Director Gia Coppola, along with actors Pamela Anderson, Kiernan Shipka, Brenda Song and writer Kate Gersten discuss 'The Last Showgirl' at the Variety Studio at TIFF.
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00:00You know, having nothing to live up to is kind of a good position to be in, you can surprise anybody, even with a full sentence, you're a genius, you know?
00:19Gia, when did you exactly envision Pamela to star as Shelley in this film?
00:27Well, it was funny because I kind of came across a picture of her, I guess you were promoting your documentary, and there was this sort of gut feeling of, well, what about her?
00:41But I haven't, I didn't know too much about you at that time, and then my other cousin, Matt Shire, was like, I know who your Shelley is, it's Pamela, watch her documentary.
00:53And I did, and I was like, you're absolutely right, no one else can be her, I have to go find her.
01:04Yeah, am I allowed to tell this story?
01:06Yeah.
01:07And I submitted the script to her old agent, and it got turned down within an hour, and then I was able to find a way through Brandon, your son, to get her the script.
01:19And then we talked shortly after, you read it really fast, and then you called me right away, and you're like, this is mine, and I was like, of course it is, you don't need to sell yourself to me, I want you to do it.
01:30I've got to do this, are you sure you want me to do this? I've really got to do this.
01:35Yeah, no one else could have played this role but Pamela.
01:40Yeah, and it's funny, Kate, you did not write this role with Pamela in mind, correct?
01:46I wrote it 11 years ago, I didn't have Pamela in mind, and then the first time I heard her read, our first read-through, she just said every single line the way I've always imagined them in my head.
01:59I mean, every single line was exactly the way I'd always heard them, so the alchemy was really on point.
02:07Pamela, after watching Last Showgirl, it's very evident to me that Hollywood has underestimated you for decades.
02:17Well, you know, having nothing to live up to is kind of a good position to be in, you can surprise anybody, even with a full sentence, you're a genius, you know, that's kind of where I am.
02:27But no, it's timing, I just think timing, and having the capacity to focus, and I don't know, it's not just that I was, I underestimated myself too,
02:40and I think that you've got to believe in yourself for others to believe in you, and it just came at the right time, you know, everything just came at the right time,
02:50the stars are really aligned, this feels like such a dream experience, and I watched the movie, I felt like it was a dream, doing the movie, it felt like a dream,
02:59and now it just, it all feels very surreal, like I'm gonna wake up and this isn't really happening, and then I'll be really pissed, because, it's, you know, yeah, I don't know,
03:10I just, I feel so blessed and fortunate that I get this opportunity and chance to kind of have this, you know, life that I thought I could have a long time ago,
03:20and just, you know, things get interrupted, life interrupted, and then, you know, here we go, now it's, now it's here we go time, like I'm really inspired to work,
03:29and to, and this movie was, to see it last night for the first time was really emotional too, and doing it was emotional, so it's been a process, and it's been such a journey,
03:43and I feel like it's just beginning.
03:47Gia, I ask you the same question, or a version of the same question, why do you think Pamela has been underestimated by Hollywood and directors all along, and what does that say about Hollywood?
04:01I feel like, you know, being a beautiful woman, you get typecasted in a way, and I'm so drawn to actors in general that feel like they have to express so much more and have so much more to themselves,
04:18but then get pigeonholed into this kind of typecast, you know, Dave, I think, felt a similar way of just being this kind of action guy, but really wanted to show himself as a more dramatic actor,
04:30and I, I like kind of working with actors that really want that, that chance, because it becomes such a fulfilling collaboration, and yeah, I mean, I think this is what the script talks about so much,
04:51it's just like how women, creative women, mothers, daughters, anyone, it's just that society can pigeonhole you, and yeah, I feel like you're really much more articulate about this.
05:11I think that what you're saying is that we are all put into boxes in order to organize what kind of women we are, and you know, even to relate it back to the movie, it's like sometimes our children put us into these boxes, you're my mother, and you're the queen of my house, or you're the mother queen of me, and the world revolves around me as your child, you know,
05:40and we have so many more aspects to ourselves than anybody ever wants to acknowledge, and it's just very difficult to show that to the world, so when you have that opportunity, you really take it.
06:02Brenda and Kiernan, how, and Pamela, how did you all relate to your respective characters in the film?
06:13I really felt like Jodi was such a dreamer in the same way that Shelly was, and I think that's how I sort of initially found my way into the bond that they shared, and then really the way in is just working with Pam and soaking up all of your beautiful, beautiful energy,
06:37I mean, it's just, it was so, it was amazing to go to work every single day with everyone, because everyone was just so damn good at what they do, but I think I related to her spirit, and her hope, and also this idea that as you get older, there's these little things that sort of dim your light a little bit,
07:03and, you know, I'm 24, and she's 19, and there's certain odd, weird, scary things about being 19 where you just kind of don't exactly know who you are, but you don't know that you don't know who you are, so everything just feels like it's sort of crumbling in on you, and I definitely tried to find my way back into that.
07:24I think she's different from me in many ways, but that universal experience of growing up and understanding the world around you and your frontal lobe literally developing and seeing things in a different kind of way, I definitely relate to.
07:46Yeah, and the thing is, I, like, on the opposite end of the spectrum, I think Marianne is just, really represents the woman who has sort of been beaten down by life, and just, you know, going to work and doing this very glamorous job, but it's her 9 to 5, and I think she's forgotten how wonderful her job can be, and the joy in dancing, and the joy in being in front of a crowd, and, you know, to go back on what Gia was saying before,
08:11like, I wouldn't be sitting here if Gia didn't, like, look past the tropes that people have, or the stereotypes that people pigeonhole me in, and I remember sitting down with Gia and just having the most incredible conversation about just opportunity and wanting more out of life.
08:27We had both just been, we were young, we just, she just had a baby, our kids are the same age, and we were just talking about this crazy phase in your life where you're, you know, the world tells you, follow your dreams, do you, but then also be a mom, do, and you, it's like, what do we do?
08:38And finding that balance, and being able to see that story being sort of told in a different perspective is, really drew me in, and Marianne, I had to, like, sort of dive into this time in my life in my early 20s where I, I think I was just in this cycle of going to set every day, and I was like, Brenda, you are doing what you have dreamed of doing your entire life, but you've forgotten, because it became so monotonous almost, being on a long-running show,
09:05and trying to get to that place where it's like, I automatically drive to stage, like, I get in a car, and I like, I remember the show ending, and for the first few weeks, I would get in a car and start driving to set, like, wait, what am I doing?
09:16Like, and I think that's Marianne, I think she got in a car every day, she would just drive, she would just drive to the Rio.
09:21The film depicts a number of humiliating job experiences, and auditions. I asked the three performers here, what has been your worst experience or audition ever?
09:38Oh my gosh, I want a better, I want, like, a good, nothing, if I'm being honest, nothing jumps to the top of my mind, and I really want, I mean, I've definitely all auditioned.
09:52I feel like, I feel like every audition is like, I think it's like, oh my god, every audition is terrible, I'm never, that's how I feel, so, maybe every audition?
10:00I feel like life is an audition, we're auditioning for everybody, everybody's love and acceptance is a constant thing, isn't it?
10:07Yeah.
10:08Feels like, yeah, sometimes I look at myself, I'm like, what am I auditioning for? Like, oh, I'm smart, I can read, I can do this, I can do that, I can cook, I can have a garden, I'm really cool.
10:17You were the coolest.
10:18So we're all auditioning.
10:19You are.
10:20You're the coolest.
10:22Oh, yeah.
10:25That scene, like, as it opens the film and then sort of closes the film, where this man is just sort of, like, looking through you, and he's like, he doesn't even see you as a performer, as anything other than just some widget that he can either plug into his production or not, and is that something that there is a parallel in Hollywood?
10:48Well, I think, I like the fact that she's not a pushover. I mean, Shelley is very, she has this optimistic look on life, but she also has her boundaries, they're different maybe than other people's, but she, I like that she challenged him in that scene and stood up for herself, because, you know, just, you can't leave that, you can't, like, I feel like you've got to be able to, you know, like, I'm 57 and I'm beautiful, like, I thought that was a real powerful line.
11:14It's like, you know, she's kind of lying her way through, and then it's just like, you know what, screw it, I'm 57 and I'm fucking beautiful. Sorry, beautiful, that's supposed to be the line of the movie.
11:22So, I just, I do feel like it, at the end of the day, that's, you know, you have to have your value, your sense of worth, and it's a crazy business, it's based on, but you don't want to become bitter.
11:37Like, I feel like that's the parallel, too, with Shelley and I, is that, you know, if you're bitter, they win. So, just, you've got to keep up, just keep enjoying it all, the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it, it's a creative process, there's nothing easy about it, and it's, we're blessed to be in it. So, that's how I feel about it, too.
11:57As much as this film looks at ageism, I also see the parallels of how the young are also treated as equally disposable, and you see some of that in Hollywood.
12:11Brenda, you and your partner, Macaulay Culkin, both started out as child actors, and that can be as fraught. Are you able to commiserate with one another about how the industry treats the very young?
12:26You know, for me, we have vastly different experiences as child actors, so, and that's an interesting conversation that we've had, because we, you know, I've been doing it since I was three, and I still love it, something must be wrong with me, but, you know, the thing about it is, I think you just learn to not take anything personally at a young age, because the thing is, at the end of the day, this is just a job.
12:51As with anyone at any job, everyone feels disposable. I think it's just harder to take on, because sometimes it's like, no, you just don't look right, you're not tall enough, and to not take that personally at a young age, I think it's a difficult thing, because you don't understand that, you don't understand this.
13:05And I feel just really lucky, because my experience has been really lovely, because my, you know, the way that my parents treat it, and Kiernan, who also has been doing this since she was six years old, I really, it's a testament to my parents, who this was just an after-school activity until I became an adult, and I think that's what really got me through, and it really was just like me doing, like, a play at school, or, you know, it didn't, it became a career choice until my mom got breast cancer for the first time, and I booked The Suite Life, and also got into college, and I had to sort of choose which sort of direction I wanted to go.
13:34Which sort of direction I want to take, because it could no longer be an after-school activity.
13:38So, I think for me, it never really, that sort of, it never really hit me until I actually became an adult, like how disposable and difficult this actually really is, because my parents sheltered me from it, because this wasn't, it wasn't like a business to them.
13:53And so, I think as an adult, it's harder for me to sort of, you know, handle my emotions, and keep myself in check when it comes to rejection, or, you know, just understanding that, you know, this is, the reason we're all sitting here is because so many visions, and everything sort of has to align for something to work, and to be okay with that, to be accepting of that, and also to honor who you are, and what your strengths are, I think it's been more of a journey as an adult than as a child.
14:18It's very interesting, because I feel like I found my way, and it's, again, it's like, I come at it from a really lucky perspective, because I feel like I found my way into what I wanted to do through just joy.
14:30It was just fun, and then as you get older, you start to figure out how to deal with all the other factors of it, and luckily, you know, I have good surroundings, and great people, and stuff, and my mom's cool.
14:44That always makes a difference, but yes, it is more of a mental trip as an adult than it was as a kid. I mean, surely, there's things that you internalize and have to work out later, you know, but not on skates, but still, it's nice if you can find your way in through just like a childlike sort of joy and love of something.
15:05Final question, the dancing, and Kiernan, you have that one great thing, and Pamela, Brenda, tell me how you all kind of trained and got prepared for doing these like very vulnerable type of dances.
15:23I was really lucky, because Greg Butler, who I worked with on Broadway, came and did some of the choreography, and all of the choreography, right? Yeah, he was fantastic.
15:34Oh, yeah, I mean, like this was, we trained for a very long time, like we just kept on in between scenes, you know, on days off, we were in the studio dancing.
15:45And the other dancers were so helpful on the day as well, incredibly helpful, because I am not a trained dancer, and not anywhere close to it. You can tell there is not a lot of Marianne dancing. Thank you, Gia.
15:56And the thing about it is, you know, we also didn't have a lot of, at least for me, I remember sitting down with Gia, and she's like, so how do you feel about going to Vegas in three weeks? I was like, three weeks? What?
16:09But the thing about it is, being on this set, it was so collaborative, so incredibly safe, and everybody, we could turn at any point, and be like, I need help with this, or can someone help me?
16:20I remember Greg coming in, and just being like, let's go into this room, and let me just walk you through some simple steps to make you feel comfortable, and I mean, that's really all it is.
16:28Like, at the end of the day, we kind of just have to, like, you know, swallow our pride, and like, just do our best, right?
16:36I just want to add that, like, for me, the dancing was such an interesting way for these women to kind of cope with their issues of, like, they seem so kind of lost and free when they get to sort of express themselves in that way.
16:49And then, learning with the actual dancers from Dita Von Teese's show, who I think at some time also worked in Jubilee, they showed us so much of how to orchestrate the costumes.
17:03It was very much another form of choreography, that those costumes are the real pieces from the Jubilee show.
17:10They're real Bob Mackie and Pete Menifee, and they're museum pieces.
17:15They hadn't left the building in 30 years, and just the production value of those pieces is so interesting, and they're really heavy.
17:25And so, it's a whole other craft to see them as actors, doing their lines, knowing their, you know, blocking, and then having to wear these complicated pieces.
17:38And then, you know, the cameras, and like, they're huge, and they're heavy, and so it was a real dance.
17:45And knowing, like, when to take on the bra, or take off the necklace, and the earrings come first, it was a real team effort to try to figure out the rhythm of all that.
17:57But it was super fun, and really interesting to learn the etiquette of what that art form used to be.
18:03And I think it's just, we want to sort of shed light to that art form that really was a special time, and meaningful to those dancers, and took a lot of effort.
18:18And that just doesn't exist anymore, and I think I'm also really drawn to that level of taste in art, and how it shifted from not, you know, having that same kind of level of detail, and of appreciation.
18:38I think there was rules, right? With headdresses, you could only have them on for so many minutes.
18:42Yeah, and then I had to make you wear it for really long, because it's like, we can't keep resetting the cameras.
18:47Yeah, I was like, I'm taking this off.
18:49Massage after or something.
18:51Yeah, every time.
18:52Oh yeah, you had to leave your head.
18:54It was wild.
18:56It's so fun, though, to be able to wear those costumes in the history, and we were all just so enamored with everything. It really was wonderful. It was really a great experience.
19:06I can feel the headdress. Every time you say the headdress, I can really feel my head starting to get heavy.
19:13You all have PTSD from the…
19:15No, good kind.
19:16It's just like, I want to go back to the real right now, kind of.
19:19No, you don't.
19:21I do.
19:23I know. I do, too.
19:25I do, too. It's weird.
19:28That smell lives with me forever.
19:30And that carpet.
19:31The smell, the carpet.
19:34Congratulations.
19:37On that note, shout out to the real.
19:39Shout out to the real.