a good law, that this is a law that is going to stamp
05:50out vice.
05:53And it is a good law.
05:55And it is a good law, and it is a good law, and it is a good law.
06:00And it is a good law, and it is a good law, and it is a good law.
06:03It is a law that is going to stamp out a vice in the Ugandan community.
06:09But what I want to say is this.
06:11LGBTI people, lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgenders, are real people.
06:18They are real Ugandans.
06:19They exist among us.
06:21They are among the poor.
06:23They are among the middle class.
06:24They are among the rich.
06:26I know that this bill, if enacted into law, will go a long way in protecting the people
06:35of Uganda from being victimized by this ugly and negative behavior or orientation.
06:45This bill should be rejected.
06:46This bill should be thrown out.
06:48And international communities, especially diplomatic missions, have a role to play here.
06:52Do you think the Bahati bill will pass?
06:55No.
06:57I think if it passes, it will be a testament to the strangeness of Uganda as a country.
07:06Because I think that it's contrary to all of the human rights statutes that we hold.
07:12If the bill passes, I don't see how we wouldn't have a black spot on us from the international community.
07:22Unfortunately, Lindsay was wrong.
07:25The bill became an anti-homosexuality act in 2014.
07:29This is a victory for the family of Uganda, the future of our children,
07:35and certainly a triumph of our sovereignty as a country that got independence 50 years ago.
07:42But it didn't last long.
07:44Following an international outrage and suspensions of tens of millions of dollars in aids,
07:49the Constitutional Court of Uganda invalidated the Anti-Homosexuality Act in August 2014.
08:01The call for progress from the Western world is very often confused as an attack to the sovereignty of a country
08:08that took its independence only 50 years ago.
08:11A paradox when you think that the present homophobic law was left by the British Empire.
08:16It seemed the topic of homosexuals was provoked by the arrogant and careless Western groups
08:26that are fond of coming into our schools and recruiting young children into homosexuality and lesbianism,
08:33just as they carelessly handle other issues concerning Africa.
08:38I'm not able to understand the logic of the Western culture.
08:41Here we don't do things like that.
09:11There should be a way of making it not to come up.
09:15In that case it should be a man marrying a man so that there will be no production.
09:26I've had young men who come here to my office regretting for having fallen victims of that practice.
09:35And they said, when they were lured, they were told,
09:40if you become a homosexual, we shall provide you a home, a house,
09:45we shall provide education to your siblings and to other people who are your dependents,
09:52and everything will be good with you in terms of resources.
09:56And what does the person come up with?
09:59Gets the house, yes, gets the siblings attended to, gets all the amenities that he desires,
10:06but these particular ones who came here were regretting, saying,
10:10I am dying, although my brothers and sisters have a future,
10:15but here I have a back that I can't recover because they've lost their rectum control.
10:21Guys moving in pampas like babies.
10:23Some, obviously, believe that the West is actively promoting homosexuality.
10:28However, human rights groups are finding that there is a strong influence from the West in support of the bill.
10:35A lot of this influence has come from the West,
10:38from some of the conservative evangelicals in the West who believe,
10:42who say that homosexuality is a sin.
10:45And so some of our Ugandan-born again churches have taken that mantle
10:49and are passing around the same message.
10:52In to fight against what they term as immoral acts of homosexuality.
10:58And the drive possibly also comes beyond the country
11:02to influence of evangelical people from the West, especially in America.
11:09We've had stories of conferences, of religious gatherings,
11:15where the call has been reiterated,
11:17pass the bill, pass the bill, pass the bill.
11:20And then we've written to some of these groups and asked them,
11:25why are you doing this, how come you are here and there?
11:30We've challenged some of their supporters and donors in the West
11:34to challenge them on the fact that they are actually supporting discrimination of a minority group of people
11:39and spreading hate messages.
11:41And to our shock, some of the groups have denied.
11:43The media has actually been also quite negative towards LGBTI issues in terms of reporting
11:48and sometimes yes, reporting out of context.
11:50The most recent example has been actually the arrest and I would call it a vitriol arrest.
12:10The most recent example has been actually the arrest and I would call it a vitriol arrest
12:17and charging a British national, David Cecil, for a co-producer of the play called The River and the Mountain,
12:26which purely was a drama meant for entertainment and entirely David Cecil believes
12:32he was never meant for any activism or advocacy towards LGBTI issue.
12:36But simply because it had a scene that alluded to a gay business person
12:44was actually termed as promoting homosexuality.
12:47They will try anything. If they decide to be vindictive and they can't win in a conventional trial,
12:53then they'll try other methods.
12:55We're using this theme of homosexuality to explore contemporary Ugandan society.
13:00We're using this theme of homosexuality to explore contemporary Ugandan society.
13:04He viewed us as people coming from outside Uganda attempting to impose a kind of alien morality on the country.
13:12And on more than one occasion he asked me questions like,
13:16who is behind you?
13:18And so I was like, no, I don't.
13:21You know, acted innocent and well, I am innocent.
13:24And tried to convey to him that, you know, the reality of the situation,
13:30which is that I'm just interested in theatre.
13:33But he just couldn't believe that anyone would innocently come to Uganda to just simply put on a play.
13:41Unfortunately, David was deported. I met him in London the year after.
13:46How can a play featuring a gay guy seriously be said to justify emergency power deportation?
13:52It's not as if I'm a foreign spy trying to destabilise the state.
13:57So I think my case perhaps is a very minor one in the history of this particular struggle and situation.
14:06But nonetheless, I think that it's emblematic of the kind of panic that we've seen over the anti-gay movement.
14:14And I'm hoping that in the future people will just calm down about it.
14:17I think that in 20 years' time, surely we won't be talking about these things anymore.
14:22Perhaps even in a year's time.
14:24David, I really hope you're right.
14:26But let's go back to Uganda, where I asked the Minister of Ethics and Integrity
14:29what he thinks about the Western influence on the issue.
14:32If only they don't recruit, they don't promote, they don't induce others to join them in that thing,
14:38I wouldn't mind. We'll only continue cancelling them.
14:41In fact, I've opened a cancelling body to help them come back to their right senses and be able to judge.
14:50Why do you think the international community is so interested in this?
14:56As I told you, I have failed to understand how even the international community sees this as a thing to promote.
15:06And they are touching such stringent measures, like not giving resources,
15:13or not sharing budget, difficulties with people, until you say you respect this.
15:20There is what they put there as a reason, that is respect for human rights.
15:28Really? Really?
15:30What is a right?
15:32Is it a right for you, or a right for you, to go and punish another person?
15:38Because it is your right to enjoy what you want, so you go there and also touch another person.
15:43I can't accept this. This is completely unacceptable, intolerable.
15:48It's like saying, if you found three terrorists planning to blow this house,
15:54you leave them, continue with their discussion, because after all it is their right to assemble and associate.
15:59Is that what you want? No.
16:02I want to really declare my position clear.
16:06I don't agree with the international body when they support homosexuality or relationships of the same sex.
16:14I don't, because it is unnatural, it has no productive results, and it doesn't build any nation.
16:21Tell me, those nations now that have accepted to legalize this practice, what are they doing?
16:32They are going around looking for children to adopt.
16:35Is it not a shame for you to go and adopt somebody's child?
16:38If it was natural that you were not able to produce children of your own, I can understand, then you can go and adopt.
16:45But you are capable. But instead of directing your attention to a reproductive destination,
16:52you go the wrong way. Then you go and look for another person's child.
16:55This for me looks an absurdity. Even the angels cannot interpret this.
17:04I know very many people do enjoy straight marriage more than gay marriage,
17:09because gay partnership does not bring any desired fruit, let me say that.
17:15But you see, there is something that is true, that the church, these evangelical churches brought it here.
17:24You know, it becomes a tool for mobilization.
17:28Remember, what is the use? What is the purpose of these churches?
17:33You see, there is some which is written, but essentially it is money-making.
17:36So, in order for them to make a lot of money, they seize an opportunity,
17:42and they start mobilizing, and it becomes a mobilizing issue.
17:48To prove that they are doing a great job, you know, is satanic, something like that.
17:53But, yeah, I think it's not only religious leaders that need to be, but they need to be informed.
18:01And I think something is happening, even though slowly, but we need to educate also political leaders.
18:06Political leaders actually have more significance.
18:11If they say, let these people live their life, they have not committed any wrong, they have not stolen, they are not criminals.
18:18I think not only religious leaders, but all our leaders need to be informed.
18:23Another thing that straight marriage has been in place for a lot of time.
18:28It's for a long time, and this gay partnership is just an upcoming thing that is trying to take popularity just by surprise.
18:34So it will have a much impact on straight marriage.
18:38Anti-gay movement, which is what I like to call it, is simply using this as an opportunity to make money,
18:45or to promote themselves in their respective careers, I would say specifically pastors.
18:51Because I've spoken with pastors who don't know what the hell they're talking about when they're talking about homosexuals.
18:57I have observed a pastor speaking to a homosexual and telling him to donate his money to cure the illnesses that are suffered by homosexuals.
19:07So this homosexual is like, really? What kind of illnesses?
19:10You know, you will suffer from a collapsed anus.
19:13And I just had to be like, man, pastor, what do you know about this?
19:17You don't know what you're talking about.
19:19So they're just using it to promote themselves.
19:21I just don't think the noise is worth it.
19:23As a Christian, being homophobic and Christian, isn't there a contrast?
19:29Because Christianity says everyone is the same, everyone should be accepted.
19:34But then there is this side of Christianity that is actually homophobic, and says homosexuals are wrong and they have to be condemned.
19:43No, we have not said that.
19:44No, we have not said that.
19:46That's another thing.
19:48We have said that those who are homosexuals are actually tolerated, but not condoned, encouraged.
19:59I'm still using a status of a person with a disability.
20:05It would be uncomfortable to live with a person with a disability.
20:09But what do you do with a person who was born like that?
20:11So even for cases of homosexuality, they tell me, but the majority of those that I have known were recruited.
20:19Not because of the natural tendency.
20:21So they're not born like that?
20:23No, absolutely not. This is an acquired style of life.
20:27So we say, we don't discriminate.
20:32They can go to school, they can go and attend medical services, all other social services of this country.
20:38But please don't go and promote, don't encourage anybody else to join you, because it's already bad enough that you are there.
20:45Why should you like to get another person to suffer, who is quite like you?
20:49Yeah, it makes sense.
20:51Then when you know that, really, this practice does not take you anywhere.
20:56It doesn't produce fruits.
20:58Give me the results of homosexuality.
21:00What are the results?
21:03What comes out?
21:05What do you get?
21:06Just to live and die.
21:08Live and die. Finished.
21:10Just the relationship between two men, of course, cannot produce any children.
21:16But I mean, there are lots of heterosexual couples that have no kids.
21:20I wouldn't put it in the same way.
21:24No, but it's a lot, a lot, a lot.
21:27Those ones are understandable.
21:29It's because maybe one has had an accident and cannot follow the same line.
21:33But I'm saying, in a natural way, if you're a cockroach, the creature with the smallest brain is a cockroach.
21:41A male cockroach will never mistake to go and jump on a male.
21:45Absolutely not.
21:47A cockroach with the smallest brain, a human being with all intelligence, endowed by God, goes the wrong way.
21:54Something is wrong.
21:56We should help humanity.
21:58But there are gay chimps, actually.
22:01Gay gorilla and gay chimpanzee and apes. They do exist.
22:06That's not justification.
22:08People think that Uganda is a Christian country.
22:11And religious and culture, they think homosexuality is not African.
22:19It's being invented from the Western culture.
22:20Like the thing people in the West, in Europe and America, are putting in money,
22:26like recruiting children in schools to be homosexuals.
22:31For me, I think our legislators are totally embarrassing themselves with this legislation.
22:38Some church leaders come and stand in public and give outrageous statistics.
22:45Stephen Langer from the Family Network once said at a dialogue at Makerere University that 70% of gay men are child molesters.
22:57That's absolutely crazy.
23:00In Uganda, if not all, the cases of defilement that appear in the press is heterosexual.
23:14I'm a Christian.
23:16And I believe God loves everybody.
23:21And I don't think there is anyone on earth who can be a spokesperson for God and say God hates faggots.
23:27Well, people think it's a problem to be gay in Uganda.
23:30And partly because there are many different reasons.
23:33One of the aspects is that people are very ignorant.
23:36The second aspect is that there is a lot of religious propaganda.
23:39Religious leaders have told people, maybe to be very explicit, a lot of lies about homosexuality.
23:47And then people take that and they use that to harass and spread homophobia.
23:54The religious community, people have talked about Reverend Martin Sempa.
24:02He stayed in the US for some time.
24:04And I think when he came back, he came with a lot of those ideas.
24:09No wonder people sometimes link him to the Western evangelical preaching.
24:19I hate moralists.
24:21There's a minister, one of the guys who was also at the beginning of the whole anti-homosexuality bill,
24:29who has a serious problem with women wearing trousers.
24:31That's what I mean by moralists.
24:32It doesn't matter if they think homosexuality is immoral, they'll also think other things are immoral,
24:37and they'll fight against that.
24:39So a problem with being a moralist is you fight out of pointless battles.
24:43Another politician who has prominently come out to fight against, in entirety, the issues of LGBTI,
24:50issues including tracking and monitoring the activities of activists advocating for the rights of LGBTI community,
24:59has been Honorable Minister Simon Lokodo.
25:06On several occasions, he has actually himself, in February,
25:12had actually followed up and attacked and closed a workshop
25:18believed to be promoting homosexuality in Entebbe town.
25:22But in a real sense, the workshop was actually organised by one of the organisations promoting LGBTI issues,
25:32but was completely on different issues.
25:35Actually, it was a capacity building workshop.
25:37I am soon going to court, or have been summoned to go to court,
25:41for dispersing a gathering, a training of gay and lesbians in Entebbe,
25:48where lesbians in Entebbe tell you that we have empirical knowledge of promotion.
25:54There were over 40 people in that gathering,
25:57coming from Europe, coming from America, and other parts of Africa,
26:04plus Ugandans themselves, who were activists of this vise, equality vise.
26:10What were they doing there?
26:11They were empowering, they were enhancing,
26:17they were providing supportive courage and zeal to these individuals to go out
26:25and recruit others to come into their ghetto.
26:29Why do you think Mr Bahati introduced the bill in the first place?
26:36I think that's the crux of the matter.
26:38Why was the bill introduced at that time?
26:43My view and strong belief is that it came at a time
26:49after the regime had committed very serious mistakes,
26:54especially the way it treated the opposition leader
26:57and the kind of other actions that they were doing.
27:02And by that time, the regime was so badly damaged
27:08in the eyes of the international community.
27:12And therefore, they wanted to create or find a reason for distracting attention
27:21from the actions and consequences of the actions of the regime
27:29to something else.
27:31So this was a destructive process, a political gimmick
27:38to bring to the world so that they forget and they succeed to some extent.
27:44Stupid actions will not stop.
27:47They will continue to happen.
27:49And this is one of them.
27:51Why was the bill introduced in the first place?
27:56I had this idea of doing a documentary
28:00about what the French Ugandans say about the homosexuality thing in Uganda.
28:04The idea I had was to go to my friends who happen to be in this industry,
28:08who are filmmakers from Uganda.
28:11But then when I approached them to give me equipment,
28:14to come and work with me, they all refused
28:17because they just heard the word gay and then they all got scared.
28:21They didn't want to get involved in something like that.
28:23What is happening in Uganda, people are trying to shy away from the reality.
28:29The homosexuality thing is not new in Uganda.
28:32In Uganda, we had one of the greatest Ugandan kings called Mwanga,
28:38who used to be gay.
28:40Because I didn't get the equipment,
28:42I ended up doing this documentary with a mobile phone.
28:48There has been a great focus in the last couple of years in the West
28:53on Uganda's treatment of homosexuals.
28:56The difference between Africa and Western Europe
29:01is on the promotion of homosexuality,
29:04as if it is something good and so on and so forth.
29:07What happened in our traditional society
29:10is that the homosexuals would be known,
29:13it would not be approved, but it would be ignored.
29:16The drive has always been like
29:18an accusation that LGBTI community people promote and recruit children into homosexuality.
29:25Promotion means that those who adhere to this type of behaviour,
29:33this style of life, don't like to remain alone in the practice.
29:38They want to invite others, even those who don't have at all an inclination to it.
29:43What they do is they go there, indoctrinate them with all the values
29:46that would sound like, oh, this is the best way to go.
29:50That is what we call, you know,
29:53filling one's mind with truths that are false and fake.
29:58Two, these people are using the resources, financial aptitude that they have.
30:04And then the other thing I think, people in Uganda are very much,
30:08they are against the gay propaganda than the homosexual person.
30:13Because Ugandan people are very friendly,
30:14they are very loving and they are very nice.
30:17I'm openly gay, but I've got very many heterosexual friends,
30:21including family members who have no problem with me.
30:24Because they know me and they love me and they accept me.
30:28They don't really care about my being homosexual.
30:31But I'm very sure my own friends and my own family
30:35may have a problem with another gay person.
30:38Because in their head, they don't like the gay propaganda
30:44that has been told to them by the churches and some of the politicians.
30:49Whereby they say that homosexuality is about promotion and recruiting young children.
30:54So my friends have never seen me recruiting anyone
30:57and they have not seen me promoting.
30:59Because some of them, they don't even understand what promoting is.
31:02Because the religious leaders have not come out to explain what is promotion.
31:07But they say, oh, they are promoting homosexuality and they are recruiting children.
31:10But they are not explaining what promoting is.
31:12Because if they told people that promoting is actually advocacy
31:16for people to be included in HIV-AIDS services,
31:19promoting is advocacy of people to have rights as anyone else,
31:22promoting is advocacy of people to live with anyone else,
31:25then Ugandans would say, why the hell would I be against that?
31:30But I think promoting is trying to turn everyone into a homosexual.
31:36And that is practically impossible, because the whole world,
31:39the whole entire planet has heterosexual people and homosexual people.
31:44So homosexual people cannot be turned into heterosexuals
31:48and heterosexuals cannot be turned into homosexuals.
31:51These people are out there in the country convincing heterosexuals to come to homosexuality.
31:58And I say they use the indoctrination of psychological conviction and financial.
32:09But the Ugandan people do not understand it.
32:12They think everyone is after changing them.
32:15And then recruiting, they think that all the male,
32:19and they don't look at the women so much, they think all the male young children.
32:24And you know, every person loves children.
32:27You see a child and you feel empathetic for them in all levels.
32:32Because you love the children, because they are the future generation.
32:35Even us, when we were children, we were loved so much by many people.
32:40Someone just meets us on the street and is like, oh, you're such a cute boy.
32:44And people make that remark, because that is the reaction people have towards children.
32:48And religious leaders think, because people love children so much,
32:52so let us use children to put so much hate in people's heads.
33:00And so they say that homosexuals recruit young children to homosexuality.
33:03And you know, when you're talking about recruiting in Uganda,
33:07for a country that has a government that took over power by the gang,
33:13and had to recruit very many people into the army,
33:16so people, when they're recruiting, it resonates like something,
33:20like forming a movement that is going to take over something.
33:23So Ugandans think, they say, oh, recruiting, they are going to take over something.
33:27So they are going to take over the traditions of Uganda.
33:30And they become very, very annoyed.
33:33And they don't again understand, what does recruiting mean?
33:37And then they don't ask themselves, but how can someone get recruited into homosexuality?
33:42And honestly, if you ask many heterosexual people, can you be recruited into homosexuality?
33:46They say no. But why are you against recruiting of homosexuality if you can't be recruited?
33:51They say, because they don't want the children to be recruited.
33:53But what makes you think, if you can't be recruited,
33:56what makes you think any other child can be recruited?
33:58And then the other thing, if you look at, the religious leaders are being very hypocritical.
34:05If you look at our media, if you look at the Ugandan police,
34:09they have many times mentioned the abuse of children.
34:13And the abuse of children, the failment cases are on the increase,
34:16and it is mostly the girls who are being abused by heterosexual men,
34:21or heterosexual women abusing boys and giving them HIV AIDS, even in some instances.
34:26But the religious leaders have not come out to speak out against this kind of virus.
34:31It is very rampant and very big in our communities.
34:34Instead, they have chosen to speak about something that is very underground,
34:39something where they won't have to answer so many questions,
34:42something that people will really not question them, but people will just jump on the bandwagon.