How Director Ava DuVernay Is Remaking Hollywood's Money Model

Forbes

The first Black woman to direct a $100 million-grossing film is shunning the studios and their rules — and turning to philanthropists like Melinda French Gates.  The Hollywood filmmaker is breaking the norm in securing independent financing for her projects. She sat down with ForbesWomen editor Maggie McGrath to talk about how she's finding freedom to make the stories she feels she "needs" to tell.  Read the full story on Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiemcgrath/2024/08/02/ava-duvernay-remakes-hollywoods-money-model/  Subscribe to FORBES: https://www.youtube.com/user/Forbes?sub_confirmation=1  0:00 Introduction 1:19 Ava DuVernay On Her Film 'Origin' And Its Impact Politically 6:51 Ava DuVernay On Access To Movie Theaters/Cinema 11:31 Why Ava Picked Up A Camera At 32 And Made A Pivot 15:26 Life Over 50: How Ava DuVernay's Life Has Changed  18:35 Having A Space To Create: Ava Talks Ownership 20:10 Ava DuVernay Gives Advice   Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:  https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript  Stay Connected Forbes newsletters: https://newsletters.editorial.forbes.com Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes More From Forbes:  http://forbes.com  Forbes covers the intersection of entrepreneurship, wealth, technology, business and lifestyle with a focus on people and success.

Transcript

00:00Ava DuVernay, thank you for sitting down with Forbes for the 50 over 50.

00:12So happy to be here.

00:14You are a director, a writer, a producer, but above all, a storyteller.

00:19And I'd love to ask you, what is the power that you see in storytelling in 2024, in a

00:25moment when society is so divided and fractured?

00:28Well, you know, society is really just the stories that we tell each other about one

00:32another and about ourselves.

00:34That's what history is.

00:35That's what the news is, journalism, our family histories, their stories.

00:43And I think one of the things that I'm really interested in is making sure that different

00:47people are able to tell their stories, be heard, be seen, that we're actually embracing

00:51different perspectives and, you know, allowing society to be built with these pillars that

00:59really move us towards narrative change.

01:01Stories that include and embrace everyone so that there's a sense of belonging, a sense

01:07of togetherness.

01:08And I think the storytelling, you know, socially and culturally has tilted one way for far

01:13too long.

01:14And so it's really just about opening it up and making sure everyone has a say.

01:19Speaking of narrative change, your film Origin is now streaming on Hulu, and you have said

01:25that it was really important to you to produce and release this movie before the 2024 election.

01:32So what impact do you want to have on November?

01:36You know, I won't say that I'm looking to have, you know, an impact in terms of the

01:41outcome of the election.

01:42I just want people to be a lot more rigorous.

01:46I want to see more rigor in our conversations around the things that matter.

01:51I feel a general fatigue.

01:52I feel like people are exhausted with the onslaught of news, with the onslaught of misinformation,

01:58with kind of the tribalism.

01:59You're on this side, I'm on this side.

02:02And it's produced this kind of, I think there's a laziness, sometimes an apathy, folks really

02:11feeling very singular and kind of closed off in the way that they want to think.

02:18And so the goal of the film is to open us up, to expand a little bit, to ask us to look

02:23around, look outside of ourselves and really see what that kind of closing down really

02:31does.

02:32It diminishes us as a culture.

02:34And it is going to affect our decision making as we come to the elections.

02:38So the goal was for the film to just kind of awaken, get us to see one another in a

02:44different way.

02:45And hopefully that contributes to different conversations and more healthy outcomes.

02:48Have you heard from any moviegoers or audience members about how their perspective was changed

02:53after seeing Origin?

02:54A lot of feedback.

02:55I mean, folks, one of the beautiful things about the films that I make, that I love and

02:59that I'm addicted to, is that I feel that they're in conversation with the audience.

03:03The audience is always telling me how they feel about it, either directly afterward or

03:08throughout, through their tears, through their comments, through social media, through people

03:14walking up to me in the airport.

03:15I'm constantly getting feedback on the pictures in ways that some of my other counterparts

03:20who make films don't get to enjoy.

03:23They'll hear, oh, I like the film, but I'm actually hearing people telling me their family

03:27histories, intimate details about how they experienced the movie.

03:33And I'm hearing a lot about people learning new ideas, new ways to define their feelings,

03:42new ways to organize their thoughts around a lot of the challenges we're facing as a

03:46country.

03:47Now, you also self-funded this film.

03:50You raised the $38 million necessary to make it.

03:55And I'm wondering if you could talk about the risks and the rewards of taking this approach

04:00in moviemaking.

04:01Well, I didn't self-fund it.

04:02I wish I had an extra $38 million hanging around.

04:05But I did create the model that allowed us to go to like-minded individuals and philanthropic

04:13organizations and say, hey, let's come together and create a community model to finance this

04:18film as opposed to a studio model to finance the film.

04:22And it was the first time that that had been done with a narrative film.

04:26You'd see that nonprofit organizations had given money and financing to some documentaries.

04:31They call it finishing funds.

04:33There'd never been a film where all of the budget had come from nonprofits, philanthropic

04:39organizations, social impact investment.

04:44And I'm proud of the model that we put together, and it really worked.

04:47Did it allow you any sort of extra creative control or freedom in making the movie compared

04:52to a traditional studio experience?

04:54Yes.

04:55Origin was the most free I've ever been making a project since the early days when I was

04:59making $100,000, $50,000 projects on my own with my own money.

05:05Because once you start to learn how to make films and they become popular, you are in

05:10the studio system, in the streamer system, and they are your partners.

05:13And so it is a kind of collective decision making a lot of times in terms of what the

05:18final film or series will be.

05:21In this, I was really interested in being completely free in the storytelling without

05:27having to kind of take notes from the studio.

05:30I knew what I wanted to say.

05:31It was very important for me to say it on a very specific timeline.

05:35And so these financing partners really gave me that freedom.

05:42They contributed to the film, and then they left me alone.

05:45That's the best kind of financing you can ask for.

05:48But they trusted what we were looking to do, and they believed in the vision of it.

05:52And it created an environment where we shot this film on three continents in 37 days.

05:58It was made by a black woman-owned production company, my studio, Array.

06:03And it spans 400 years.

06:05It covers seven time periods.

06:08To be able to do that independently outside of the studio system is very rare.

06:12So I'm thrilled with the outcome and excited about doing it again.

06:17You will do it again?

06:18I'm addicted.

06:19Yeah, it's addictive.

06:20It's addictive to be free.

06:22It's addictive to work with like-minded people on a project that means something to you.

06:28And so I won't say that every project I do will be like this, but I hope and I pray I

06:35get the chance to do it again.

06:37It's interesting hearing you talk about your message because I've heard you say before

06:40that you care about the craft of moviemaking, but it's important ultimately for people to

06:45hear the story.

06:47It doesn't matter if they're watching it on a plane or on their phone.

06:50Can you talk more about that?

06:52Yeah.

06:53I get some criticism for that.

06:54I don't know why.

06:55I think it comes from ... I grew up in Compton, California, where there is no movie theater

07:00there.

07:01So I really understand what cinema segregation is.

07:03I don't think a lot of people understand that easy access to films is not something that

07:07everyone enjoys.

07:08It's not a privilege that everyone has.

07:10And so to diminish the idea of seeing a foreign film or seeing a film that you can't get your

07:15hands on on a plane or on a laptop or in a community screening projected on a wall,

07:23I have no problems with any of those.

07:25I'm really interested in you having the opportunity to see the story in whatever way it can be

07:30presented to you.

07:31And everyone does not have the good fortune of being able to go to the IMAX on the corner.

07:36And so I think we get into a place where there's a little bit of snobbery about how things

07:41are being seen and it's unfortunate.

07:43But I think overall, most of us are watching films, classic films on a television, classic

07:51films on a laptop, on a DVD, back in the day on a videocassette.

07:56And so for me, the form is not as important as the access.

08:02Do I want it to be seen with my full mix, sound mix and the pristine picture and all

08:07of the things that we've worked so hard to make sure are offered to film lovers?

08:15Absolutely.

08:16But it's not always possible and that's okay.

08:18Now you referenced your early days of filmmaking and the true self-funding, not just the philanthropic

08:24model.

08:25Would you recommend that to burgeoning filmmakers today?

08:28I would.

08:29I would.

08:30And when I started making films, there was not as… didn't have as much access to technology

08:37that makes the process so much easier.

08:40We had to figure out a way to get an avid to edit.

08:44Now you can edit on your laptop.

08:46We had to get really sophisticated cameras and figure out how we could beg, borrow to

08:50get these cameras.

08:52Now by hook or crook, you could make it on your phone.

08:55I've seen some beautiful feature films made on iPhone.

08:58And so there are so many tools, so much technology now that allows people to express themselves

09:05and to embrace the craft of filmmaking.

09:07That's why I really think that we should, you know, kind of take off all of these elitist,

09:11you know, barriers to entry.

09:15The technology is there that allows, you know, anyone to be able to express themselves.

09:21And I think that's something that we should embrace and invite.

09:25Now Melinda Gates was one of your backers on Origin, correct?

09:29She was.

09:30And she recently announced a $1 billion commitment to advancing gender equity.

09:35A number of organizations and individuals were named as part of the beneficiaries and

09:40your name was on her website.

09:42What do you plan to do with her support?

09:44Well, let me just say, I'm not a beneficiary.

09:47I am...

09:48So the announcement, which was, I think, hard for some people to decipher, is I'm one of

09:55a group of women that she chose to give away the money.

10:00So each of these women got a large amount of money, $20 million.

10:05And she said, go give it away and do good.

10:07So you have $20 million to give.

10:09I have $20 million to give.

10:12And it's an extraordinary honor to be entrusted with that.

10:17And so it's the journey of identifying organizations, individuals that are global, that benefit

10:28women and girls and their wellness.

10:30Are you looking within filmmaking and...

10:33All over.

10:34All over.

10:35Yeah.

10:36All over.

10:37That's incredible.

10:38It's a big wide world out there.

10:39So it's going to take some time to really watch and learn and meet and travel and hopefully

10:44do good with what she has really given so many of us the opportunity to share.

10:52What do you think about that model of philanthropy?

10:54I think it's extraordinary.

10:56I mean, there's one thing to say, these are the people that I deem worthy or the places

11:01that I deem worthy.

11:02But then to say, you're interesting, you come from a different background, you may have

11:05different concerns or different interests, or you may see something from a different

11:08way.

11:09You give this piece of it.

11:10I mean, what an extraordinary thing.

11:13So I kind of feel like a kid in the candy store.

11:16There's so many challenges.

11:17There's so many people that need help.

11:19There's so many organizations that are doing good work that just need a bit of a leg up.

11:23There are too many.

11:24And so it will be quite a journey and adventure to try to identify the ones that we might

11:30be able to help.

11:31Now, you famously did not pick up a camera until the age of 32.

11:35And you have said that your story, your career, your journey is as much about race and gender

11:41as it is about age.

11:44I want to ask you about the courage it took to pick up the camera at 32.

11:50Can you take us back?

11:51What were you thinking and feeling at that moment to make that big change?

11:54Yeah, you know, 32, I mean, right now I'm 51, so 32 sounds like a young chickadee.

12:01But at the time, you know, at 32 most people are pretty set in what they're going to do.

12:05They've been doing it for probably about 10 years or so.

12:08And that was the case for me.

12:09I had a very beautiful career as a publicist in the entertainment industry.

12:13I marketed and I publicized and I promoted films and television shows.

12:17And I loved it.

12:18I had always wanted to be around it.

12:20But as I was on these sets, I started to see these guys directing and I was thinking, he

12:24should move the camera.

12:26Why doesn't he tell her this?

12:28If he just, do they see that thread hanging on the thing?

12:32Like I was seeing, I was seeing things and I was starting to think about story.

12:36And I was wishing that I was directing.

12:40One day I thought, well, why don't I try?

12:42And so it was really progressive.

12:44It was really not a decision that I made and I quit my job that day.

12:49One of the things that I tell people when they're looking to make a change or pursue

12:53something new is let it be, do it slowly, slowly, but surely.

12:57It doesn't have to be all one day.

12:58You drop your job and you become the thing.

13:01I was a weekend warrior.

13:02I was writing scripts on weekends.

13:04I was doing things on vacations.

13:06I was taking time, you know, before work, after work to read, to take classes and just

13:11slowly making my way towards the dream until I realized that the making your way towards

13:18it is the dream.

13:19That's the best part is the journey, the steps.

13:22And so I just, I just really had a beautiful time and kind of, you know, becoming a filmmaker

13:28and I don't discount that time.

13:31That time was, was really an extraordinary time when it was all being unveiled and I

13:37was walking towards it.

13:39It sounds like you were a sponge and you really were a student when you were on set in your

13:44prior job.

13:45Do you think that was part of what led to your success was kind of observing as you

13:49went versus the traditional path of going to school or starting when you're 10 years

13:54old with a camera on your shoulder?

13:56Yeah, yeah, I think so.

13:57I mean, I did have the benefit of being on sets and being able to observe filmmakers.

14:01I never saw a woman direct and I only saw one black person direct.

14:09But I think being a crew member, you know, that long scroll of names that you see at

14:14the end of the movie that most people walk out for don't walk out that long list of

14:18people.

14:19I was one of those people.

14:20And, you know, when you are a crew member, you are on sets, you are part of the filmmaking

14:24process.

14:25And so I was observing, I was watching, I was, you know, taking in every day and, and,

14:31and, and trying to kind of put the puzzle pieces together so that when I started to

14:35have my own sets and be the director and leader of my own crews, I felt very comfortable in

14:40that space.

14:41I think that's one of the things you just want to have proximity around whatever you

14:44want to do.

14:45You know, it's, and sometimes it's hard to gain that access, but I think being close

14:50to it, you know, it rubs off on you and it's a, it's a, it's a good entry level way to

14:56make your way towards your dreams.

14:57Just get close to it however you can.

14:59Now, we are here for the 50 over 50.

15:01You mentioned you are 51.

15:02When does this come out?

15:05August 1st.

15:06So you won't have turned.

15:07I'll still be 51.

15:08You'll still be 51 when, when this comes out.

15:12Thank you for knowing that.

15:13I did look up your birthday.

15:14Okay.

15:15We have to confirm that everyone is over 50.

15:17Oh wow.

15:18There are some people who fudge their accomplishments.

15:21Trying to sneak into the 50 over 50?

15:23It's a cool club of people.

15:25You guys are accomplishing a lot.

15:26The reason why I think this is extraordinary is because when I was young, I always wanted

15:30to be in that 30 under 30.

15:32I always wanted to be in it.

15:33I never was.

15:34And I thought, oh, my chance to be in one of those cool things has passed.

15:37But look, look at me now, I'm 50 over 50.

15:41It's fantastic.

15:42It's not too late.

15:43It's not too late.

15:44So I want to ask, is your age an advantage or disadvantage in your line of work?

15:50Oh, that's interesting.

15:52Well, I think it's an advantage because I started late.

15:57So age really didn't play a part in the way that I kind of metabolized or, or, or, you

16:03know, calculated the value of what I was doing.

16:05I mean, I jumped in, you know, a good, you know, seven to eight years behind most of

16:11my counterparts who had either gone to film school as college students or who had picked

16:17up a camera when they were a kid and were always shooting.

16:21So I started late and I never really accepted the fact that that age would hinder me.

16:30When you were in your 20s and 30s, did you ever imagine your career over the age of 50?

16:35I thought I would be a publicist.

16:37I never imagined, just when I said that I got emotional, I never imagined or fathomed

16:42what I'm doing now.

16:43There was no one that I could look to who's doing what I'm doing now and I've only been

16:47making films for 12 years.

16:50There was no black woman filmmaker who had a consistent, successful career who was making

16:58work every year.

17:00There were women who had made films, black women who had made gorgeous, gorgeous films.

17:05And there'd be long stretches of time between when they can get the next film made.

17:08And it was always this uphill battle.

17:11And so I would look at filmmakers, Spike Lee most prominently, who was working in film,

17:18television, music video, commercial, documentary, moving all over the place.

17:22And I thought, could a woman do that, could a black woman do that?

17:26And so I didn't imagine it, not because I didn't see it, it just was never anything

17:33that I thought was even possible.

17:36So my life every day is a marvel to me.

17:42I mean, truly, it's revelatory.

17:45I'm walking around inside of a dream and I know that people are watching me and the hope

17:52is that you're able to, or someone is able to see what I'm doing and feel like, oh yeah,

17:57I can do that in a way that I didn't have.

18:03Now, there were black women who had made incredible films and I stand on their shoulders

18:07and I want to be really clear about that.

18:09But one of the things that, you know, regrettably they didn't have was consistent architecture

18:14of support around them so that they could make what they wanted, how they wanted, when

18:18they wanted and where they wanted.

18:20And blessedly, I get to do that.

18:23You own your production company, you own Array, you own the ground that it lives on, correct?

18:28Yes, yes.

18:29I own the campus.

18:30Can you talk about what that means to you and what that does for your work to have that

18:34ownership?

18:35Yeah, thank you for asking that question.

18:36I think there's something about space and owning the space.

18:39I, you know, always looked at Oprah Winfrey's Harpo Studios, which had a whole city block

18:49in Chicago.

18:50J.J. Abrams has a studio called Bad Robot where he owns his buildings.

18:57Haile Gerima, legendary Ethiopian filmmaker who's my mentor, has a bookstore and cafe

19:02with his editing room in the basement in Washington, D.C. called Sankofa.

19:08And these spaces become what Mr. Gerima calls liberated territory.

19:15These are spaces where you can truly be free, where you do not have to pass through a studio

19:21lot and hope that you're always in the good graces of the corporate entity that allows

19:25you to rent space on their campus.

19:29I have my own campus, and that space is mine, and it is ours, and it is free, and it is

19:36made in our likeness, and it is what we want it to be.

19:39And there's something about making work in a free space like that that I think embeds

19:43itself in the image, in the frames.

19:46And I can't believe that we have this space, and we may not always have it.

19:50We have it now, and we're embracing it, and we're making beautiful things there, and we're

19:55convening people.

19:57We have a theater in the space, so we're showing films, we're sharing films for the community.

20:03It's just, it's kind of, it's a dreamy spot, so I'm really thrilled about it.

20:10What's your advice to women in their 20s and 30s who feel like they either have to rush

20:15to fit in all of their accomplishments because of a clock that's ticking in their head, or

20:20they might feel like it's too late to make a change?

20:23You know, that just makes me sad when you say someone might feel like it's too late

20:26to make a change.

20:28You know, we always hear the adage, it's never too late, but truly it is about your decision.

20:37You decide when it's too late.

20:38You decide when you don't want to try anymore.

20:41You decide when you're going to lean in a little bit.

20:44You decide how you want to be in the world each day when you wake up.

20:48You are the director of your life.

20:50You call action in the morning when you wake up.

20:53You decide.

20:54And so, so many of us, you know, feel like we don't have the privilege of being the captain

21:01of our own destiny.

21:02You know, you might have children, you might have economic or financial constraints, there

21:07might be all kinds of expectations that you feel you can't break through, but no one should

21:12be able to get in here, you know?

21:15And if you can't do it on Tuesday, then maybe you'll do it on Thursday, and if you can't

21:19do it on Thursday, then maybe you'll do it on Sunday, and if you can't walk all the way

21:22across the room, maybe you just take one step, and the next day you take another step.

21:26But you decide how far you can go.

21:28No one else does.

21:30And the more that we realize that, the more you understand that there is no time except

21:35the time that you decide to give yourself.

21:38In 2021, you spoke at the Forbes Power Women's Summit about what it took to make that change,

21:43and you said, quote, you had to ask yourself, can you change your mind about who you are

21:48and what you want to do later in the game?

21:51So now, a few years later, I want to ask you, what have you changed your mind about,

21:55if anything, recently?

21:56I've changed my mind about a lot of things.

21:57I've changed my mind about the way that I want to work within the studio system.

22:04You know, there was a time where I really wanted to be in that world, now I want to

22:07be a little hybrid.

22:08I want to have one foot in, one foot out.

22:10I've changed my mind about the kinds of films that I want to make.

22:14I really am interested now in doing something that's wrapped in a genre, where I want to

22:20do romance, I want to do thriller, I want to do a mystery, and I still want to say something

22:26within those films.

22:27I think all of my films, I'm trying to express something, I'm trying to say something, I'm

22:30trying to kind of be additive to the world, I'm trying to comment on aspects of injustice

22:39that should be corrected and that we should pay attention to, but I'm interested in doing

22:43that inside of genre, where it's kind of, well, that was a love story, but it had this

22:47in it, or it was a thriller, but it was this, imagine a Jason Bourne of justice.

22:53I don't know, maybe it could be, who knows, but just to play with different forms.

23:00And so that's something new, and I think, you know, you surprise yourself when you stay

23:03open and you, you know, will find that almost every day there's a new idea, or you're being

23:09led, or your interests go in a different direction, and not to be afraid of that, to lean into

23:16it.

23:18I think you've shown such drive over the course of your career, and I wonder, where does that

23:22drive come from, do you think?

23:24I don't know, you know, my grandmother always said, if you're bored, you're boring.

23:32Everyone's got a story, there's always something to learn in every moment, you know, I mean,

23:36I just, I feel like there's so, I'm so stimulated by everything that's going on around me in

23:40such a great way.

23:41I mean, life is just a spectacle, I mean, anywhere you look, there's something happening.

23:46How can you not be inspired by that?

23:47How can you not want to be a part of that?

23:49How can you not want to just, you know, wake up and embrace life and see what the day has

23:55for you?

23:56And so, you know, I get to, as an artist, express that through my work, but everyone's

24:01expressing that through their relationships, through their interactions, and I think that

24:06drives me, is what will life have in store for me today, and how can I contribute to

24:12it?

24:14So, that's, my drive really just comes from feeling very much a part of everything that's

24:26going on around me and everyone that's going on around me.

24:28I think our society is structured in a way that makes people feel alone, and that we're

24:35separate, that we're not a part of one another, but we're here, we're sharing space, I'm looking

24:40into your eyes, wherever you come from, we've landed here in this moment somehow, and that's

24:47fascinating to me.

24:49All the people in the world, we landed here today.

24:51Our path led us here.

24:53That is happening around you every single day.

24:56Isn't that enough to be fascinated by?

24:58So, that's what drives me.

25:00Now, you are a changemaker across society, I think is fair to say, and in so many interviews

25:08you do, people ask you for your assessment of progress and diversity in either Hollywood

25:15or society at large.

25:16What do I say?

25:17Well, I think you have said in the more recent interviews that there's been a lot of conversation,

25:22and maybe it's at least good that we're opening these conversations, but I wanted to ask you,

25:26are you tired of being the chief progress report administrator?

25:30I am, I am.

25:33It's exhausting, and you know, I really think that these are questions that people need

25:37to be answering for themselves.

25:39We all are a part of this.

25:42Don't ask me about what progress is being made.

25:44What progress do you feel is being made?

25:46Do you see enough?

25:47Do you see places where we can all improve?

25:50So I mean, everyone has their opinion, but for me, that question is, I think it's the

25:57wrong question.

25:58I don't think it is, are we done yet?

26:01Did we make diversity?

26:02You know what I mean?

26:03I think it is, how do you feel?

26:06Do you feel connected?

26:07Do you feel that everyone is included?

26:10Have we gotten there yet?

26:12How can we all contribute to that?

26:14And what is the part that you play in it?

26:17These are the questions that I'd like to hear more often, that I don't.

26:22You anticipated my next question.

26:24I was going to ask you what you wish people asked you, so I'm going to end with two fun

26:27questions.

26:28Okay.

26:29Because we had another member of the 50 over 50 say there should be a 50 over 50 book club.

26:33So what are you reading right now?

26:35I'm reading a book called The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, which is a book about a woman

26:44that spans her whole life.

26:46And it's really interesting to read this book from this woman and you see her as a teenager

26:51until she's, you know, in her elder years.

26:54And it's fascinating to kind of watch the journey of a woman through her whole life

26:59through this very sassy book with lots of romance and intrigue.

27:07Have you read that book?

27:08I loved that book.

27:09I like that book.

27:10I like to read a lot.

27:12You must read a ton though, don't you?

27:14I do.

27:15How fast do you read?

27:16I read pretty fast, but the problem is I'm reading and I'm thinking, is this a movie?

27:19Could this be a movie?

27:20Would this be in the movie?

27:22You know, almost every conversation I'm having a conversation with someone and I'm thinking,

27:26could you be a movie?

27:29Or I'll be talking to someone and someone will say something interesting and I'll be

27:32in the conversation and all I want to do is take my phone and write down what they said

27:36because people say great lines of dialogue.

27:38And I just want to, sometimes I'll be looking at a person and say, remember that, remember

27:43that.

27:44Just trying to remember the line in my head.

27:45By the time I'm done with the conversation, I've forgotten the line.

27:48But yes, I feel like, you know, there's stories all around us and they just ignite my imagination

27:57all the time.

27:58So I'm always, I don't even have to look for them.

28:00They're just there.

28:01Well, we are better off for you finding them and telling them.

28:05So Ava DuVernay, thank you so much for joining us.

28:07Thank you for having me.

28:08I enjoyed it.

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