Talking to Muslims About Christ - Mohammed Hijab & Jonathan Pageau - EP 297 - video Dailymotion

ALLAH IS ONE

Talking to Muslims About Christ - Mohammed Hijab & Jonathan Pageau - EP 297 1:36:06

Transcript

00:00:00Is there an ultimate purpose of life?

00:00:03Yeah, sure. What is it?

00:00:05What we're doing here. Which is what?

00:00:08Hopefully trying to make peace

00:00:11Is that enough?

00:00:12We'll see. Yeah, because it's better than the alternative. What's the alternative? Hell

00:00:21Okay, which we're toying with I don't mean us well us too that's for sure

00:00:25You know things are things are shaky at the moment on many fronts and we have this opportunity in front of us all of us

00:00:33to have a very abundant world right where everyone has enough and maybe more than enough and

00:00:40we're

00:00:41We're shaky about that. We're not sure that that's acceptable and we're not sure everybody should have it

00:00:46we're not sure everybody deserves it and even ourselves and

00:00:50and

00:00:52we're retreating into our corners in some real sense and we're not addressing the elephants under the carpet and

00:00:58You can't do that. Like the things were

00:01:01Discussing contentiously now, you know, they make for rough conversations

00:01:05But they make for a lot rougher streets if you don't talk them out and you have to do that a spirit of ignorance

00:01:22So

00:01:24Our first special guest is dr. Jordan B Peterson

00:01:28he is a clinical psychologist and professor emeritus at the University of Toronto from

00:01:351993 to 1998 he served as an assistant and then associate professor of

00:01:41Psychology at Harvard. He spent 15 years writing maps of meaning the architecture of belief

00:01:48Dr. Peterson has penned the popular global bestsellers beyond order 12 more rules for life and

00:01:5512 rules for life an antidote to chaos in

00:01:592016 before the publication of 12 rules several of dr. Peterson's online lectures videos and interviews went viral

00:02:06Launching him into unprecedented

00:02:09International prominence as a public intellectual and educator with his colleagues. Dr

00:02:14Peterson has pronounced to on has produced two online programs to help people understand themselves better and to improve their psychological and

00:02:22Practical functioning. He's currently working on an online University dubbed Peterson Academy

00:02:28Please welcome. Dr. Peterson

00:02:34We also have with us

00:02:36Jonathan Peugeot, he is an artist and he studies Christian symbolism and he also studies

00:02:43Post-modernism, right? God forbid for some, right?

00:02:46So we also have with us our beloved Mohammed Hijab. He is an author

00:02:52Comparative religionist and philosopher of religion. He's the co-founder of our Institute

00:02:56Sapiens Institute and is a researcher and instructor instructor for the organization. He

00:03:02Has a BA in politics and a master's degree in history

00:03:05And he also acquired a second master's degree in Islamic studies from the School of Oriental and African Studies

00:03:10And he completed a third master's degree in applied theology from the University of Oxford and now he's studying his PhD on

00:03:18the philosophy of religion specifically on the contingency argument for God's

00:03:24Existence in addition Hijab has undergone formal training in Islamic studies with a focus on the Quran

00:03:30prophetic traditions and legal reasoning

00:03:33Hijab has completed Islamic seminary courses and has been given formal permission to relay Islamic knowledge on selected Islamic fields

00:03:40Mohammed Hijab is one of the very few Muslim public figures who deal comparatively with political philosophical and theological issues such as

00:03:48And has amassed a following on with many subscribers on YouTube in English and Arabic

00:03:53So, please welcome Mohammed Hijab and of course Jonathan Peugeot

00:04:02So because I'm 100% disagreeable and and not polite at all I

00:04:08Want to just I want to get the elephant out of the room I

00:04:11do like to to do that and

00:04:14There's been a recent video that you put up a message to the Muslims

00:04:18and

00:04:18Before I say this I do want to speak about the important topics the theological topics and all these kind of post-modernism

00:04:23That that will come but I just wanted to mention this first

00:04:26Because I for me it's just get the elephant out of the room and then we can move on

00:04:30Sometimes it's just replaced by a slightly smaller elephant

00:04:35Well

00:04:36Smaller elephant is better than nothing. Yeah

00:04:38I was gonna say is that you know, it didn't land well with a lot of Muslim community

00:04:42Yeah, and I think the reason why is that it was seen as condescending it was seen as

00:04:48Kind of patronizing that what was your intention of this video exactly?

00:04:52To start a dialogue stupidly and badly

00:04:57Because that's how you have to start

00:04:59You know, we talked already about the idea of tolerance and I'm actually not here

00:05:06to be tolerant

00:05:08you know because tolerance sort of presumes that I know what I'm doing and you guys don't but I'll put up with you anyways and

00:05:15See, I don't actually think I know what I'm doing

00:05:18exactly, and so I think while you might have something to teach me and so it's not so much tolerance as I

00:05:26would say hopefully something approximating an expression of reasonable humility, which is

00:05:32first of all, we

00:05:34we occupy the same space and

00:05:37as far as I'm concerned to be better if we got along and we've all had our own revelations, you know personally and and

00:05:44Let's say socially and we don't know how to integrate those revelations and that's rough. That's hard

00:05:52and

00:05:53so I'm here to listen and

00:05:56the message was

00:05:59preposterous in some sense

00:06:01Although not much more so than the message I made to Christians, which I wouldn't say say was exactly

00:06:08Flattering and you know, I thought it would probably ruffle some feathers but

00:06:16But I thought it might also initiate a dialogue or at least further it and that has happened, you know

00:06:21I mean certainly there were many people who were irritated at me and thought that I was being condescending and I

00:06:27Wasn't trying to be because I I do have a lot of people who are paying attention to my lectures

00:06:33Around the world on the Islamic side, which is quite surprising to me

00:06:36especially with regard to the attention that's been given to the biblical lectures and I don't take any of that for granted and I wasn't

00:06:44trying to either capitalize on it or

00:06:47or

00:06:49Interfere with it. I was trying to do the next stupid thing that might move things forward a bit and that's actually it's actually worked

00:06:56I would say well, first of all, I am here and I know that's not a direct consequence of that message

00:07:01But at least it didn't break it and there have been many other

00:07:05Muslim groups who've reached out to me in a serious way at least in part because of that

00:07:12Yeah, and so I think we have to understand that

00:07:15we're gonna stumble into each other a fair bit if we actually try to talk because of all the elephants and the snakes that are

00:07:22Lurking under the carpet and I think it's a very good thing to get the mountain open

00:07:26Yeah, I I'm a very agreeable person really as it turns out. Yes. I know. It's to my to my detriment, but I

00:07:34Don't know. I wouldn't have guessed to be honest that you're very agreeable. Yes. It's it's one of my major character flaws

00:07:39but I don't like conflict at all and

00:07:43but the reason I I would say I'm prone to engage in it is because

00:07:48sometimes

00:07:50What's under the carpet needs to be revealed because it's going to cause a lot of trouble if it just sits there and bruise

00:07:55Or broods and multiplies and so here's one of the advantages of disagreeable people having them around because they will

00:08:02haul things up for inspection that everyone else might

00:08:06Be loath to confront, you know, the downside is well, you might do that too often, you know

00:08:13And that's a hard thing to get right. So I'm not here in a spirit of tolerance

00:08:18I'm here in a spirit of ignorance and I'm hoping see the other thing

00:08:22I I've been thinking through and yeah guys can

00:08:26Tell me what you think about this is it seems that in the situation we're in now

00:08:31sort of globally speaking that it would be useful for

00:08:37people of

00:08:38religious faith

00:08:40To note that there are other people of religious faith with whom they have much in common

00:08:45One of them being religious faith and that they are also confronting as people of religious faith

00:08:52A world that is attempting to let's say shake itself free of that

00:08:57And so it isn't exactly obvious to me that it's a great time for people of religious faith to concentrate on their differences

00:09:05Given that there are perhaps more important elephants to address

00:09:09Let's say or fish to fry and so I've been trying to I'm very ignorant about the Islamic tradition

00:09:15And I'm trying to rectify that it's very difficult to step outside your own culture and to really understand

00:09:22Someone else's and so and I'm under no illusions

00:09:26I hope about the degree of understanding that I've managed but I have tried to understand what we might share in common and

00:09:34that's crucial and so certainly one of the

00:09:39Ideas that we all share in common on the religious front

00:09:42let's say is that there is an ultimate unity that should be placed above all else and

00:09:48So that's part of the great monotheistic tradition and I'm gonna speak mostly as a psychologist rather than as say an

00:09:56advocate of the Christian tradition

00:09:58because I

00:10:01Let me kind of push back a little bit on that one because you're an individual like obviously in your newest book you're talking about

00:10:08Categorically about precision and I would say you're an individual that is very precise

00:10:11They're categorized like if I was to say anything

00:10:14I would say that you're individual that's scrupulously meticulous in exactitude and I don't know meticulousness or whatever

00:10:20Yeah, so you speak and you think about what you're gonna say before you say it. That's what you're known for

00:10:25in fact, if someone says something which is

00:10:28Kind of off the market a little bit you pull them up for it, right and you know

00:10:31Usually because I don't understand it then

00:10:33You know

00:10:34for example

00:10:34I the Cathy Newman interview like the assumptions and the questioning that she had she had when she was questioning you said you pulled her

00:10:40up on it and that's why it became so

00:10:43Popular the discussion was so popular and you're a clinical psychologist

00:10:47So what I was gonna say is this for example, if I were to make a video, right?

00:10:50I say this message to the you know to white Canadians or something

00:10:53Yeah, yeah, and I said, you know, it's hard to talk to them. I say look, you know

00:10:57Sensitively, why don't you reach out to some Russians, you know, oh, you know heaven forbid, you know

00:11:02Reach out to the black Africans or first nation people, you know, whatever it may be

00:11:07What do you how do you think?

00:11:10The community of why

00:11:11Canadians and say for the sake of argument will react to that kind of message. Well, if it was you

00:11:15Yeah, well, you're pretty disagreeable. So you'd probably get bit back a lot. Yeah, but exactly I don't I don't it's hard to say

00:11:22Until you do it, you know, I mean I have reached out to other communities

00:11:26Let's say I did an interview with a friend of mine. Who's a Native American carver who lives on the west coast and no

00:11:34I'm not very happy with the narrative that's being promoted in Canada

00:11:38which is that the

00:11:40European

00:11:42settlement of Canada is best viewed as

00:11:45Genocidally colonial and

00:11:47Having said that my friend this carver was in a residential school in Canada and the residential schools were put forward

00:11:55by the government

00:11:56in an attempt and other institutions in attempt to

00:12:00Separate the indigenous children from their families and then socialize them rapidly

00:12:06According to European norms and there was some positive

00:12:10motivation for that and sometimes that helped and work but

00:12:14one of the things that did happen was that some schools were let's say invaded by people of a pronounced pedophilic and and

00:12:22Sadistic bent and my friend ended up in one of those schools and his life was so dreadful that you can't even hear about it

00:12:29without

00:12:30without

00:12:32Without serious emotional damage and so I went forward with that discussion and it was very contentious

00:12:38But it went very well and it it told a story that was true and needed to be told

00:12:43Yeah, and so, you know you step into foreign territory at your peril. That's for sure

00:12:48But you know and it was relatively difficult for me to arrange

00:12:53for this to be a possibility and and

00:12:57But my my thought again because I'm trying to look for what we have to offer each other

00:13:03Rather than what divides us. I thought it was worthwhile

00:13:07In an economy as volatile as this one. It's important to have control when you're making a big purchase like a new car

00:13:13That's where cars in comes into play

00:13:15Carsing is completely changing the way you buy a car online an online car shopping website with millions of listed vehicles

00:13:21Carsing works with over 25,000 dealers nationwide to help you find your dream car by partnering with credit agencies lenders and dealerships

00:13:29Carsing provides you with everything you need before stepping foot into a dealership

00:13:33Their mission is to make auto financing quick and easy while providing a modern hassle-free way of shopping for cars

00:13:38their innovative technology and financial tools provide consumers with the ability to instantly pre qualify online without affecting your credit score plus you

00:13:46can search for vehicles with instant financing details including down payment monthly payment term and

00:13:52APR once you find your dream car at your ideal budget

00:13:55All you have to do is bring your safe deal voucher with you to the dealership to finalize your next ride

00:14:00Carsing offers transparency to the max, you know

00:14:03You're purchasing options before you set foot into the dealership, which makes the whole process so much more convenient

00:14:09Visit carsing.com slash Jordan today to skip the guesswork and find the best deals near you. That's carsing.com

00:14:16slash Jordan

00:14:20Let me push back again once again on this point

00:14:22So for example, it's not always what you say. Sometimes it can be what you don't say. So for instance, I

00:14:28Think you've become somewhat of an emblem of Western civilization right in terms of you're an intelligent help us

00:14:34Know what you have and I also push back on a point that this is a foreign culture because I think that it's like

00:14:38You've mentioned this in lecture as well that Islam has now become part like, you know Western culture

00:14:43Yeah, well, that's the open question as we noted in the introductory marks. It's like well art is Islam part of the West

00:14:50We're kind of having the same discussion about Russia in some real sense. And yeah, that's really going well at the moment

00:14:55yeah, so there's that part but what I would say is that you know, if

00:15:00There is a bloody history of Western colonialism and that's almost undeniable. Like for example, look at Algeria for instance Algeria when it was annexed by France

00:15:10There's no dispute, there's no dispute in what happened there

00:15:12So the issue like I'm giving you one example of many the Spanish colonialism of Latin America, for example

00:15:19There are things that happened and it's not saying that's not things that happened on only just on the Western Front. Yeah

00:15:25There are things that happen on the Muslim front as well. Of course, it's true. Yeah, no doubt about it, right?

00:15:30No, I'm not gonna stand here and you know defend them wahidun who came and were very intolerant to

00:15:35Jews and Christians and kick them out of their homes and so on like that who existed in Spain as well

00:15:39In fact, so the point is I feel like I don't know as a psychologist

00:15:43I think my question would be to you that don't you think

00:15:45It is there of any benefit to be concessionary in this regard like to start off a discussion by saying like we know

00:15:52That these are things that could cause resentment

00:15:54Yes, because like for example, I know a lot of Algerian people and this is very clear in their historical memory

00:16:00Yes, and the the accusation will be that the West have colonial amnesia here

00:16:06They don't they are not taking into account what they've done. I'll be honest. Yeah, they don't don't even know how well, okay

00:16:13Yeah, well, absolutely. I mean look here. Here's how I would address that psychologically

00:16:19In in many of the

00:16:22mythological stories that I've read there is the motif of the evil uncle and

00:16:28So for example in in the ancient Egyptian cosmology

00:16:32That there were two there were four deities for central deities

00:16:36Although a host of associated deities and one of them was Osiris who was the deity of the state

00:16:41That might be a good way of thinking about it

00:16:43and he had an evil brother Seth who was always conspiring in the background to overthrow the state and to

00:16:50Establish his own rule say based on power and the Egyptians

00:16:54this is thousands of years ago had figured out by that point because their society was quite large that

00:17:00There is something in the social structure itself that posed a threat to the structure and that was the tendency

00:17:05For the structure and its leaders to become willfully blind and for conspiratorial

00:17:12Powers or patterns that would use resentment and the desire for power to overthrow that and they thought of Osiris is willfully blind and

00:17:20Seth as an eternal danger and that's true

00:17:22And and then but there's a there's another element to the evil uncle too

00:17:26Which is that in some real sense and it's a very difficult thing to sort through morally

00:17:32all of us walk on blood-soaked ground because human history is in

00:17:38some regards a nightmarish catastrophe and some of that's just because life was so difficult, but it's also because people did in

00:17:46unbelievably cruel and malicious and

00:17:49Deceptive

00:17:51Committed committed unbelievably cruel and atrocious and deceptive acts and so we're all stuck with this problem that

00:17:58Here we are in relative peace and harmony so far. Although we seem to be doing everything

00:18:04we can to try to disrupt that at the moment and

00:18:07part of the price that's being paid for that is an endless litany of

00:18:12Historical catastrophe and then we all have to face up to what does that mean for us in terms of our individual?

00:18:19Responsibility and how do we construe ourselves in our society in light of that fact?

00:18:24And we could go back and forth continually about whose historical atrocities were worse

00:18:29And that's a rough contest because you know

00:18:33The devil is definitely in the details there and then it also brings up the other problem, which is well

00:18:38When the Spaniards went to Central America a lot of the bloodshed they produced

00:18:44The death they produced was actually a consequence of the introduction of disease because that took out about 95%

00:18:50Of the native population in the Western Hemisphere and then the conquistadors were well

00:18:57Maybe they weren't the finest representatives of the of the highest flowering of Western civilization

00:19:03We don't know what to what degree they were the sort of thugs that couldn't get along at home

00:19:07And went out adventuring and and then and and even if I say attempted to take full responsibility for that

00:19:14I'm not sure what it would mean because I suspect I have a lot more in common with you people in the modern world

00:19:20Than I do with Spanish conquistadors from 300 years ago. Now. I'm not saying I bear no

00:19:27Responsibility for the bloodshed of the past but I would say we all bear that

00:19:32Responsibility and that's something I would say that's something like the conception of original sin. Yeah, that's the point of difference

00:19:38To be honest, I would disagree that point like as a Muslim

00:19:41There is a verse in the Quran that says that one soul should not bear the responsibility of someone else's actions

00:19:48Yeah, well that that's the other ethical complication. It's like, can you call me out in relationship to the atrocity of the past?

00:19:57But it's complicated right because yeah, but because at the same time you do say

00:20:03But you know

00:20:04We can say things like while the West is not bearing sufficient responsibility for its colonial past

00:20:09And so at some level that kind of devolves down to the individual

00:20:13So let me let me kind of rephrase it and I think you know, I think that's more of a left-wing criticism

00:20:18It's like, you know, it's reparations and affirmative action programs. Yeah, I'm not advocating any of that

00:20:23I know I even believe in that to be honest with you nor me

00:20:25Yeah

00:20:26so what what I was putting as an alternative to that is this is that there is this kind of I would call this

00:20:31maybe an orientalist a new orientalist narrative which states that

00:20:34Islam is incapable of XYZ call it tolerance call it whatever it is and look at what's happened in Islamic history

00:20:40You've got all of these deaths and you've got all of these kinds of things are happening

00:20:44Comparative to what we have in the West and what we're saying is that let's look at what you have in the West because liberalism

00:20:49Was an ideology that was started in the 17th century like I mean really it was crystallized

00:20:52You know with John Locke and all these kind of things then and after liberalism was established

00:20:57And in fact the Constitution and the documents of founding fathers and stuff like that were based on the liberal secular principles

00:21:04Even after that you had Napoleonic Wars even after that you had called colonialism continue you had slavery continue until

00:21:101867 whatever was the you know, the American Civil War ended

00:21:13So what we're saying is that this picture of history that you know, the West is best basically this idea because our ideology can fix all problems

00:21:21It's not reasonable when you look at the historical records

00:21:24I mean one of them one scholar called Naveed Sheikh actually done a piece

00:21:29It's called body count and he was counting the amount of people that died in each

00:21:34civilization and he put the Western civilization is the highest and because you have things like World War one and World War two and these

00:21:40Things were World War one World War two and nationalistic conquests

00:21:43They were not religiously inspired when you can know you can argue to what extent we're all the one was who religiously inspired

00:21:48But certainly Islam didn't was not a main feature of the 30 million people that died in World War one

00:21:54However, many many people died in World War two. So the point is is that we're saying is that

00:21:58Obviously you've got concepts in the West like manifest destiny and which I think every single president of the United States of America believed

00:22:04in Westward expansion these kind of thing

00:22:06The point is is that it's a proposition that the ideology of the West can fix our problems

00:22:12This is what we have an issue with because what we're saying is that if we look at the historical record

00:22:17There is no evidence of that. In fact, what has shown us is that there's more bloodshed

00:22:21Individualism has caused more death

00:22:23Like, you know with all due respect. I know that you you do cherish individualists. I'm not saying everything is bad about it

00:22:28but there's when when when you have a society the plea of a

00:22:32communitarian ethic is bereft of a communitarian ethic, then you can have these issues and

00:22:38So these are conversations and I think you are moving towards a communitarianism

00:22:42Your newest book you were talking about institutions and these kind of things and the respectful tradition and these kind of things

00:22:47I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly, but

00:22:49These are the kinds of conversations. I think we need to have

00:22:52but on that point, I think I

00:22:55Don't want this to be interrogative and I just want to introduce one thing because I think it's important

00:23:00I think Jordan you're very you're very kind and

00:23:03And I understand I also watch the message to Muslims and I thought there were some problems with it. Definitely

00:23:09Okay, but when you said there's an elephant in the room that I want to address my mind immediately went to videos us

00:23:15I've seen a view okay with with some of your friends in the street and

00:23:20Suggesting violence and suggesting aggressive actions against other communities, which in the West is something that

00:23:28Let's say in Canada people don't do that and that even though there might be civil conflicts

00:23:33We have a state have police we have an apparatus

00:23:36Yeah, which is there to do which is not completely perfect, but which which is functions to install the rules

00:23:43So when I see someone in the street, we're surrounded by men wearing masks

00:23:47Yes, who are talking about if these other groups come out, you know

00:23:52They're gonna see us and we're gonna be there and I'm looking for Jews and we're talking about blood and there's this very these

00:23:58Very strange behaviors that yeah

00:24:00We're looking for Jews. Do you remember that when I said that exact thing? I just remember you talking to police about

00:24:06About Jewish people. Yeah, I'd like to get an exact quote. Okay, so I don't remember

00:24:10I recall the other one the one that I definitely saw that that you spoke for quite a while

00:24:15Was was relating to some issues with Hindu. So what happened recently? I don't want to

00:24:22Just the reason why it's important is that is that is that I have met I'm a Christian very much a Christian

00:24:29I have many problems with modern Western culture. Yeah, right

00:24:33And but we are in the West. Okay, right and you are in the West

00:24:37Yeah, and I am a Western right and you live in the West and so and I'm British. Yes, just like you're Canadian

00:24:43Exactly. Yes, and so the

00:24:46Elephant in the room is part. That's part of the elephant in the room. There are many people who told Jordan

00:24:51Yeah, not to come here. Yeah because of those videos. Okay. Well, there's a lot of people that told me not to have this concession

00:24:57And that's why me people don't want to have difficult

00:25:01But what I'm saying with Jordan is that that what makes him gallant and brave is that despite of those voices that are the voices

00:25:07Of disunity because he's been canceled more times than I have here

00:25:11Despite the fact that he's been canceled in Cambridge University, whatever. I don't care about all these institutions with all due respect

00:25:17I know this man is a person of influence and in my estimation

00:25:21I see him as one of the most if not the most influential Western public voice

00:25:26All right

00:25:26So for that reason I speak to him and for that reason I don't apologize to anyone

00:25:31For doing so and I think in a way he sees the same thing in me and maybe not to the same level

00:25:35But the fact that I'm half his age

00:25:38He knows what's gonna come in 30 years time

00:25:40So he's playing the cards, right?

00:25:42and I think at the end of the day my voice my emotions what I'm saying in the streets of London or Leicester or

00:25:47Whatever else is how a lot of Muslim people feel but don't forget

00:25:51Yes, I'm disagreeable and I'm not that's it. My temperament is not the temperament of the average Muslim

00:25:55So you've got a differentiate between me as an individual me Muhammad hijab as an individual and Islam

00:26:02You see if you say Muhammad hijab, you are a hypocrite. You are a bad guy. You are violent

00:26:07So, you know what? That's something I have to look into

00:26:10You know, I mean if that's your advice to me, that's something I would also say there's no moral

00:26:15Advantage in being a pushover either. Yes. I mean, so these things are very hard to calibrate correctly

00:26:21yeah, and so well and if we come at this in a spirit of mutual ignorance and with some degree of

00:26:29Maybe this is where tolerance is more of an issue

00:26:31You know

00:26:32We're gonna have to tolerate each other's rough edges and imperfections in order to talk

00:26:36even if we think that there's something useful to be gleaned and you know

00:26:40my sense is that

00:26:41Well, we're called upon to separate the wheat from the chaff and that's not so much to damn the chaff as it is to gather

00:26:48The wheat and it seems to be in in the biblical stories in the Old Testament. There's an immense

00:26:54Emphasis strange emphasis in some real sense. It's one of the things that makes the text so remarkable on the

00:27:01Moral

00:27:02Stranger and foreigner and so when the society is unstable and shaking in a variety of ways. It's often

00:27:09The moral foreigner who comes in with something wise to say and I think that's definitely true of those

00:27:16Biblical narratives and it's very interesting that they point them out, but I think it's also true practically

00:27:20It's like it's not as if any of us like we want to have faith in our faith and we need that because it keeps us

00:27:27together individually and it unites us socially, but then if we insist that

00:27:34My if I insist that my faith which is more like my pride in my own belief is

00:27:41100% correct. Then I've I've confused myself with my faith

00:27:46I've confused myself with Christianity or perhaps you've confused yourself with Islam and that's a big mistake because so let me ask you

00:27:54both a question then since

00:27:56We can talk about the way one clarification with all the question. I've never asked for violence and that's that's an accusation

00:28:01I think that needs to be

00:28:03You need to look back at because I've never said let's go and do violence

00:28:06I said that if if such and such group come out again, which were a group of armed people

00:28:11Then we'll be there to defend the community

00:28:12I don't I've never said in my whole life and I'll challenge anybody to find anything that's

00:28:17Opposite from what I've just said now, that's one thing

00:28:20Second thing I'll say is this is that and if it was a violence issue if I did say that what's happening with the Metropolitan

00:28:26Police, why am I not behind bars?

00:28:27Why have there was not been a single investigation is 210,000 people have watched the video unless the police have put that

00:28:34You know fingers in their ears or that they are you want to accuse the police of you know negligence or incompetence?

00:28:40That's a different story. Let's go to the second point because you're saying now about this basically dogmatism

00:28:46Let's just call it for what it is. Like, you know, it's pride in dogmatism, right?

00:28:50And that's something we all have to watch because it's a hard line to walk because you want to be an advocate for your faith

00:28:55But what in the world do you know, right? You're ignorant beyond comprehension. That's a question. I'm both of you

00:29:01This is a question to both of you. Is there an ultimate purpose of life?

00:29:06Yeah, sure. What is it?

00:29:08What we're doing here, which is what?

00:29:11Hopefully trying to make peace

00:29:13Is that enough?

00:29:15We'll see. Yeah, because it's better than the alternative. What's the alternative hell?

00:29:21Okay, which we're toying with I don't mean us well us too that's for sure

00:29:26But you know things are things are shaky at the moment on many fronts and we have this opportunity in front of us all

00:29:33of us to have a very abundant world right where everyone has enough and maybe more than enough and

00:29:41We're we're shaky about that. We're not sure that that's acceptable and we're not sure everybody should have it

00:29:47And we're retreating into our corners in some real sense and we're not addressing the elephants under the carpet and you can't do that

00:29:55Like the things we're discussing contentiously now, you know, they make for rough conversations

00:30:01But they make for a lot rougher streets if you don't talk them out and you have to do that a spirit of ignorance

00:30:07You know, like I was hoping to come here today and well, honestly, I was hoping to come here today

00:30:11And I was hoping to come here and I was hoping to come here and I was hoping to come here and I was hoping to

00:30:17Well, listen, I talk a lot. There's my flaw, you know, but I

00:30:23Don't know

00:30:24How to feel the right way forward. I think part of it is well, first of all to find commonalities

00:30:31We believe in in the fundamental necessity of a uniting book

00:30:36Across the Jewish Christian and Muslim faiths. That's not nothing

00:30:41That's a strange thing to insist upon and yet we all seem to agree

00:30:45we believe in a higher and purposeful unity the necessity of that and then also in the necessity of

00:30:52Putting that above all else and we also agree that we're not very good at that

00:30:58But that's the hardest one to get is that even if you do

00:31:02Claim in some sense to worship

00:31:05the highest

00:31:06In this monotheistic sense that doesn't mean you're very good at it and that's a hard pill to swallow

00:31:13especially when you're trying to also be a

00:31:16Courageous knight of your faith. Let's say it's hard to be

00:31:21Properly humble in the face of the divine, but that might be in some sense the proper command

00:31:27I mean the fact that Islam means submission is a reflection of that in some sense, right?

00:31:32Just remember who's God here and who isn't and so and that's a very hard thing to keep in mind

00:31:37So when I listen to you you disagreeable character, I'm trying to separate out the wheat from the chaff, you know

00:31:43Yeah, because there's no doubt. I have many things to learn as I learned to some degree

00:31:49I appreciate this part of like, you know, I learned from from your humility

00:31:53Honestly the way that you come across and once again, I do appreciate both of you coming here, you know

00:31:57And I appreciate disagreeability as well. Like what you've said there's good. I deserve the accountability just like he does

00:32:02I don't want to be a person who you know, who doesn't can't dish it out who dishes out what can't get get it himself

00:32:07I deserve it. What I wanted to say is this to both of you. I want to do a full experiment

00:32:12Yeah, and so imagine you're going to sleep. I don't know where you guys are staying now

00:32:15I'll tell you're staying you're watching my videos

00:32:18You know me with the masks and stuff like that before you go to sleep subscribe on the channel, whatever you do. Yeah, and

00:32:22now you're

00:32:24After you've you know, put the dislike and then your negative comments, which I deleted already and put it in the trash

00:32:30Which is what you do is all the tweets and you know, we can talk about that later

00:32:33But after that's all happened and you've gone to sleep you both forgot to sleep now, right?

00:32:37You wake up and you find yourselves on a ship

00:32:40On a ship. Yeah

00:32:42And people are eating food people are drinking people are just in that so it's happening

00:32:48Now, what would be the first questions that you would ask to people around you?

00:32:52Would you ask things like how did I get here? Where are we going?

00:32:55Is that are these those seem like the first yeah, those are good questions to ask in general. Where are we go?

00:33:01How did we get here? And this is where are we going beautiful?

00:33:04That's what I wanted to actually get to because this is what Heidegger, you know, Martin Heidegger

00:33:07He's a controversial figure in his old right? Okay, but he described us as the thrownness of life

00:33:12Yeah, because we're chucked into life. We're thrown into life, right? So the facts now that we're in this world

00:33:19These questions that we would be asking if we were on a ship and we're just chucked on a ship

00:33:24Are the same very questions like you said, you know that we would be asking if we're in this world in this world

00:33:29Where did we come from? Where are we going? I think if we can't get these two questions, right?

00:33:35Nihilism will persist

00:33:37You're a nihilistic expert. You've spoken a lot about nihilism. I think if we can't get those to counter nihilistic expert

00:33:44I'm not a nihilist. If you want to ask what I think my purpose is, the purpose is to be united with God

00:33:50Okay, beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. Okay. So from the Islamic perspective, it's this, right?

00:33:55First of all, ask these three questions. Where did I come from? Where am I going? What am I doing here?

00:34:00What is the purpose of life?

00:34:02And the answer is we came from a

00:34:06Creator, okay

00:34:07So we can approach this in whatever argument you like. I'm doing a PhD in contingency argument

00:34:12You can do anything you want. You can do it for example through the the fact that the universe is regular and stable and uniform and

00:34:18Possesses life. What's the best explanation for that? Is it knowledge or not knowledge?

00:34:21So we say it's knowledge, right? Or as we say it's a creative capacity of some sort. We came from this creative capacity

00:34:27We came from this knowledge force, right? So that's the first thing we say. We came from this force, this higher power

00:34:32Where are we going? We're going back to the higher power, right?

00:34:35And we're going back to the higher power with our deeds which we have to be responsible for which is exactly

00:34:41It's a hallmark of what you stand for and that's I believe genuinely that's why you're asking why are so many people listening to you

00:34:47Because we reject original sin. What would you respect? Original sin says that one man

00:34:52Yeah, gave us gave us a sin. The other man took it away

00:34:56basically, I mean

00:34:57We're fallen creatures and then Jesus you got to believe in the soul of Fideh. You believe in whatever you you know

00:35:02I'm Orthodox. So I don't believe that. Oh fair enough. Okay, I don't believe in original sin the way you described it

00:35:07Fine no, no, it's an Orthodox. Yeah. Yeah. Okay fine. But the issue is that this I didn't say I believed in it either

00:35:15I just said that the the concept of original sin is an expression of this problem that we're describing

00:35:22Which is that we're all burdened with something

00:35:25Approximating while the thrownness and this ambivalent relationship we have with the atrocity of history

00:35:31And but and that's we're saying because if you study the atrocity of history with any degree of seriousness

00:35:37You have to take account of the fact that people like you did it and you might think well, I wouldn't do it

00:35:43It's like yeah, I get you. I wouldn't be so sure about that for sure

00:35:47I mean, you know you were talking about the kind of

00:35:50You were talking about the suffering and what obviously one of the major sufferings. It's a Holocaust

00:35:55I was reading the book meaningful life Victor Frank

00:35:58Where he then produced logotherapy and all those kind of things and it goes back to what Nietzsche said, you know

00:36:03If you have a why almost any how it's possible, you know bearable

00:36:07Yeah, if you have a why almost any how it's possible, so it goes back to everything goes back to purpose logotherapy

00:36:12Yeah, just if you have a purpose then everything is possible

00:36:16That's why I think that you can do the best as a human species

00:36:19Yeah in the human condition if your purpose is transcendental

00:36:23It's higher than the physical the material and for us the purpose is mentioned chapter 51 verse 19 of the Quran which is

00:36:29When I collect all general insulin in the abdomen, we have not created human beings and jinn except for that

00:36:33They may worship me. What is worship is the epitome the higher point of submission is the epitome of love as well

00:36:42Jonathan has an interesting take on that too that has to do with celebration, which I think is

00:36:48Psychologically appropriate do you wanna I don't want to put you on the spot?

00:36:51But but it's it's an addition. It's something I've been struggling to understand more

00:36:56I've attended some Orthodox ceremonies with Jonathan and also on my own and and he's he's very

00:37:03Perspicacious when it comes to describing the role of both worship and ritual and so there's an element

00:37:09Anyways, I'll let you continue with that. No, I agree

00:37:12I agree that worship is also the manner in which we bind together

00:37:16Right and so without something we celebrate together than we and we don't and so we have different levels of what we celebrate, you know

00:37:22We can celebrate

00:37:24In our families the things that bind us but ultimately that has to reach the all the way up into something which is beyond

00:37:30I think that's actually very powerful

00:37:31You know

00:37:32And in fact the first very first lines of the Quran said a humble layer of blood me

00:37:36Which is all praise and thanks belong to God Lord of the world's all praise in all

00:37:41Thanks, and this is a kind of celebration. This is a kind of praise

00:37:44You know, we we we agree that praising God at the highest level celebrating God. I mean the word hallelujah

00:37:51Well, I would say in some sense if we're doing that

00:37:54Well, there was some comments at the beginning about the importance of music

00:37:58yeah, and you open this event with music and I've been beginning to open my events with music and

00:38:04part of the reason that that's very much worthwhile and has to do with this drumbeat that underlies everything is that music is a

00:38:12Manifestation of something like the joyful spirit of harmonious play and it's not

00:38:18Semantic right it grips you and it sets the tone. I've heard you say something before about this

00:38:22You said that music was impervious to reputation. It's impervious to rush the meaning of music is impervious to rational

00:38:30Yeah, I think that was a very powerful way something

00:38:32Yeah, it's something to know, you know

00:38:34And so with with with musical manner in which the Quran is presented a major part of that

00:38:41Yes is the music and the music speaks

00:38:44We know the music music speaks of layers of patterned harmony and you talked about

00:38:50The individualism of the West. Yeah, and I think that

00:38:53That there's a there's a there's a flaw in that

00:38:59Particularized conception that needs to be addressed by something that's more

00:39:04approximated than communitarian ethos and I think you can understand that relationship to music because

00:39:09Look to some degree

00:39:11The three of us can sit on stage and everyone in the audience. We can be comfortable at the moment psychologically

00:39:16Yes, so we're not too anxious and we're kind of engaged because there's a certain degree of playful harmony that we've established

00:39:29Right, but we're able to integrate that and so that means we can remain calm

00:39:33And so one of the things that indicates is that part of our ability to remain calm and focused

00:39:37Yes is dependent on social integration. So you have to ask yourself

00:39:42Well, could you be saying if your marriage was insane?

00:39:46Could you be saying if your children with if your relationship with your children was too fractious?

00:39:51Could you be saying if you had no friends if you didn't integrate yourself into the community and maybe the state and then maybe a higher

00:39:58Vision and as far as I can tell the answer to that is no you can't be saying by yourself

00:40:04It's not merely a matter of psychological integration. It's not merely a matter of of

00:40:09Of the isolated individual and of course, we understand that in the West although perhaps not as well as we should formally

00:40:16Because we'll punish criminals for example by putting them in in in solitary confinement

00:40:22and that's another indication of the impossibility of maybe if you were an

00:40:27expert meditator and a religious man, you could tolerate the solitude, but you probably wouldn't be a criminal then so

00:40:34My point is is that I I view this process of integration as a multi-layered process that involves the integration of the

00:40:41community all the way up to the highest place and yes and that highest place has to be a unity as Jonathan pointed out or

00:40:47or we're divided and so we might want to seek

00:40:52amongst us as much as we can for a

00:40:55Common unity at least start with that and so and that's what we're trying to do in this conversation

00:41:00Yes, but unity is different to uniformity. So yeah, I see the difference being is that you know in the in the Islamic

00:41:07Discussion or discourse? It's like there is this there's a verse in the Quran

00:41:10In fact, this is like I'm dealing with a lady and you have your religion that we have ours

00:41:13There is we can demarcate and still tolerate. That's the point and I think appreciate even yeah even appreciate that would be good

00:41:19We even love each other

00:41:23That's the thing going back to the message of Muslims, I think this is where cast a question

00:41:27I've been to a Muslim country. Well, yes, which ones I've been to I've been to Morocco and I've been to Turkey and

00:41:36Now have I been to any other Muslim countries not yet. Okay, there's many on the

00:41:42Itinerary go to go to a Muslim country with a Christian population. I'm from I'm originally from Egypt. Yeah, we've we've we've had Coptic Christians

00:41:49They're for years. Yeah, we've had them for a thousand four hundred years

00:41:52I mean they were there before the Muslims came right and

00:41:54The point is is that if you go to Ghana go to Nigeria this bleak image of

00:41:59Muslims and Christians kind of fighting each other. I don't think that's what's really going on

00:42:03I'm not saying that there's no grievance there when the Christian communities in Muslim majority lands

00:42:07That would be a lie and that would be false and that can easily be

00:42:10Refuted why I'm saying is that it's not as bad as you think if you go to these countries you will not find I do

00:42:15Not think you will find what's going on

00:42:17For example, you're talking about Hindutva in India with the Muslim minorities in a Hindu supposedly, you know majority

00:42:23Which is a peaceful religion. What's what's going on?

00:42:25That was what's going on China with with the Muslim minority there or for example, may I may I'd like sorry

00:42:29So you say but what's happening in Palestine as well? So I don't I don't want to paint any

00:42:34large-scale

00:42:36endeavor with the brush that's

00:42:40Let's say dipped in the blood of its worst excesses. I don't think that's helpful because then we're all

00:42:46Irredeemable in some real sense. I think it's much wiser for us to

00:42:51see what we

00:42:53See what we can jointly celebrate and see if we can manage that in something like a spirit of of ignorance and hope

00:43:01You know because one of the things I learned a long time ago

00:43:03It was very helpful for me as a clinician was that if everything wasn't perfect around me all the time

00:43:09it was probably at least in part because I was much less than I could conceivably be and one of the things I learned from

00:43:16Carl Jung who's a great thinker was that what you need most will be found where you least want to look and

00:43:23Yes

00:43:24well

00:43:24and it's almost by definition right because you can imagine that you're most likely to be most ignorant about

00:43:29What you're most afraid of and most contemptuous of and so by definition

00:43:34That's the last place you want to look and if you're an advocate of a given religious faith

00:43:38One of the last places you might want to look is in the wisdom of an alternative faith

00:43:43But you know, that's what are you to be such a

00:43:48Such a committed advocate of a faith

00:43:50That's so complex that there's no way that someone like you can understand it and I mean that of your own faith

00:43:56And so it's not so ever it's not so obvious that the stranger you think is the devil

00:44:01Yes doesn't have something to say I guess you but you know

00:44:04I once heard you quote Carl Jung because obviously you quote you mentioned him a lot in your books and I learned a lot from

00:44:09You about Carl Jung. Yeah that he stated that you know

00:44:13the West

00:44:14Are technological giants but moral?

00:44:17Dwarfs in comparison. Yeah. Yeah, so and that's the problem all over the world increasingly

00:44:22Yeah, we're technological Giants. I agree moral midget to some extent. But what I was gonna say here is that

00:44:28going back to Carl Jung here because

00:44:30For example and going back to the issue of purpose. Yeah, if we're speaking about purpose. I

00:44:37Watched your discussion of Sam Harris and you were speaking about your class one

00:44:41No, there was one that you've done. I don't know what it wasn't that famous

00:44:44you weren't speaking to him like this, but there was a there was one point of it, which really was like

00:44:49It gave me an insight into your I don't be a psychologist here, right?

00:44:54Maybe I dare say it gave me an insight into your psychological state because you Sam Harris. He said to you he said

00:45:02Your conception of pragmatism. Yeah, that truth is malleable or whatever. It's not there's not one capital T truth like well

00:45:10There's no I said more that I don't believe that the most fundamental truth is objective

00:45:15Yeah in the scientific sense, and I don't think it can be

00:45:20In that sense the your perspective and you know, this is well is more epistemologically pragmatist rather than correspondence theory, right?

00:45:27So correspondences is that one one truth out there? I think correspondence theories have to be nested under

00:45:33Pragmatic theories in some real you're saying the same thing as the American pragmatist said. Yes

00:45:38Yes, very much I was gonna say with that he said if you believe in this

00:45:42Yeah, it will be at your peril and you know what you said you responded you retorted

00:45:45You said it has been in my peril. You said it has not let me this

00:45:49Let's focus on this because this is actually deep. You said it has been at my peril

00:45:54Why would everything's that? No, no, no, no, but think about this for a second because I heard your voice and I heard these words

00:46:00Stuck in my mind. Yeah, you said it has been at my peril now. Let me let me submit something to you today

00:46:07Could it be that it's at your peril because if you don't believe it in

00:46:11truth with a capital T in the correspondence theory sense that there is a

00:46:15God and that's a true statement just like two plus equals four is a true statement

00:46:18Just like just like the geocentric model the heliocentric model is a true statement in that sense

00:46:22There is a God out there and he created the world. He created you he's sustaining the universe

00:46:27He is maintaining the universe. There is a true statement and that is in a correspondence theory sense

00:46:31If you don't have that level of certainty

00:46:35Then you end up being in existential angst and and and you end up being depressed because that's what the Quran says

00:46:42The Quran states woman. I read on victory. So in the level my ishat and Anka

00:46:48Whoever trans whoever swerves away from my remembrance will have a depressed life

00:46:54so for I think that well, I think almost by definition when you

00:46:58Veer from a path oriented towards the highest unity that you fall apart

00:47:04It's by definition, you know, I don't know

00:47:08What that means specifically with regards to a correspondence theory because the correspondence theorists tend to be more

00:47:17Oriented towards a materialist viewpoint and that doesn't seem to me to work out very well when discussing something like God

00:47:23Do I think that we strive towards a higher unity that that unity is real and that it's necessary

00:47:30No, but there's no yes, there's no contradiction and having correspondence theory in dualism or idealism. It doesn't have to be materialism because

00:47:37That would indicate the truth the truth sort of empiricism

00:47:41I would say then my answer to that is that I try to act as if that's true

00:47:47Mm-hmm, and I think I say I act as if it's true because I don't I'm not in a position to make any

00:47:55Final judgments in some real sense, but I am in a position to stake my life on certain

00:48:02faith based

00:48:03Propositions, that's what you can do. That doesn't mean you're right

00:48:07But that's what you have at your disposal. And so I am trying to do that to feel the proper way forward

00:48:14In this spirit of let's say playful unity. Yes, and to put that above all else

00:48:19Which is partly why I also said that I did it at my peril

00:48:22The thing is what I would say is that if you take the proposition that truth is utility

00:48:26Yeah, and what is useful is that which is true?

00:48:28That's basically the American pragmatist stance if you take that if well, it's not exactly not exactly

00:48:35Well there see I think that's what Charles Pierce said almost by word. I know I know I know

00:48:41The pragmatists are more like engineers, which is well

00:48:44You can't build a perfect bridge because what do you know? You can't build anything perfect

00:48:49But you can build a bridge that's a bridge in so far as it will stand up and allow you to walk across it for

00:48:55400 years. Mm-hmm. And so and then then the notion there is well, it's not perfect

00:49:01It doesn't correspond precisely to the ultimate nature of reality

00:49:05Let's say but it's good enough to move you from point A to point B. And so yes

00:49:10But the going back to Viktor Frankl and the idea of meaning. Yeah, what I'm saying is I know you're a psychoanalyst analyst

00:49:18This from the Quranic paradigm, this will not be enough meaning based on your current paradigm

00:49:25According to the Islamic diagnosis, you will be depressed. Why because your purpose is not strong enough. Do you see the point?

00:49:31Yes. Well, that's probably true. I know that sounds a bit intrusive. So I do apologize for that, but I don't think it is intrusive

00:49:39From that from that orientation towards unity then yes

00:49:43I know this from a psychological perspective if you deviate from

00:49:48Orientation toward the highest unity which you might think about as the highest goal

00:49:52Yes, two things happen. One is you're you experience less positive emotion

00:49:57so joy and enthusiasm and engagement because positive emotion is

00:50:02Experienced in relation to a goal not as a consequence of achieving it

00:50:06Yes

00:50:06So if you're pursuing the highest goal

00:50:08then you're celebrating most intently and then if the goal you're pursuing isn't unified then it's

00:50:15Multiplicitous and then you're confused and anxious and unstable and depressed. So I would say that by definition what I was reading

00:50:22Recently, I've read all your books and I even read some of your peer-reviewed work because when I was going to speak to you

00:50:28Then I said, you know, I'm gonna do my homework. Yeah, so I read everything

00:50:31One of the things that you said one time in the maps of meaning

00:50:36He started off the book by saying when you were a young lad, I don't know how young you were you said that

00:50:43You found the doctrines of Christianity

00:50:47Incomprehensible and absurd

00:50:48Yeah

00:50:48and you also said that you found you had some kind of issue with Christianity because of the Genesis narrative and how

00:50:56incongruent it was with

00:50:58Scientific narratives you went to a pastor you said or church cleric or something and then you left the church now

00:51:03I've got a question. Do you still have the same position or have you changed your position?

00:51:07Well, I've changed my position a lot. I was only 13 then, you know, I was I was caught up in in

00:51:14The battle, you know to in so far it was manifested in me when I was 13

00:51:20I was caught in the battle between

00:51:22Enlightenment rationality and traditional narrative belief. I had no idea how to reconcile those two things. You feel like you can do that now

00:51:29I'm doing my best to reconcile. Yes, and I think yeah

00:51:33Well, I certainly can do it a lot more than I did when I was 13

00:51:36Let me give you an example, right this this point when you were 13, I think he was thinking straight

00:51:40I'll be sorry to be very strict

00:51:43It's hard to believe someone is disagreeable with you as you

00:51:47Because someone with an IQ of 180 or whatever you have yet someone of your intelligence when you were when you were 13

00:51:52You probably had an IQ of I don't know 120 or something

00:51:55You were operating like my friend over here Ali Dawa says it's on his level where the age of 13

00:52:01But what I was gonna say was that you know

00:52:03The reason why I think he was it because look at the Trinity for example

00:52:06Look at the schisms and this goes your specialism that the idea of three all-powerful entities that Jesus

00:52:13Is all-powerful that the father's all power. The Sun's all-powerful. The Holy Spirit is all-powerful, but there's not all one

00:52:18There's not three or powerful. There's one all-powerful

00:52:21You have one ultimately willing being which your person which is Jesus and another person which is ultimately willing which is the Sun the

00:52:28Quran says about this is met. Ta'ala. Lohman. Well, I didn't know I can I'm out of me

00:52:32You know, if I let that have a cool. Oh, yeah

00:52:34I'm gonna call a car. Well, I'll about them all about in chapter 23 verse number one. It's 91

00:52:38It says that Allah has not taken any son and he doesn't he did not have any creator with him

00:52:44Had that been the case

00:52:45They would have stripped one another for what they've they would have competed and tried to outstrip one another for power

00:52:51meaning this idea of three all-powerful persons is

00:52:57Unintelligible to say the least the idea that Jesus Christ

00:53:00Exhibits two natures for I know that there are schisms and there's difference of opinion among Christians

00:53:05But the fact that you have this human nature

00:53:09Where Jesus is walking and he sees the tree and he can't eat from the tree

00:53:13He doesn't know that the tree is in season or not, although he doesn't know when the hour is or whatever it may be

00:53:19The Quran says it very clearly. Can I yet cool any time him and his mom used to eat food?

00:53:24This proposition that they are limited and unlimited at the same time is unintelligible. It's a contradiction. It's an affront to logic

00:53:30That's it. This will cause you cognitive dissonance because if you want to be a rational actor and you want to be that's the thing

00:53:36Yeah, yeah, I don't want to be a rational actor, but you do when you do your scientific experiments. That's true

00:53:43So, why'd you why'd you separate the two things?

00:53:46Because rationality should be subordinated to something above it and I'm trying to subordinate myself to that and so

00:53:53My reaction to what you're saying

00:53:56is that

00:53:58It's an in this isn't an insult. I'm telling you what my reaction is. Please say it's not it's not even a criticism

00:54:04Yes, I find the discussion that discussion as soon as it started

00:54:10I found that less interesting than what we were doing before it was harder for me to focus on and I I think the reason

00:54:15for that is that

00:54:17it it

00:54:19transforms to some and I'm not saying this isn't necessary at sometimes but it transforms the transcendent into

00:54:26Something like an intellectual and propositional discussion and so in some sense

00:54:30We're debating perhaps not the fine points of theology because they're more like the blunt points of theology

00:54:36but there's something about that that

00:54:39There's something about that. That isn't what I want to do with you. Yes, you know, and it isn't that it's not necessary

00:54:45So let me flip it around right agree. So one of the things I'm very curious about is

00:54:52obviously the figure of Christ is

00:54:54Contentious. Yes, and so the Jews don't know what to make of Christ in some fundamental sense because he seems like the last

00:55:02he seems like and

00:55:04What would you a continuation of the prophetic tradition in some real sense plus he was Jewish?

00:55:09So that makes things complicated and then of course the Christians put the figure of Christ as as central in some real sense

00:55:15but that begs the question of the relationship between Christ and God and then in the Muslim community Christ is also a central figure and

00:55:23So I'm curious about that and we could say we have doctrinal differences about what constitutes that centrality

00:55:30It's like fair enough, and I would also not say that I understand

00:55:35What that centrality means like so one of the ways I would understand that let's say is that

00:55:41In in the Western tradition. I don't know to what degree this is true in the Muslim tradition one of the

00:55:49attributes of what Christ is

00:55:53Psychologically is

00:55:55the logos and so if we're engaged in dialogue, which is

00:55:59dual logos

00:56:00then we're embodying the spirit of something like mutual enlightenment and that's

00:56:06then the presence of that spirit in the in the

00:56:12Genuine confines of temporal reality, right?

00:56:15it's something like the infinite descending to the finite to

00:56:19Illuminate us and to the degree that we can have a dialogue in good faith

00:56:23which is also a religious notion then we can engage in that process of

00:56:28Dialogos and that transforms and redeems us and then what I say well do I believe that I say well

00:56:33It isn't just that I believe it as a proposition

00:56:36It's that I can tell when it's happening and so can you I think it's like

00:56:41You're gonna see that this conversation will ebb and flow you know and some of the time

00:56:45It's gonna grip you you think we're at the heart of the matter and sometime your attention is gonna wander it

00:56:50Your attention is gonna wander when we're off the path

00:56:53And so I would say that yes to the degree that you and I are communicating

00:56:57This is a religious way of thinking about it

00:56:59Is that we're doing our best to embody the spirit of the logos and if that's working then we're making progress

00:57:04and I know that in the Western tradition that's part of what has been conceptualized as the fundamental attribute of

00:57:12The figure of Christ and I know that Christ is central in the Muslim tradition

00:57:16And so one of the things I would want to know is not how we differ doctrinally

00:57:21Yeah, because I don't even think I'm qualified to

00:57:28What I would like to know instead is why do you believe that the figure of Christ is central in some sense?

00:57:35Or maybe I've got that wrong although. I don't think so

00:57:38Why do you think the figure of Christ is central both to the Muslim faith and the Christian faith?

00:57:43And what do you think that says about what we share in common because I really don't understand that it's a mystery to me

00:57:49Okay, so Jesus Christ if

00:57:52Secular historians will look at him and differ on his existence or not the majority to be fair do believe he existed

00:57:58Right the even secular historians atheists and agnostics or whatever it may be right. It's the simplest explanation

00:58:03Yeah, it's a simply of course yeah

00:58:05So I believe that first of all Jesus Christ existed which in the modern age is worth noting right Muslims actually

00:58:11Muslims are the only other major world religion who believe in what Jesus Christ as the Messiah as the Prophet

00:58:17Right. I had the virgin. This is a strange thing. Yeah, we should definitely be trying to sort that out

00:58:22All right. So this is the first point of commonality. We believe in Jesus Christ

00:58:26We believe in his miracles that he cured the blind of God's permission that he raised the dead with God's permission

00:58:31We believe that he even you know, he created that something which in the Gospel of Thomas nomination the Bible like, you know

00:58:37But for example the the clay bird and so on that he blew into it and it became an actual bird

00:58:42That he cured the leper with God's permission

00:58:44We believe that he was one of the mightiest

00:58:46Human beings I've ever lived on the earth and we believe that his mother was the best woman who ever lived on the earth

00:58:51The Quran actually explicitly says that well, that seems like a good starting point, right?

00:58:55And so that is the first thing we believe when we look at the Quranic verses relating to Jesus Christ

00:59:02We don't look at those metaphorically no

00:59:05Orthodox Muslim normatively looks at those

00:59:08In a easier logical way. It's not you theology for us. It's it's it's history

00:59:13So we believe that this is actually historical

00:59:15that's the first thing and the reason why I mentioned that to you is because I

00:59:19Listen to all of your biblical series. I think a lot of Muslims have and yeah, a lot of people like it

00:59:24And because obviously yeah strangely enough and no and it's not very strange

00:59:28if you know the Quran because the Quran actually tells us to go to the people of the book and to listen to them and

00:59:33You know and you'll find that exegesis is like for example

00:59:36Tafsir bin Kathir like one of the staple exegesis of the Quran

00:59:40They use biblical verses all the time. Let's go to the people of the book. Let's see what information they have

00:59:45I thought buddy mentions what you call Israeli act, which is basically passages from the Bible passages from the

00:59:51Torah and so on like that from the biblical tradition and from the Torah

00:59:55So it's not really it's not it's not abnormal for Muslim people to be interested in Christian explanations

01:00:01That's been going on for a thousand three hundred years. Yeah, that's the first thing. The second thing is that

01:00:06Why because symbolism is important and you've mentioned for example Egyptian symbolism you mentioned for example

01:00:11Oh resist, you know, I don't know Isis and all this not that Isis. I know you think he already thinks I'm a good

01:00:18But you know the Egyptian god Isis I have to make that very clear

01:00:22and so on yeah, so

01:00:24my question would be therefore I before we talk about symbolism because a symbol can be something you can have a symbol and

01:00:31An expression of something which exists at the same time

01:00:33For example, you can have something which is metal not metaphoric because you can't have a metaphor and anonymous for us

01:00:38You know, we can't have a symbol and something which doesn't for example. I say that you are a symbol for Western

01:00:43I don't know whatever it is

01:00:44Intellectualism. Yeah, possibly. I mean this debate is Jordan Peterson a symbol for us into debate it

01:00:50And he exists now

01:00:52Here's the point like, you know

01:00:53You know that there are central doctrines to Christianity like the crucifixion the ascension the resurrection

01:00:59And although all the above right these are doctrines, how do we look at these doctrines?

01:01:04Because the reason why I'm asking I think you are qualified or at least you have some because you did mention in your lectures

01:01:09that you are taking the approach of the Alexandrian school, which is like a

01:01:13Origin of Alexander and his Jewish teacher Philo and these kinds of people who take what you call the spiritualizing text

01:01:18They spiritualize the text

01:01:20They were known the Alexandrian school was known for spiritualizing the text and they were aberrational in that in that sense

01:01:26One of the reasons why they were seen as heretics by that by all I think all the churches the Eastern

01:01:31I mean just origin, but the

01:01:33Origin said some things which are heretical but he has massive influence on church fathers that are respected

01:01:39But I used to your point. Yeah, the the let's say the notion that

01:01:43That facts have meaning that is something that as Christians we should believe. Yes, right

01:01:50God created the world with the meaningful structure

01:01:52So the world lays itself out in a way that when we see it

01:01:55We can see them exactly and this is something which all all types of Christians will do the Catholics will do that

01:02:00It's an orthodox and Protestants. All of them will say you must believe in these doctrines as happening

01:02:05You cannot believe in them a symbol. You cannot believe so the reason why this actually so when I when I hear something like that

01:02:10Yeah, then the question that arises for me is

01:02:14What do you mean?

01:02:16Happening and so so let me just unpack that a little bit

01:02:19So I did a lecture last night at the Apollo on the story of Cain and Abel. Yes, and one of the things that I

01:02:26Proposed was that

01:02:28Not only did that story happen

01:02:30But it's it's always happening. Yeah, it always happened

01:02:35It's happening right now, and it's always going to happen into the future

01:02:39and so I would say to some degree the mere reduction of these profound stories to a

01:02:47historical reality is

01:02:49an

01:02:50underestimate of their truth because they're a strange kind of truth because they're the truth that

01:02:56Always happened and is happening now and always will happen. So if they can enable story, for example

01:03:02Yeah, you have a story of the eternal battle between something like the spirit of joyful and appropriate

01:03:10sacrifice which is

01:03:12Characterizes Abel and the spirit of resentful

01:03:15resentment against the structure of existence as a consequence of thrownness and the shaking of the fist at God and

01:03:22That's always happening because for all of us, you know, we look at our lives and we think well, should we be happy to be alive?

01:03:29Should we be grateful to be alive?

01:03:31and the answer to that is

01:03:33often but not always and if you put someone in the position of Job and

01:03:37He's being tortured to death by fate and tragedy and catastrophe and malevolence. He might well come to a point where he's

01:03:45motivated to take the resentful path and shake his fist at God and we have those spirits inside of us warring constantly and so

01:03:54When and so then when I look at a story like Cain and Abel, I think well the question did that happen?

01:04:02Begs the question what do you mean by happen?

01:04:05Because when you are dealing with fundamental realities and you pose a question

01:04:10Yes, you have to understand that the reality of the concepts of your question

01:04:16When you're digging that deep are just as questionable about as what you're questioning, you know, so people say to me

01:04:23What do you do you believe in God and I think okay, there's a couple of mysteries in that question

01:04:30What do you mean do?

01:04:32What do you mean you what do you mean?

01:04:35Believe and what do you mean God and you say as the questioner?

01:04:39Well, we already know what all those things mean except belief in God and I think no if we're gonna get down to the fundamental

01:04:47Brass tacks

01:04:48We don't really know what any of those things mean and so for me believe for example is often reflected

01:04:55Not so much in proposition as it is an action if I want to know what you believe I could ask you and hopefully you

01:05:02Have some idea about what you believe but I'd rather see what you do

01:05:06Well, can I can I can I push back a little bit with this because like for example when I was reading your book

01:05:10Your newest book actually this time. Yeah, it's 12 more rules. They're very good books, by the way

01:05:14I mean, I recommend it honestly and buy them if you

01:05:19I

01:05:21Specifically recommend the 12 rules for life because it's all more rules. I have some criticisms of it, but it's good

01:05:28It's a good book. But one thing you did say about it. You're really hard to believe that you're disagreeable

01:05:36So one thing you mentioned in the end the book you were talking about some psychological theory

01:05:40Which I don't forget I forget what it is, right?

01:05:43You mentioned something you said this, you know the problem with this such-and-such theory

01:05:49Is that it doesn't have any evidence full stop

01:05:52Categorical all this what you're doing now, you didn't mention that you didn't say well you depends on what you mean by this

01:05:58It depends on me. Sorry to say yeah, but it depends on what you mean by this

01:06:02It depends what you mean you become postmodern all of a sudden. It's like you've become now you yeah, that's that's a definite

01:06:08Oh, yeah, that's a definite. Look. I think that's partly why the postmodern

01:06:12Critique in some sense was inevitable is

01:06:15Because we started to dig down into something like say the meaning of stories because that's really where the postmodernists got their

01:06:24Impetus because the postmodern literary theorists or to drag this up, but it's relevant

01:06:30they hit a mystery which was

01:06:33Well, if you read a given text story or even a paragraph and you get a hundred people to offer

01:06:40their opinion on it in some way you get a hundred different opinions and

01:06:45You can tell that if you assign students to write an essay

01:06:49let's say and so then a problem emerges is this well if there's a hundred different opinions and

01:06:54Some of them even appear to oppose one another. How do you know what the true?

01:07:00Significance is of the text and then worse. How do you even know that there is a true significance?

01:07:06And then that and then you think okay, well, that's a that's a major problem and then here's a worse problem

01:07:13Imagine you have an assemblage of texts like like the biblical corpus

01:07:17Let's say which is really a library and it's in some sense canonical, right?

01:07:21well, if you can't decide on the fixed meaning of even a given paragraph how in the world can you make the statement that

01:07:30this

01:07:32Collection of texts which are much more complicated than just paragraphs is somehow

01:07:38Canonical now the answer to that is this is the answer. We don't know

01:07:43now the problem with the postmodernists wasn't that they figured out that this was a mystery because

01:07:50Not only is this the mystery of textual interpretation, which is a major mystery

01:07:55How do we understand the text?

01:07:56But it's also in the mystery of perception because at the same time people who are investigating perception

01:08:02Jonathan has been talking about this with John Verbecky a cognitive scientist at the same time

01:08:08scientists on the perceptual front in AI labs and and

01:08:12Neuroscientists were discovering that it's so complicated to look at the world, which is to interpret the world

01:08:18Let's say that it isn't obvious that it's even possible, which is partly why we don't have autonomous robots

01:08:24They can't see the world now, it's easy for us because we just look at it, but that's not so easy. And so

01:08:32Well, so what's the point of all this?

01:08:34well, the point of all this is that if you delve into questions deeply enough you do run into the problem of

01:08:42perception and the multitude and multiplicity of perception and that's a real problem and so when I

01:08:48Do something like I interrogate a question

01:08:51Well, the postmodern problem does emerge now

01:08:54I've been trying to work out solutions to that and and Jonathan and I and John Verbecky have been discussing this a lot

01:09:01The postmodernists were correct. I think in their

01:09:05Diagnosis of the problem they leapt right to the idea that the way we solve the problem of perception is by exercising power

01:09:11If they just took a Marxist story and said well, there's the solution

01:09:15They hear who you're talking about in particular mostly the French intellectual types

01:09:19They're done Foucault and yeah, I would I would I would disagree with this by the way

01:09:23I don't think the Derrida or Foucault took a Marxist position at all

01:09:26Well, Jonathan, you want to have at that for a bit? That's not my fight. It's a worthless victory for me

01:09:30You sure you want to talk about that? No, no, I don't like

01:09:33Okay. Well, well we can either delve into that or not. Yeah, let me just say something

01:09:38I've learned about what you what you were saying

01:09:40That is I think that when there's this question of do you believe in God?

01:09:44I think one of the problems that Jordan no

01:09:47The the difficulty that Jordan faced was faced with a modern Protestantism, which was very propositional

01:09:54and it was like just I believe and it's just a bunch of things that you believe in in terms of thinking and I do

01:10:00think that

01:10:02what Jordan is

01:10:03Trying to grasp at and trying to understand is actually probably closer to something that most traditional Muslims would believe which is that?

01:10:12if you say

01:10:14That you submit to God, but you don't submit to God then that word is empty. I agree with yes

01:10:20Yeah, so it is why is it empty right if you said the words why is it still empty?

01:10:25And so the so I think that what he's grasping at is to find a more encompassing

01:10:30It's like stop asking me if I believe in God watch me. Yeah

01:10:34No, but I get what you're saying

01:10:36but what I'm saying is this is that the attitude that you have towards scientific investigation is

01:10:42That which is more congruent with a correspondence stereotype, yes, right

01:10:46So you simply ask the question that by the way, the Quran asks and one of the questions central questions the Quran asks us to ask

01:10:54Christians and Jews is called how to borrow Hanukkah and content Sadiqeen bring your evidence if you're truthful

01:11:00This is the central question that Muslims are asked to ask the same question that you as a scientist ask

01:11:06We have to ask as well. And I'm so using with ask Allah

01:11:09What I'm saying is this is where the cognitive dissonance may come in I'm not it does it does yeah

01:11:14So that is part of what's torn the West apart on

01:11:18Say on the basis of the Enlightenment versus the religious tradition and agree that that's a con just to add to those points is

01:11:24For example going back to origin of Alexandria origin of Alexandria because he has this hermeneutical dilemma. He has a hermeneutical dilemma, right?

01:11:31He doesn't know what to do with what verse is he going to spiritualize it metaphor as it or is he not going to do?

01:11:36He was asked by an apologist called Celsus he said what do you say of the crucifixion and

01:11:40He responds to the effect to an effect to say that not everything was true

01:11:44what happened in the crucifixion point is that when you open the can of worms of hermeneutical spiritualization or

01:11:52exegetical or

01:11:53You know metaphor ization. Yeah, when you open that can of worms what is left of Christianity is

01:11:59Basically mythological now then I will say what makes this myth better than any other myth

01:12:04What's why are we investigating the myth of Christianity and not for example the myth of Hercules and Zeus?

01:12:10Why is the figure of father and son and the Holy Spirit more important to me than the Mithraic?

01:12:16Would you call it Trinity? Yeah. Well, that's a postmodern question and you could take that even farther and say well

01:12:22Why this story rather than that story at any level of story and that is a central question

01:12:28How would you answer could why did you for example, you've done a biblical lecture?

01:12:31So, why have you done a biblical lecture not a lecture on Zeus and this and all these although I have done lectures on

01:12:36on other religious structures particularly on

01:12:40ancient Egyptian cosmology and on

01:12:43Mesopotamian cosmology and I'm going to do a lecture on the Tao Te Ching

01:12:46Sorry, do you consider that the biblical narrative as as as having any level of superiority over the other myth?

01:12:52Well, okay. Okay. So so let me let me try to address this cycle even he's interesting. Oh, yeah

01:12:59I'm a Christian. So so I've been trying to understand so I'll tell you one thing that

01:13:06Clinical psychologists have learned over the last hundred years

01:13:10Despite their doctrinal differences. So there's many schools of clinical psychology ranging from behaviorism

01:13:16which is very practical and strategic and has to do with micro changes in action to

01:13:23Psychoanalytic theory say on the Jungian side, which is more interested in dreams and large-scale

01:13:29transformations of the imagination spreads spans a huge range of philosophies and practical approaches, but

01:13:36There is one commonality and it's emerged. I would say empirically

01:13:42the behaviorists first discovered the behaviorists discovered that if someone was afraid of something and

01:13:48Avoiding it and the combination of those two things are important because there's lots of things you should be afraid of

01:13:54That you should avoid like playing in traffic because you'll just die if you go run out in the street

01:13:59but imagine that you're moving towards a necessary goal and

01:14:04You're pretty committed to it and something comes up that you're afraid of and it stops you and now you start to avoid

01:14:10Okay, and then maybe that gives you an anxiety disorder makes you depressed

01:14:14then the question is

01:14:16What are you avoiding and why and what should you do about it? And what the behavior is started to do was to

01:14:22Expose people to small doses of what they were afraid of and get them to relax and the idea was well

01:14:28If you could learn to relax in the face of what you were afraid of

01:14:32Then the fear would go away and maybe you had learned in some way to associate that with anxiety earlier now

01:14:38It turned out that that worked, but it also turned out that it worked even if you didn't relax

01:14:44And so there wasn't a learning to be calm

01:14:47and then the psychoanalysts said now that's not gonna work behaviorists because you'll expose someone to this little fear and

01:14:55Because the true fear is much deeper the fear will just reemerge somewhere else

01:15:00They called that symptom substitution and that didn't happen either because what happened weirdly enough was that if you got someone to confront something

01:15:08They were afraid of

01:15:10voluntarily

01:15:11Then they got less afraid

01:15:13That was the first theory less afraid of a whole bunch of things

01:15:16So a little courage generated more and that's a more accurate way of thinking about it turns out people didn't get less afraid

01:15:23they got braver and

01:15:25So their personality started to expand and so what you see often

01:15:30one category of people who often develop anxiety disorders are dependent women and

01:15:35So those are women who've gone from sort of superordinate man to superordinate man

01:15:40Who've never established a sufficient individual identity and maybe that comes back to haunt them later in life

01:15:46And they develop an anxiety disorder and maybe they're afraid to get into an elevator

01:15:51so you can teach them to

01:15:53confront the elevator and to get in it and to take it and then they'll go home and have a fight with their husband and

01:15:59It's because they're braver and often the husband and the rest of the family will resist

01:16:03This woman's attempt to become more courageous because they know what's going to happen if it's successful

01:16:08But what that is what you see is you see

01:16:11Generalization of bravery and that's and every psychological school knows this. Okay. So now you asked me a theological question

01:16:19So I'm going to address that so I've been trying to understand from a psychological perspective

01:16:24for example

01:16:25why people have been gazing on the figure of the crucifix for 2,000 years now, not everyone and and

01:16:33Doctrinal differences apart it's still many people for 2,000 years and that begs a question

01:16:39Obviously, there's something about that image that's gripping

01:16:43Okay. So now you might think why well, why do people go to horror movies because that's pretty strange

01:16:49Why in the world would you go?

01:16:51Be disgusted and terrified because that's sort of the essence of horror and the answer is because there are

01:16:57Terrifying and disgusting things about life and maybe you should go confront them now and then voluntarily

01:17:02So you get a little taste so you can build a little

01:17:06courage and a little faith and so at minimum one of the things that the

01:17:13crucifixion story the passion story represents is

01:17:17something like the sum of all possible tragedy and so Jung

01:17:23Pointed out that the passion narrative was an archetypal tragedy and this is what he meant by that

01:17:29imagine that you took a bunch of stories that were tragic and so you could identify them all as tragic stories and a

01:17:36Tragic story is something like something terrible happens to someone who doesn't deserve it. That's a tragedy

01:17:41So then imagine you have ten stories about maybe someone got betrayed by his best friend and someone fall prey to a tyranny

01:17:49Tyranny and someone died young and someone innocent was punished by a court and you'd think oh, that's tragic

01:17:55and then you took all those tragedies and you took the core of the tragedy and you made it into one story and that's

01:18:02In some sense what the passion story is

01:18:05It's the sum of all possible tragedies insofar as that can be construed by the revelatory

01:18:12Imagination and then you might say well why gaze upon that?

01:18:16Well the reason for that there's a story in Exodus

01:18:20it's in numbers actually where the Israelites are lost in the desert like we all are and

01:18:27people are losing faith because they're in the desert and you know and not and

01:18:33And not voluntarily in some true sense. And so they're losing faith. They're getting all fractious. They're fighting

01:18:39They're starting to worship false idols. They're falling apart and God gets irritated at that

01:18:45And so he sends a bunch of poisonous snakes in to bite them and you think well, why would God do that?

01:18:51It's like well, have you been alive?

01:18:52You know perfectly well that if you're confused and lost and then you get bitter and disunited that all you do is make things

01:18:59Worse and that more snakes come up to bite you. It's like that's life. And so the Israelites come to Moses and they say

01:19:07You seem to be in quite nicely with God. Do you want to ask him to call off the snakes like we're sorry

01:19:15Get him to call off the snakes. And so Moses has a chat with God

01:19:19let's say and and and God says he doesn't call off the snakes and so that's thing about God is

01:19:25Very often he doesn't call off the snakes, you know

01:19:29And he says instead to Moses that you have to make a staff

01:19:33You have to cast a staff out of bronze and on the staff you have to place a serpent and then all the Israelites

01:19:39have to go and look at the serpent and if they look at the serpent then they'll no longer be poisoned by the snakes and

01:19:46and

01:19:46Then there's a section in the Gospels where Christ says something

01:19:50Approximating that unless his figure be lifted up like the serpent in the desert

01:19:55No one can be redeemed unless his figure is lifted up like the serpent in the desert

01:19:59There's a very strange thing to have happen, right? Because it's a reference to this very strange

01:20:05Story that's ancient in a very strange

01:20:09Context many thousands of years later, but can imagine this

01:20:13It's like it's a bad thing to be confronted with snakes

01:20:16and and there's a real reason that the symbol for medical transformation is a stake on a snap on a staff right and and not just

01:20:25Associated with the Judeo-christian tradition. It's a much older idea than that

01:20:28And so while there's snakes and that's bad and you should look at them

01:20:34But then there's something like the sum total of all possible snakes and

01:20:39That would be all the terrible things that could happen to you in life. And then you could think well, maybe you need a story that

01:20:47Encompasses that territory of terrible things

01:20:52that you can then look on and

01:20:55That's at least in part what the passion story represents now

01:20:59You can debate about whether or not it's a full account of the historic component comprehensive tragedy of life

01:21:05But I like I said, I'm thinking about it psychologically now, there's more to it because around that story

01:21:12there's also a cloud of

01:21:16Mythology of associated imagery and and one of those

01:21:21Developed dreams is something like the harrowing of hell

01:21:25So not only does Christ die terribly despite not only being innocent

01:21:30but being good and being betrayed and being subject to tyranny and

01:21:36having to die

01:21:38It before the eyes of his mother all of that, but that's not enough

01:21:44That hell itself has to be confronted. I would say well, is that true of your life? It's like well

01:21:51Terrible things are going to happen to you and you better be prepared and then you might think well, that's too much and

01:21:58If it's not too much, it's at least enough and I would say yeah, that'd be good to believe

01:22:03but I don't think it's true because you're actually going to have to do something like

01:22:08Confront the reality at least of historical atrocity and human hell because that's part of your character, too

01:22:16And in order to fully reveal what you could be

01:22:20Then you have to contend with all of that and you have to do it voluntarily

01:22:24and so part of the reason I'm interested in that the Christian story, let's say is because

01:22:31It that part of the story is where the the rubber hits the road in some sense. It's like well

01:22:38That's your responsibility is to confront the catastrophe and hellish aspect of life forthrightly

01:22:44and then the question is is that transformative and one answer is

01:22:50What did Nietzsche say, you know, you can tell the character of a man's spirit by determining how much truth he can tolerate

01:22:56It's a very interesting way of thinking about it. This is a crushing weight this notion, but

01:23:02Life is going to throw its catastrophes at you sometimes even if you're innocent and if you're not

01:23:11Prepared

01:23:12You know in faith

01:23:14Well, you're gonna fold and then it's gonna be much worse and how much do you have to face and the answer might be

01:23:20Every bit of it, you know on this point. Thank you for that. I think that you've really expressed that in a very powerful way and

01:23:27the last comment that you made really was

01:23:30Reminded me of a prophetic saying of the Prophet Muhammad. He said

01:23:34Ajaban li amr al mu'min

01:23:35Wanderers is the

01:23:37Wanderers is the affair of the believer in the amr. Wanderers is the affair of the believer

01:23:43Wanderers is the affair of the believer in the amr. Kullahu lahu khayrun

01:23:47All of his affair is good

01:23:50Wa laysa dhaka li ahadin illa lil mu'min and this is not afforded to anybody except for the true believer

01:23:57In asabat hu sarra shakar

01:24:00If good happens to him, he is thankful

01:24:04Wa in asabat hu darra sabara wa shakar

01:24:07And if negative things happen to him, he's patient and he's thankful. Right? That's a hard thing to pull off

01:24:14The powerful thing is and this is what Nietzsche was a great advocate for ironically

01:24:18He's a you know father of post-modernism in a sense, but he was talking about human suffering

01:24:22Yeah as a positive thing for the resilience or building of resilience and human being and this

01:24:28Goes back to the point of purpose. Yeah. Well, you know what so here's another thing that psychologists have learned

01:24:34So imagine that you take a group of people and you subject them to a difficult and onerous and stressful task

01:24:42Yeah, but you've you've allowed you set up the experiment

01:24:45So one group has that inflicted on them

01:24:48Let's say and the other group decides to do it voluntarily and then you measure as accurately as you can

01:24:53The pattern of physical and psychological response to those two conditions what you find is that

01:25:00independent of the of the weight of the load

01:25:04the attitude

01:25:06Transforms the response and so if you confront something difficult in the spirit of voluntary engagement

01:25:12A whole different spirit takes hold of you and you can measure that to be fair. That's exactly what I remember

01:25:18Viktor Frankl saying yes

01:25:19He was saying that those in the in the concentration camp who are most likely to survive are in fact those who made meaning out

01:25:26Of well, Solzhenitsyn said something. I think that was even more profound on that front. He said

01:25:32He left ambiguous the issue of whether or not you were more likely to survive

01:25:38If you were a believer

01:25:40Let's say although he was struck as an atheist by the composure that true religious believers had in the gulag

01:25:47but what he did say more importantly I would say even was that if you were a

01:25:52Genuine believer your soul was more likely to survive and what he meant by that was

01:25:58Many people in the gulag camps became corrupted and you can think about them as a microcosm of the world people were under tremendous

01:26:05stress and one of the

01:26:07temptations was to become a trustee and

01:26:11Participate in the system of oppression and the camps in Russia could not possibly have sustained themselves

01:26:17if the prisoners weren't running them and that's something to think about with regards to totalitarianism and and

01:26:24Solzhenitsyn did note and it was transformative to him that there were people of genuine religious faith who were

01:26:32immobile in their commitment to ethical action even in the confines of the camp even when faced with

01:26:38Something like recant or die and maybe not just you die

01:26:42maybe your family died or maybe you die in misery and and one of the things that transformed Solzhenitsyn and and then the world

01:26:49because his book transformed the world in large part was his

01:26:54observation that this genuine striving to something like

01:26:58Clarity of speech and a higher unity could withstand even the catastrophes of the gulag camps

01:27:04I want to ask you a question just before we end

01:27:07Here just to indicate we need to wrap up

01:27:09Okay, but I just want to ask what one last question because I'm interested in both both of you both of you in a sense

01:27:14Yeah, I said that you know for from a Muslim perspective. The question that we're asked to ask is bring the evidence

01:27:19Yeah, if I were to bring

01:27:22Reasonable evidence which would satisfy

01:27:24Some kind of probabilistic reasoning that the Prophet Muhammad

01:27:28We believe is the final prophet right that he was a true prophet. Would you be willing to become a Muslim? I

01:27:35Wouldn't I

01:27:38Wouldn't

01:27:40Dispute a priori the idea that Muhammad was a true prophet

01:27:45But I don't understand what that means

01:27:47So like obviously so this is the way I'm gonna look at this psychologically again, you know

01:27:52It's people are granted revelations and it's obviously the case. Let's speak empirically that the revelation of Muhammad

01:28:00United a fractious society and so it was a uniting revelation now how to

01:28:07Conceptualize but it's not a universally uniting revelation at least not yet or not now because we're not all united. So

01:28:16Why well, maybe we didn't understand the revelation

01:28:20Possibility is the presupposition what you're saying that unity is the ultimate objective

01:28:25Well, not exactly, you know, because then you have the problem of uniformity that you

01:28:30Even the idea of unity itself. I mean is there what we talked about? Okay, so unity is a great just to be clear

01:28:36Yeah, I believe that unity is a great objective. Yeah, but I don't think it's the old defining one

01:28:40For example, and if there's a if there is an injustice that is so great that this unity is more appropriate

01:28:47Then I can imagine situations where this unity is probably better than unity, right?

01:28:51I'm sure you can as well. For example, like that would be a false unity. Yeah, exactly

01:28:55So that's why you wanted to address the elephant under the way. We can't have a false piece exactly and we can't incorporate things

01:29:03We can't yet incorporate. Yes

01:29:05The reason I'm bringing this to your attention is because I feel like it's my duty as a Muslim especially in the mosque

01:29:09right to to tell you that

01:29:13As Muslims we believe that the previous dispensations as they were like Christianity and Judaism

01:29:17They are part of our faith in a sense

01:29:20Not in the sense of believing the doctrines and all of that kind of thing

01:29:23Like we obviously don't believe in original sin or the resurrection the crucifixion all this kind of thing

01:29:27We don't believe in any of that or the Trinity, of course

01:29:30But in the sense that we do believe in Jesus Christ

01:29:33We believe in all of the Old Testament prophets most of them if not all of them

01:29:37You know Abraham Moses Jesus and so on and we believe that each prophet was sent with two things the message

01:29:43Which is to believe in worship in one God and some kind of evidence to indicate their truthfulness

01:29:48So with for example Moses and Jesus, we know what the miracles are splitting the scene and we believe that actually happened historically, right?

01:29:55We have no qualms with that. We don't have this kind of materialistic

01:29:59viewpoint on the issue

01:30:00With Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. We believe that his because he was sent to all of humanity

01:30:06He had to have a an evidence base that would satisfy

01:30:10Not just the eyes in other words, it wouldn't be just something that could be witnessed

01:30:14It'll be something that can be interrogated and scrutinized for all times and places

01:30:19So it would be an auditory revelation in this case is the Quran the Quran means a recitation

01:30:23yeah, so the central message of the Quran is to hate or the idea of worship in one God and

01:30:30Believing in one God as we've mentioned

01:30:32But there are some there is an attempt in the Quran

01:30:36To challenge by for example, there's something called the falsification test or the inimitability test

01:30:43The Quran says for example that try and find a contradiction within the Quran

01:30:46Had it been from other than God, we would have found many contradictions

01:30:51It's this inimitability challenge is to produce something as sophisticated as it in terms of the linguistic

01:30:59composition as well as the structural component

01:31:02This is very interesting because now even Western academics like Angelica Neurath and others have said that this met this challenge has not been met

01:31:09So German orientalist, she's recently said this

01:31:13So this is another thing then you have a range of prophecies

01:31:16For example, like if you look at the Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 21

01:31:19It's mentioned the Bible that one of the mark hallmarks of a true prophet is that or a false prophet is that when they talk?

01:31:25About the future that it will be false. Well, the Quran makes very specific

01:31:30Very specific prophecies about a future. For example in chapter 30 verse 2 to 4

01:31:34It says Ghalibatul Rum fi Adna al-addi wa hum min ba'di ghalabihim sayaghliboon

01:31:39That the Romans had been defeated at that time

01:31:42There was a Sassanid Empire in the Roman Empire and they were in war with each other

01:31:46And that from three to nine years that they would defeat the enemy

01:31:50You see it gave very specific timelines. It gave very specific and this was a very risky type of

01:31:56Prediction because if you got it wrong, then it would endanger and undermine the entire prophethood of the Prophet Muhammad

01:32:01But it did happen. And in fact, you'll find

01:32:04Historical things which I'm not even in the Quran Romans defeated that role

01:32:08No that the that Persians sorry that the Romans had been defeated by the Persians in a battle. Yeah

01:32:13And so that's it's mentioned for example, the Chronicles of Theophany's which is a primary source material outside of the Quran. So now

01:32:20You can find it now. It's even translated into English. He clearly mentions that

01:32:24Eight years after this particular prediction took place. It did happen like that

01:32:28So we have a range of predictions even that relates to the current day

01:32:32the Prophet said that the the barefooted Arab be at a tower of a boonion there will be

01:32:38Competing for the highest building that sexually transmitted diseases would be

01:32:42Proliferated as a result of people having intercourse outside of marriage and that this would be something that would be

01:32:49Diseases that had never been there in the past

01:32:51the interest rate

01:32:53interest based

01:32:54Economy that we live in is mentioned by the problem house. I said in the future

01:32:58Interest will be everywhere in them to call who?

01:33:01In let me I call you a saboteur. Nobody whoever does not consume it. He will not be able to evade his dust

01:33:07So this is another thing. So for example

01:33:10You've got a range of prophecies where Islam will spread country by country where you know, this mentions he's gonna go

01:33:17There's a hadith as a zoo. We are you loved that the earth has been expanded for me for items

01:33:21I saw it's s West points and East points. Well in that ummaty say a blue home or Kua and my nation will reach

01:33:29Its points mazoo. Yeah, I mean how what was projected and ascending east and west if you look at the Islamic expansion

01:33:34I mean Barnaby Rogerson. Yeah, who is a historian?

01:33:38He said that the similitude of the Muslims

01:33:41Going eastward and westward and conquering the amount of countries that they conquered in that early period which you can read in the book

01:33:48I'd given you is like Eskimos taken over Russia and America

01:33:52That's what you said Barnaby Rogerson on the point of prophecies even people like Edward Gibbons

01:33:57They agree that the prophecies of the Quran had been met. So I have to ask. Yeah, so I don't I don't know

01:34:04I don't understand the question exactly. He wants to know if you convert to Islam. No, I'm saying that

01:34:09I

01:34:12Would say to some degree it's not up to me

01:34:15No, no, but my question was just to remind you

01:34:17The question was if I gave you evidence that would satisfy a certain level of probabilistic. No

01:34:23So you wouldn't know because that isn't how I evaluate the situation. How would you evaluate it?

01:34:29This is the crow. I'm a Muslim enough to have been invited to your mosque. No, no, you're always invited

01:34:34No, no, I mean this specifically I mean this very specifically, you know, um, I don't think in some sense

01:34:43It's a very complicated problem. Okay

01:34:46You know when when people

01:34:48Meet me on the street

01:34:50they'll say things like I met a couple of

01:34:53Orthodox Jews in New York and they said to me on the street that they called me rabbi which was

01:34:59It's a

01:35:03Hell of a thing to hear

01:35:05you know and

01:35:07so and then I have Muslim people who are listening to my biblical lectures and

01:35:13More than that. They say the way. Yeah. Yes. Yes more than that and you know, they say well Peterson doesn't know it yet

01:35:19but he's really a Muslim and and and

01:35:22That's very

01:35:24That's an honor, you know

01:35:27Just like it was an honor to be approached by these Orthodox Jews and and that that hasn't only happened once and I've had lots

01:35:34of correspondence with people and the same thing has happened with the Orthodox Christians and to some degree the Catholics and less or so the

01:35:40Protestants but and so I don't know exactly what to make of that. We talked about this a little bit

01:35:46Yeah, and let's talk about proof, you know, well for me the proof of faith is the attractiveness of its adherence

01:35:53That's something to think about right? Well, are you a shining example of the Muslim faith? Well, how hard do you shine?

Talking to Muslims About Christ - Mohammed Hijab & Jonathan Pageau - EP 297

Category

Transcript

Recommended