Martyn talks all things Scottish football league and the teams heading to Europe with John Grechan and Barry Anderson.
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00:00Hello and welcome to National World Fitla Talk, your nan's favourite football podcast
00:11ten. It's a show where we break down the latest news and results from the Scottish Premiership
00:15and around the SPFL. I'm your host Martin Simpson, joined by my colleagues Barry Anderson
00:21and John Creakin from Edinburgh Evening News. We're going to be looking at the latest results
00:25from the Scottish League Cup, including probably the biggest surprise of the round as Celtie
00:29Hearts beat Hibs. And we're going to be looking at the Scottish football teams will be taking
00:33part in Europe as Rangers Champions League qualifying opponents are confirmed. Everyone
00:38knows Celtie Hearts are definitely a solid lead one team with a lot of decent players.
00:44It wouldn't normally be a huge surprise, I think, to see a team like that upset a Scottish
00:48Premiership side in this competition. It happens quite a lot. But given how convincing Hibs
00:54looked in their first two matches, I think it probably came as a huge surprise. You obviously
00:59saw the game. You were there live. Just just break it down to us. How did the wheels come
01:04off so drastically for David Gray's team?
01:07I think if you look at it, first of all, they did hit the post a couple of times. They also
01:12created loads and loads of chances. But he made six changes to start in 11, which he
01:18probably was trying to say afterwards needed to do. Jordan Smith came in to goal. No problem
01:24there. Joe Bursick was rested with a wee hit problem. Kanae Omegwa in for Obita at
01:29left back. Omegwa is trying to develop that side of his game, play left back as well as
01:36right back. I think the big issue was midfield. You had Luke Amos and Dylan Leavitt and Harry
01:42McCurdy wide, which meant you were missing Joe Newell, Nathan Moriarty-Welch and Josh
01:46Campbell, who I think are three absolute guaranteed starters. So I think you take three guaranteed
01:51starters out of the middle of any team, they're going to suffer for that. McCurdy's still
01:56working his way back. And he's only been there a few weeks now, but Big Marvin Ekpeteta was
02:05missed. Rocky Bashiri went in instead. And Big Marv is just Big Marv. Already, he looks
02:12like that guy that Hibson needed forever. Just a huge, no-nonsense, get the ball away
02:18centre half, which when you're playing, it's quite a narrow pitch at Kelty. It's not really
02:23a day for a lot of fancy stuff. It was just, you know, bang, bang, bang, get the ball in
02:27and try and defend it and try and deal with it. So they probably missed a lot of that.
02:32David Gray, though, was fuming about the goal that they conceded. Just fuming because it's
02:37just, I mean, to paraphrase him, it's just folk not doing their jobs. You switch off
02:44a corner kick, a short corner, and folk just don't do their jobs. And that is, you can
02:49work on things till you're blue in the face, as we've seen with probably about, as I said
02:54to him afterwards, we've had this issue at Hibs for about five managers in six seasons
02:58being unable to defend a set of pieces. But unless players are really sharp, quick, picking
03:03up what they've got to be doing, and just sorting out the problem of who the free runner
03:07is, you're going to suffer. So that, in a nutshell, is where it went wrong. Probably
03:12a whole other bunch of reasons we can explore as well, but that'll do you for starters.
03:18So a worrying lack of depth, essentially, would you say, which isn't the worst thing?
03:25Well, it's not good, but during a transfer window, there's time to sort that out.
03:30I often wonder if at this stage of preseason, well, in the new season, if managers are sometimes
03:39playing guys, not to set them up to fail or anything, but to give a chance, to say, look,
03:44I've given these guys a chance. You see how much the team suffers if we make these changes.
03:52Now, making six changes, even if you're bringing in six really good players, that's going to
03:56upset things anyway, so it's hard for them. But it was noticeable even last Tuesday night
04:01in the win against Queen's Park, that he ended the game by taking Vente off and putting Josh
04:08Campbell up front. And it was almost a look to the director's box, like, just a wee reminder,
04:14I'm now playing a midfielder up front because Dylan Vente is the only striker I've got.
04:20And listen, we all know it. They need a striker. They probably need two strikers, in fact.
04:25They probably want to get two in because they've only got Vente. He's the only fit senior centre-forward
04:31on the books there. Not really hearing that there's anything coming through that's going
04:35to be ready to go in and challenge right away from the development side of it.
04:41So there's definitely interest in Kieran Bowie at Fulham. He's not quite the out-and-out
04:49No. 9, but I think they would take him if they could get him. And there was a deal that
04:54would be done there because he can play across that front three. But it was noticeable that
05:00David Gray dropped the names of Simon Murray and Adam LaFondra into conversation last week
05:07when he was talking about types. He says, well, you can have an Adam LaFondra type,
05:11you know, who's a great penalty box striker. So Hibbs let him go, effectively, in the summer
05:16there. And he said, or you have a Simon Murray who chases everything. So Hibbs missed out
05:20on him to Dundee. So I think we know what they're looking for. The striker, it's not
05:27quite the idea if you get one striker, everything's going to come together, but it will make a
05:31massive difference if you get a couple of extra bodies at the end of the park.
05:39Just on the outlook of the League Cup group now, John, Hibbs potentially could be looking
05:45at finishing second on nine points, assuming they win their last match against Peterhead.
05:52Kelty have the opportunity to finish above them. And historically, nine points might
05:59not be enough to see them through as one of the second place runners up. That would be
06:05pretty disastrous if Hibbs somehow didn't get out of this group, wouldn't it?
06:10Yeah, yes, that would be very disastrous if they didn't get out of this group. David Gray
06:15mentioned it last week as well. He's been on both sides of it. He's been part of a squad
06:19that didn't get out of the groups. And he's seen the experience of what that's like and
06:26how bad it can be. Particularly because it feels like if you win your group and you're
06:32seeded, you're only two games from Hamden then. It feels like, not an easy competition,
06:39but it feels like a fairly gentle warm-up to your season. Go and beat these lower league
06:44teams, the kind of teams you'd probably play in pre-season anyway, and be looking for wins
06:48against. And then you're into the real stuff. Yeah, it would be a disaster if they don't
06:54go through. They could go through and end up unseeded. Again, you draw one of the big
06:58teams and then I suppose everyone's in the same boat at that point. The bigger teams
07:04will be involved in Europe or be knocked out of Europe. But yeah, the first thing's first,
07:09they need to win at the weekend. I think they will. I think you bring players back. I think
07:13they're good enough. They've got enough ability. And they had scored a lot of goals in those
07:19first two games. Whereas on Saturday there, I think Martin Boyle probably can't believe
07:25that he didn't end up with three assists. If you're continually putting the ball across,
07:31continually putting the ball into good areas, and nobody to take the chances.
07:37Any of the teams, none of the results really stood out from the weekend. I don't think
07:43there was too many big shocks, possibly. Actually, to be fair to Ann and Afrino when
07:50it gave fields, that's a really good result for them. But apart from that, nothing really
07:56jumps out. But is there any teams so far in the competition, Barry, that's catching your
08:01eye a little bit? I think Hibbs were looking really good right up until that result. Keltie
08:06Aberdeen have been fine. New manager coming in. Not had a real serious test yet. Although
08:14East Kilbride looked pretty good, I thought, when I saw bits of them. Motherwell seem to
08:21be getting on okay. St Johnston potentially have won both their games, but haven't looked
08:27convincing. What have you thought of the competition so far?
08:32Yeah, I think it's been interesting. I've actually quite liked to look at Airdrie. I
08:36haven't seen all of their games, but the games that I have seen, obviously, they totally
08:41dismantled East Kilbride, beat Dumbarton 4-3 away. I think they, again, under Rhys McCabe,
08:47I think they're going to do quite well this season. I'm quite interested to see how their
08:52season pans out and how they put their team together, because they lost a couple of players.
08:55They lost Callum for Dice, obviously, to Wraith Rovers, which was quite a loss for them defensively.
09:00So I'm keen to see how they plug that. But they've looked comfortable and they always
09:05play good football under Rhys McCabe. So I think they could be one of the teams to
09:10watch in the championship this season. Falkirk have scored some goals as well, which you
09:15would expect after last season, the way they went about their business last season. So
09:19yeah, I think those two are the two teams that I've seen and have stood out for me so far.
09:26Yeah, Airdrie's a really interesting one. I think you're right. Obviously, we're going
09:31to see them against Aberdeen tomorrow night as we record this podcast on Monday.
09:37Again, Airdrie demolished East Kilbride and then they were 3-1 down with roughly about 20 minutes
09:46to go in the match against Dumbarton and managed to turn that into a 4-3 win. Like I said, Aberdeen
09:52have looked fine against Lowland League, admittedly a high-quality Lowland League
09:59opposition in East Kilbride, even if Airdrie did dismantle them. And Queen of the South,
10:05no disrespect to either of these teams, but you would expect Aberdeen to comfortably
10:09get past them. And now for Jimmy Tolene, it looks like a pretty difficult test against Airdrie,
10:17which could potentially leave them in the same position as Hibs if they don't win it,
10:23finishing the group on nine points, which might not in the end be enough to see them
10:28get through, which would be a disastrous start to the season, much like it would for Hibs.
10:35It'll be interesting to see where we end up there. The draw for the Champions League qualifying has
10:42been made. Rangers are going to face either Dynamo Kiev or FK Partizan, known to you and I
10:51as Partizan Belgrade. This looks like probably one of the draws Rangers might have rather avoided,
11:01doesn't it, Barry? Definitely. This is one of the worst draws the Rangers could have got,
11:07I think, because you're going to be going away to Serbia or Poland against arguably the biggest
11:14club in Serbia and arguably the biggest club in Ukraine. So it's extremely tough for them.
11:19Rangers' home game is likely to be at Hampden, which is slightly different from the European
11:24advantage they've gained in recent years from playing at Ibrox. Their run to the Europa League
11:30final was largely based on their performances and results at Ibrox. That's taken away a little bit
11:36when they're at Hampden. You just need to look at the squads, the Partizan Belgrade squad.
11:41There's Brazilians in there, Bosnians, Serbians, obviously decent Belgian players, Israelis.
11:48We're going to take a short break now, but we'll be right back to talk about the
11:52Champions League draw as well as Kilmarnock and Saint-Marin's European opponents.
12:07I think Rangers are in for a really tough time, no matter who they get
12:11in this draw, no matter who comes through. And I think we probably say Dynamo Kiev would be the
12:14favourites to beat Partizan Belgrade. I think that's probably fair. But either way, I think
12:22it's really tough for Rangers. Particularly their away league, they could really struggle.
12:27Yeah, I think you're right there, Barry. What it shows is no matter how much they've revamped
12:32the Champions League, it's still going to be tough to get into it if you're not in those
12:36qualifying rounds. And Scotland's coefficient has been better in recent years, but it still
12:40can be really, really brutal unless you're getting in one of the leagues where you can
12:44get automatically in. Yeah, and we know that Dynamo Kiev, as much as Rangers would miss
12:55home advantage, Dynamo Kiev are also in a probably worse position in that they'll have to
13:01play their games in Poland due to the ongoing situation there. But if it ends up being Partizan,
13:08Rangers faced Red Star not so long ago, John, even prior to that on their road to Manchester
13:15back in 2008. You were telling me before the recording you were there. It's safe to say that
13:22Belgrade is maybe not the friendliest footballing city for away fans to visit. It's a really
13:27interesting place. Yeah, they've got a lively scene, you could say. Because I remember we went
13:34on the run in 2008, a group of press, middle-aged guys out for dinner in a restaurant and
13:42next thing the police turned up and we were finishing up and they said, yeah, we'll just
13:47walk you back to your hotel. We're like, what do you mean? We're not going for a drink? No,
13:52no, it's not safe for you. We'll walk you back to your hotel. This big kind of riot police walking
13:58us back to our hotel felt a little bit incongruous. And then they told us we couldn't leave the hotel.
14:04And the game itself, you know, it was like, it was the usual flares and madness and chaos.
14:11And that was a very good Rangers team, obviously, under Walter Smith and they got the job done that night.
14:17I'm sure there is an enjoyable aspect to that. I mean, how often do you actually get to
14:22experience an atmosphere like that? But certainly, as a player, you've got to imagine it's
14:30quite intimidating as well. Do you think Rangers will have a preference here? I mean, I think
14:37Kiev will be favourites to come through the group, obviously, Barry, but
14:41in terms of the two squads, maybe not that much between them. Obviously, Dynamo do have
14:48a lot of Ukrainian internationals in that team, including former West Ham striker
14:56Andriy Yarmolenko, who we know from his time in the Premier League is a superb player, even if he is
15:02getting up there in age a wee bit. But I think probably Kiev maybe have the slightly better
15:08squads, but Partizan, as we were just speaking about, will have the advantage of
15:15a home footballing crowd in one of the most hostile cities in Europe.
15:21Yeah, I think if you were to give them a straight choice right now, they'd probably pick Partizan, Belgrade.
15:26On that basis, Dynamo Kiev would be the stronger team, you would think, and certainly looking
15:32through the squads, they would look stronger. But that's not to belittle Partizan, Belgrade. When
15:37you're going away to Belgrade, no matter who you're playing, then you're in for a really tough
15:40time. And as John's experienced himself, a really hostile time as well. They're not
15:46shrinking violets over there at all. And also, technically, they're very good
15:52teams from those sort of nations, particularly the Serbians, that they have a way of bringing
15:56players up that's totally focused on technical ability. So they keep the ball well, they move
16:03it well, they play at a tempo, they're backed obviously by a passionate home support,
16:08and they're capable of going away from home and scoring goals and causing you trouble. So
16:13I think whoever Rangers get, I think they're in for a really tough time. Getting through that
16:17to get to the playoff round of the Champions League, I think would be a really good achievement
16:21for this Rangers team at the moment. The one other thing I remember about that trip,
16:25just to jump in, was on our little minibus from the airport to the hotel to start with,
16:31we had a little tour guide and all she kept saying was, over there is the police station,
16:35which the British planes and NATO bombed. Over there is the headquarters, which the British
16:40planes and NATO bombed like 10 years earlier or something like that. We're going, aye, all right,
16:45we get it. So welcome to Belgrade. Yeah, it's difficult. Looking at the Belgrade squad,
16:54there's not really any names that jump out the way Yarmolenko does at Dynamo Kyiv and a few other
17:01familiar names from the Ukrainian national side. But that's not to say these aren't quality players,
17:07like just a brief search at some of these guys, because the names are vaguely familiar. We're
17:12talking about Serbian, Montenegrin internationals, Slovenians, and we've seen if someone's earning
17:2030, 40 caps for these international teams, we've seen from the Euros this year and previously that
17:26these are quality sides. These guys are at least as good as the quality of players that Scotland
17:32have. So we know there is a decent level of opposition they're going to be up against.
17:37Speaking of decent levels of opposition, Kalmarnik are going to come up against a pretty
17:45stern test it looks like in, is it, Cercle Brugge? Have I pronounced that right? I'm quite happy with
17:53myself. Yeah, the Belgian league, obviously a breeding ground for some of the players that
18:00have gone on to become some of the best in Europe. What are we thinking, John? I see you nodding
18:06there. Do you give Killie much of a chance against an opposition of this calibre?
18:11At least it's always difficult. It just seems to be ingrained in us now that any Scottish team,
18:18whoever we face at this stage, the Scottish clubs, you're always running into quality
18:24opposition here. Listen, Kalmarnik did brilliantly last year. Derek McInnes, a really clever manager.
18:32I don't know enough about Cercle Brugge to go into the ins and outs of it, but you would expect
18:37there will be a budget gap and probably there'll be a quality gap in key areas of the park there,
18:44given the reputation of Belgian football and how hard it is. Their domestic league is fairly strong
18:49and as you point out, does produce a lot of players. Although a lot of the names we think
18:54have actually left earlier, they didn't stay and play a lot of first team games there.
19:00But it's still very strong. It's always hard to see it at this stage of the season. We went from
19:06being a nation where we expected our teams to win these early stage games to suffering some pretty
19:13bad defeats over the years and that kind of almost kind of mental scarring for Scottish
19:18football fans is there. Yeah, and then Barry, probably St Mirren. You don't want to say that
19:25I know as much about Cercle Brugge as I do about Valour from Iceland, which is admittedly in both
19:31cases not an awful lot. So I'm kind of going off of just very vague information here, but
19:37you look at drawing a team from Iceland and you think you would expect that they'll be well
19:44coached, well organised, but St Mirren, if they approach that game in the right way, you have to
19:49believe, do have a decent chance of getting through? Yeah, 50-50 I think, Martin. I think
19:56Valour are quite, from the little that I know of them, quite a capable side in Iceland. They're
20:01sitting third in the Iceland Premier League at the moment. 23 times Icelandic league winners, so.
20:08Yeah, they've got a pedigree, 100%. They're not quite the same Valour that they were in previous
20:14years, because I think they've had to rebuild their squad. But they're still, you know, they're
20:18five points off the top of the league, sitting third at the moment with a game in hand. So they're
20:22clearly among the stronger teams in the country. St Mirren themselves, you know, you look at their
20:27squad, they obviously lost Brian Strain and Keanu Backus there in the summer, the two big players
20:33for them. So trying to replace them is going to be difficult. They may not be quite as strong in those
20:38kind of areas, midfield and down the right side. So I think it's 50-50. I think that tie could go
20:45either way, again, Valour and St Mirren. I think, again, if you go away from home, you have to try
20:51and not just camp on your own half, you have to try and go and take the game to the opposition
20:56and try and get yourself a goal and then put the home team on the back foot a little bit.
21:01And then at home, you clearly want St Mirren to have a stadium full and, you know, lots of noise,
21:06lots of hostility and passion behind them to try and get through that tie. But it's tough.
21:12I think days gone by where you look at Icelandic teams as, you know, easy fodder, I just don't
21:17think that's the case anymore. And certainly not for, you know, St Mirren, who are traditionally
21:22not one of the bigger teams in Scotland either.
21:24Barry, you make an excellent point there as well about St Mirren and their own issues, you know, having lost players.
21:30And I think if you want to circle back to Rangers, I think Philippe Clement's got his own problems
21:34before you even look at who they're playing at the moment. You know, you look at Rangers, you go,
21:39well, against either of those teams, if Rangers are at absolute peak and he's got in who he wants to get
21:43and everything is rosy, then they have a chance. But I think he's got issues at the moment.
21:48They've got issues with players potentially, even players at the left.
21:52He doesn't sound all that confident about getting in the players he wants to get in.
21:55Yeah, I agree, John. I think quite often you get this pre-season where a manager is just not comfortable
22:05with how things have gone over the summer. And Philippe Clement certainly gives you that impression
22:09with some of the things he said and just his general demeanour. I think there's probably some underlying
22:15issues there. I think there has to be, certainly the team squad at Rangers needs more investment,
22:20more signings. So it'll be interesting to see how the next couple of months pan out there.
22:25I think that's a big thing that clubs in Scotland have historically always faced in Europe.
22:30St Mirren, like we're seeing it now, losing two key players from last season.
22:34Kilmarnock in a slightly more fortunate place where they've kept the squad together.
22:39But these are obviously massive matches and the way Scottish football works, these will be
22:44probably like, well, these will be the first competitive matches for St Mirren and Killie.
22:49And obviously it won't be the case for like Hearts when they enter it. And it's interesting,
22:54because obviously Hearts are benefiting. For St Mirren or Kilmarnock, they would almost want
23:00their match to come later in the summer to the point where they've managed to bring in new players,
23:06settle them in. But then if your Hearts, and obviously at the moment as we sit here,
23:11there's no suggestion that say Laurence Shankland is going anywhere. That might develop as the window
23:18goes on and an offer potentially comes in. So for Hearts, they probably want to get the qualifier
23:23out of the way while they still have their best players on the books, which they might very well
23:29have come the end of the window, remains to be seen. But either way, it's three fascinating ties.
23:36And then obviously we've got Hearts entering the competition as well to look forward to and
23:41eventually Celtic when we get to that stage. That is all we've got time for. Thank you very
23:46much, John. Thank you, Barry. We'll be back next week with more Fitbit Talk.