Islam's Influence on the US _ Centre Stage
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00:00Right here, right now, in front of this live audience,
00:04there's something you want to share with us.
00:05I owe my career and my first Lexus to Ayatollah Khomeini
00:08and the Iranian Revolution.
00:15Taking center stage today is Dr. John Esposito,
00:18distinguished university professor
00:20at Georgetown University.
00:21He's a founding director of the Al-Waleed Center
00:24for Muslim Christian Understanding.
00:26He's also authored over 50 books
00:28on religion, Islam, and Islamophobia.
00:35Good to see you again, Dr. Esposito.
00:37Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
00:39You've been doing this for a while, 40-plus years.
00:42Actually, probably 50, but we don't want to discuss that.
00:45Yeah, let's not go there.
00:46Yeah, go ahead.
00:47You've dedicated your life's work
00:49to promoting the understanding of Islam and Muslims.
00:52You're so passionate about it.
00:53Why? Why have you dedicated all of these years to this work?
00:58That was the question that I asked
00:59when I was in graduate school.
01:00The director of the department said
01:04that I should take a course in Islam.
01:06And I said, why?
01:09I was finishing a PhD, or I thought,
01:12supposed to be in Catholic theology.
01:14But then I became enamored by Hinduism.
01:17So then I was going to do a PhD in Hinduism.
01:19And then he asked me three times to do it.
01:22And I said, why would I do that?
01:24And the reason was, I knew nothing about Islam.
01:26And what I had seen was a movie called The Exodus.
01:31And the person that wrote it was a famous author.
01:33And I thought he was a historian.
01:36And based on that movie, I thought,
01:37why would I want to devote my career and take the course?
01:41What happened was, I agreed to take one course.
01:43I was in a monastery for a number of years.
01:46I wasn't ordained a priest,
01:47but I spent between the ages of 14 and 24
01:52in the Capuchin Franciscans.
01:53I knew Judeo-Christian tradition.
01:56But suddenly, I'm in a course, and I'm suddenly
01:58faced with Islam, which was always in the US.
02:01Courses in Islam were put with Hinduism and Buddhism.
02:04So you had Judeo-Christian and then everything else,
02:06Hinduism, Buddhism.
02:08And I suddenly realized, wait a minute.
02:10This is a religion that recognizes the revelation
02:14and recognizes the prophets of the Old Testament,
02:18and that recognizes the prophecy of Jesus,
02:22not the Son of God, but prophecy,
02:24that venerates Mary and even has a whole chapter
02:27so that Mary actually appears much more in the Quran
02:30than she does in the New Testament.
02:31And I looked at the history, and I thought,
02:35at least we should say academically
02:36that we're looking at a Judeo-Christian Islamic tradition.
02:39And then from there, it just took off.
02:41I mean, there were no jobs.
02:43So my colleagues were all right.
02:44My colleagues literally said to me,
02:46why are you going into that abracadabra field?
02:49And others said, you'll never get a job.
02:51And I was only hired to teach world religions.
02:54And I did not teach Islam until the Iranian Revolution.
02:58I was going to say, so.
02:59I owe my career and my first Lexus to Ayatollah Khomeini
03:02and the Iranian Revolution.
03:04Yeah.
03:04But it's true.
03:05And I think that's the key where my passion came from,
03:09was the key that, whereas Muslims
03:12were in different parts of the world,
03:14they were just seen as Egyptians or Lebanese,
03:17not very visible in the U.S., very few mosques, et cetera.
03:21And yet there was an immediate equation
03:25that this is what their religion's like.
03:27That is the TV every day showing people
03:30shouting death to America.
03:32And you've also spoken about the turning point
03:34in terms of Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilizations,
03:38that really also laid the foundation
03:41for really framing Islam and Muslims as a threat.
03:44I think the significance is as follows.
03:46Some of you know the name Edward Said.
03:48Edward Said, right after the Iranian Revolution,
03:50and most people never saw this,
03:52in a book that he had called Covering Islam,
03:54he talked about, in 1981,
03:57that there was something happening in America
03:59with regard to Islam.
04:01And he talked about it for a while,
04:03a negative aura feeling.
04:05And then he ended by saying,
04:07this isn't what Islam is,
04:10this is the way it's being seen and portrayed,
04:13and this could lead to a clash of civilization.
04:15Okay?
04:17It wasn't until 1993
04:19that Huntington published an article,
04:21Clash of Civilizations.
04:23Everyone attributes that to Huntington,
04:26that he came up with that idea.
04:28It's still pervasive today, isn't it?
04:29That idea that really,
04:31it's really a false dichotomy in a lot of ways.
04:34And, you know, I was reading recently
04:38that really interesting cultural fact.
04:41Every year, American students
04:44walk across their graduation stage
04:46wearing a graduation gown and a cap.
04:48And I was actually reading that roots itself
04:51in Muslim universities in the 9th century,
04:56where Europe's best and brightest
04:59would go to these universities,
05:01and they would want to come back home
05:02and mimic the thobe and the flat cap
05:05symbolized the Quran
05:07as the highest form of knowledge.
05:09Even a tassel would have been the bookmark
05:11in the Quran, you know,
05:13for keeping your place in the Quran.
05:15I mean, the fact that the Islamic intellectual tradition
05:17really influenced something as common
05:21as what American kids wear,
05:24even in Europe,
05:25walk down their graduation stage.
05:26What does that say about Islam's impact
05:29on Western civilization and intellectual thought?
05:32The model for universities, in many ways,
05:34were the early universities in Islam.
05:37The notion of having hostels for students.
05:40As one prominent scholar of Islam said,
05:42during the Dark Ages,
05:43if you were up on another planet
05:45and you looked down,
05:46the West was invisible.
05:48It would have been the Islamic world
05:50that stood out.
05:51And the idea that during that period,
05:53you had a fluorescence
05:55in terms of the areas of philosophy,
05:57medicine, algebra, etc.
06:01And then that was carried over into the West.
06:03And yet, some of that was lost.
06:05So, for example,
06:06I studied Catholic theology in many venues.
06:09Very few people ever talked about
06:11the fact that Thomas Aquinas,
06:12who used to be seen as
06:13the great Catholic theologian,
06:15and his teacher,
06:19were influenced by
06:21what came the philosophical tradition
06:23that then was passed on back
06:25into the West.
06:26The same thing happens when you look at
06:28areas of medicine and science
06:30and technology.
06:31And a lot of that
06:33is just beginning,
06:35I think, at a popular level
06:38to surface right now.
06:40One of your colleagues at Georgetown
06:41actually told me once that
06:43even Thomas Jefferson
06:44was influenced by John Locke,
06:46who was influenced by
06:48the Muslim philosopher Ibn Tufayl.
06:50So, why don't we learn
06:52these things in school?
06:53It's changing now.
06:54But see, in the U.S., for example,
06:56it was typical in universities,
06:57you did not have,
06:58unless they were a religious university,
07:00a religion department.
07:01Now you have them
07:02in different areas.
07:03But how do you get it
07:04into the schools,
07:05the high schools, etc.?
07:07And now, we have a program,
07:09and if you go to our website,
07:11we have a woman
07:13who does these courses
07:14for high school teachers,
07:16and we provide,
07:18we fund it, etc.,
07:20and for other teachers
07:21so that they can go back
07:22into the classroom.
07:23So that now,
07:24when I have students coming in,
07:26unlike 1993, 95, 96,
07:28when I first went to Georgetown,
07:30many of my students
07:31have come across
07:32Islam and Islamic history
07:34in their courses.
07:36Some of them have actually
07:37had a chance to study Arabic,
07:39but it's still not,
07:41you know, a major force.
07:43What about,
07:44in terms of the presence
07:45of Islam in America,
07:47and the impact particularly
07:48of black Muslims
07:49on American culture,
07:50Islam wasn't this thing
07:53that came about
07:54in the 1960s
07:55with immigration.
07:56I mean, it's as American
07:57as the origin story
07:58of America.
07:59That part of American history
08:00is often invisible.
08:03In general,
08:05the approach to talking
08:06about Muslims in America
08:08was always in terms
08:09of when did Muslims
08:10come from overseas
08:12to America,
08:13you know,
08:14and also Arab Christians,
08:16etc.
08:19The whole history
08:20in the past, for example,
08:21that many of the slaves
08:22that came were Muslim,
08:23even if over time
08:25for many of them
08:26they were not able
08:27to keep their faith
08:28and there was an attempt
08:29to kind of convert them.
08:30Much of that is forgotten
08:32so that it's only
08:34in recent years
08:36with the rise
08:37of the nation of Islam
08:39with Muhammad Ali
08:40in terms of an example
08:42that there was more
08:43of a sense,
08:44and we still forget it,
08:45when people talk about
08:46Muslims in America
08:47and their issues,
08:48they forget that almost
08:49one third of the population
08:51in America
08:52are African American
08:54or black.
08:55And they've had profound
08:56impact on culture
08:57in terms of
08:58even something like
08:59blues music,
09:00hip-hop,
09:01you know,
09:02there's a lot of
09:03Muslim undertones
09:04as well in terms of the culture
09:05so I think it's important
09:06to remember that as well.
09:08But I'm bad on hip-hop.
09:10I don't relate to hip-hop.
09:12I've tried.
09:13What about how
09:14geopolitics impacts
09:16the spread of Islamophobia?
09:18You know,
09:19you saw the rise
09:20of Islamophobia
09:21in a lot of ways
09:22after 9-11,
09:23War on Terror,
09:24it was really
09:25a top-down message,
09:26right,
09:27from the U.S. government
09:28really perpetuating
09:29this idea
09:30of the Islamic threat.
09:32But now we live
09:33in a different world
09:34where we just had
09:35China,
09:36you know,
09:37broker a deal
09:38between Saudi and Iran
09:39as the U.S.,
09:40you know,
09:41has pulled out
09:42from Iraq,
09:43pulled out from
09:44Afghanistan.
09:45How has your outreach
09:46changed on the ground
09:47in terms of
09:48how you see things
09:49geopolitically?
09:50Well,
09:51what you see
09:52that really is depressing
09:53is that
09:54on the one hand
09:55things have gotten better
09:56in terms of
09:57percentages of
09:58Americans
09:59and
10:00in some other countries too,
10:02but certainly in America.
10:04Understanding Islam,
10:05but still
10:06a significant minority
10:07don't.
10:08I think that
10:09the globalization
10:11of Islamophobia
10:12has been missed
10:14in the sense that
10:16in fact,
10:17Islamophobia has grown
10:18in Europe
10:19in countries like
10:20Austria,
10:21in the U.K.,
10:22in Germany
10:23and it grows
10:24for countries where
10:25they don't have
10:26many Muslims.
10:27I mean,
10:28I've literally
10:29been at conferences
10:30or run a conference
10:31where somebody will
10:32get up and say
10:33who's from Poland
10:34for example,
10:35will say
10:36the good news is
10:37we don't have
10:38many Muslims.
10:39The bad news is
10:40we have Islamophobia.
10:41A prominent
10:42Australian professor
10:43said the same thing,
10:44but now
10:45the globalization
10:46spills over,
10:47you know,
10:49the first time
10:50in America
10:51that dealt with
10:52Islamophobia
10:53was in 2010
10:54when you had
10:55the front cover
10:56of Time Magazine
10:57saying
10:58is America
10:59Islamophobic?
11:00What I realized
11:01about eight years ago
11:02is that this wasn't
11:03going away.
11:04Things weren't
11:05getting better.
11:06You know,
11:07things were
11:08getting worse.
11:09What about
11:10the U.S.
11:11political environment?
11:12So during
11:13the Trump years
11:14you literally
11:15had the fringe
11:16of the Islamophobia
11:17cottage industry
11:18What's the shift
11:19from Biden now?
11:20Because obviously
11:21the rhetoric has changed
11:22but
11:23what about
11:24the policies?
11:25When you look at
11:26the policies of the
11:27Biden-Blinken
11:28administration
11:29I mean sadly
11:30sad to say
11:31from my point of view
11:32there's no significant
11:33difference when it
11:34comes to their approach
11:35to the Middle East
11:36or to the Muslim world.
11:37There has been
11:38you know
11:39the naming
11:40of a
11:41senior person
11:42in government
11:43Rashad Hussein
11:44but basically
11:45you do not see
11:46in their policies
11:47the statements that
11:48are made
11:49There's no
11:50significant shift.
11:51You advised
11:52Biden
11:53didn't you?
11:54I advised him
11:55after 9-11
11:56when he was
11:57chair of the
11:58foreign relations
11:59committee.
12:00What you discovered
12:01with Biden
12:02and it wasn't unusual
12:03after 9-11
12:04a number of
12:05senators
12:06or former senators
12:07asked me to do
12:08some talks
12:09for senators
12:10and stuff
12:11and what you discovered
12:12and it was natural
12:13in those days
12:14the Middle East
12:15was not taken
12:16and so
12:17most senators
12:18or congress people
12:19had somebody
12:20on their staff
12:21that handled
12:22the Middle East
12:23so they would
12:24then just rely
12:25on that person
12:26who would then
12:27write a report
12:28for them
12:29and so when I met
12:30with President Biden
12:31he was open
12:32to wanting
12:33to understand this
12:34but you could see
12:35that
12:36you know
12:37he's an expert
12:38on Europe
12:39as he said
12:40and particularly
12:41on France
12:42and this wasn't
12:43part of
12:44what he was
12:45you know
12:46the briefings
12:47that I gave
12:48and Kerry's
12:49very brilliant guy
12:50but there was
12:51no sense of that
12:52and all of that
12:53shifted significantly
12:54really after 9-11
12:55but that set
12:56the stage
12:57for the problem
12:58that we had
12:59you know
13:00President Bush
13:01made some
13:02you know
13:03went to a mosque
13:04and made
13:05a very nice statement
13:06on the other hand
13:07we invaded Iraq
13:08and basically said
13:09you know
13:10it was to liberate
13:11and we occupy
13:12I'm wondering
13:13you
13:14have studied Islam
13:15for years
13:16you've taught it
13:17for years
13:18you have books
13:19literally called
13:20How to Understand
13:21Islam and Muslims
13:22I'm paraphrasing now
13:23what's something
13:24that you still don't understand
13:25about Islam and Muslims?
13:26I come from
13:27a Catholic background
13:28I'm Italian American
13:32My identity
13:33if threatened
13:34I respond to
13:35ok?
13:36Many Muslims do
13:37many don't
13:38because they're just
13:39too busy
13:40they don't take any
13:41interest
13:42etc
13:43and yet they get
13:44concerned
13:45or upset
13:46what's happening
13:47around them
13:48and so for me
13:49it's really
13:50you know
13:51the idea that
13:52at times
13:53frustration
13:54why
13:55why aren't there
13:56more people
13:57who are going
13:58out of their way
13:59whether they're
14:00young or older
14:01it's not that
14:02there aren't
14:03a lot of people
14:04who do this
14:05but there's
14:06a significant
14:07number
14:08that don't
14:09and be involved
14:10in it
14:11I have to ask you
14:12we should have never
14:13had breakfast together
14:14exactly
14:15and I'm wondering
14:17right here
14:18right now
14:19in front of this
14:20live audience
14:22is there something
14:23you want to share with us?
14:24Yeah
14:25I was telling her
14:26I'll explain it to you
14:27I was invited
14:28to do
14:29to a program
14:30in the UAE
14:31with some
14:32representatives
14:33of the British government
14:34and Muslims
14:35older
14:36younger
14:37government types
14:38it was a closed session
14:39off the record
14:40we all know
14:41it's not off the record
14:42and
14:43I had given a speech
14:44I was tired
14:45and the last panel
14:46um
14:47they asked me
14:48um
14:49to give another speech
14:50and I was the last speaker
14:51and I decided
14:52I didn't want to do that
14:53so what I did say is
14:54I looked into the audience's eyes
14:55and I said
14:56I know
14:57there's a lot of questions
14:58about me
14:59in terms of my identity
15:00the question is
15:01the identity
15:02is that for many years
15:03people
15:04have said that
15:05I'm going to come out
15:06of the closet
15:07at some point
15:08and say that I've been
15:09a Muslim all along
15:10and my critics will often say
15:11you know
15:12if he writes like this
15:13and so what I said is
15:14I think
15:15I'm going to address the issue
15:16I know that
15:17you'll keep it
15:18in this room
15:19and so I looked very serious
15:20and I looked down
15:21for a while
15:22and I said
15:23um
15:24I do dye my hair
15:25ok
15:26and after it
15:27the younger Muslims
15:28came up
15:29and said
15:30they were sitting
15:31next to older Muslims
15:32that were going
15:33mashallah
15:34mashallah
15:35you know
15:36I've had that
15:37you know
15:38I check into a hotel
15:40lecture
15:41and after it
15:42somebody says to me
15:43you know
15:44there's a rumor
15:45coming out of Canada
15:46I said let me guess
15:47so yes
15:48how did you feel
15:49about that rumor
15:50I feel privileged
15:51that they say that
15:52I mean
15:53to me it says
15:54at a certain level
15:55that it says
15:56that some people
15:57think that I
15:58understand Islam
15:59you have street cred
16:00and that you know
16:01and that the people
16:02that don't like it
16:03they're the ones
16:04that say you know
16:05when they say
16:06coming out of the closet
16:07it's the people
16:08that want to say
16:09one last question
16:10on a serious note
16:11as someone who has
16:12immersed himself
16:13into the study of religion
16:15spirituality
16:18we didn't get
16:19to really go too deep
16:20into your own
16:21background
16:23but I'm wondering
16:25what do you think happens
16:26after we die
16:28well I think that the people
16:29that I don't like
16:30go to hell
16:31and I'm worried about people
16:32who
16:33who no longer believe
16:34in hell
16:35because I kind of want to say
16:36you know
16:37what
16:39he's here
16:40you know
16:41I
16:42after we die
16:43I
16:44I mean
16:45I don't
16:46I don't know
16:47I'll probably find out
16:48a lot sooner than you will
16:50but I think that
16:51I think there is an afterlife
16:54I really regret this
16:58I'm the one that cried
16:59at my wedding
17:00when you come out
17:01after a wedding
17:02in a church
17:03it's
17:04you know the groom is there
17:05and then the bride
17:06well my wife
17:07had to greet everybody
17:08because I get emotional
17:09I
17:10think
17:11that there is an afterlife
17:12and I think that
17:13people who
17:14lead a good life
17:16whatever their faith
17:17or no faith
17:19if they lead a good life
17:20and one sometime
17:21can discuss
17:22what does that really mean
17:23I think that
17:26they will be
17:28at peace
17:29and they're
17:30you know
17:31it'll be there
17:32and if I get a chance
17:33some night
17:34I'll appear to you
17:35in the middle of the night
17:36and say
17:37Hi
17:38I'm calling from upstairs
17:39and I just want to tell you
17:40I was right
17:41I was right
17:44Thank you so much