Alfonso Cuarón discusses his upcoming TV series 'Disclaimer' at the Variety Studio at TIFF.
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00:00I don't know how to do television. For me, it's a bit too late in the game to start learning.
00:05So if I do this, I would approach it as the way that I do a film. For me, this is,
00:11and we kept on calling with Kate and with my collaborators, is a film.
00:15Well, congratulations on Disclaimer. I wonder, when this project came to you,
00:31did you first envision it as a feature film?
00:35When I read the original material, I saw film immediately. But I could not fathom how to do it
00:43in a conventional format. And I have always been very, very intrigued about the long format.
00:51And when I'm talking about long format, I'm talking about films that they have taken
00:59for longer, I mean, longer length. I'm talking about films like 1900, Once Upon a Time in
01:06America, Reds, and even Twin Peaks, that pretty much that was a model that I considered a film.
01:21I cannot see it as just like conventional television. For me, it's related more in terms of
01:31the vision of an author in terms of a film. And so I was intrigued about this,
01:37so Funny and Alexander, for instance, I was very intrigued about this format.
01:43And I think everything went very organically in that direction.
01:48And what was it about this story that you felt needed that kind of length and breadth?
01:54I think it was the development of the characters. Because as much as the heavy thematic elements
02:03that are at the game in the piece, that as much as you watch, they keep on coming to the surface,
02:14an aspect that was very important for me was the aspect of the narrative and how
02:21we perceive narrative and how we create our own narratives based upon those narratives.
02:28And in order to do that, I had to have very strong narrative lines with a whole full arc
02:38and development in a way that that conversation between those narratives and your own narratives
02:47happened. When you were talking about narrative,
02:51were you thinking somewhat in terms of what you do also professionally in terms of forming
02:56narratives, in terms of telling stories? Oh, for sure. Because I think the whole
03:03question of narrative obviously is relevant in fiction. But I think that more than ever right
03:15now, we're experiencing a period in which narratives are taking over reason and narratives
03:30are taking over analysis of a discourse. Narrative are becoming so convincing sometimes
03:43in that they don't allow a greater conversation. People make up their minds based upon narrative.
03:53And you can see it in the political realm more and more all the time.
03:59But also, there's another very interesting narrative and probably the most relevant.
04:05That is the narrative that we tell ourselves, not only about the reality around us,
04:13but the narratives that we tell to ourselves about our own selves.
04:21Like the narratives that sometimes they are not necessarily very truthful according to facts.
04:34And how narratives in general, they have step over facts.
04:40And also, just in terms of narrative, you're talking about sort of personal identity?
04:44That's part of it. That's one of it, is your personal identity. Probably the narratives
04:50that nations, they create about themselves to forge an identity. But sometimes those narratives
05:00are hiding ugly truths. You know, that when they come up to the surface,
05:07they create a certain amount of trauma in different cultures.
05:16The whole thing of narrative. Because narrative, in the beginning of the whole piece,
05:25Christiane Amanpour says, beware of narrative and form. Because narrative and form can be
05:34amazing tools for knowledge and education, but also can be very powerful tools for manipulation.
05:46I would also imagine that it can be powerful tools because we come into narrative with biases
05:51that we possess, right? And we are looking for things that conform to those biases.
05:54Well, that is part of, that is exactly, that is why the most interesting thing in a film
06:02is the narrative between the audience and their own perception of things and the narrative
06:09presented to them. To go back to a little bit on the production of this, how did Kate Blanchett
06:18get involved? Had you been talking to each other about working together for a while? How did
06:23your orbits overlap? Well, I knew Kate very little. And it mostly was
06:32because we bump into each other in film festivals. And she's incredible because you will see her in
06:38film festivals. Sometimes she doesn't have a film there. And she goes to a film festival just to
06:45watch cinema, to watch films. And that's remarkable. I love that from the get-go.
06:52Also, but it was just like very brief, hello, goodbye. And each time it would be great to
06:58work together. The other way I knew I met her, but I didn't really meet her in person. It was like
07:06with all my envy and jealousy towards Guillermo and Alejandro because they had worked with Kate.
07:12So when I start working in the script, I mean, it was immediate. It was pretty much when the film
07:19formed in my head, I was thinking Kate. I could not phantom anybody else but Kate.
07:28And I was terrified that Kate would say no. But I was blessed that she agreed to do the show.
07:37Do you, with Guillermo and Alejandro, do you discuss actors? Like if you're thinking of
07:42casting someone in someone's work, do you kind of call each other up and get the down low on?
07:48I think that we discuss our laundry together. It's like, yeah, we discuss everything.
07:54In particular, when we're doing a film, we discuss the whole process from the screenplay
07:59that we shared our screenplays and we take notes from each other and heavy criticisms.
08:06And also then the casting process, we bounce ideas. And the whole process goes like that.
08:16And the shoot is a bit more quiet because you allow the space. Sometimes they call you
08:21or I call them during the process. And then in the editing process, we
08:30get very involved in each other's projects. What about Kevin Kline? Because this was kind
08:36of unexpected and he's so great in this show. What made you think of him for this role?
08:41Well, first of all, this thing that now... I think that one of those scenes of cinema is how
08:55neglected he had been for the last couple of decades. He's one of those amazing actors
09:03that I remember since I saw him in Selfish Choice. I fell in love with him. He's such a
09:11terrific actor and he showed the range that he has from Big Chill and Selfish Choice to
09:19Fish Called Wanda. But when Kate, because Kate became way more than just the person who was
09:30going to perform one of the roles, she became immediately a full-on collaborator. Someone that
09:37we were collaborating in the new draft of the script, we're collaborating in every single
09:42decision in every step of the game. And when we were talking about who was going to play Steven,
09:52we were struggling because we wanted someone unexpected. And I think Kate was in New York
09:59at the time and she called me and I said, hey, I was at this dinner party and we were talking
10:05about the Fish Called Wanda. And it's when I said, you mean Kevin? She says, yes, Kevin.
10:13And I said, yeah, why we didn't think about him before? And it started like that. And just the
10:21only thing I want to make sure is he's American. He was going to play a very specific British
10:27character. And he's such an amazing actor. And he pulled it off with a precise accent.
10:35And actually, it's very subtle maybe for American audiences, but how he swifts his accent according
10:44to each one of the situations. He's incredible. And Sacha Baron Cohen as well. What made you think
10:50of him for that role? Well, Sacha I know throughout the years, and we have always talked about working
10:56together. And for a long time, we've been bouncing back and forth ideas, but all of them were
11:03comedies. So when I sent him this, he was like, well, I'm a bit like daunted because this is not
11:11what I do. But I have seen his work, not only his comedy, but I have seen this show that he plays
11:28a spy. And he was terrific. And you can see when he plays all his different characters,
11:37that he has an amazing skill. So we spoke about this and I think he was amazingly perfect for the
11:45role. So all three of these actors sort of seem like they, it's interesting to see them in one
11:51project together. How did their approaches vary? Were they, did they approach the work differently?
11:57And did you have to adapt to their different styles? Well, like any other actor, everybody's
12:02a different person. So yes, you have to, I think that the most important job as a director is to
12:09understand each one of these actors and their approaches and their needs and their concerns.
12:17Each one is very different. You know, it's, Kate is a person who does very, very, dives very
12:27deep into preparing the role and getting into every single detail of every single thing.
12:36Her screenplay is something, it's amazing. It's like those manuscripts of Dostoyevsky that are
12:43like arrows over notes and notes and tiny, even smaller notes with smaller arrows going everywhere
12:50in the page. Well, Kate's screenplay is like that, you know, and full of suggestions of choices to
12:59make and stuff. Kevin is a more receptive actor. He's always, he is really, really, really concerned
13:08about what the director wants. And based upon that, then he starts shaping his part. Sasha is
13:17way more instinctive. You know, sometimes it's a spur of the moment. And part of the thing that was
13:24challenging for Sasha is that he's so used to just improvise. And here he felt at the beginning,
13:30very restrained, and he found a way of how to flow with the whole character. He did a lot of
13:36research because this, he's, the social group, because particularly we're talking about the
13:43British society that is very stratified in terms of class. And this was a very specific,
13:50a very specific social class. And so he started hanging out with this, with crowds of that
13:57social class. So he could start absorbing mannerisms and expressions together with the accent.
14:07I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about your use of voiceover in this show because it
14:11feels very purposeful. And how did you kind of approach, for example, you know, second person,
14:17first person, how did you kind of figure out how you wanted to use voiceover? I was being fascinated
14:22by that. And I was always curious to see what would happen if in one piece you combine the
14:30different voices. Because each one of those voices lends for a completely different
14:39understanding and approach from this, from part of the audience. You know, you approach
14:45a conversation different according to the voice in which, and the tense in which is narrated to you.
14:54And I was particularly intrigued about the second tense, the second, you know, because it's a,
15:00it's one that it rarely shows in films. Very, very, very rarely. It's the you.
15:08You know, that in Spanish and in French it's called accusativo, accusative. Probably in English
15:14too, no? That it's an accusative voice. Because it's sort of accusing. You know, so it's observing
15:21and telling, you know, describing, but with a, there's a certain authority about that voice.
15:30I have only seen before probably one film that was of the 70s, a French film called
15:36A Man Sleeps, a screenplay of Perek, the French novelist. And it was called A Man That Sleeps.
15:47That the whole film is a second person narrative. And I was very intrigued how those three voices
15:55would combine together with another narrative that is the narrative that takes place in the book.
16:03And how all of those narratives were going to affect how audiences approach the narrative.
16:12Again, how the audience's narrative is as important or more important than any of the
16:19other narratives. What about the cinematography? How did you approach that in this as well?
16:26And you're also dealing with some time, going back and forwards in time as well.
16:34When I had this approach of the different narratives and the different voices
16:39with the voiceover, I was discussing this with my other collaborator that starts since very early,
16:46since the moment I conceived the story, I involved Emanuel Lubezki Chivo.
16:53And when we were talking about this, I was talking about how I wanted each one of those narratives
17:00to have a distinctive, not only style, but cinematic language. And it was Chivo's idea,
17:09why don't we use two cinematographers? Because then the voices are going to be even more
17:16distinctive one from the other. And immediately, the two of us, we thought of Bruno del Bonel,
17:22that we deeply admire as cinematographer, as a person. And so it started the collaboration
17:30between the three of us. And it was really amazing to see these two cinematographers
17:38that maybe are two of the best right now, so generous with each other and collaborating with
17:46each other. Because even though their work had to be completely different,
17:53they had to have a continuity of, say, weather conditions that we were going to portray.
18:01Or knowing that there are many moments in the show in which it's overcast and suddenly the sun
18:10comes out and you go from one scene to the other. And everything has to be in sync to keep the
18:17temporal continuity, even if you're in two completely different narratives. And it was
18:24amazing. I mean, I'm so lucky that I work with two of the best and I'm very grateful with the result.
18:33Do you do a lot of storyboarding? How do you approach it?
18:38I do storyboarding in certain scenes,
18:43very specific scenes where there are many elements at play, that storyboarding is not,
18:53are not great only to organize your shoot and to make sure that you have your pieces.
19:04But I think that storyboarding can be a very helpful tool to convey the information to the
19:09different departments because they know specifically what they need. In this
19:19in this specific one, I storyboarded only one main scene that you have. You're going to get
19:27into that very soon. But pretty much only that. Because the other one was about
19:36a whole journey of discovery with the actors. Each one of those scenes of Kate going and
19:44trying to dispose of the book. It was a work with Kate and the actors about staging the whole thing.
19:53How to better utilize the space to convey the emotions. And how that was going to be the
20:02dance with the camera. So with those scenes with the actors, I like to find the scene with the
20:10actors. Is that partly why you like long takes? Do you sort of like?
20:15Well, depending because only one storyline that is the Kate, the Katherine storyline
20:22utilizes long takes. At most, the other ones, they have different language. The first person
20:30that is Kevin Klein's narrative, Stephen, is very personal. And so is a lot of details.
20:37You know, it's a lot of cuts, a lot of details. And I haven't done that in ages. This whole thing
20:44of doing a lot of cuts and stuff. And it's fantastic. And in the cutting room is so much fun.
20:52I have to say that I feel more at ease and more organic when I'm doing long takes.
20:57Because I like the process of it. I like, first of all, to be on your toes. Because you don't
21:02have a safety net. But you're on your toes not only by yourself. You're on your toes with the
21:08actors. Because they also know that they are very exposed. And then it's how the rhythm,
21:17the rhythm, what would be the editor in those scenes becomes the performance. And the actors,
21:25they have to carry that rhythm. And it's this work between the actor, the cinematographer,
21:32and the director to kind of make all the pieces work. And I enjoy that. And I enjoy that
21:40actors can drift so only they can allow mistakes to happen. That sometimes those mistakes are the
21:49miracles of one scene. At Venice, this show and films like Queer and Baby Girl were sort of
21:56held up as an example of more erotic content coming into the mainstream. I wonder, do you
22:02think that there is a change at all? Is there kind of a greater openness to content that,
22:08not that this show is erotic, but that it has sexual content? No, there's a different sexual
22:14element in this show. But it has a great relevance. It's not, you know, as you're talking
22:28about erotic, it can be as part of, you know, eroticism in cinema has always existed. And as
22:40long as it's part of the thematic elements, it's a part of a very specific narrative. Then it can
22:48be just gratuitous, just like sex that can be enjoyable and fun, but it's not relevant.
23:00I guess that the interesting thing about what you're mentioning is that I've seen interviews
23:06in the 60s that they ask the same question. You know, if now we're ready for eroticism,
23:18when we have amazing, amazing works that deal with eroticism since silent cinema.
23:28You know, you have films from taboo or a desire in the silent era that they were already
23:39dealing with erotism in those ones in a more subtle way. Then there are films later on by
23:46John Gennett that they are exploring a way more frank way and so on throughout the history of
23:54cinema. I think that eroticism is part of humanity and as long as it's used to convey
24:02that human experience, I think it should be just embraced as such. Then the other stuff about if
24:11it's just for entertainment, that's a different discussion, you know. And I think it should fall
24:18onto the spectator to choose what they prefer not to see or what they see.
24:25Having done long form content now, are you hoping to continue working in this space or are you
24:31thinking that you'd like to return to sort of a narrative feature length for your next project?
24:38Look, I don't know how to do television per se. When I decided to do this, I announced to Apple
24:47that they've been incredible partners. I said, I don't know how to do television for me. For me,
24:53it's a bit too late in the game to start learning. So if I do this, I would approach it as the way
24:59that I do a film. For me, this is, and we kept on calling with Kate and with my collaborators,
25:05it's a film and this is just a, well, it ended up being like five and a half hour film.
25:14And Apple said, yes, go for it. My miscalculation is that
25:20it took a long time to shoot. I'm not particularly the fastest shooter in the world
25:27when I do my films. And this was five and a half hours. So it took a while. It was a long process
25:37that it was, there was a point, it was also a COVID restrictions were part of the situation and
25:45COVID cases happen and sliding the whole, you know, making the schedule more difficult.
25:50So I think it was draining for everyone, but I felt for the actors because they have to
25:57live with these characters for so long while, you know, not being able to jump into some of
26:04the other projects and so. So probably I will. I just know that now I would love to do
26:13some 90 minutes kind of film. Well, Alfonso, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
26:18Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you so much.