Martyn Simpson and Lewis Anderson discuss who's replacing Steven McLean at St Johnstone, and preview the teams in the weekends Viaplay semi-finals.
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00:00 Hello and welcome to National World Football Talk, your nan's favourite football podcast
00:10 Ken. It's a show where we break down the latest news and results from around the Scottish
00:14 Premiership and beyond in the SPFL. I'm your host Martin Simpson, joined once again by
00:20 Lewis Anderson from Glasgow World. We're going to be talking about Stephen McLean's sacking
00:25 at St Johnstone and who could be the next manager at McDermott Park and we'll be taking
00:29 a look ahead to this weekend's VIA Play Cup semi-finals.
00:34 So Lewis, perhaps the only surprise about Stephen McLean's sacking is that it's taken
00:39 St Johnstone this long to get rid of him. Look, I don't mean to be harsh but after the
00:46 results in the VIA Play Cup group stages I think he was pretty much on borrowed time,
00:50 right?
00:51 Yeah, it certainly seemed to be that way. Obviously a kind of dismal start to the season
00:56 and never really managed to recover from that. Obviously still to win a game as well in the
01:02 top flight this season. That's nine matches so far, no victories and already kind of cut
01:10 adrift a bit at the foot of the table. So yeah, disappointing. I thought it was a strange
01:16 appointment in the first place. We touched on that over the summer that we thought maybe
01:21 St Johnstone maybe should have looked at someone a bit more experienced rather than going for
01:24 a rookie. I know he's obviously served as assistant previously but yeah, the writing
01:30 seemed on the wall from a fairly early stage. So no real surprise. Obviously a disappointment
01:37 for St Johnstone given that they have a notoriously good record when it comes to appointing managers.
01:44 But yeah, they just got this one absolutely wrong from the get-go I'm afraid.
01:48 Yeah, it's one of those ones. It can go either way going with an assistant manager or a coach
01:53 that worked under the previous manager. We've seen what's happening. Stephen Naismith's
01:59 not having a great time at hearts right now. Things have been pretty mixed for Aberdeen
02:05 under Barry Robson this season with the scales at the moment tipping further towards disappointment
02:11 rather than positives, it has to be said. Sometimes when you appoint internally, the
02:17 question is rightfully asked, well, why get rid of the previous manager in the first place
02:22 if you're just going to put in charge a member of his backroom staff permanently? Obviously,
02:28 Robson earned that Aberdeen job in his interim period and Naismith wasn't an assistant manager
02:34 to Robbie Nielsen or anything. He was managing the youth set-up and they obviously saw something
02:38 in him. With the Stephen McLean one, it was different. He was part of Callum Davidson's
02:46 backroom staff. I don't know what they maybe saw from him that suggested he was the right
02:53 man to make the appointment, to appoint full-time. Hindsight's 20/20 and the benefit of looking
03:01 back on it now. Who do they go for next? It's a weird one. You've seen Neil Lennon's came
03:07 out today, a man who will put his name in the mix for a job when it becomes available
03:12 and he said, no, probably not right now. Does that suggest that this is going to be a difficult
03:19 process for them getting in a decent calibre of coach with any kind of experience?
03:24 Yeah, I think so. I think it's worth mentioning there that obviously McLean, that was the
03:29 shortest managerial appointment period that they've had in the club's history. I think
03:35 it was only four wins and a nearly 50% loss ratio, which obviously is hugely concerning.
03:43 This is a club, of course, who won a cup double just a few years ago under Callum Davidson.
03:48 They've been in free-fall ever since. Lennon touched on it with his comments on PLZ saying
03:56 that he does see it as a really challenging job at this minute in time and it's not one
04:03 for him at this moment. I can understand his point of view. I think supporters at this
04:11 stage are feeling that their long reign in the top flight is coming to an end. I think
04:17 this is a squad at the moment that is lacking in premiership experience. They've got a lot
04:22 of guys brought in on loan. They didn't sign and bring guys in until quite late in the
04:28 summer transfer window as well, which for a rookie manager can't happen. If you're St
04:33 Johnson, now you're looking at the list of contenders, I still think it's a relatively
04:40 attractive enough position. I know Robbie Nielsen's one name that was towards the head
04:46 of the betting. He was previously linked with St Johnson in the summer before McLean was
04:50 appointed. He might be an interesting fit, whether or not he might view that as a bit
04:57 of a step back given what he achieved with Hearts. That would certainly be an interesting
05:04 one. Of course, there's Scott Brown who is keen to get back into management. I see he's
05:10 towards the head of the betting as well this morning. He's spoken about getting at chief
05:15 feet and wanting to get back in after being sacked by Fleetwood. Whether or not he is
05:21 the type of profile that St Johnson might look for, I think they'll probably head further
05:27 down the experience line. One name at a bigger price that might interest them would be Billy
05:32 Dodds who had a brief six-month spell there as a player. He knows the club, knows a lot
05:41 about the club. Obviously, a disappointing dismissal from Inverness recently, but you
05:50 look at his time there, he guided them to the play-off final, which they lost to St
05:55 Johnson, and the Scottish Cup final. I'm not too sure if he might be the type of candidate
06:01 they might look at, but certainly a lot of interesting names already linked to the post.
06:09 Billy Dodds, no disrespect. I think Billy Dodds could go in there and he could certainly
06:13 be a solid boss for that club. It's not a name that sets the heifer alight, is it? Maybe
06:21 like you said, that's what they need. Usually, when these jobs come about, there's quite
06:26 a few experienced former managers there or thereabouts that they might want to take a
06:37 look at, certainly. This time around, it doesn't really seem like it. We know Billy Dodds is
06:43 available. We'll get a lot of the usual suspects we get with this level of job. I think already
06:48 Neil McCann's name's been mentioned. I haven't seen his name mentioned yet, but I assume
06:52 at some point somewhere someone said John Hughes is just death taxes and Yogi being
07:01 linked with a vacancy in the top two divisions in Scotland. I don't know. What about looking
07:11 maybe to managers that are having success further down the pyramid? Do you think there
07:17 could be something in that instead of just trying to pick someone off of the free agents
07:25 or a wire? Are there any bosses maybe further down the SPFL that stand out to you? Off the
07:33 top of my head, I think Dick Campbell, it's not too far a move for him, but his situation
07:37 at Arbroath and basically having a job for life there, I assume if he wants it, suggests
07:42 that. Obviously, his situation outside of football as well might suggest that it's not
07:47 something that would interest him. There are younger coaches though. What do you think
07:52 about that possibility? I don't know. I think at this stage, it's probably fairly slim at
08:00 this moment in time. One name that I think deserves a mention is Darren Young. It's St
08:06 John's Stirling Albion. I think he's done a terrific job of them getting them promoted
08:11 from League Two and obviously has them challenging towards the top of League One in what is a
08:17 really competitive league with the likes of Hamilton, Queen of the South, teams like that
08:20 in the division. I think he deserves a bit of credit for the job he's doing. Whether
08:27 or not St Johnson might look at him, he's always applied his trade around that Fife
08:33 area, so he knows the landscape and has obviously a decent network of connections there as well.
08:42 Another one as well, he's been out of work. I'm not too sure what the circumstances are,
08:47 but Kevin Thompson during his season at Kelty Hearts got them promoted and I know he resigned.
08:55 I'm not too sure if he's looking at a route back into football. What I would say with
09:00 him is that his lack of experience, I know that was his first position and he'd been
09:05 coaching within the Rangers Youth Academy, but whether or not they might view that as
09:11 maybe a too big a step at this stage for him. You wouldn't be surprised as well if St Johnson
09:18 did venture down south. They did it with Steve Lomas, who's plucked from thin air, so there
09:25 might be someone that they already have their eye on that's doing a good job down in England.
09:32 So, it remains to be seen.
09:33 Darren Young was definitely one of the names I was thinking about when I suggested to take
09:38 a look down the leagues. One of the others was Reece McCabe, was one that came to my
09:44 head and then another was potentially Marvin Bartley and those two for me obviously are
09:55 two highly thought of young coaches, but things right now at Airdrie and Queen of the South,
10:02 they're not going superbly, are they? So that might work against them, it's hard to say.
10:10 Another interesting thing is that St Johnston, like you mentioned earlier, normally you think
10:15 of St Johnston and you think of a squad where there's a spine of kind of hardened Scottish
10:20 pros, and they do have experience in that squad, but maybe not as much in recent years,
10:26 but you wonder how much guys like Andy Considine and Graeme Carey, two of the sort of veterans
10:33 of the squad if you like, how much consideration the set up might think about having them involved
10:41 in some capacity. I'm certainly not suggesting give either of them the job because neither
10:44 of them have anything like the experience required, but certainly if they would be involved
10:49 in the sort of coaching set up, hard to say, isn't it? I'm really struggling right now
10:57 to envision any standout candidate in that role.
11:03 Yeah, it's a difficult one at this moment in time, as you said, bottom of the league,
11:09 a real low ebb in terms of confidence. I think, as you mentioned, the likes of Considine,
11:15 even Liam Gordon, who's got a lot of experience for being a relatively young captain, I do
11:24 think there's a lack of leader in that team at this moment in time. So whoever does come
11:29 in certainly has a huge job on their hands just to try and drag them out of the rut that
11:34 they're currently in.
11:35 [Music]
11:42 Okay, Lewis, Bioplay Cup semi-final this weekend. Starts off with a win for you. What's the
12:12 score?
12:13 It's a 4-0 win for the Broncos. That's a very interesting fixture right now, isn't it? You've
12:22 got two teams that have shown in flashes this season, but they've got something about them.
12:32 They're both just really lacking consistency at the moment. Even though, I mean, Nick Montgomery
12:39 certainly seems to be showing he's got a style of football he wants to play. Barry Robson
12:44 has a tactical formation that he seems dead set on. How do you think this game's going
12:49 to play out? Aberdeen have had their most success this season when they've let other
12:54 teams have the ball. You look at that excellent performance away to Eintracht Frankfurt, you
12:59 look at their win at Ibrox, and you look at the first 70 minutes of their game against
13:03 Pauk and we can see how successful that approach is for them.
13:09 And then you're also taking to fact you're going to be working on the biggest pitch in
13:14 the country at Hamden, which you would assume would benefit a counter-attacking philosophy,
13:19 especially with players like Duke and Mijovski in the team. Do you think Aberdeen will take
13:25 that approach or do you think maybe their fans might not be too appreciative in a semi-final
13:31 against Hibs for them to say, "Here you go, you guys have the bulk of the possession"?
13:36 Because Hibs have players that can hurt them, but to be fair, every team they've done that
13:42 against has had great players that could hurt them and they've managed to nullify those
13:46 threats that way.
13:47 Yeah, I think the expectation from Dons fans will be we've got enough quality in our squad,
13:54 especially in that final third, to really take the game to Hibs. In my view, I don't
14:00 think you should be allowing a team like Hibs a vast majority possession on a match of this
14:08 scale. I think you're right in saying it's going to be an incredibly difficult match
14:13 to call at this moment in time. Obviously, Nick Montgomery, we've seen a mini revival,
14:19 if you like, so far. Hibs still aren't playing eye-catching football, but he's certainly
14:26 made them harder to beat in the last couple of weeks. We saw that against Celtic, which
14:30 is possibly one of the most boring 90 minutes I've ever seen at the weekend. Aberdeen, of
14:38 course, struggling a bit domestically as well at this moment in time, losing to Cormarnock
14:42 at the weekend. It seems to me that whether or not there's a bit of a European hangover
14:50 there, I'm not too sure you can use that as an excuse at this moment in time. Personally,
14:55 I think they've got enough, as I said, in that team to even rotate the squad, bring
14:59 in guys who are more than capable of stepping up. I think I can see this tie going to extra
15:08 time. I think that's probably the safe one to say this weekend. I don't think it'll be
15:14 an incredibly high scoring game. I know both teams seem to, when it comes to facing each
15:21 other in the league, Hibs have a good, decent record up at Petaudry and Aberdeen vice versa
15:28 at Easter Road. Incredibly difficult one to call. As I said, if I was Aberdeen manager,
15:35 you wouldn't be viewing this and saying, let's allow Hibs the vast majority of the ball.
15:40 We've got enough players in all areas of pitch, in my view, that can go and take the game
15:46 to them.
15:47 We've got the midweek pictures coming up, obviously. I think we're going to learn a
15:52 lot about both sides in those games. Hibs are in action, as we record this on Tuesday
15:57 tonight. They've got Ross County at Easter Road. They will be very much expected to win
16:01 that. Aberdeen go to Motherwell. That one's quite an interesting tie in its own right.
16:10 One criticism I saw of Aberdeen after last weekend's result against Kilmarnock was that
16:14 they've brought in so many players over the summer. Then you've got a really difficult
16:21 game against a quality team in Pouk in midweek. I don't know off the top of my head, but certainly
16:28 didn't rotate that squad the way you might expect.
16:30 No.
16:31 Borgia and Majowski are terrific players, but what have Aberdeen actually signed Esther
16:37 Sockler and Pappy Guy for, if not to give Majowski a rest every so often? Conor Barron
16:44 and Leighton Clarkson, that dynamic at the moment is fascinating me because one seems
16:49 to play an incredible match, say, "Right, okay, this sort of more attacking of the partnership
16:55 with Shinny in midfield, that's my shirt." Then they go out the next game and they just
16:59 don't live up to that expectation. Then the other one comes back in and it's rinse, repeat.
17:05 Barron was fantastic against Pouk and was non-existent against Kilmarnock. Clarkson,
17:14 we've seen that from earlier in the season and they're both, we can see in the games
17:18 where they're threatening what they're capable of doing. At this stage, I do look at the
17:23 players Aberdeen have signed and I do wonder when are we actually going to move these guys
17:30 into the team and give them... It's difficult because obviously at the start of the season
17:35 they had their injury problems and that forced them into playing guys that maybe you wouldn't
17:41 think would be regular starters, guys like Shaden Morris, like Ryan Duncan in positions
17:48 that didn't favour them. But now you've got a game away to Motherwell, you're not going
17:55 to take them for granted because Motherwell, they are a good team, they're hard to beat,
17:59 but they're up and down. It's a game that you can win, but at the same time, when you've
18:06 got such a massive result coming up at the weekend, I don't know. How much of these guys
18:13 are you actually... Given that you've not really given them a chance before now, is
18:18 this the game to chuck them in? Because if they go into the semi-final on the back of
18:24 back-to-back league defeats, that can't be good for the morale around the squad. But
18:29 if you go into it on the back of maybe snatching a point at Far Park, but then your key players
18:38 like Duke and Mijovski and Clarkson or Barron, whoever it is, these guys are on a run of
18:44 playing 70, 80, 90 minutes every other day at the moment, they're going to be exhausted.
18:51 And as we've already highlighted, games at Hamden, where you're playing on that massive
18:55 pitch, are exhausting for players that aren't necessarily used to it. So I don't know. I
19:02 worry about Aberdeen going into that match right now. I think Hibs need to recognise
19:09 that it's their semi-final to lose. And I actually do think there might be some things
19:15 to be said for Aberdeen to say to them, "Here's the ball, let's see what you can do, given
19:21 how successful Aberdeen have been by doing that." Because I don't think the Dons fans
19:25 want their team to play a certain brand of football, there's no denying that. But if
19:29 they win the semi-final, and given that things aren't quite working at the moment, it might
19:33 be better just to win it and then step back and go, "Right, that worked, but that's not
19:37 how we're going to do this going forward."
19:41 But let's look at the other semi-final. Hearts at home to Rangers. When this was drawn, this
19:47 looked like a really interesting tie. After the past few weeks, I don't know, can you
19:55 see past Rangers now?
19:59 We always had the dress rehearsal there at the weekend. Rangers coming from behind in
20:05 a game that Hearts will feel incredibly deflated at. The game was there for the taking. Laurence
20:14 Franklin gave them the early lead and two late goals in stoppage time, a bit of a late
20:20 collapse from Hearts. They'll be hugely disappointed with that because going to Ibrox and taking
20:29 maximum points away from there would have certainly changed the whole dynamic of this
20:35 semi-final tie, in my view. Obviously, huge pressure on Philippe Camelot to go in there
20:41 and deliver the trophy. There'll be overwhelming favourites to do so, we all know that. But
20:48 they've still got to go and deliver. Based on what we've seen so far, I think Hearts
20:55 have an opportunity. I do. I think I've not been overly convinced by Rangers so far. Watching
21:02 their game last week against Sparta Prague in Europe as well, they spent the vast majority
21:08 of that game defending, couldn't get the ball into any kind of real creative positions.
21:18 I think Rangers are still very much a work in progress. I know Hearts have been on a
21:22 bit of a poor run under Stephen Naismith and I still don't view him as the right candidate
21:29 to lead Hearts going forward. But as you said, when it comes to cup ties, Hearts have good
21:37 recent records going to the National Stadium, albeit losing recent finals. But I think they'll
21:47 go there in a confident frame of mind, even on the back of this defeat, that they can
21:53 go there and cause Rangers real problems.
21:55 I can't see it, Lewis. I think it's interesting looking at the comparisons we could maybe
22:03 make to what I was saying about Aberdeen earlier. Aberdeen will let teams have the ball. Do
22:10 you feel like in that Hearts-Rangers game, just necessarily that Hearts were letting
22:14 Rangers have as much possession that they did or that they just couldn't do anything
22:18 about it? Because for me, I don't think they posed nearly as much threat in the counter
22:25 attack as we see. Like what Aberdeen's system, just as an example, what that does, like how
22:31 they did at Ibrox, it was clear their approach was to counter attack. For Hearts, it was
22:37 more like, I'm not suggesting that it was lucky that they got the early goal, but more
22:42 just that they got the early goal and then it's like, did they know what to do from there?
22:50 We'll probably see a change of shape in personnel, in my opinion. If I was Hearts this weekend,
22:56 I'd look at bringing Liam Boyce in and maybe reverting to a back four. Because I think
23:02 with Boyce and Shankland up top, if they can get the ball up to them too, then I think
23:07 they can pose that Rangers defence problems.
23:10 We'll have to see. I'll take your word for it. You've seen more of Rangers than I have
23:18 and that's fair enough. But from what I've seen of both sides so far this season and
23:22 just taking everything into the balance, I do struggle to see past Rangers for that one.
23:28 [Music]
23:46 [Music]
23:55 [BLANK_AUDIO]