KHABAR | Maria Memon | Constitutional Courts - Reserved Seats Case | ARY News | 24th September 2024
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00:00Assalam-o-Alaikum, with the program Khabar Lahariya, I am Maria Mehman.
00:30People's Party has taken up the responsibility of passing the bill.
00:33Bilawal was not only defending the bill, but was also talking about the limits of the bill.
00:41To pass the bill, Bilawal had adopted an assertive tone.
00:46It is surprising that the bill is being proposed by the current PMLN government.
00:52The legwork and drafting of the bill is being done by the government.
00:59But the government itself is missing in action.
01:01We have not heard a single statement from Mr. Nawaz Sharif regarding the bill.
01:06There is complete radio silence from Mr. Nawaz Sharif.
01:10We saw that the Chief Minister of Punjab did not comment on this matter.
01:14Bilawal was sitting with the Chief Minister of Sindh in the Sindh High Court Bar.
01:21The Sindh government and Bilawal's party are pooling their resources.
01:25They are trying to come up with a solution to this issue.
01:29Bilawal said in an assertive tone that the bill will be passed.
01:37The court of law is a necessity and a compulsion.
01:40We will make a court of law so that no other PM is put on the throne.
01:46We will bring judicial reforms.
01:49The court of law cannot make the law.
01:53The court has the power to amend the law.
01:58We cannot.
01:59The judges say that it is their wish.
02:01My lord, my lord.
02:02This cannot happen.
02:03If we want to make this judicial system powerful,
02:07every morning there will be equal representation in the court of law.
02:10The Chief Justice of the court of law will be on a rotation.
02:16Again, the Pakistan People's Party feels that the responsibility has been given.
02:20To make a consensus on this issue.
02:22To make statements on this issue.
02:23Today, Bilawal did a very interesting exercise.
02:25We saw that there was Vukla in the Sindh High Court Bar.
02:28He was from the People's Wing.
02:29His suggestions were also there.
02:30He was also taking notes.
02:31He was also answering them.
02:32The matter of 63A came to light.
02:35The debate on this issue has come to light.
02:39Because the Supreme Court has put a petition for the review of 63A.
02:43For the hearing on 30th September.
02:45In that regard, Bilawal lobbied very actively.
02:48Why should this decision of 63A be reviewed.
02:51Listen.
02:53When we were doing the 18th amendment.
02:55We increased the definition of 63A.
03:00Because it was against the Pakistan People's Party.
03:02This was a strong policy.
03:04Sometimes in the form of IJI.
03:05Sometimes in the form of parasites.
03:07Sometimes in the form of patriots.
03:08Sometimes in some form.
03:10So this became a consensus.
03:12To combat the floor crossing.
03:14You will be obliged to give the party line to the members of the parliament.
03:20If they decide.
03:21For any reason.
03:22If they want to go against the party line.
03:24Then they use the vote.
03:27It is counted.
03:28And then they have to fight by election.
03:30With the public.
03:33Now it is not so easy to bring the amendment.
03:35Because the government's own numbers are not complete.
03:38Maulana Fazlur Rehman has asked for at least a month.
03:41He has asked for time to read that draft and focus on it.
03:44One draft is with Maulana Fazlur Rehman's Jamaat.
03:47One draft is with Bilawal Bhutto's Jamaat.
03:50The PMLN's own draft has not come to the public yet.
03:53Many of their own MNAs or senators have not seen that draft.
03:58So how to pass this amendment.
04:01For that, a 63A review is needed.
04:03So that those who belong to different parties can vote.
04:07Their vote can be counted.
04:08And they are not unworthy.
04:10So is this the first step towards which Bilawal Bhutto is pointing.
04:14Because bringing the amendment is not the only purpose.
04:16They have to pass it too.
04:17Before the program, we have Bilal Azhar Qayani.
04:19Renwa Pakistan Muslimi Nawaz is with us.
04:21Barrister Umair Niazi.
04:22He belongs to Tehreek-e-Insaf.
04:24I will start with you, Bilal.
04:26You have outsourced the People's Party.
04:29Do you have any plans to make a consensus on the amendment?
04:31To make an opinion in the public domain.
04:33The draft should be finalized.
04:35Because Bilawal is playing on the front foot.
04:38PMLN is missing in action.
04:40We have seen it since that day.
04:42Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim.
04:43Thank you for having me on the show.
04:45It is not like that.
04:47The thing is that there are many things on which we and the People's Party agree.
04:52Constitutional courts is one of those things.
04:54So our leadership has been very vocal.
04:56On the floor of the house, you saw Khawaja Asif and Azam Tarar.
04:59And after that, continuously on talk shows and other forums.
05:05Azam Tarar spoke yesterday in a press conference as a law minister.
05:08Bilawal has his own opinion.
05:11And he feels strongly about the constitutional courts.
05:13So he is also there.
05:14Naturally, ownership will come from other parties.
05:17Only then will a constitutional amendment be possible.
05:20Given the fact that you need two-thirds majority in both houses separately.
05:24This is the one bill that cannot be passed in a joint sitting.
05:26So, I think the more the merrier.
05:30Constitutional courts is one of those things where we agree.
05:33And I totally agree with this argument of the constitutional courts.
05:37That is your joint opinion on this issue.
05:39That is also in the constitution.
05:40But we did not hear Mr. Nawaz Sharif's opinion on this in the public domain.
05:45That day he came to vote.
05:47Apparently, when the constitution came to know that the vote was not complete, he went back.
05:51You are bringing a legislation with such a big consensus.
05:54He is a three-time prime minister.
05:56What does he think about this?
05:57Please tell people.
05:58Look, it is not necessary for him to speak verbally on everything.
06:01Prime Minister Shabaz Sharif, when his government is moving a bill.
06:05And he is the nominated prime minister of Nawaz Sharif.
06:11So, he is acting on for the party.
06:14So, you don't need his opinion?
06:16No, look, for example, you take the example of People's Party.
06:19Mr. Sardari doesn't have to say this.
06:20Mr. Bilawal is saying.
06:21So, it is accepted as a fact that the party is speaking.
06:23In our case, when Mr. Shabaz Sharif, both as prime minister and as a very senior member of the party,
06:28after Mr. Nawaz Sharif, is saying something.
06:30So, that carries weight on Mr. Nawaz Sharif.
06:32I don't think it is necessary for him to speak verbally.
06:34But naturally, on such a constitutional amendment,
06:37our party and government would not have this stance if Mr. Nawaz Sharif's approval.
06:40So, I think that is a given.
06:41So, what happened that night?
06:42When the vote was not completed, Mr. Nawaz Sharif came.
06:44He had these assurances that the vote would be completed.
06:47He came to vote.
06:48Because when he came to know that the vote was not completed, he went back.
06:50So, was he ignorant that night?
06:52Or were he given assurances?
06:54That is a very sloppy execution.
06:56Look, I think that some people thought that perhaps Maulana had also agreed.
07:02There was a debate.
07:04A few days ago, a discussion was going on verbally.
07:06You saw that Mr. Shabaz Sharif had also met Maulana.
07:09Mr. Sardari had also met.
07:10Other meetings and discussions were going on.
07:12So, I think the people who were at that time steering this entire process
07:16perhaps felt that maybe there will be a coincidence in this timeline.
07:19But as it turned out that Mr. Maulana was not agreeing on some things.
07:22Which can happen on such important things.
07:24So, today where we stand is that even today a discussion is going on on the constitutional amendment.
07:28And who will finalize this?
07:29People's party will do it.
07:30PMLN will do it.
07:31Joint will do it.
07:32Because there are different versions.
07:33Look, I think, I am sure everyone's input will come.
07:35Eventually, if this government comes in the form of a bill,
07:38then naturally the law minister and AG and the same people will hold its pen.
07:42But there is no harm naturally.
07:43Look, everyone can have their papers on constitutional amendments.
07:46Every party can have their papers.
07:47People's party has Farooq Naik and many other parliamentarians and people who understand the constitution.
07:52Similarly, JUI has Kamran Murtazaab and many people.
07:55So, there is no harm.
07:56People have their drafts.
07:57So, final Musawwida, People's party will do it.
08:00Is it their responsibility to build consensus and tell you?
08:04I cannot say anything definitive on this.
08:07I think what is the most important thing is that there should be consensus.
08:11Eventually, if this government comes in the form of a bill,
08:15then naturally the law minister and AG and the same people will hold its pen.
08:18Where will Musawwida come from?
08:19There is no clarity yet.
08:20Look, proposals can come from many places.
08:22For example, there should be a constitutional course on one thing.
08:26Now, it can be based on its details.
08:28It is not everyone's consensus.
08:29It is your consensus.
08:30I am talking to the extent of People's party.
08:32It is not the consensus of the opposition.
08:33It is not the consensus of the legal experts.
08:35It is not the consensus of many lawyer bodies.
08:37It is not easy.
08:38I never meant to say that it is everyone's.
08:40I just said as an example that it is a coincidence with People's party.
08:43So, it is possible that Mr. Azam Tarar has put a draft in front of it.
08:48He will say that this is a working draft.
08:50It is possible that People's party will come with their own paper and say
08:52you would like this to be the base document.
08:54I think that doesn't matter.
08:55Whatever helps us achieve consensus on this important matter,
08:58whoever is holding the pen, I think,
09:01and eventually it can be agreed how the bill is going to be.
09:03Show it to the legal experts too.
09:05Maybe they will reject it.
09:08You saw that Mr. Azam Tarar went to a gathering of the Supreme Court Bar.
09:12Apart from that, there is a committee in the chair of Khurshid Shah.
09:14In which Mr. Maulana came and spoke.
09:16In which the opposition is also included.
09:18So, definitely, I think, as part of this process,
09:23the opposition has also been engaged.
09:25And I am sure that their comments, their views will be invited on this.
09:28And even proposals.
09:30I think there is no harm.
09:32I think in any case, no constitutional amendment can be passed
09:36until there is two-thirds consensus.
09:38And that by definition means broad consensus.
09:40But beyond that, if PTI can also, or SIC can also come on board,
09:45that's even better.
09:46I think there is no harm in that.
09:47You clarified SIC very cleverly.
09:49No, not at all.
09:50You raised a very fine point.
09:53Mr. Niazi, the government has spoken about Tarameen today.
09:59On that, Mr. Bilawal Bhutto is speaking on the court.
10:03And as we saw in his tone,
10:06he emphasized more on 63A than anything else.
10:10And he spoke very clearly about the court.
10:13The government is very serious about this.
10:15How can you oppose this?
10:18I mean, do you have any strategy?
10:20Do you have any strategy?
10:21They have it.
10:22That maybe they should try to vote through 63A.
10:25What strategy do you have?
10:28First of all, it is necessary to understand the legal system.
10:32There is a framework of our constitution.
10:34There are some implied limitations in it.
10:37If you take the principle of independence of judiciary,
10:41no one will disagree with it.
10:43There is a judiciary in which there will be a parliament,
10:48there will be an executive,
10:49no one can interfere in their working.
10:51That is their autonomous status.
10:53Now, what is being done through this constitutional amendment?
10:56Before doing this, why is it being done?
10:59One, they gave the decision of reserve seats.
11:03That was very unacceptable to you.
11:05And after that, it was decided that
11:07this court should be completely wiped out.
11:11And the Supreme Court should be treated in such a way
11:13that its role should be relegated.
11:15It should be taken down from the High Court.
11:17After the High Court, if this amendment is passed,
11:19the High Court will still have some constitutional powers.
11:22The Supreme Court should be dismissed.
11:24This is the objective.
11:26They are bringing it from this objective.
11:28And why are they bringing it?
11:29You say that you have to make a constitutional court.
11:32What is the objective?
11:33That people will be facilitated.
11:34People have to be facilitated.
11:35Your 22 lakh cases are in the lower forum.
11:38Where will that facilitation go?
11:40The problem is not with the facilitation.
11:42The problem is that you are not understanding your legal system.
11:44You are a Commonwealth country.
11:46In Commonwealth countries, there are no constitutional courts.
11:49Your Supreme Court is the constitutional court.
11:51It has a mandate.
11:53Your High Court is the constitutional court
11:55which guarantees the fundamental rights of the constitution.
11:58Those torchbearers are present.
12:00But the problem is that you do not like their decisions.
12:03If you do not like the decisions,
12:05then you want to inhilate the whole system.
12:07You repeatedly refer to the Charter of Democracy.
12:10The thing is that in the Charter of Democracy,
12:12there were many more vows.
12:14The ones from whom you have brought the amendment,
12:16the vows are present in that
12:18that you will not be a part of any government sponsored by them.
12:21Today, you are sitting in their government.
12:23Other than that,
12:25where will we publish the returns of all these people?
12:29You have written in that
12:31that ISI and MI will destroy their political wings.
12:34You have done it.
12:35The thing is that you are running someone else's agenda
12:38and in that agenda, you are attacking Adria.
12:40That attack will not be successful.
12:42Your principle is the point that came to it.
12:44My question is that their wisdom is very clear.
12:47In the review of Section 3A,
12:49they expect that
12:51there should be no consideration of voting rights.
12:54Other than that, they are also talking to Maulana.
12:57They are also talking to some of the eight people who are free.
13:01In the Senate, your Senators,
13:03probably,
13:05because it is difficult in the Senate,
13:07they can be targeted.
13:09So, you have confirmed your people
13:12regarding the affidavit of PTI,
13:14whether they are in the Senate or in the Communist Assembly.
13:17People are confirmed.
13:19It is a matter of intentions.
13:21If the politics of asking for good through horse trading is to be done in this country,
13:25then I will give a reference of CODU.
13:27In that, you deprecated the same thing.
13:29Why did you bring an amendment in Section 63A?
13:31You went to this extent.
13:33In that, you said that the election of the Senate should be open,
13:36not horse trading.
13:37When there is such a strict stance on horse trading,
13:40then why do you want to sell horse trading again today?
13:43No, no, I am not talking about horse trading.
13:45Mr. Umair is technically saying
13:47that the vote should not be counted
13:49and it should not be eligible.
13:51He is saying that it is a very harsh punishment
13:53that the vote should be counted and it should not be eligible.
13:55That is, it should not be eligible,
13:57and it should not be voted.
13:58This should be reviewed a little.
14:00He is saying this.
14:01Look, whatever you do,
14:04theft occurs in your house.
14:06Your thief is also punished.
14:09You demand that you return my jewelry.
14:11They say, no, I have been punished,
14:13so why should I return the jewelry?
14:15You want to protect the thief from all sides.
14:19The system is made for thieves.
14:21Look, the mirror is Pakistan.
14:22Don't make fun of it.
14:23Look at the interests of the people at this time.
14:26We will leave it on a limited agenda at this time.
14:28Okay, there are compulsions.
14:29Everyone has a compulsion.
14:30But in this compulsion,
14:32you are going to attack a court or a mirror institution.
14:35Mr. Umair, is it fair?
14:36Tell me your position in this regard.
14:38Mr. Bilawal also talked about the review of 63A today.
14:41The government also has a clear position on this.
14:43Because of the judgment of 63A,
14:45the Punjab government,
14:46we know about it,
14:47what impact did you have on it?
14:49So, the vote should not be counted,
14:51and it should also be nullified.
14:53Is this a fair punishment?
14:56Look, the way the case of 63A has been fixed,
15:00the federal government has made a lot of efforts in it.
15:04The ordinance that has been sent,
15:06that ordinance is basically
15:08in the spirit of the practice and procedure act.
15:11To take that ordinance at this time means
15:14that you have killed the practice and procedure act.
15:17You yourself made a decision in it.
15:19You did wrong, you did right.
15:20Parliament has decided one thing,
15:22that the Chief Justice will not be the Master of Role.
15:24And through this ordinance,
15:26what are you doing again?
15:27You have again made the CJP to do black and white.
15:31Okay, what is the purpose?
15:32That you think that we will get facilitation from that side.
15:35When there is such a melee free day atmosphere,
15:38what is the objective?
15:39The objective is that we have to tame the court in some way.
15:42Look, that is not happening.
15:44Petitions have already gone to the Supreme Court.
15:46All across lawyers' bodies,
15:48they are not able to gauge this resentment.
15:50It is not as easy as they are going to do.
15:53Look, apart from lawyers,
15:54the fallout of the judges at this time,
15:57they do not even realize that.
15:59How will the judges react?
16:00Overall, in the system,
16:02you are thinking that this is a government officer
16:04who will pick him up from here and transfer him to Balochistan.
16:08How is this possible?
16:09It is a constitutional body.
16:11Its judges have a right.
16:14They have to dispense justice.
16:16They have security of tenure.
16:18Things are there.
16:19You want to override everything
16:21and try to find a solution for the crops.
16:23Okay, what you are saying is that
16:25they are not able to gauge.
16:26Two questions related to this.
16:27Firstly, your position on 63A is that
16:29it should be reviewed.
16:32What exactly do you want?
16:33Should the vote not be counted?
16:34Should the vote not be counted?
16:35What is a fair punishment?
16:38Before we discuss what should be done,
16:41we have to see what it is.
16:44According to me,
16:45the judgment of the Supreme Court of 63A
16:47is a classic case of rewriting the constitution.
16:49The Shik of the 63A of the Constitution
16:52is very clear.
16:53It clearly defines the violation.
16:55If a person votes
16:57in these matters against party lines,
16:59if a person votes in these matters,
17:01then as a result of his violation,
17:04there will be a defection.
17:05As a result of which, he will be de-seated.
17:07The violation is also clearly defined.
17:09His punishment is also clearly defined.
17:11The framers of the constitution,
17:12the parliamentarians,
17:13passed this with two-thirds majority.
17:15What did the Supreme Court do?
17:16They added an additional penalty
17:18that your vote will not be counted.
17:19Although there was no objection in this Shik.
17:21This is not an interpretation.
17:22This is an addition to the Shik.
17:24This is almost like adding a penalty.
17:26This is like tightening the water.
17:27No, no, no.
17:28So that no one thinks
17:29that there will be no votes.
17:30You are making it more difficult.
17:32No, no.
17:33If there is an addition to such a penalty,
17:36then only the parliamentarians can do this.
17:38The Supreme Court has no right to add a penalty.
17:40They can interpret the constitution
17:42when there is an objection.
17:44There was no need for an interpretation here.
17:47There can be a debate on this.
17:49And in the future,
17:50when two-thirds of the National Assembly
17:51and two-thirds of the Senate agree on this,
17:53then you can add to it or reduce it.
17:55In my opinion, this decision was wrong
17:57and it would have been better
17:58if the Supreme Court itself corrected it.
18:00This review petition has been pending for a long time.
18:02If it corrects it rightfully,
18:05then it will comply with the will of the parliament.
18:07So what is the principle position of Pamelon?
18:09Should the vote not be counted?
18:11No, as per the 63A right to hear,
18:13What is the ideal situation?
18:14As per the 63A right to hear,
18:16now the vote should be counted.
18:18The framers of the constitution were very clear
18:20that you can vote.
18:21But if you vote, then you can be de-seated.
18:23This right was given to the voter
18:25and its punishment was also clearly defined.
18:27It should be complied with.
18:30Mr. Umair, what you are saying is that
18:32it is written in the constitution
18:33that the vote should be counted,
18:35but it should be de-seated.
18:36What problem do you see in this?
18:38Firstly, secondly,
18:39is this not a prerogative of the parliament?
18:42Can this matter be left to the interpretation of the court?
18:48These are two different things.
18:50See, who has to interpret the constitution?
18:52You cannot interpret it.
18:54What do we take guidance from?
18:56We take guidance from the judgment of the Supreme Court.
18:58If the judgment is overruled,
19:00a different law will be settled,
19:02a different interpretation will come.
19:04Today, the judgment in the field
19:06has to be followed.
19:08The second thing you are talking about is legislative competence.
19:11Legislative competence is with the parliament.
19:15But where does the parliament draw it from?
19:17It draws it from the public,
19:18legislative competence.
19:20Look at their election speeches.
19:23Did the People's Party,
19:24did the Moon League vote on this?
19:26That we will come,
19:27we will amend Article 63.
19:29This is a big injustice.
19:31Until you have a mandate from the public,
19:33the primary mandate is from the public,
19:35you exercise that.
19:37It is not that every assembly
19:38comes and messes with the constitution,
19:40changes the constitution.
19:41This does not happen.
19:42For this, you need a proper mandate.
19:44And this assembly does not have it at all.
19:46One is because of these reasons
19:48that it is not in the election manifesto.
19:50Secondly,
19:51their status is disputed.
19:53More than 85 election petitions are pending.
19:55Until their fate is not decided,
19:57180 days have passed.
19:59The election act timeline
20:01is over.
20:03The status is disputed.
20:04The parliament,
20:05not us,
20:06all institutions,
20:07everyone outside,
20:08everyone is saying that the status is disputed.
20:10In that, you cannot do such legislation,
20:12such constitutional amendments.
20:14Okay.
20:15The practice and procedure
20:16that Mr. Umair talked about,
20:18is this right?
20:19If you talk to any legislator,
20:22and especially if you talk about
20:24not implementing the judgment,
20:26they say that the judgment has to be implemented.
20:28Are you not doing the right gauge?
20:30Have you made the wrong estimates?
20:33Have you kept the reaction of the judge
20:35of Bukla bodies in mind?
20:37Look, look,
20:38the thing is that,
20:39now take the example of 63A.
20:40A judgment has come
20:41which we think is wrong.
20:42We hope that the court will correct it.
20:44If it does not,
20:45then the parliament has full authority
20:47to bring it in the shape and form
20:49that 63A wanted.
20:50These are the tools that are available.
20:52If the Supreme Court,
20:53which in my view,
20:54this is a classic case of rewriting the constitution.
20:56Why didn't you do it earlier?
20:57Before the election,
20:58when you had the assembly,
20:59you had a decent presence there.
21:01No, no,
21:02two-thirds,
21:03two-thirds union.
21:04But the PDI was not in Vivaan.
21:05The Maulana did not have to make it.
21:06Everyone was on board.
21:07The experience of PDM 1
21:08was on the same page.
21:09No, but two-thirds of the house was not available.
21:11Not even now, right?
21:12This is the problem.
21:13Hence, we are trying to build consensus.
21:14And even today,
21:15I am saying that
21:16the Supreme Court should itself
21:17correct this rewriting.
21:18As far as practice and procedure is concerned,
21:20as far as the ordinance is concerned,
21:22look,
21:23first of all,
21:24I am happy that
21:25those people who said two years ago
21:26that practice and procedure
21:27should be a stay order
21:28at that time,
21:29this is an attack on the independence of judiciary.
21:30Today, they accept
21:31that this is a democratization of the Supreme Court.
21:33And instead of one person,
21:34three judges should have the authority.
21:36PTI included,
21:37who are making noise about this today,
21:39that why did the ordinance come?
21:40This is such a good setup that is going on.
21:42I am happy that they accepted this.
21:45Even today,
21:46the power is not given to one person.
21:47Only three judges have the authority.
21:49But a flexibility has been put in it.
21:51Look,
21:52your third judge
21:53has such a flexibility
21:55that in order for the continuity of the court,
21:57that committee should remain active,
21:59even if a judge is not present
22:01or is not available,
22:02a quorum is present.
22:03No, no,
22:04if you bound it with the seniority principle,
22:06I would have agreed with you.
22:07Now,
22:08the statement of the third judge,
22:10no matter who the Chief Justice is,
22:11I do not want to talk about the person specific,
22:12I have given it to him.
22:13That is,
22:14he has the power
22:15that a general vote has come.
22:16It has happened now.
22:17Mansoor Ali Shah sir
22:18will not sit in the committee.
22:19Look,
22:20Mansoor Ali Shah sir
22:21can also not pick and choose
22:23the laws he likes
22:24and wants to implement
22:25and does not want to implement.
22:26This is not a good precedent
22:27to set by a senior Supreme Court judge.
22:29Your problem that you are saying
22:30that this has not happened,
22:31this problem is not solved.
22:32If you keep it
22:33on the responsibility of the Chief Justice
22:35that the third judge should choose him,
22:37then you give more power to that office.
22:39Why don't you devolve it?
22:41Look,
22:42this is still an ordinance
22:44and naturally
22:45when it comes in the form of a bill,
22:47it will become a permanent law
22:48only when it will be passed by both the houses.
22:50And in this ordinance,
22:51apart from this one thing,
22:52according to me,
22:53when the practice and procedure bill came first,
22:55then the power was divided into three
22:56from the individual and the public
22:57and this flexibility came in it.
22:58Laws evolve and change like this
22:59according to the situation of the hour.
23:01Political news.
23:02No,
23:03no,
23:04no,
23:05no,
23:06no,
23:07no,
23:08no,
23:09no,
23:10no,
23:11no,
23:12no,
23:13no,
23:14no,
23:15no,
23:16no,
23:17no,
23:18no,
23:19no,
23:20no,
23:21no,
23:22no,
23:23no,
23:24no,
23:25no,
23:26no,
23:27no,
23:28no,
23:29no,
23:30no,
23:31no,
23:32no,
23:33no,
23:34no,
23:35no,
23:36no,
23:37no,
23:38no,
23:39no,
23:40no,
23:41no,
23:42no,
23:43no,
23:44no,
23:45no,
23:46no,
23:47no,
23:48no,
23:49no,
23:50no,
23:51no,
23:52no,
23:53no,
23:54no,
23:55no,
23:56no,
23:57no,
23:58no,
23:59no,
24:00no,
24:01no,
24:02no,
24:03no,
24:04no,
24:05no,
24:06no,
24:07no,
24:08no,
24:09no,
24:10no,
24:11no,
24:12no,
24:13no,
24:14no,
24:15no,
24:16no,
24:17no,
24:18no,
24:19no,
24:20no,
24:21no,
24:22no,
24:23no,
24:24no,
24:25no,
24:26no,
24:27no,
24:28no,
24:29no,
24:30no,
24:31no,
24:32no,
24:33no,
24:34no,
24:35no,
24:36no,
24:37no,
24:38no,
24:39no,
24:40no,
24:41no,
24:42no,
24:43no,
24:44no,
24:45no,
24:46no,
24:47no,
24:48no,
24:49no,
24:50no,
24:51no,
24:52no,
24:53no,
24:54no,
24:55no,
24:56no,
24:57no,
24:58no,
24:59no,
25:00no,
25:01no,
25:02no,
25:03no,
25:04no,
25:05no,
25:06no,
25:07no,
25:08no,
25:09no,
25:10no,
25:11no,
25:12no,
25:13no,
25:14no,
25:15no,
25:16no,
25:17no,
25:18no,
25:19no,
25:20no,
25:21no,
25:22no,
25:23no,
25:24no,
25:25no,
25:26no,
25:27no,
25:28no,
25:29no,
25:30no,
25:31no,
25:32no,
25:33no,
25:34no,
25:35no,
25:36no,
25:37no,
25:38no,
25:39no,
25:40no,
25:41no,
25:42no,
25:43no,
25:44no,
25:45no,
25:46no,
25:47no,
25:48no,
25:49no,
25:50no,
25:51no,
25:52no,
25:53no,
25:54no,
25:55no,
25:56no,
25:57no,
25:58no,
25:59no,
26:00no,
26:01no,
26:02no,
26:03no,
26:04no,
26:05no,
26:06no,
26:07no,
26:08no,
26:09no,
26:10no,
26:11no,
26:12no,
26:13no,
26:14no,
26:15no,
26:16no,
26:17no,
26:18no,
26:19no,
26:20no,
26:21no,
26:22no,
26:23no,
26:24no,
26:25no,
26:26no,
26:27no,
26:28no,
26:29no,
26:30no,
26:31no,
26:32no,
26:33no,
26:34no,
26:35no,
26:36no,
26:37no,
26:38no,
26:39no,
26:40no,
26:41no,
26:42no,
26:43no,
26:44no,
26:45no,
26:46no,
26:47no,
26:48no,
26:49no,
26:50no,
26:51no,
26:52no,
26:53no,
26:54no,
26:55no,
26:56no,
26:57no,
26:58no,
26:59no,
27:00no,
27:01no,
27:02no,
27:03no,
27:04no,
27:05no,
27:06no,
27:07no,
27:08no,
27:09no,
27:10no,
27:11no,
27:12no,
27:13no,
27:14no,
27:15no,
27:16no,
27:17no,
27:18no,
27:19no,
27:20no,
27:21no,
27:22no,
27:23no,
27:24no,
27:25no,
27:26no,
27:27no,
27:28no,
27:29no,
27:30no,
27:31no,
27:32no,
27:33no,
27:34no,
27:35no,
27:36no,
27:37no,
27:38no,
27:39no,
27:40no,
27:41no,
27:42no,
27:43no,
27:44no,
27:45no,
27:46no,
27:47no,
27:48no,
27:49no,
27:50no,
27:51no,
27:52no,
27:53no,
27:54no,
27:55no,
27:56no,
27:57no,
27:58no,
27:59no,
28:00no,
28:01no,
28:02no,
28:03no,
28:04no,
28:05no,
28:06no,
28:07no,
28:08no,
28:09no,
28:10no,
28:11no,
28:12no,
28:13no,
28:14no,
28:15no,
28:16no,
28:17no,
28:18no,
28:19no,
28:20no,
28:21no,
28:22no,
28:23no,
28:24no,
28:25no,
28:26no,
28:27no,
28:28no,
28:29no,
28:30no,
28:31no,
28:32no,
28:33no,
28:34no,
28:35no,
28:36no,
28:37no,
28:38no,
28:39no,
28:40no,
28:41no,
28:42no,
28:43no,
28:44no,
28:45no,
28:46no,
28:47no,
28:48no,
28:49no,
28:50no,
28:51no,
28:52no,
28:53no,
28:54no,
28:55no,
28:56no,
28:57no,
28:58no,
28:59no,
29:00no,
29:01no,
29:02no,
29:03no,
29:04no,
29:05no,
29:06no,
29:07no,
29:08no,
29:09no,
29:10no,
29:11no,
29:12no,
29:13no,
29:14no,
29:15no,
29:16no,
29:17no,
29:18no,
29:19no,
29:20no,
29:21no,
29:22no,
29:23no,
29:24no,
29:25no,
29:26no,
29:27no,
29:28no,
29:29no,
29:30no,
29:31no,
29:32no,
29:33no,
29:34no,
29:35no,
29:36no,
29:37no,
29:38no,
29:39no,
29:40no,
29:41no,
29:42no,
29:43no,
29:44no,
29:45no,
29:46no,
29:47no,
29:48no,
29:49no,
29:50no,
29:51no,
29:52no,
29:53no,
29:54no,
29:55no,
29:56no,
29:57no,
29:58no,
29:59no,
30:00no,
30:01no,
30:02no,
30:03no,
30:04no,
30:05no,
30:06no,
30:07no,
30:08no,
30:09no,
30:10no,
30:11no,
30:12no,
30:13no,
30:14no,
30:15no,
30:16no,
30:17no,
30:18no,
30:19no,
30:20no,
30:21no,
30:22no,
30:23no,
30:24no,
30:25no,
30:26no,
30:27no,
30:28no,
30:29no,
30:30no,
30:31no,
30:32no,
30:33no,
30:34no,
30:35no,
30:36no,
30:37no,
30:38no,
30:39no,
30:40no,
30:41no,
30:42no,
30:43no,
30:44no,
30:45no,
30:46no,
30:47no,
30:48no,
30:49no,
30:50no,
30:51no,
30:52no,
30:53no,
30:54no,
30:55no,
30:56no,
30:57no,
30:58no,
30:59no,
31:00no,
31:01no,
31:02no,
31:03no,
31:04no,
31:05no,
31:06no,
31:07no,
31:08no,
31:09no,
31:10no,
31:11no,
31:12no,
31:13no,
31:14no,
31:15no,
31:16no,
31:17no,
31:18no,
31:19no,
31:20no,
31:21no,
31:22no,
31:23no,
31:24no,
31:25no,
31:26no,
31:27no,
31:28no,
31:29no,
31:30no,
31:31no,
31:32no,
31:33no,
31:34no,
31:35no,
31:36no,
31:37no,
31:38no,
31:39no,
31:40no,
31:41no,
31:42no,
31:43no,
31:44no,
31:45no,
31:46no,
31:47no,
31:48no,
31:49no,
31:50no,
31:51no,
31:52no,
31:53no,
31:54no,
31:55no,
31:56no,
31:57no,
31:58no,
31:59no,
32:00no,
32:01no,
32:02no,
32:03no,
32:04no,
32:05no,
32:06no,
32:07no,
32:08no,
32:09no,
32:10no,
32:11no,
32:12no,
32:13no,
32:14no,
32:15no,
32:16no,
32:17no,
32:18no,
32:19no,
32:20no,
32:21no,
32:22no,
32:23no,
32:24no,
32:25no,
32:26no,
32:27no,
32:28no,
32:29no,
32:30no,
32:31no,
32:32no,
32:33no,
32:34no,
32:35no,
32:36no,
32:37no,
32:38no,
32:39no,
32:40no,
32:41no,
32:42no,
32:43no,
32:44no,
32:45no,
32:46no,
32:47no,
32:48no,
32:49no,
32:50no,
32:51no,
32:52no,
32:53no,
32:54no,
32:55no,
32:56no,
32:57no,
32:58no,
32:59no,
33:00no,
33:01no,
33:02no,
33:03no,
33:04no,
33:05no,
33:06no,
33:07no,
33:08no,
33:09no,
33:10no,
33:11no,
33:12no,
33:13no,
33:14no,
33:15no,
33:16no,
33:17no,
33:18no,
33:19no,
33:20no,
33:21no,
33:22no,
33:23no,
33:24no,
33:25no,
33:26no,
33:27no,
33:28no,
33:29no,
33:30no,
33:31no,
33:32no,
33:33no,
33:34no,
33:35no,
33:36no,
33:37no,
33:38no,
33:39no,
33:40no,
33:41no,
33:42no,
33:43no,
33:44no,
33:45no,
33:46no,
33:47no,
33:48no,
33:49no,
33:50no,
33:51no,
33:52no,
33:53no,
33:54no,
33:55no,
33:56no,
33:57no,
33:58no,
33:59no,
34:00no,
34:01no,
34:02no,
34:03no,
34:04no,
34:05no,
34:06no,
34:07no,
34:08no,
34:09no,
34:10no,
34:11no,
34:12no,
34:13no,
34:14no,
34:15no,
34:16no,
34:17no,
34:18no,
34:19no,
34:20no,
34:21no,
34:22no,
34:23no,
34:24no,
34:25no,
34:26no,
34:27no,
34:28no,
34:29no,
34:30no,
34:31no,
34:32no,
34:33no,
34:34no,
34:35no,
34:36no,
34:37no,
34:38no,
34:39no,
34:40no,
34:41no,
34:42no,
34:43no,
34:44no,
34:45no,
34:46no,
34:47no,
34:48no,
34:49no,
34:50no,
34:51no,
34:52no,
34:53no,
34:54no,
34:55no,
34:56no,
34:57no,
34:58no,
34:59no,
35:00no,
35:01no,
35:02no,
35:03no,
35:04no,
35:05no,
35:06no,
35:07no,
35:08no,
35:09no,
35:10no,
35:11no,
35:12no,
35:13no,
35:14no,
35:15no,
35:16no,
35:17no,
35:18no,
35:19no,
35:20no,
35:21no,
35:22no,
35:23no,
35:24no,
35:25no,
35:26no,
35:27no,
35:28no,
35:29no,
35:30no,
35:31no,
35:32no,
35:33no,
35:34no,
35:35no,
35:36no,
35:37no,
35:38no,
35:39no,
35:40no,
35:41no,
35:42no,
35:43no,
35:44no,
35:45no,
35:46no,
35:47no,
35:48no,
35:49no,
35:50no,
35:51no,
35:52no,
35:53no,
35:54no,
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35:56no,
35:57no,
35:58no,
35:59no,
36:00no,
36:01no,
36:02no,
36:03no,
36:04no,
36:05no,
36:06no,
36:07no,
36:08no,
36:09no,
36:10no,
36:11no,
36:12no,
36:13no,
36:14no,
36:15no,
36:16no,
36:17no,
36:18no,
36:19no,
36:20no,
36:21no,
36:22no,
36:23no,
36:24no,
36:25no,
36:26no,
36:27no,
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36:29no,
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36:33no,
36:34no,
36:35no,
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36:37no,
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36:39no,
36:40no,
36:41no,
36:42no,
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36:50no,
36:51no,
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36:53no,
36:54no,
36:55no,
36:56no,
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36:59no,
37:00no,
37:01no,
37:02no,
37:03no,
37:04no,
37:05no,
37:06no,
37:07no,
37:08no,
37:09no,
37:10no,
37:11no,
37:12no,
37:13no,
37:14no,
37:15no,
37:16no,
37:17no,
37:18no,
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37:20no,
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37:22no,
37:23no,
37:24no,
37:25no,
37:26no,
37:27no,
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37:31no,
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37:33no,
37:34no,
37:35no,
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37:37no,
37:38no,
37:39no,
37:40no,
37:41no,
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37:48no,
37:49no,
37:50no,
37:51no,
37:52no,
37:53no,
37:54no,
37:55no,
37:56no,
37:57no,
37:58no,
37:59no,
38:00no,
38:01no,
38:02no,
38:03no,
38:04no,
38:05no,
38:06no,
38:07no,
38:08no,
38:09no,
38:10no,
38:11no,
38:12no,
38:13no,
38:14no,
38:15no,
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38:17no,
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38:25no,
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39:00no,
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39:55no,
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39:59no,
40:00no,
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41:09no,
41:10no,
41:11no,
41:12no,
41:13no,
41:14no,
41:15no,
41:16no,
41:17no,
41:18no,
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42:00no,
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45:24no,
45:25that they can neither cast their vote against the party line, nor get it counted, and if they do such a thing, then they are not even qualified.
45:35That is why it was necessary for us to reach a minimum consensus, and for that minimum consensus, we need the support of Mullah Nazir Fazal Rehman.
45:45While discussing further, Bilawal said that it is necessary to review this case, because in the past, people's party and Benazir Bhutto's government were in conflict.
45:55And at that time, the IJI and other parties, to destabilize the governments of the people's party, they had a political conflict.
46:04When we were doing the 18th amendment, we increased the definition of 63A because it was against the Pakistan People's Party.
46:13This was a strong policy, sometimes in the form of IJI, sometimes in the form of parasites, sometimes in the form of patriots, sometimes in some form or another.
46:21So when this consensus was made that to combat the floor crossing, you will be obliged to give the party line to the members of the parliament.
46:31If they decide, for any reason, to go against the party line, then they use the vote, it is counted, and then they have to fight by-election with the public.
46:42It is true that the people's party's government was destabilized, but this is not the whole truth.
46:50The whole truth is that the people's party has also destabilized in different ways, whether it is the elections of the Senate.
46:58Let's take a look at a brief history of this.
47:01After the 1988 elections, Nawaz Sharif, when he was becoming the Prime Minister of Punjab, to get his and Azad Arqan's support, he was kept in Chhanga Manga Rest Houses.
47:12This term of Chhanga Manga has become popular in Pakistan's politics since then.
47:16On 1st November 1989, the Prime Minister of that time voted against Benazir Bhutto, and on 237th Aiwaan, 124 Arqan's voted for him and made the movement a failure.
47:28But from here, the term horse trading has become a common term.
47:34It so happened that Nawaz Sharif, the Prime Minister of Punjab, to make the movement against Benazir Bhutto a success, brought his and Azad Arqan near Lahore and kept them in Chhanga Manga Rest Houses.
47:46Because of Operation Midnight Jackal, the Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, before the movement of Adham Etamat, possibly increased the contacts with his loyal Arqan.
47:56And before Adham Etamat, he kept them in a rest house in Swat.
48:00In 1993, horse trading was accused in Punjab, and the movement of Adham Etamat against Gulam Haider Wai was a success.
48:08And since Benazir Bhutto was becoming the Prime Minister, the People's Party once again accused Nawaz Sharif of buying Arrakeen.
48:15The press named Surajan as Lota Krasi.
48:18And such Arqans, who were changing their connections again and again, were awarded the title of Lota.
48:23During this time, there were many other ups and downs.
48:25But we can't forget the Senate elections in 2018.
48:28In the 2018 Senate elections, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa's PTI's B.S. Arrakeen Assembly was accused of horse trading.
48:35Which was benefitted by Noon League and People's Party.
48:39August 2019 was not a distant past, we all remember.
48:43The movement of Adham Etamat against Senate Chairman Sadiq Sanjrani, despite the majority, was a failure.
48:50In April 2022, the PTI's more than 14 Arrakeen Assemblies rebelled against the former PM Bani Chairman PTI Imran Khan.
49:01And after that, the movement of Adham Etamat was successful.
49:04So, the politics of Jor Tod and Chhanga Manga has a great history in Pakistan.
49:10The time of the program is over, don't forget to give your feedback.
49:12Take care, Khuda Hafiz.
49:20For live UN video, visit www.un.org