Director Mike Leigh, along with actors Marianne Jean-Baptiste, Michele Austin & David Webber from "Hard Truths" sit down at the Variety Studio at TIFF.
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00:00What's resonating with you and what resonates with a lot of people
00:03is the fact that we are so used to seeing films with black families.
00:08There's trauma, there's miscarriages of justice,
00:12there's all sort of that sort of triggering stuff that we see.
00:16And this film basically, it's just about a family experiencing stuff.
00:30Hello everyone, Hard Truths team.
00:34I am a huge fan of the film and can't wait for the world to discover it tonight
00:39at the festival here at Toronto.
00:42My first question is for you, Mr. Lee.
00:44It's your 15th movie.
00:46I think you're getting really good at this now.
00:49It's resulted in seven Oscar nominations during your career.
00:53So what does this film say to you as a director
00:57that differs from your other movies that you've taken on before?
01:01That's a hard question.
01:02They're all different.
01:04I mean, what I've tried to do in all my movies
01:08is to look at different sort of people in different pockets of life.
01:12And here I've looked at this particular area of human experience
01:16and let's hope the world relates to it.
01:22Ms. Jean-Baptiste, loved you for about almost 30 years now
01:28because of Secrets and Lies.
01:31And I was watching this and wondering to myself,
01:36why are you not in every movie when I turn on the television
01:41or when I'm going to the cinema?
01:43Because what you do here is quite remarkable.
01:46Have you found it hard to navigate Hollywood
01:50since your Oscar nomination then?
01:52Or have you taken on roles that you've wanted?
01:56I think it's been a bit of both.
01:57It's being in a world I didn't understand
02:00because obviously coming from England, it's a very different system.
02:04So I think one does jobs for different reasons.
02:08Do you know what I mean?
02:08You get different things from it.
02:10Sometimes it's a roof.
02:11You know, sometimes it's because you like a particular director.
02:15But I'd say in the last sort of like 10 years,
02:20it's been sort of very much geared towards
02:23what's going to challenge me, what's interesting,
02:25what haven't I done before, you know?
02:28So it's kind of evolved.
02:32Michelle Austin, I wasn't as familiar with your work before this,
02:37but I'm so glad I know now.
02:39I remember you in another year with Mike
02:42and you and what I consider to be my favourite moment of the movie
02:48is the film's poster when you're hugging your sister at the gravesite.
02:54How did you prepare for this role?
02:56And what did you learn from Mike Lee
03:00that you haven't learned from other directors yet since working on this?
03:04Oh, I'm going to answer your question in sort of different parts and different...
03:08I'm going to say that I was really lucky to meet Mike really early on in my career
03:15because working with him has kind of stood me in great stead
03:18for working with other directors
03:20because building the characters in the way that you do
03:25has kind of informed lots of the other work that I've done.
03:29So yeah, it's going into that detail,
03:34basing characters on real people,
03:36coming from a place of truth has been a gift really.
03:42In terms of preparing for this, it hasn't been...
03:44It's not different.
03:45We all prepare in exactly the same way.
03:48Our characters are based on people that we know or have met
03:53or they're an amalgamation of those people
03:56and we all go through exactly the same process.
04:00I mean, I know people do get quite hung up on Mike's process.
04:07It's quite hard to come up with quick, pithy...
04:14Ways of describing it.
04:15Yeah, really.
04:17But just to say that these people come from a place of truth, you know,
04:22and that's really important to the work
04:26and I think that's why the film works
04:29and I think that Hard Truths especially will touch a lot of people
04:35because I'm not sure that...
04:38I'm not sure how many people have seen
04:42this kind of family portrayed in the cinema before
04:47and that's really exciting,
04:50especially now that the trailer's out there in the world
04:54and already getting reaction from friends and family
04:57or just, you know, people out there
05:00who sort of all can't wait to see it and experience it.
05:04It's very exciting.
05:07Of course, you mustn't forget that actually this is the third time
05:10that Marianne and Michel have collaborated with me
05:15and the second time they played sisters.
05:18They did sisters together very early on,
05:20which is what Michel referred to over 30 years ago in a play, stage play,
05:25but of course, Michel was Hortense's best friend in Secrets and Lies as well,
05:31so you have seen her before.
05:34I'm never going to forget her now because of it,
05:36so thank you so much for working with everyone here.
05:41David, I looked at your resume,
05:45you worked with some pretty big directors, Paul Greengrass, Ronnie Yu, Richard Eyre.
05:50How does Mike Lee differ from those directors
05:53and my question for you,
05:55you also have showed me how to take a lashing from your wife in a movie
06:03and just be able to just sit silent and let her, you know, get her frustration out.
06:07You do so much without saying a lot in this.
06:10Can you talk about just being able to listen and endure your character?
06:15Okay, well, those directors that you mentioned are all very different,
06:21although Paul Greengrass does use a lot of improvisation,
06:27but again, the improvisation, his way of working is still different,
06:33but the attention to the sort of history of the character, I think, is key.
06:41When you asked how people prepared, we basically, you know, in our preparation,
06:48we worked together for a few months and in that few months,
06:51we went through maybe 30, 35 years of history,
06:56so when you say, you know, that Kirtley, my character, was enduring,
07:02that this is based on their life up until then and it had led to that point,
07:06because we prepared for the time before and there were times,
07:11not wanting to give things away,
07:12but there were times when Kirtley couldn't speak
07:17which, for me, took a lot of confidence,
07:21because generally, there's an actor in your head,
07:25especially when improvisation is going on,
07:27there's that thing saying, if you're not speaking and you're going,
07:30speak, speak, say something, say something, say something,
07:33but I knew that was not necessary.
07:37Some people don't.
07:38Yeah, so exactly, but normally, there's a tendency to come up with something.
07:43And actually, what I really enjoyed when it was, looking back especially,
07:48was when you realise, you know, that he can't speak,
07:53he can't speak and just letting that go
07:55and it's difficult for an actor not to come up with something,
07:58when actually, that is a thing as well,
08:00that's also a thing to come up with,
08:01rather than thinking, fill the space, do something,
08:04because with the history of Kirtley,
08:08he's gone through a lot of things in his life,
08:10I think he was married a long time,
08:12to Pansy and by this point, that you meet him,
08:16there are times when he doesn't speak,
08:19because he knows he's not going to win or it's not going to work
08:22and there's one particular time, a couple of times,
08:25when he actually can't, because he feels so betrayed
08:29and he literally can't and that was very painful at the time,
08:35but very powerful.
08:38And of course, what's important is that these guys are character actors,
08:42they're not actors that just play themselves,
08:44they are consummate character actors
08:47and of course, what David's talking about is,
08:52whilst that actor in his head is saying,
08:54I'm an actor, maybe I should be talking,
08:56the character, which is very solid,
08:58because we work very intensively on the building of the characters
09:03and the characterisation, the way the actor plays the character,
09:07the character is doing the work
09:09and therefore, he doesn't talk,
09:10because he wouldn't, for all the psychological and emotional reasons
09:15that he can't or doesn't or won't and all of that,
09:19but the character is doing the work.
09:21In a way, you could say the character is taking over from the actor,
09:24because it's such a solid piece of characterisation,
09:27which is why somebody as humorous and generous as Marianne
09:32can play Pansy, who is less humorous,
09:35although she's quite humorous in a way
09:38and certainly less charming than Marianne.
09:41You actually gave me a great segue into the next question.
09:49What I love so much about this script,
09:51and I've been very weary of saying this,
09:53but I think it's the best script that you've ever written,
09:58it's the diversity I talk about a lot in Hollywood that I want to see.
10:01Here's a black family, it's not part of the story,
10:04they happen to be black,
10:06and you're able to articulate feelings of black culture
10:11without having to call it out and be specific about it.
10:14Was that your intention?
10:17Absolutely.
10:18Please talk to that, speak to that.
10:20You want to comment on that?
10:21I mean, I think what's resonating with you
10:27and what resonates with a lot of people
10:30is the fact that we are so used to seeing films with black families,
10:34there's trauma, there's miscarriages of justice,
10:38there's all that sort of triggering stuff that we see,
10:42and this film, basically, it's just about a family experiencing stuff.
10:48Do you know what I mean?
10:49And it's so rare, sadly, for us to be seen like that.
10:56Yeah, yeah, definitely.
10:57So I think that, you know,
11:00being able to work like this as a black cast was just a gift, you know?
11:07And also what I think resonates also for the people who have seen it,
11:15or even just seen the trailer,
11:16is that they recognise the family and the people and their homes
11:22and the way that these people speak to each other,
11:26because we know that is our families.
11:28And like Marianne said, you know,
11:30we are so used to seeing black families going through trauma on screen.
11:38That's all being in an issue-based thing.
11:42Yeah.
11:42Whereas we know, we go through life worrying about all the same things
11:46that everybody else worries about,
11:48and having the same experiences.
11:49Am I, you know, can I pay the bills?
11:52You know, am I going to get my kid into the right school?
11:55You know, what am I doing to...
11:56You know, all of the things.
11:59And it's really important.
12:01That's not to say that this is not a dramatic film.
12:03Of course it's a dramatic film, you know.
12:06And things happen, and it's difficult.
12:08There are some, it's really difficult to watch.
12:11But it's about the people and the family and, you know,
12:16and the love or the lack of it, or, you know.
12:19And, you know, I'm so thrilled to be a part of it.
12:24I'm so excited for people to share it.
12:27I really am.
12:28Yeah, I think it's definitely, I feel that.
12:31I feel incredibly proud of everyone in this film,
12:37in front of the camera and behind the camera.
12:39It was an incredible experience.
12:41And people always say that, but this really was.
12:44I felt like the whole team was completely involved.
12:47And in terms of being about black people,
12:51it is because we are black.
12:52And there are things that, lots and lots of things
12:55that inform who we are and how we are.
12:58That's where it lies, rather than being overtly explaining.
13:01But we know what was in our cupboards.
13:03We were really, we knew exactly what products were there.
13:06And it was specific to us.
13:07We know it was in our refrigerator.
13:08Things on a cultural basis.
13:10And we brought that cultural thing to that.
13:13But then it wasn't about that, which was, you know,
13:15which I think was the beauty that we could just be,
13:17which was, you know, we didn't feel like
13:20it's representing, we're just being.
13:21Yeah.
13:25Ms. Jean-Baptiste, I have a question for you.
13:27As I was finding myself writing about this movie,
13:29I said, I've been writing,
13:31you go through what I call a linear induction of emotions.
13:34You go from like zero to 60 in 10 seconds flat
13:38in particular scenes.
13:39And I couldn't help but wonder
13:41if you had to take any blood pressure medication
13:44during this movie or like,
13:47cause it looks like it's even physically painful at times
13:50as you go through it.
13:52Again, part of our process working with Mike is
13:56you very clearly have the character,
14:00there's Pansy and there's Marianne.
14:03You have to get very disciplined
14:05about speaking about Pansy in the third person
14:08and not saying, I, I, I, I, I.
14:11And then he's very sort of like strict
14:13about coming out of character.
14:15When they say cut, he says, come out of character.
14:17A couple of times he will scream at me
14:19about three or four times
14:21cause I'll be giving him a dirty look.
14:23But you just start going in and out.
14:26It's a bit nuts actually.
14:27You jump in, you jump out, you jump in, you jump out.
14:30But yeah, it was exhausting, you know,
14:32having to keep that up there the whole time.
14:37And, but, you know, we're very well prepared for it
14:40in the way that we work, in the way that we prepare.
14:43It helps if you're a good actor.
14:46I guess.
14:47Wow.
14:49Yeah.
14:49It's a helpful quality.
14:51Mr. Lee, in 2012 and 2022,
14:54you participated in Sight and Sound,
14:56Greatest Films of All Time poll.
14:58And three movies had overlap in that decade period.
15:03How Do Mosquitoes Operate, Tokyo Story, Barry Lyndon.
15:06I'm sorry.
15:08Oh, I'm sorry.
15:09In 2012.
15:10How Do Mosquitoes Operate, Tokyo Story, Barry Lyndon
15:16and Songs from the Second Floor.
15:17Those were the only overlaps in 2020.
15:20That were in 2012.
15:22So I wanted to ask you,
15:24has there been a movie in the last few years?
15:26Because in 2032, you're going to, I'm sure,
15:29you're going to do it again.
15:30Has there been any recent movies?
15:32I'm going to pass on that question.
15:34Huh?
15:35I'm passing on that question.
15:36You're passing?
15:37Pass.
15:38Okay.
15:38No recent movie you would like to love?
15:41Yeah, I'm passing on the question.
15:42Nope, no problem.
15:43I'm surprised that The Tree of Wooden Clogs
15:45by Olme wasn't on both lists.
15:48Are you sure?
15:48When I looked it up, I didn't see it.
15:50Those are four overlaps.
15:54My next question's for, sorry.
15:58Again, to you, Mr. Lee.
16:00At 81, are you done?
16:04Do you feel like you have a lot more in you?
16:05Do you, are you going to continue to make movies?
16:07No, I'm hoping to make another film.
16:11But don't ask me what it's about.
16:13It depends how much money I get.
16:15And that's a tough one.
16:16Raising money is very, very difficult
16:18when you have no script and you won't discuss casting
16:21and you just say, give us the money
16:23and let's make a film and don't interfere with it.
16:25Which is how my films get made, including this one.
16:31No, I mean, my problem is a physical.
16:33I'm a bit of a cripple these days.
16:36But I'm hoping to overcome that.
16:38And I certainly don't feel like retiring yet.
16:43And nothing about what the next one could be?
16:46Absolutely.
16:46That's what I would ask.
16:47You're joking.
16:50Nice try though.
16:52I figured you might tell me.
16:54For the cast, what have you learned about acting from Mike Lee?
17:01My gosh, I think we were talking about it earlier.
17:05The first job that we did together was a play,
17:10a Mike Lee play back in 93.
17:13And Michelle was saying that it kind of set her up
17:18for how she works.
17:19And it did the same thing with me.
17:21It's just about preparation,
17:24trying to be as organic and authentic as possible
17:28and serve the character.
17:31One of the funniest, I still remember once
17:33when we were doing an improvisation
17:34when we were doing the play.
17:36And we started to, we were laughing.
17:41We weren't supposed to be laughing,
17:42but we were laughing at the improvisation.
17:45And I remember thinking,
17:46I'm in so much trouble now with Mike.
17:49But I remember Mike saying,
17:51it's like, if you're laughing,
17:52it's because you know that it's good.
17:56And I sort of do keep that in the back
17:57of when sometimes when I'm laughing at the work,
17:59because I'm thinking, oh, this is just,
18:00you know, this is just gold.
18:02So I do remember that.
18:04But I think, yeah, I mean,
18:07it's blowing lots of smoke up proverbials,
18:12but like, you know.
18:13Yes.
18:14But I've learned loads from him.
18:17Like, I've learned loads from her.
18:21Yeah.
18:22For me, it was,
18:25the main thing I think is that the trust
18:27and confidence in strong characters,
18:33in the sense of when something is built,
18:36the history of the character I play,
18:40Curtly, in this felt so strong and real to me
18:43that then I felt he could take over
18:46and I could trust that.
18:48And that was a tremendous feeling
18:50to have that trust.
18:51Because sometimes I think in film
18:55and in TV, things can be so rushed
18:58and you get there and one day,
18:59okay, this is going to be your wife.
19:00This is your family and everything you just,
19:02you know, and this was the other way around.
19:05We had such a strong creation
19:07and a concentration on the characters.
19:10So when we're working,
19:11we're working with real people
19:14that your character knows.
19:16And that, then you know that
19:19when you get to that level of reality
19:21in terms of, you know, that it works.
19:24Then you just let that go and it works.
19:26And that's what I learned.
19:27Awesome. Thank you.
19:28And my final question is to you,
19:29Mr. Jean-Baptiste.
19:31The whole cast and you, Mr. Lee,
19:33are obviously awards worthy.
19:35You are sitting with the awards editor for Variety.
19:37But I have to ask you
19:38because I think we're going to be hearing
19:41your name a lot this season.
19:43Worthy of a Best Actress nomination.
19:45If you were nominated,
19:46you would only be the fourth Black actress
19:49to return for another nomination.
19:51I am.
19:52The fourth ever.
19:53And I wanted to know how that would make you feel.
19:56By the way, it's Viola Davis, Octavia Spencer
19:59and Angela Bassett are the other three.
20:01Yeah, yeah.
20:01I mean, it's interesting.
20:03Again, though, what is beautiful
20:06about working in this way
20:08is it's not result based.
20:10It's all about the process.
20:12So I find it very difficult
20:15to even think about that stuff
20:16because I've already won doing that.
20:19Having the courage to be able to
20:23sort of like hand it over
20:24to somebody who you know
20:25is going to look after you,
20:27being brave, you know,
20:29and just working really, really hard.
20:33So that's my answer to that.
20:35I mean, this is probably out of order to say this,
20:39but Marianne was nominated
20:43for Best Supporting Actress
20:45in the Oscars for Secrets and Lies.
20:47She should have won.
20:48She should have won.
20:52And the person who did win
20:54that particular honour
20:58came off having done her interviews backstage,
21:01came back into the auditorium,
21:04walked straight over to Marianne
21:05and said, you should have won this.
21:08That has to be.
21:09Oh, wow.
21:10Yeah, yeah.
21:12It's a good story,
21:14and I kind of agree with it, too.
21:16Thank you very much for taking the time.
21:17At 97 minutes,
21:18thank you for making a movie
21:20that we can just get through and enjoy.
21:22And I can't wait for people to discover it.
21:25Cool.
21:25Congratulations.
21:27Thank you so much.
21:33you