After the Scottish Cup quarter-finals, Fitabw Talk panelists Martyn, Lewis and John discuss what we have learned about the referees, as well as looking forward to Scotland's Euro squad worries.
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00:00Hello and welcome to National World Football Talk, your nan's favourite football podcast
00:11Ken, to show where we bring you the latest news from around the Scottish Premiership
00:15in the SPFL. I'm your host Martin Simpson, joined once again by Lewis Anderson and John
00:20Creahan and we're going to be talking about last weekend's Scottish Cup semi-finals,
00:25a quick update on what's going on at Hibernian and we'll be talking about the latest injury
00:29issues facing Steve Clarke ahead of Scotland's trip to Germany for the Euros this summer.
00:36So let's start off with the Euros guys, sorry no, let's start off with the Scottish Cup
00:40guys, we'll come to the Euros at the end. Starting with the Celtic-Aberdeen game, first
00:46of all just, I think we can all agree, a brilliant game of football if you're a neutral, whereas
00:53I think if you're an Aberdeen or a Celtic fan, one that'll have had your nerves on edge
00:58for quite a while. But I think in this game, we could talk up how good a game of football
01:04was, I think we really need to be talking about the referee and the VAR once again unfortunately.
01:11Two fairly major decisions both that went in favour of Celtic, Liam Schill's penalty,
01:21I want to start, sorry Liam Schill's handball which could have been a penalty but was actually
01:25outside the box. So I think we need to talk about this first because this for me is my
01:31biggest frustration with the way football chooses to operate its video assistant referee
01:36technology compared to other sports. So the ref doesn't go and look at that on a monitor,
01:43the VAR just tells him because it's a fact, it's like okay this is a handball, we can
01:48tell you as a fact if it was in or outside the box, that is an interpretation. Fair enough,
01:54okay, I still think the referee should be deciding whether or not it actually is a handball
01:59even if it clearly was. The problem there is then that the VAR tells them that happened
02:06outside the box, so no penalty, so the referee goes okay, resume play, throw in to Celtic.
02:13Now if that had have been rugby just for example, the VAR would have said you should be restarting
02:18with a free kick on the edge of the box to Aberdeen which would have been a really strong
02:23goal scoring opportunity for them. John, any logic as to why they wouldn't do it that way,
02:29why they're choosing to do it this way that sees the ref being told to stay with a wrong
02:36decision effectively by his video assistant team? Oh bless, imagine trying to apply logic
02:42to football, come on. There is a logic there somewhere, it's quite complicated, they don't
02:48want to referee every incident in the game so therefore free kick decisions aren't you know
02:53supposed to be subject to review but you're right, natural justice in that situation says
02:58it's a clear handball, if the referee looks and says that's a clear handball right on the edge
03:03of the box, yeah let's restart with a free kick. Rugby's had longer to get their TMO,
03:08television match official thing in shape, it's still, as any Scotland fan can tell you, it's
03:15still bad, wrong decisions and this is where we come back with VAR and we've all written about
03:24this and spoken about this often enough and having spoken to enough footballers over the last year or
03:29so, none of them trust it at all. They all say the same thing, when that little guy puts his
03:38finger to the earpiece, when the ref does that they think oh no, what the hell is he going to
03:43come up with now, what reason are they going to find to rule this goal out, what reason are they
03:47going to find to award a penalty, how are they going to find a way not to penalise that clear
03:54handball, they've just, the players are at absolute breaking point with it, there's nothing,
03:59they always feel and they're always going to feel and coaches are always going to feel it goes
04:03against them, they're always going to feel that they get hard done by, we've seen it all season,
04:08the things that get reviewed and don't get reviewed, that's the biggest bugbear I think
04:14of supporters, it's not the ones where they go and make a decision on things, it's the ones where
04:18why didn't you even review that one, you haven't even reviewed that handball when it's been clear,
04:24when you gave one against us two weeks ago, three weeks ago, so listen it's in,
04:30on the one hand I get exactly what you mean because that's like natural justice,
04:34this is just a free kick but do you really want VAR involved in more decisions on the pitch given
04:40how bad they are and this is the problem, it's not necessarily the technology, it's not necessarily
04:48the time it takes, it's the quality of officials and the training they've had
04:52and I saw a really interesting thing that we can just digress a little bit about the
04:56Coventry City winner at Wembley and it's done for a toenail offside and somebody raised a
05:05very interesting point about the frame rates of the video footage saying it's never clear enough,
05:11it's never clear enough to know when the pass was actually played, the ball is a blur,
05:16so when was that pass paid, it could be a frame back in which case it's for its own side,
05:22you know, I think there's, we're still looking for in particularly in offside,
05:26we're looking for perfect with technology that doesn't give you perfect.
05:32Yeah, no that's actually a totally fair point, particularly the frame rate and the pass on the
05:38offside, I think that is a really interesting one because you saw in that Coventry City game,
05:42not really, that's probably one of the finest margins I've seen with these VAR offside goals
05:47and there have been some fine ones but yeah, I mean in terms of the other point, I just feel like
05:51no, I don't want VAR refereeing more of the game but if VAR has already looked at an incident
05:58and the outcome of that incident should be free kick to the attacking team, then yeah, it's like
06:03if VAR is looking for a penalty, no, it's not looking for a free kick, it's looking for a
06:07penalty but it realizes the correct decision is a free kick to the attacking team, then that should
06:12be awarded, it just seems like common sense to me. Moving on to the other incident, Lewis,
06:17Cameron Carter-Vickers brings down Junior Hoylet in the box, a stonewall penalty that is no one in
06:27the stadium seems to know what's going on, all the Aberdeen players think it's a penalty, all the
06:31Celtic players think it's a penalty, every supporter in there thinks it's a penalty and somehow that's
06:37a free kick to Celtic, do you want to play devil's advocate here please and explain to us why the
06:43decision was given that way, don't worry if you can't because I certainly can't. I think Martin,
06:48it's an interesting one, on first view and I thought penalty straight away, that was my initial
06:54reaction and didn't see what Don Robertson saw in the build-up, obviously flagged for the foul on
07:00Hoylet in the lead-up to it, it was just a bit bizarre, once again fans, as you quite rightly
07:09touched on, had no idea what had been given in the moment, I think Michael Stewart was particularly
07:17vocal as well around it on commentary duty, I think it was Alistair Johnson, wasn't it,
07:23committed the challenge on Hoylet in the build-up, so yeah, it was extremely weird circumstances in
07:31which the penalty wasn't awarded, as you said, clear contact from Kartavikas on the back of
07:39Hoylet's heel, it was just a really bizarre chain of events, I think Aberdeen did extremely well to
07:49not let that affect them, managed to force extra time, of course, through a brilliant goal,
07:58Hoylet's fantastic cross and a great header from Sochler, but yeah, it was a bizarre incident.
08:08Just to finish up on it, to be honest with you, just one final thing that I want to point out is,
08:13look, I'm not going to put a tinfoil hat on here and talk about conspiracies or anything like that,
08:18but look, for anyone that thinks that there isn't the potential for corruption in refereeing and
08:24football needs to remember what happened in Italy at the turn of the millennium or just a bit after
08:30that, it does happen, I'm not suggesting it's happened here, but it's not conspiracy-furious
08:37nonsense to suggest that somehow bigger clubs in a country can have an influence
08:43on the governing body and the refereeing. This season, Celtic and Rangers have both made pretty
08:50public or, well, yeah, completely public and transparent attacks on referees, they've released
08:56statements, the managers have been coming out, all sorts. I mean, to me, I don't know, does it feel
09:04like the referees have that in the back of their head that these clubs that clearly have the most
09:09sway and the most authority in this country, if big decisions are going against them, I don't
09:16trust referees in this country enough to be good enough at their job effectively to not let things
09:23like that sway them. Just right down to the last, the littlest minuscule things in that game,
09:28I've watched it back a few times, my take is when Joe Hart saves Killian Phillips' final penalty,
09:35Joe Hart comes off his line and that should have been retaken. Like the offside thing, John,
09:40with frame rates, it's a really difficult thing to pinpoint, but all I'll say is that
09:48the Joe Hart penalty that he took that hit the post, VAR spent, I think, a solid minute
09:55checking to see if Kelleros had come off his line and if that should have been retaken
09:58and spent less than 10 seconds to see if Joe Hart was off his line
10:03when it looked a really, if he wasn't off, he was only just not off.
10:11There was just so much in this game that just raises a lot of red flags for me.
10:15I don't think, I think conspiracy is probably over the top. I think there's just a question
10:22of competence. There's a question of influence and big decisions. Aberdeen have had a go at VAR
10:28and refs. Hibbs have had a go at VAR and refs. I don't think there's a manager who hasn't.
10:34The trick is to do it within the bounds of the law and not end up like Brendan Rodgers getting
10:39absolutely thumped for it because you've gone too far with it. That thing about penalties is
10:45really weird. I've watched, so penalty shirts, I was watching Man City the other night,
10:49watching Man United and it is really hit and miss now on when they enforce that.
10:56I meant to look up IFAB rules and see if there had been some sort of change because I've seen at
11:00least four goalkeepers be off their lines in penalty shootouts in the last five, six days alone.
11:09Because they got really sticklery about it. Remember David Marshall checking with the ref
11:14that night in Belgrade? They were real sticklers for it.
11:19Listen, the people at the top in charge of it just mess with the rules, don't they? They're
11:22just kind of, oh, well, we're going to do this now, we're going to do that. Oh, the tackle from
11:25behind is an automatic red card. Ah, well, it's not now because he got a bit of the ball. Oh,
11:29as long as you get the ball, it's fine. Oh, no, you got the ball, that's no excuse.
11:33You've gone with excessive force. Pit hate on that one, excessive force. You were out of control.
11:39Well, that's every slide tackle, you're out of control. If you're making a slide tackle,
11:42show me how you're in control. So, I think there are big issues going from the very top of
11:47football. It filters its way down. And then we've got a basic question of standards.
11:53We need to take a short break now, but we'll be right back.
12:06Welcome back. So, Lewis, let's just finish off. Let's talk a bit about the Rangers hearts games.
12:11Unfortunately for us, it was a much quieter game in a lot of aspects. Overall, a fairly
12:19comfortable win for Rangers hearts. Defended well for the most part. They did offer a bit
12:25of threat. They were just lacking in the final third. It felt like Rangers had plenty more
12:32chances. The scoreline could have been a bit more if they themselves had been a bit more clinical,
12:35but listen, overall, Rangers are in the final. After that defeat to Ross County,
12:43the mood in the camp, it just felt a bit, it was low, certainly. And now we're back to talking
12:49about a potential treble at Rangers. It's strange what seven days can do to a fan base. I was up at
13:03Dundee on Wednesday night as well, and you could tell there was a real fractious mood around the
13:10supporters. They did get behind the team, but there was a real sense of frustration immediately
13:17as soon as there wasn't an early goal. After 15 minutes, you felt that nervousness around the
13:24place. And they eventually didn't manage to go on and score in that match. So, yes,
13:31obviously, intense criticism heading into that semi-final on Sunday. In all credit to Rangers,
13:38I thought they responded really, really well. I was disappointed with Hearts.
13:42Martin took the majority of the first half to settle into the contest, offering very little
13:48going forward. Shankland, again, it was almost a carbon copy of the League Cup semi-final
13:54earlier in the season. I felt in terms of Hearts, Lauren Shankland dropping incredibly deep,
13:59didn't have much of a sniff around the box. And when he did, it was too late at that stage.
14:05Missing at the back post, I thought Rangers were good value for their win. Again, a couple of
14:12standout performers as well. A lot was made about the lack of leaders in this team,
14:17called out Conor Goldstone, John Lundstrom, Tavenier in midweek for not really rallying
14:25the troops, if you like, on the back of that disappointing result at Ross County.
14:30But this was much more like the kind of team that Philippe Clermont wants to see. I thought
14:37there was really positive moments. I thought Todd Catwell in particular was the standout player on
14:42the pitch. All of Rangers' best attack and play came through his kind of creative role in that
14:49number 10 pocket and behind the striker. I thought it was immense.
14:54Let's switch back to what's happening in the League now. As Lewis mentioned, title race
15:00probably going to go quite deep into the season, if not to the final day.
15:05Then third place, Hearts have basically sewn that up. If they haven't already,
15:10they've got the opportunity to do it pretty soon. The Livingston are as good as down,
15:15but 11th place still pretty much up for grabs. It's Hibbs we want to speak about, John.
15:20Even though there isn't really anything left for them to play for this season, there's a lot going
15:26on behind the scenes. We know Nick Montgomery needs to prove himself in these final matches,
15:31but just give us an update from what you've heard from what's happening at Hibernian Football Club.
15:36Give us a this week at Easter Road, please.
15:39This week at Easter Road could be mental, could be quiet. You never know with this club.
15:44There's interesting things going on behind the scenes. I think this review of football operations
15:49is well underway. The priority for them, I think, is to find the right person to be a director of
15:56football. They've already got a director of football at the moment, Brian McDermott. I
16:00think he will be given another different type role. That's what I've heard anyway,
16:04maybe a recruitment role. He may decide to move on somewhere. But if you know,
16:11this is Hibbs' fifth manager since Neil Lennon left in January 2019. So just over five years,
16:16the fifth manager. So it's not all about the manager. It's about the structure in there.
16:21The structure is not good. The people who are making the decisions have been making the decisions,
16:27have been making bad decisions, short-term decisions, decisions based on knee-jerk reactions,
16:34decisions, nothing like a strategic long-term plan in there. I know that's difficult in football
16:40because everyone's got a plan until they get a punch in the face.
16:44But there needs to be some sort of, this is how we work. We've got a proper director of football.
16:50We've got a system that works underneath it. We're not having influence or suggestions from
16:56on high or upstairs. This is how we do things. And they've got a model of how it should work,
17:03fortunately. Bournemouth. Bill Foley's coming in from Bournemouth, and that's exactly how
17:09they've worked. Richard Hughes has just joined Liverpool from Bournemouth as a technical director
17:14because of the work he did there. So all you do is you take a look at the model
17:19of what he did at Bournemouth and say, okay, we may not have the money, we might not have exact
17:22same depth of staff, but that's how we're going to do things.
17:29Fascinating. I mean, it's going to be a really, really interesting
17:33couple of weeks and like say, who knows what that football club is going to look like?
17:38Really interesting couple of weeks apart from the games, which have zero at will, honestly.
17:44Perth next Saturday. Ding!
17:48We'll see how up for those games Eli Juhan is.
17:53Let's finish off by talking about Scotland. More, even more injury problems for Steve
18:00Clarke as if we needed it. We've spoken about the problem we're going to have filling in a right
18:05back because Nathan Patterson's probably going to miss the Euros or almost certainly is. Aaron Hickey
18:11is very much 50-50, but it seems people seem to be quite pessimistic. We've now potentially got
18:18a wee issue in our attack in midfield options with no Lewis Ferguson's injury. Again, I appreciate
18:26it's been said that he's optimistic and there is a chance he could be fit in time, but with the
18:30nature of the injury he's suffered, it feels unlikely. I mean, what do you guys think? We're
18:37now no Ferguson, no Armstrong in terms of attack in midfield options. Obviously, John McGinnell
18:46played the most forward in the start in 11, but that leaves us what, Ryan Christie on the bench?
18:52Maybe Scott McTominay going in at that role if we really fancied it. What do you guys think, Lewis?
19:01It's intriguing, actually. I think playing McTominay further forwards could be an interesting
19:10proposition, personally. I think, obviously, you see when he plays for Manchester United that
19:18he always is looking to kind of drift forward, in my view. He's always looking to carry the ball
19:23forward. I would like to see him further up the field. That would be an interesting one for me.
19:29Of course, I think, put it this way, we're well-stocked in the midfield area. I know
19:36Armstrong. I'd look at Armstrong. Ferguson, in my view, is a top, top player. I feel as if he
19:44should have been given a chance during the two recent friendly games to kind of prove his worth.
19:49I don't think Ferguson, in my view, would be a starter in any of the three games at the Euros,
19:55in my personal opinion, whereas Armstrong would be kind of... He's always one of those players,
20:00isn't he? He seems to be on the fringes. I know Steve Clarke does rate him highly. He brings a
20:05lot of energy and drive to the midfield. I look at the other options he does have. He does have
20:12the likes of Kenny McLean, who can come in more than capable of playing slightly deeper and maybe
20:18allowing a McTominay to kind of push further forward. Even Billy Gilmore. I think he's got
20:25the kind of skill set where you could probably play him in a slightly more advanced role if you
20:32didn't want to. Well, just on that, John, before we come to you, I just want to pick up on one thing
20:37Louis said, is that we have such a strong midfield. But actually, this is the thing that's concerned
20:41me because I fully agreed with that until we took Ferguson and Armstrong out. I looked and I went,
20:47actually, who do we have beyond this core? Another thing Louis said I've always found
20:54interesting is what you get with Steve Clarke obviously sticking loyally to this group of
20:59players who have done so well for him. You don't get just handed an opportunity in this Scotland
21:05side. You really have to earn it. And in many ways, we've seen the positives of that. I think
21:11Ryan Porteous is a great example of what that does as someone who has to wait and wait and wait and
21:16wait for his opportunity. And then he gets thrown in at the deep end in a massive match against
21:21Ukraine. And he plays above himself in a man of the match performance because he knows this is
21:26my shot and I've got to take it. But conversely, like Louis said, we're now at a stage where
21:31we're potentially without two regular squad players in that team, Armstrong and Ferguson.
21:39Who else is it going to be? I mean, to me, the next person in line under Clarke,
21:45it would be David Turnbull. Yeah, it's complicated. I mean, I'm not overly concerned
21:49when you look at it because you've got, I think Cal McGregor coming back is massive. I think he's
21:54probably the most intelligent footballer playing in Scotland in the way he uses the ball and finds
21:59space. So McGregor, Gilmore is almost a dream partnership if you're playing the 3-4-2-1 thing.
22:08So they're the two more sitting midfielders. Then you're going to go McGinn and McTominay,
22:13I think. I think McTominay is just such a wild card bombing forward with McGinn.
22:20They've both got that same kind of chaos energy that they can bring to a game. I think Christie
22:26you mentioned is very interesting because Christie's actually played a little bit deeper
22:29at club level and kind of reinvented himself. Clarke likes him because he carries the ball,
22:34which is the same reason he likes Armstrong, ball carriers. Sometimes you're in pressure,
22:37just take it for a run, beat something and just take it for a run, relieve a bit of pressure on
22:42it. Once you get beyond that, yeah, this is the double-sided sort of keeping a tight squad,
22:49isn't it? You've not given a lot of opportunities to other people. Off the top of my head,
22:54I can't think of it. There's this whole point that you can't think of obvious ones.
22:59Ryan Gould, Lewis Morgan. I mean, this is where we're going.
23:02Yeah. Yeah. He's clearly taken a look and decided Ryan Gould is not his player.
23:08Ben Doak? Are we going to go crawling back to Elliot Anderson?
23:16What about Ross McCrory? Versatility.
23:21I put Ross McCrory over on this show not so long ago, Lewis, for his versatility,
23:26but Ross McCrory isn't an attacking midfielder. We'll have Kenny McLean. We don't need anything
23:32more in the deeper line of midfielders. We need someone who can be a bit of an x-factor
23:38and a bit further forward. That is all we've got time for this week.
23:43Thanks very much, guys. We'll be back next week with more FIBA Talk.
23:47Cheers.