Wayanad Tragedy: A Wake Up Call? | NDTV Profit
Is #WayanadTragedy a wake-up call? What critical lessons can we learn?
Amitabh Kant discusses the impacts of climate change, human activity and dangers of ignoring ecological warnings, in a conversation with Tamanna Inamdar. #NDTVProfitLive
Amitabh Kant discusses the impacts of climate change, human activity and dangers of ignoring ecological warnings, in a conversation with Tamanna Inamdar. #NDTVProfitLive
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00:00country, but honestly is something which is
00:03Becoming a problem year after year. I'm referring to the horrific tragedy in Wayanad, Kerala
00:11Number of lives have been lost the tragedy keeps unfolding. The fact is that we've seen
00:17these kind of landslides
00:19flooding
00:20Destruction caused by it in other parts of the country as well, especially hilly areas
00:25We have seen this happening many years in a row as well
00:29Now, Mr. Kant had a piece in a newspaper a column recently and that caught my eye
00:36And which is why I was very keen to speak to you. Thank you so much. Mr
00:39Kant for giving us time on NDTV profit and
00:42I'm actually going to begin with
00:44What you ended your piece with where you say the Wayanad tragedy is a stark reminder of the delicate balance between nature and human
00:52Activity it's something which seems very profound and obvious, but something we seem to be forgetting
00:58I want to understand from your perspective where we have gone wrong
01:07So Tamanna, the challenge is that
01:10Whatever we do
01:12all our activities have to be compatible with sustainability and
01:18what we are witnessing not merely in Wayanad or the Western Ghats or
01:24but even in the Himalayan states of
01:27Uttarakhand, Himachal
01:30Is a reckless construction
01:34what we are seeing is huge amount of
01:38road construction, tunnel construction
01:42Major
01:44projects going on and you know more than that
01:49huge imprint of the human element which is
01:54Impacting the ecology without any scientific study of the carrying capacity of the region. So it's very important
02:02That in all these areas, these are very very sensitive areas
02:08particularly the Western Ghats which figure amongst
02:11one of the eight
02:13biodiversity hotspots in the world
02:16They are
02:17Wayanad for instance has some of the rarest
02:21Natural reserves. It has some of the most beautiful mountains. It has some of the most beautiful
02:31Wildlife parks
02:33But all this and I've lived a very long
02:38Eanings of my life in Kerala and I was the district collector in the neighbouring district of Calicut
02:44and I was a very frequent visitor of to Wayanad and my
02:50Heart really breaks out and I feel very devastated because
02:55Wayanad was actually
02:57Almost close to 85% green dense forest
03:02in
03:031950
03:0485% green dense forest
03:06There has been a 62% decline in green dense forest and that has been replaced by a huge amount of
03:13Plantation crops. So what you've seen in recent times is
03:18Greenery in the form of rubber plantation
03:22Tea plantation and coffee plantation replacing green dense forest
03:27So you've seen a 62% decline and in green dense forest, but in
03:331800% increase in plantation crops now
03:37Plantation crops are not able to keep
03:40the soil firm enough and the soil gets very badly degraded and
03:45Therefore you are seeing major when flash floods happen and you see huge amount of construction taking place
03:51They have very very adverse impact on the region and that is what is happening in Wayanad
03:57but a similar story can you can be seen in exactly the same story of
04:03landslides and flash floods occurring in Uttarakhand and
04:07Himachal as a consequence of our lack of scientific study and our inability to do good scientific
04:15Construction based on carrying capacity of the region. So you're absolutely right. Mr. Kanth. We've seen this in Uttarakhand
04:22We have seen this in Himachal. We have seen this in many other areas of the country
04:26I mean our cities get flooded, but you know, that's a slightly different issue and I'll come to that in a bit
04:31My question is number one who is responsible and I don't mean this from a political blame game kind of
04:39point of view you are someone who's seen the inside of how government many machinery works how it all functions and
04:46The layman thinks oh, it's all corruption people go for permissions. They're given permissions to do whatever they want
04:52There is no ecological survey. Anyone is building just anywhere. We keep using the word rampant
04:58Construction I want to understand how it actually happens
05:02How do we get to a messy state like what we've seen in for example a Wayanad?
05:11So the important thing is that in all these regions the power
05:17to give
05:19clearances for authority to give clearances for construction is vested with the local panchayat and
05:25In some of the other regions, it's vested where there are municipalities they are vested with the municipalities elected municipalities
05:33Now neither the panchayats or the elected municipalities have any knowledge of either the carrying capacity of the region
05:40Or they have any scientific studies available with them
05:43So they go on recklessly giving clearances for all construction all construction wherever required
05:50Anybody seeking permission is giving a construct a construction permit and
05:54Therefore what you are witnessing in some of the most sensitive areas of Uttarakhand what you are seeing in some of the most hilly areas
06:00of Himachal and in Uttarakhand permission being given away
06:04freely to anybody seeking permission without
06:08any form of study of
06:11Carrying capacity. So firstly my belief is that in many of these regions, which are ecologically sensitive
06:17The power and the authority to give construction
06:22Clearances and permits on hilly slopes on very sensitive regions, etc
06:28Well, you know, the degree of slope is more than 20 degrees and in all ecologically sensitive areas
06:35Actually must be taken away
06:37from the panchayats and the municipalities and that clearance should be vested in a
06:44Committee which has the knowledge and the power either the state or the central government which has to click, you know a broader perspective of
06:53You know sustainable development of the region. So firstly take out the
06:59Authority the power to give clearances for construction while and secondly, I think the government of India must commission
07:07a
07:10Carrying capacity study of these regions. Now what Wayanad has seen is that suddenly it became popular for tourism purposes and
07:19What we have seen is a mushrooming of over 400 resorts in the region
07:24Everybody who had resources started constructing a tourism resort in that region now
07:31My I'm totally against any kind of mass tourism in both in the hilly states of India
07:37The more we do this, you know, the mass tourism has huge adverse impact in terms of reckless construction
07:43but it also has a huge impact in terms of
07:47invasion of culture
07:49You know invasion of on local ethos, etc
07:53And I'm a great believer that on all these areas we need to promote
07:58High value tourism so that in these regions we have fewer tourists
08:03But high value tourists and good quality tourists so that the unit value
08:09Realization from tourism in these regions is much higher and we are able to ensure that those the tourists
08:15We get are people who give back to the destination in terms of you know
08:21relishing it in a better manner and
08:24Rather than you know, treating it as a picnic party occasion. Mr. Kanth
08:30Someone listening this might turn around and say but what about the local economy?
08:34What about the kind of jobs tourism provides and how it gives opportunity? Yeah, so
08:41local economy my
08:43so my experience of
08:46Kerala and you know, I took Kerala when I became secretary
08:49I believed that it should be it should not be mass tourism and we took Kerala from a
08:55$20 a night destination to a $500 a night destination
08:58And when you take a destination on a high value growth
09:03up the value chain
09:06You you create many more jobs
09:09So Kerala actually ended up creating many many more jobs in the backwaters of Kerala
09:15By going back to its roots to its traditional architecture its traditional martial art its traditional cultural art forms. So
09:23When you when you are doing sensitive high-value tourism
09:27Your ability to create jobs is much more much greater your ability to earn for the states
09:33Is much more than getting large number of tourists who are paying ten dollars fifteen dollars a night rather than getting
09:40Fewer tourists who are who are capable of paying you five hundred dollars a night
09:45Okay
09:46So we talked about what is the cause and you said rampant?
09:50Permissions given by local bodies is some part of the cause. Let me ask you now about the solution. Mr
09:57Kant because this will keep happening again
10:00Maybe not in by not maybe in some other area. No, so I'm very clear. I'm very clear about that
10:06I'm very clear about this that these
10:09based on the
10:12Gadgil committee report these areas should be declared as ecologically sensitive areas
10:18Not merely in terms of draft notification
10:20but the final notification should be issued that the power to give clearances for construction should be banned and
10:28By the local authorities if any clearance needs to be done given it should be based on scientific studies and should be actually cleared
10:35At the government of India level in these regions. These are very sensitive areas to be left to the local panchayats
10:43So that is in terms of permissions, what about what is already constructed?
10:48Because year after year you're going to have the same problem. There is already rampant and excessive construction, which that
10:56Ecology cannot you know tolerate or carrying capacity as you have mentioned it. How do you reform that?
11:04so
11:06Yeah, so Tamanna to my mind. We need to do a lot of more
11:10Reforestation in these areas. We need to bring in very sustainable
11:16agricultural practices
11:18Because local population will be able to we'll be able to create many more jobs with sustainable agricultural
11:25practices and with reforestation. What we have witnessed in regions like Wayanad is a move away from
11:34Forestation. Now you need to bring back
11:37Green forestation and that can itself be a venue for huge amount of job creation. What you need to do is to bring back
11:46sustainable
11:47agriculture rather than large-scale plantation, which to my mind has a very huge adverse implication on
11:56on the soil culture of the region
11:59Hmm
12:00You think it's time to take a harsh measure and and I'm asking this
12:06You know knowing full well
12:08What the extent of devastation has been but you think it's time to take harsh measures in some of these areas go in and break down
12:15construction, which doesn't meet norms
12:17Where permissions have given incorrectly?
12:20No, I I
12:23No, I'm not talking about I'm talking about being
12:27You know
12:31Taking a very
12:33Long term constructive and a positive approach
12:37for the good of the society and the good of the society is when
12:43development takes place which is compatible with
12:47Sustainability where human development is not in
12:52Compatible with
12:55sustainability you will have very adverse impact in the long term and
12:59therefore my view is
13:02That change of land use should not be permitted
13:06It should be very careful. It's an issue which needs very careful handling
13:12Construction of tunnels in these areas should not be permitted
13:17Construction of roads should be very sensitively handled and all
13:22Construction in this region should be based on carrying capacity
13:26Now whatever construction has earlier taken place, which is illegal
13:31Needs to be take a very hard look needs to be taken at that wherever illegal
13:37Construction has been they take done already states need to take very firm action
13:42But please do not do this construction on the slopes of riverbeds
13:48What is happening in many of these areas is where water bodies are flowing where riverbeds are there
13:53You are doing construction on the riverbed. So you're not allowing the flow of river and
13:58therefore when the anger of
14:02natural gods take place these these
14:05Constructed areas are just getting devastated. So let us not do things which which are
14:12Scientifically not valid and not correct and that will have a very adverse impact
14:17especially in the
14:18Some of the biodiversity hotspots of the country. Just last point. Mr. Kanth because I know you have
14:25You know shortage of time as well. We've talked about hilly areas. We've talked about the devastation in Wayanad
14:30What about our cities? A Mumbai, a Delhi, a
14:35Bengaluru, a Chennai. So cities there's a
14:39Yeah, no, so that's a very important point, you know, because we must understand that 42 of us
14:46cities out of the have been rated amongst the 50
14:50worst polluted cities in the world and Delhi has been rated as the
14:55Worst capital in the world in terms of air quality. Now, obviously there's a collapse on
15:01urban governance. There's a collapse of
15:04Municipal governance and we need to get this act, right?
15:09We need to clean up our cities
15:12Household segregation or waste is not taking place
15:16Municipalities are not collecting waste. They are not
15:20treating the waste properly and
15:23We have good examples of how municipal governance has been reformed in Indore, in Surat, in Mysore
15:29Cities after cities. So we need to really create a huge sense of competition amongst the Indian cities
15:35the top 50 cities and they must become the finest cities of India and if these 50 cities become the
15:42Finest cities of India and are able to clean up air pollution
15:46Then they will have a huge demonstration impact on the other cities of India. So there is a
15:52To my mind one of the biggest challenges for India is to invest its resources on
15:57Good municipal governance, lay focus on governance, lay focus on capacity development
16:03Focus on outcomes and clean up these 50 cities of India. Well, I
16:08Hope there is real action on this because we sometimes
16:12You know it comes and goes in a new cycle frankly and it becomes a headline of that day and of that week
16:18but the extent of
16:20Devastation and the extent of economic hindrance when you don't have cities
16:25When you don't have cities and you don't have regions, which are ecologically sustainable is really something that we can't begin to imagine
16:32Thank you so much. Mr. Amitabh Khan for joining us and giving us your perspective.
16:38Yes, sir
16:40Thank you, thank you
16:42no, my view is that if we are able to improve our 50 of our top cities in terms of
16:48The quality of life and in terms of better municipal governance, we'll add at least 1% more to