Martyn is joined by Barry Anderson and John Greechan to predict the players that could be joining Steve Clarke in Germany.
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00:00 Hello and welcome to National World Fitba Talk, your nan's favourite football podcast
00:11 Ken. It's a show where we break down the latest news and results from the Scottish Premiership
00:15 and around the SPFL. I'm your host Martin Simpson, joined by my colleagues from Edinburgh
00:20 Evening News, Barry Anderson and John Greekin. This week's episode is going to be a special
00:25 where we look at who we think will make the 20 free man squad for Scotland travelling
00:30 to the Euro 2024 finals in Germany next summer. So guys, I think we'll go through this quite
00:36 simply. I think we'll just start off at goalkeepers, work our way up from there. And the goalkeeper
00:42 one is quite an interesting situation. We'll come to you first Barry because there's quite
00:48 a heavy hearts perspective on this. I think Angus Gunn is going to be nailed on to go
00:55 and then it comes down to Craig Gordon, who obviously is working his way back from serious
01:00 fitness issues and will be 41 years old when the tournament comes around. And then we've
01:05 got Xander Clarke, Liam Kelly and Robbie McCrory. Assuming that Steve Clarke takes three goalkeepers,
01:13 which three keepers do you expect him to take? I expect him to take Angus Gunn, Craig Gordon
01:20 and Xander Clarke. Which I think might be slightly harsh on Liam Kelly because I think
01:25 Liam Kelly is a very good keeper. But just purely on pecking order, Craig Gordon was
01:30 Scotland number one until he got injured so you have to think that he has a good chance
01:34 of working his way back into the squad fitness permitting. Angus Gunn is clearly the number
01:38 one at the moment and has been throughout the qualifying campaign until he picked up
01:41 an injury last month. And Steve Clarke has made it clear that he ranks Xander Clarke
01:47 higher in the pecking order than Liam Kelly at the moment. So I think that seems to be
01:52 your three goalkeepers for the Euros. As things stand at the moment, obviously there's a long
01:55 way to go between now and next May until the squad is named. But at the moment I would say
01:59 yeah that's your three. Any disagreement on those three John? Certainly not from me.
02:05 No, I don't think so. Assuming fitness isn't an issue, the choice of your number three
02:11 goalkeeper isn't the biggest thing on earth. It's not something to get argued about. You
02:15 pick the guy that you like, knowing that he's almost certainly not going to get a minute
02:19 of game time. It takes us probably into the wider debate
02:25 of who's going to be what number in terms of that one, two, three. Like you said, Craig
02:30 Gordon was number one before the injury. Angus Gunn has been number one since. I think we
02:36 could probably all agree Xander Clarke will be third choice. But then that depends. Is
02:42 Craig Gordon just going to be handed that heart start and jersey back once he's fit,
02:47 Larry? I don't think it's as clear cut as that.
02:52 I think it depends on what kind of level can he get back to after a year out, already being
02:58 40 years old and a double leg break. Nobody would write him off. Absolutely you couldn't
03:02 say this will be Craig just trying to wind down. He's not got that in him. It wouldn't
03:08 surprise me if he becomes hearts number one again, put it that way. I think the difficulty
03:12 for Steve Clarke, now Steve Clarke's not stupid. So let's be brutally honest about it. From
03:18 this moment on, Angus Gunn will have a longer international career than Craig Gordon will.
03:24 So if you're Steve Clarke, even if you get to the point where you think Craig Gordon
03:30 is maybe edging Angus Gunn a little bit here and he's maybe just a slight favourite to
03:33 be the number one, do you drop Angus Gunn in favour of Craig Gordon, knowing that at
03:38 some point in a year's time, two years time, three years time, you're going to have to
03:41 go back to Angus Gunn and say I want you to be my number one again?
03:44 That's a really good point. I also think if Craig Gordon gets back to his form, he's a
03:48 better goalkeeper than Angus Gunn. They're brilliant considerations and important considerations,
03:56 but I still come back to pick your best goalie. Just pick your best goalie in the game that
04:01 you've got. We see it at club level so often, don't we? A goalie gets in and the manager
04:06 will say "oh he's not done anything wrong, so I'm not dropping him". If your better goalie
04:11 is sitting on the bench and fit now, or back from suspension, put him back in. You wouldn't
04:15 do it with your strikers. "Oh he's not done anything wrong". You put your best player
04:18 in.
04:19 I'm with you guys on that. I think Craig Gordon at his best is a better goalkeeper than Angus
04:24 Gunn. I'm tending to agree with John there. If he gets back into the Hearts team, maybe
04:32 say we're looking around about late next month, early January, and he is back to what he was
04:39 like before that double leg break, then I would be very inclined to have him start in
04:44 the first match of the Euros.
04:46 Let's move on to defenders. Things become a little more tricky, picking the squad in
04:51 this order. We need to consider, I think we know he's going to take three goalkeepers,
04:56 so how many defenders is he going to take? I always picture it as taking two strong start
05:02 in 11s, and that leaves you with an extra 21, 22 and so forth.
05:13 In terms of defence, we know the guys that are definitely going to go, Andy Robertson
05:18 is going to be there, Kieran Tierney is going to be there, Aaron Hickey is going to be there,
05:22 Nathan Paterson is going to be there. That covers our full backs. In terms of centre-backs,
05:26 I think Hendry, McKenna and Porteous are all nailed on. That leaves a few to choose from.
05:34 Not exactly as deep a pool as you might like either. What are your thoughts on it, John?
05:43 Any of those names I've mentioned you think are maybe not as cut and dry? Who out of his
05:48 remaining choices do you think will make up the rest of the defence?
05:53 I'm not sure he has to go massive on his numbers and defenders because you've got to remember
05:58 he can play two systems, and he's talked about that. He can play three at the back, he can
06:02 play the four at the back. I think what we saw last night in particular, and we've seen
06:05 it before, four at the back, he cannae play McKenna and Hendry in that. It just doesn't
06:11 work. Or well, maybe it does work if you've got Robertson or Tierney at left back. But
06:16 if we're playing three at the back, Tierney is your left-sided centre-half. He's become
06:22 maybe one of the best in Europe doing that position the way he does it, which is to attack
06:26 from left centre-half. And then he's also your cover at left back, and he also can play
06:31 left centre-half on a four. He's such a good enough player to do that. I think there's
06:35 a couple in there. I think Porteous is probably your best central defender. Hanley, if fit
06:43 and available, is so admired within the coaching group. I think he's faster than people think,
06:51 he's stronger than people think. He gets the wrong image sometimes among punters who think
06:57 "Oh, it's big, big Grant Hanley", but he's actually very, very good at a lot of things.
07:01 So he's got acclaim. And I don't think you have to go overboard on the centre-half centre.
07:07 I don't think a Liam Cooper, unless he's playing. I think McKenna might struggle, but because
07:12 you've got 23, you maybe take him and he's not in your starting 11.
07:19 See I would be inclined to disagree slightly, John. I think he's almost certainly going
07:26 to start every game with a five at the back, the three at the back and the wing-backs.
07:31 I think maybe the playing with a four at the back might be more if he feels he needs to
07:36 adjust mid-game if we're trailing. But it's hard to say. So in that case, I think maybe
07:44 if you only have one or two extra spots in the team, I do think you want to take a defender.
07:52 The Grant Hanley...
07:53 In which case your back three then is probably Tierney left, Hanley in the middle and Porteous
07:59 right or a combination of that or A and other. Maybe McKenna makes it in there. Yeah, you're
08:03 right.
08:04 I think Grant McKenna gets in ahead of Hanley. We need to speak about Grant Hanley because
08:08 it's a really interesting one. I want to come to you here, Barry. Obviously, having a centre-back
08:12 of his experience, you want that in the squad, if not just in the starting 11, but certainly
08:18 in the group. But he's coming off the back of a very bad ACL injury and he is at a more
08:26 senior age in his career. So that does mean he's probably going to take a bit longer to
08:29 recover. On top of that, I understand he's actually had a bit of a setback. He's yet
08:34 to play this season. He's suffered another setback. It's a race against time for him,
08:39 isn't it?
08:40 It is and it's a shame because, as John was alluding to there, each time you've seen Grant
08:47 Hanley in a Scotland shirt in the last couple of years prior to this injury, he's been excellent.
08:52 He hasn't even had an average game. He's been good or very good or superb in every match.
08:59 That's why Steve Clarke likes him. He's not just the rugged, brutish centre-back. He can
09:06 actually play. He reads the game well. He can get the ball down and pass it. He's not
09:10 overly fancy. He just gets the ball down and gives it to the guys in front of him who can
09:14 then use it from there. I really hope that he gets fit in time to be part of it because
09:20 I think Scotland defence is better with Hanley in it, flanked by, you could argue, Henry
09:26 or Portis to the right and certainly Tierney to the left.
09:29 On Henry, how much is where he's playing, how much is that a factor for you, Barry?
09:34 It's a good point, John, because it's not the same level, with the greatest of respect,
09:40 it's not the same level as your Tierney and Robertsons are playing at and even Hickey
09:44 Paterson and most of the other defences are playing in the English Premier League. But
09:51 you have to say that Henry hasn't done anything wrong in a Scotland shirt and therefore probably
09:54 doesn't deserve to be, at the moment, wouldn't deserve to be left out. But at the same time,
10:01 Portis has been very good. I've been really impressed with Portis and I know he's not
10:04 playing in top flight football at the moment either, but he hasn't put a foot wrong for
10:10 Scotland and that's something else to consider. So I certainly think if Hanley's fully fit
10:14 and on form, then he'll play. Tierney will definitely play if you're on the left of the
10:18 back three. So the only question is who plays on the right and it's between Henry and Portis.
10:24 Not McKenna, no. McKenna's left sided, so you want a bit more balance.
10:31 McKenna to me is Tierney's deputy on the left side of the back three.
10:35 There's two very different players for one to be deputising over.
10:42 McKenna did make an overlapping run last night at one point.
10:46 That's right, aye. I was actually behind that goal and it came charging down the left wing.
10:50 I was thinking, what's going on here? Did he get up here? Did he get the train?
10:53 It's like watching a chest freezer overtake a 2x4.
10:56 Putting a good cross as well.
11:00 Yeah, well, I think and then obviously, if he does take an extra centre back, I think
11:08 that the other two that are probably somewhere in the discussion are John Suter and Dominic
11:14 Hayham. They are obviously further down the list, but it's probably a good thing for Rangers
11:22 and for Coventry City because those two guys know that they're not only competing with
11:28 guys that are more established than them, but if a spot does open up, they're competing
11:32 with each other.
11:33 And that's going to, hopefully, if you're a Rangers fan or a Coventry City fan, reap
11:36 some rewards towards the end of the season.
11:38 But we're just going to take a short ad break.
11:41 We'll be back to pick more of our Scotland squad shortly.
11:44 Just before we move on for the defence, if we're seeing Tierney as a left-sided centre
12:12 back, is there anything to be said for taking an additional specialist left back like Greg
12:18 Taylor in the squad or is there just not the space for that?
12:21 I can see you shaking your head, John.
12:25 I think we've, we're hopefully, I like Greg Taylor as a player and I think he's done a
12:31 lot of very good things.
12:32 He had a great season last year for Celtic in particular.
12:35 I think we'd like to think we're moving on from guys who won't let anybody down, which
12:40 is what I would call him as a player, to guys who are going to go out and take games by
12:44 the scruff of the neck.
12:45 And I think if we have a situation where Robertson's injured, suspended, wherever it is, I think
12:49 you move Tierney there and you rearrange your central defence because Tierney's so good
12:54 at that.
12:55 He's so natural at it.
12:56 He's made this brilliant role for himself as a left centre half, but he would be absolutely
13:00 brilliant if we had to shuffle things around there.
13:04 And I think you've probably got a little bit more cover then if you take an extra central
13:07 defender to shift things around.
13:09 He's such an important attacking threat if he's going to play the 3-5 or 3-4-2-1, whatever
13:14 you want to call it.
13:15 He's such an important attacking threat.
13:18 You really need somebody who's, again, that absolutely, as Barry talked about, playing
13:21 at a higher level, top-notch, genuine, international-experienced, international-class player out there.
13:27 Yeah, I think Greg Taylor, he'll certainly be on standby, but I think we're also, I'm
13:32 probably guilty of sitting here and forgetting that Aaron Hickey's been so impressive at
13:36 right back that forgetting that he's actually a left back.
13:42 It's probably fair to say that Taylor doesn't make the score.
13:45 I think that that's what might have happened in this window.
13:48 If Hickey had been fit, I think he would have played Hickey left wing back and Patterson
13:52 right wing back.
13:53 Yeah, Hickey's such a clever player.
13:56 You could slot him in either side, can't you?
14:00 So moving on to midfields, it follows on nicely from a point you just made there, John, about
14:05 picking guys that haven't let you down, because we're going to get onto one specific individual
14:11 who I'm sure everyone can tell who I'm alluding to.
14:15 But in terms of, I think midfield is pretty, again, it's pretty obvious.
14:20 We know McTominay, McGinn, McGregor, Gilmour are all going to be there.
14:27 I mean, Lewis Ferguson's surely not going to miss out.
14:29 I know he's not been as established a player over Steve Clarke's reign as other players
14:35 we've mentioned, but given his form in Serie A, I think it would be a travesty to not take
14:40 him.
14:41 Armstrong and Christie, did both of them make the squad, Barry?
14:48 I think so, yeah.
14:49 Again, if you look over the piece with Steve Clarke's reign, they've been regular members
14:55 of the squad, you know, solid members of the squad, who have at times started games and
15:01 had their impact, at times come off the bench and had impacts, versatile, clearly capable
15:07 of assists and goals and set pieces and all that sort of thing.
15:11 I think they bring quite a lot.
15:13 Each of them brings quite a lot to the squad.
15:16 And in that context, yeah, I think it's pretty certain that both will go.
15:22 So the fact that we're realising now is that we've only got 23 men and we're running out
15:26 of space and this takes us nicely to Kenny McLean.
15:32 Also Ryan Jack, who we don't want to overlook, but I think if you're cutting a squad down
15:37 to 23 men, I mean, feel free to jump in if anyone disagrees, but I don't think Ryan Jack
15:42 makes the 23.
15:44 Kenny McLean, on the other hand, there's no room for sentiment in this kind of selection,
15:51 but you felt for him missing the last Euros having played such an important part in qualifying
15:57 for them.
15:58 And it's fair to say, like, I mean, the goal in Oslo alone, but he's been an important
16:03 part of qualifying this time around.
16:05 But he's right on that.
16:08 I mean, is there space for him in the squad?
16:10 That would be my question, Barry.
16:13 Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt that Kenny McLean will go.
16:17 Again, another guy that Steve Clarke rates really highly.
16:20 Dependable, reliable, always turns up for every squad, never moans about not starting
16:26 games, always comes on and gives you a solid performance, keeps the ball extremely well,
16:32 his ball retention is excellent, he's got a lovely left foot, can take a penalty as
16:36 we saw in the Israel penalty shootout.
16:40 So yeah, I don't think there's any question that he'll be there.
16:44 I actually felt sorry for him in the Norway game when he started wide on the left, because
16:48 he is a centre midfield player.
16:49 I know he's left-footed and he can do a job reasonably out there, but it just wasn't his
16:54 position and it was a shame.
16:55 You can imagine that in a pre-match chat.
16:57 You're on the left wing.
16:58 Yeah, I don't think it's sentiment.
16:59 I don't think it's sentiment at all, Barry.
17:01 He made all the right points.
17:02 He's an intelligent footballer, he keeps the ball well.
17:05 You know you can throw him on in about three or four different situations to do a very
17:10 specific job, like go on in Oslo, go on and take some hand grenades and try and create
17:16 some chaos.
17:18 You're 1-0 up, go on and kill it.
17:20 Go on and be very tidy.
17:22 Play the ball back to the full-back, get it back in, play it out.
17:25 He can do all these things very, very well.
17:27 So I don't think that would be a sentiment thing.
17:29 I think that would be Clarke looking at guys he knows he can plug into the team and play
17:33 in different positions, different roles, different game situations.
17:38 I mean I'm not trying to do him a disservice.
17:40 I'm actually a huge fan of Kevin McLean and he makes my 23 certainly.
17:45 I just am, you know, recognizing the fact that there are sections of the Scotland support
17:50 who do sort of roll their eyes every time he's chosen.
17:53 But you guys have made the perfect point there.
17:56 Everything he brings to Scotland, you know, not just his ability but his mentality as
18:00 well, like I don't think we can say he isn't there on merit.
18:04 So yeah, I really, I agree with you guys fully.
18:07 I think he makes the 23.
18:09 But now we need to move on to strikers and this is where the numbers game sort of comes
18:15 into play.
18:16 Because if we look at who we've chosen so far, do we still have room for free strikers?
18:22 Is he going to want to take free strikers or is Steve Clarke going to want to take an
18:28 additional midfielder or an additional defender?
18:32 If it's me, personally, I take maybe if I've got two additional players I can take for
18:39 me it's an extra centre back and an extra midfielder which only leaves two strikers
18:45 which obviously is going to be Dykes and Adams.
18:49 That's just my personal opinion.
18:50 So I want to take you guys in.
18:53 We said that obviously we're not taking Taylor and if we're not overloading on centre backs,
18:58 which is what we've kind of agreed on, that we don't need to take Haim or Suter if Hanley's
19:05 fit.
19:06 That does leave us with free striker spots.
19:09 So which is good because it does mean we can sort of get into the point of this debate
19:13 because we know Dykes and Adams will go.
19:16 So it's who does that third striker slot go to?
19:20 Shankland, Brown, Nisbet.
19:23 Barry, who would you?
19:26 Take Shankland at the moment.
19:29 Simply on form you have to take Shankland.
19:31 Again, there's a long time, a lot of football to be played between now and naming the squad
19:37 in May but Shankland's goal-scoring record, he's the only Scotland striker who's scoring
19:43 regularly in a top league, top flight.
19:47 The rest of them are either playing for a team in a second tier or in Jacob Brown's
19:53 case playing quite regularly at Luton but not scoring many goals.
19:57 So I think Shankland, they're all different, the strikers are all different.
20:01 Dykes has got qualities that Adams doesn't have, Adams has got qualities that Shankland
20:05 doesn't have, Shankland's got qualities that neither Dykes nor Adams have got.
20:09 So again, they all bring something else to the table.
20:11 I think as well, probably worth pointing out that when the Scotland squad is named, Ryan
20:16 Christie's listed as a forward.
20:19 So he's in among that category as well.
20:21 So to me, if you were saying to me that the Scotland squad for the Euros next summer,
20:25 your four forwards would be Christie, Shankland, Dykes and Adams, I'd be quite happy with that.
20:29 It's fair to say John that Jacob Brown didn't really take the chance that was finally given
20:35 to him against Norway last night.
20:39 Are you with Barry on that?
20:40 If we're taking one more striker, is it Lawrence Shankland?
20:44 I think so but I think a lot depends between now and the end of the season.
20:48 This is always the case.
20:49 It's like when we talk about the Kenny McLean thing and people say, "Oh, fans roll their
20:56 eyes."
20:57 Who are you taking instead?
20:58 That's a question to them.
20:59 So it's up to somebody else to jump their way in there.
21:01 Well, if you're a Rangers fan and Ryan Jack misses out, I guess that's who you would say
21:05 over Kenny McLean.
21:06 If Ryan Jack has an outstanding second half to the season, then yes.
21:13 He's brilliant and does everything that he did at his absolute peak of his game, moving
21:17 the ball really quickly, taking it over.
21:19 Then I'm sure Steve Clarke has a look and goes, "Actually, maybe I'll take him as an
21:23 extra midfielder."
21:24 So, up front, yeah, listen, Shankland's just a goal-getter, isn't he?
21:30 It does remind me, I was chatting to you earlier and Barry will be old enough to remember it,
21:34 but France '98, there was all this Paul Wright, was it?
21:39 Killy?
21:40 And we're scoring goals.
21:41 Left, right and centre.
21:42 He was scoring goals, scoring goals.
21:44 And everyone thought he was a shoo-in for it.
21:46 And then I'm trying to think, I think Craig Brown ended up taking Kevin Gallagher, Darren
21:52 Jackson, Gordon Durie, Scott Booth.
21:54 I think Scott Booth was there as well.
21:57 And it was like this guy who was scoring goals for fun in the domestic league was just left
22:02 out because ultimately at the end, there were four guys who had experience at a higher level.
22:07 Kevin was at Blackburn at the time.
22:12 Darren Jackson had moved to Celtic from Dundee United, hadn't he?
22:15 At that point, I'm trying to think, Durie was still at Rangers.
22:18 Durie was at Rangers, yeah.
22:19 Yeah, Durie was at Rangers.
22:20 He was just him over there.
22:21 Scott Booth at Dortmund even.
22:22 Was Scott Booth at Dortmund?
22:23 Yeah, Ali McCoy didn't make it.
22:24 Was Scott Booth at Dortmund at the time?
22:27 Or Dutch club?
22:28 20, maybe.
22:29 I'm not sure.
22:30 Yeah, maybe FC20.
22:31 So he took guys from a different environment.
22:32 But again, we don't have that at the moment.
22:36 There's nobody else you're looking at out there going, "Oh, there's a great Scottish striker
22:41 ripping it up in La Liga."
22:45 I think we've got our Scotland squad then.
22:47 So let's just go through that finally.
22:48 Can someone count along with me just to make sure we've got 23?
22:53 So we're looking at Angus Guns, Andrew Clarke, Craig Gordon, Andy Robertson, Kieran Tierney,
22:58 Nathan Patterson, Aaron Hickey, Grant Hanley, Jack Henry, Scott McKenna, Ryan Porteous,
23:04 Callum McGregor, Scott McTominay, Billy Gilmore, Kenny McLean, Tom McGinn, Ryan Christie, Stuart
23:10 Armstrong, Lewis Ferguson, Lyndon Dykes, Che Adams and Lawrence Shankland.
23:15 How many is that?
23:16 I thought that was 23.
23:17 I think that was 22.
23:18 22.
23:19 Liam Cooper, extra defender.
23:20 Sound all right?
23:29 You love this extra defender, aren't you?
23:30 This is his whole, "Give me an extra defender."
23:33 Yeah.
23:34 Yeah.
23:35 Yeah, that looks like a really good squad to me, lads.
23:39 Thanks very much.
23:40 That's all we've got time for this week.
23:42 Thanks for watching and as always, really looking forward to the Euros next year.
23:46 Should be a great time.
23:47 Thanks for watching.
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