The Future of User Experience with Mercedes' Dalal Elsheikh

MotorTrend

MotorTrend's Ed Loh & Jonny Lieberman sit down with MBRDNA Experience Designer

Transcript

00:00:00Welcome to The Inevitable, a podcast by Motor Trend.

00:00:15Hi there, and welcome to another episode of The Inevitable.

00:00:19This is the Motor Trend podcast, the Motor Trend Vodcast,

00:00:22where we talk about the future of the car,

00:00:24the future of everything.

00:00:25And today, really just the future,

00:00:27because we've got a very interesting guest

00:00:29who spends all of her time thinking

00:00:31about exactly that, the future.

00:00:33But before then, my buddy Ed here,

00:00:35he's got a message for you.

00:00:36The Inevitable Vodcast is brought to you

00:00:38by the all-electric Nissan Ariya,

00:00:40inspired by the future, designed for the now.

00:00:44And yes, we are about to talk to a UX designer

00:00:49from a very large company known as Mercedes-Benz, Research

00:00:52and Development North America.

00:00:55Her name is Dalal Elsheikh.

00:00:57I think I got that right?

00:00:58Not really, but close enough.

00:01:00And she has an amazing resume of professional life experiences

00:01:08for someone so young, as we'll talk about.

00:01:11But she's one of our ArtCenter friends.

00:01:13Yes.

00:01:13So that's our goal, is to get everyone who's

00:01:15ever gone to ArtCenter right here on this podcast.

00:01:17Yes.

00:01:19You might have seen her.

00:01:20She's a little bit all over social media

00:01:22for hosting Hot Wheels Ultimate Challenge.

00:01:24She was a judge, yeah.

00:01:25She was a judge.

00:01:26Co-host, judge, along with our pal Rutledge Wood.

00:01:30She has multiple degrees in industrial design

00:01:33and transportation design.

00:01:35She's from New Jersey, originally educated out there

00:01:39at New Jersey Institute of Technology,

00:01:41and has done work at the Ford Motor Company,

00:01:45advanced autonomous vehicle designer.

00:01:48She's done Peugeot contract work.

00:01:50She did work for the LA Metro system

00:01:53on the future user experience of the bus.

00:01:55She did something with Under Armour for some shoes.

00:02:00She worked with Waymo.

00:02:03And now she's helping this large German car company

00:02:07navigate their way in user experience.

00:02:12We're going to talk to her in just a second.

00:02:14Before that, we are going to talk about, though,

00:02:16the question of the episode.

00:02:18And it comes from, this is actually

00:02:20a second time question asker.

00:02:22And it's a great question.

00:02:23Our man, Forza Motor Car, what is his?

00:02:27Smith.

00:02:28Alan Smith, who hit us up on Instagram DMs.

00:02:33And his question is related to just the couple

00:02:36previous episodes ago.

00:02:38With all the talk from GM Energy and the Mobility House

00:02:41and others about smart charging from your home and battery

00:02:43management, how is this extra use

00:02:45going to impact battery life and degradation?

00:02:49This is a good question.

00:02:50If the EV battery is designed for use in the car,

00:02:52but are now suddenly are being charged and discharged

00:02:54far more often, will this become an issue?

00:02:58Do you think auto manufacturers will adjust their warranty

00:03:02on batteries based on non-use?

00:03:04Is there a software solution, et cetera, et cetera?

00:03:06This is fantastic.

00:03:07So we're told, try to avoid charging to 100%.

00:03:13You want to really keep the buffer in there.

00:03:16Don't discharge below, I don't know, 10%,

00:03:20something like that.

00:03:21And if your battery is suddenly part of the Borg that

00:03:25is part of the smart grid, if they

00:03:29want to store energy in there, are you charging it to 100%?

00:03:33Are you discharging it?

00:03:34If your car is helping to prevent a brownout,

00:03:38and it's like it needs an extra 5%,

00:03:40is that going to affect the life of your battery?

00:03:42Also, the number of charge cycles.

00:03:44If you're like, hey, I'm going to leave this plugged in,

00:03:46and it's a nice way to generate a little money,

00:03:49that's a great question.

00:03:50I think the obvious answer is, yeah, it's

00:03:53going to age your battery, charging and discharging.

00:03:57I think I have three answers.

00:03:59First, and let me put my Wade Sheffer and Asim Kapoor

00:04:03head, the guys from GM Energy, which

00:04:05is that system of bidirectional charging

00:04:07that we talked about with that Silverado example, or Equinox

00:04:11EV, or Blazer EV, that was kind of an emergency situation.

00:04:14So power outage, plug your car in, everything's fine.

00:04:19I wasn't talking about that.

00:04:21I was talking about daily using your battery.

00:04:23Right, which then I would put on my Greg Hinter and Zoe hat

00:04:28on and say, well, they'll tell you load management at scale

00:04:33with multiple users, residential and commercial,

00:04:37and hundreds, thousands of people.

00:04:40They probably have a software solution

00:04:42where they're managing to either a certain percentage

00:04:45or that's taken out of your battery.

00:04:49During a peak usage time where you can make the most money,

00:04:51probably keeping in mind short-term and long-term

00:04:54battery health, maybe.

00:04:57But then I'd also just back up and rely

00:04:59on probably a good time to read about the warranty

00:05:02situation on any new EV you're buying.

00:05:04Because a lot of these vehicles, whether they're gas or electric,

00:05:08have powertrain warranties.

00:05:09And the motors and the batteries are included.

00:05:12And battery cost and long-term reliability,

00:05:18these are all big front-of-mind questions for purchasers.

00:05:20And so a lot of these car companies are, yeah,

00:05:22your battery is warrantied for 10 years or 150,000 miles.

00:05:25So it probably doesn't affect it.

00:05:27Because if something happens and you're still within warranty,

00:05:30assuming the manufacturer.

00:05:32They might also say, oh, you're doing bidirectional.

00:05:35They might write you out of that.

00:05:38I would say that, again, the number, what hurts a battery?

00:05:42Charging and discharging it.

00:05:43So the more you do that, the more it wears the battery.

00:05:46I just think that's a given fact.

00:05:48But there's probably a software solution.

00:05:50So read the T's and C's.

00:05:52You're still wearing the battery out.

00:05:53Read the T's and C's.

00:05:54And most Americans get rid of these new cars

00:05:56after three or four years.

00:05:57Anyways, you're probably going to get it.

00:05:57Yeah, lease it.

00:05:58Who cares?

00:05:58Yes.

00:05:59All right.

00:06:00Actually, be careful with lease.

00:06:01I just turned into a lease guy.

00:06:02I got the surprise bill at the end.

00:06:05Anyways, Alan, excellent question.

00:06:07Thank you so much.

00:06:08Swag is on the way, just not super soon.

00:06:10We've got to get it all together and ship it off to you.

00:06:12If you have a question you want answered on this episode,

00:06:15on this podcast, hit us up.

00:06:17It looks like Instagram DMs are the best way.

00:06:19So at lowdown on Instagram.

00:06:21Johnny Lieberman.

00:06:22Johnny Lieberman, no H.

00:06:24On Instagram.

00:06:25Thank you.

00:06:26All right, and let's bring Dalal on.

00:06:28Dalal Elsheikh.

00:06:29Thank you so much for coming.

00:06:31How'd I do?

00:06:32Did great.

00:06:32OK.

00:06:33Good job.

00:06:33Fantastic.

00:06:34It was Elsheikh.

00:06:36It is destiny that you are here to talk to us.

00:06:41It was fated because, first of all,

00:06:43you are an ArtCenter alum.

00:06:45And we call this the unofficial ArtCenter podcast

00:06:48because we've had so many ArtCenter designers on here.

00:06:52And we're going to get Stuart Reid at some point.

00:06:55And then we've also had a number of your pals

00:06:57from Hot Wheels Ultimate Challenge on,

00:07:00including Rutledge Wood, who is the host.

00:07:04And he's from episode 47 of our podcast.

00:07:06We had Sung Kang.

00:07:08He was episode two.

00:07:10We had Jay Leno.

00:07:12He was episode 41.

00:07:13And we also had Joel McHale, episode 68.

00:07:15So you're like episode, I think, 86 or so, or whatever?

00:07:19No, she's going to be like 90.

00:07:21No, no, no, no, I did the math.

00:07:22Oh, is this an order of importance, Scott?

00:07:24No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:07:25Chronological.

00:07:26Yes, yes.

00:07:28But thank you so much for coming on.

00:07:30Yeah, thanks for having me.

00:07:32This is literally, I was looking all over social media.

00:07:36I was like, oh, we should talk to her.

00:07:38She's done a lot, which we're going

00:07:41to talk a little bit about.

00:07:43I just want to know what it's like living in the future,

00:07:46because that's what you do, right?

00:07:49You are an automotive designer, industrial designer,

00:07:52primarily doing automotive UX, user experience work.

00:07:59And you currently work for Mercedes-Benz Research

00:08:02and Development, North America, right?

00:08:05So what's it like?

00:08:07What's your day-to-day?

00:08:09It's a lot of fun, but it can also be very frustrating,

00:08:11as you can imagine.

00:08:13It's a ton of fun, because I work in the advanced studio.

00:08:16So we are very concept-driven.

00:08:18And because we are thinking about the future all the time,

00:08:21we get to have these huge ideas and think

00:08:23about new technologies.

00:08:24And we go to CES every year and scope out

00:08:26what everyone's talking about, what people are developing,

00:08:29and how we can use that in and outside of our cars.

00:08:31So that's a ton of fun, because it's just thought experiments

00:08:34every day.

00:08:35But of course, it can be really frustrating,

00:08:37because if you're too far out, then everybody else,

00:08:39especially the people paying the bills,

00:08:41go, all right, let's reel it in.

00:08:43What's the point of this?

00:08:44Nobody's going to want that.

00:08:45That's not street legal.

00:08:46We can't do this.

00:08:47So it's a give and take.

00:08:49But it's a good time, because it's also a small studio.

00:08:51So you can imagine, when you're only like eight designers,

00:08:54you can just bounce insane ideas off of each other.

00:08:56And how far in the future are you?

00:09:00That really depends on whatever the company's strategy

00:09:02at the time.

00:09:03So a few years ago, I was working for the Ford Motor

00:09:06Company, where I was an advanced autonomous vehicle designer.

00:09:09And at that time, everyone was thinking about autonomy.

00:09:12So then we were in the 2030s, the 2040s.

00:09:15Now, that's kind of died out.

00:09:17No one's really talking about entirely self-driving

00:09:20experiences anymore.

00:09:21So you reel it into, OK, what's happening in the next 10 years,

00:09:25maybe the next five years even.

00:09:26OK, so five to 10 years is sort of the time frame

00:09:29you're worried about.

00:09:30On Ford, let me just ask, I'm driving an F-150 Lightning

00:09:33right now.

00:09:34Did you have anything to do with any of the screens

00:09:36when I go to Blue Cruise?

00:09:37No, I did not.

00:09:39That's too close.

00:09:40Yes.

00:09:41You were out there for a while.

00:09:42OK.

00:09:43Interesting that you say, because I feel like we,

00:09:45just this podcast now is in its third year.

00:09:48Just in the time that we've been going,

00:09:51we have seen that shift away from everybody

00:09:53saying autonomous is coming around the corner.

00:09:55Everyone's like, it's a little bit farther out than you think.

00:09:58Although some people, like Kia, for instance, I was like,

00:10:00so wait, when are you going to have this level four?

00:10:02And like, 2028.

00:10:05I go, really?

00:10:06They go, 2028.

00:10:07And they're one of those, they seem

00:10:10to do what they say companies, unlike some others we

00:10:12can mention.

00:10:13That means that we'll be hailing autonomous Kias at the LA

00:10:17Olympics.

00:10:18I mean, could be.

00:10:20Or not.

00:10:20Yeah, so autonomy is a funny one, where it's like,

00:10:25I remember a couple of years ago, BMW was like,

00:10:30you know what?

00:10:30It's just never going to happen.

00:10:32We had 50 of the smartest people in Germany

00:10:34think about it for a decade and not happening.

00:10:36And then, again, Kia is like, no, it's happening, four years.

00:10:39Don't worry about it.

00:10:40Right, yeah.

00:10:40It really depends on the strategy.

00:10:42Every company's got their own idea.

00:10:44I also, I believe that it's very possible to do full autonomy.

00:10:48It's actually the middle ground, where

00:10:50it's partial autonomy, partial human control that's

00:10:53really difficult.

00:10:54Yeah, sure.

00:10:54Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:10:55It's like a hybrid.

00:10:57Two powertrains when one would work.

00:10:59And it's also the philosophical questions

00:11:01that people are having a problem with.

00:11:03Like, if your system is really good,

00:11:05but it's still not perfect, and you have a human standing by,

00:11:08how are you going to ensure the human's paying attention?

00:11:11Because you're essentially training

00:11:12them to not pay attention, because they're just

00:11:14sitting there like, when do I take over?

00:11:15When do I take over?

00:11:16Right.

00:11:16So it's, yeah, it's a little bit tricky.

00:11:19And Waymo had this problem years ago,

00:11:20where they had their engineers actually sitting

00:11:22behind the wheel of their fully autonomous vehicles,

00:11:24but they had to fire so many of them

00:11:25because they watched on the camera,

00:11:27and they're all on their phones.

00:11:28Right, yeah, exactly.

00:11:30But that's kind of the point, is you don't need a driver.

00:11:33Yeah.

00:11:33Speaking of, that is a great example,

00:11:35kind of a lead-in to where I want to go.

00:11:38Yeah, we'll just start there.

00:11:40Because you just said you're kind of in the 10 to, say,

00:11:4410 to 15 year time horizon right now with the stuff

00:11:47you're working on.

00:11:47And I know that you can't get into detail, per se,

00:11:50but are we going to be fully on screens

00:11:55in the car in this future, whether it's our phone?

00:11:58Or everybody now has a multi-information display,

00:12:02like a central screen.

00:12:03Is this, as much as you can talk about, in the view,

00:12:07or is there something else coming?

00:12:09Or because of chatbots, we're just

00:12:11going to be laying back in our seats

00:12:12and talking to the car and telling it to do things?

00:12:16You're laughing, but you're not too far off.

00:12:19I mean, this is a big point of contention

00:12:21for a lot of people, designers especially,

00:12:23where we know that the way that design is going

00:12:26is everything's a screen.

00:12:27There are some S-classes that have seven screens in them.

00:12:30No one actually needs seven screens, right?

00:12:33But as much as users are asking for physical buttons

00:12:36and physicality and things that are more tactile,

00:12:38we're also moving into this AI-driven kind of realm

00:12:42where things are now speech and voice-based,

00:12:44where you can sit back and just talk to your car.

00:12:47Or perhaps it's some kind of off-screen experience.

00:12:52Like, if you saw the concept for the Vision 111,

00:12:55they actually, my studio did an AR experience in that car.

00:12:59And I think BMW also just released an AR experience

00:13:01over at CES.

00:13:02So there's a lot of that coming,

00:13:04where it's actually off-screen, but still very digital.

00:13:07ARs, augmented reality.

00:13:08Like, you're just lobbing them up.

00:13:10So do you believe AR?

00:13:11Like, AR being windshield kind of stuff, or projection?

00:13:17I mean, I just drove the new Audi Q6,

00:13:21and man, that augmented reality,

00:13:23they have the new version in there.

00:13:24Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:25Like what?

00:13:26What is it?

00:13:27Describe it.

00:13:28It just works really well.

00:13:29Like, it's doing video game graphic gestures

00:13:33that are like, go there.

00:13:35You know what I mean?

00:13:36Like, it's a blue arrow.

00:13:38On what?

00:13:38On the windshield.

00:13:39And it's crisp and clear.

00:13:41Yeah, I see it through polarized glasses.

00:13:42But it's like, the air, it just,

00:13:46it was just so intuitive that you didn't think much of it.

00:13:48But it's like, you've got big blue arrows

00:13:51and things happening.

00:13:52And this is what you're kind of,

00:13:53the future you're kind of working on?

00:13:55I think that's part of the future, yeah, for sure.

00:13:57And there's so many automakers that are doing that now.

00:14:01I think there's a lot of reason to actually get off

00:14:04of just this screen display that we have.

00:14:07Okay.

00:14:08So that is kind of the question I was,

00:14:11again, this is awesome.

00:14:12You're kind of nailing all these things

00:14:14I wanted to talk about.

00:14:15How much of your brain power is devoted to

00:14:20like hardware and physical interaction

00:14:24versus like controls in the car,

00:14:26versus thinking about the software,

00:14:28the screens, the voice command,

00:14:30the stuff that you're kind of imagining in front of you

00:14:32or happening virtually, VR, AR?

00:14:36Like, is it more one, the other, or is it all of it?

00:14:40Yeah, it's definitely more the digital side.

00:14:42It's definitely more the screen-based

00:14:44kind of digital interaction.

00:14:45As an experienced designer,

00:14:46of course we do physical experiences as well.

00:14:49But just because of the state of the design world right now,

00:14:52no one in production is really producing

00:14:54for more physical, tactile experiences anymore.

00:14:57Okay.

00:14:58Do you have any kind of workflow

00:15:04or thought process about work?

00:15:08So, let's come to context.

00:15:09Motor Trend is trying to figure out

00:15:11how do we evaluate all these screens that are in the cars?

00:15:13Because everybody has one, or two, or 10, or seven,

00:15:16and they're all different, and they all do different things,

00:15:18and some are more frustrating than others.

00:15:20And it's things like, hey, I want to play a song on Spotify.

00:15:25How many menu swipes do I have to hit?

00:15:28How many button pushes?

00:15:29Is this kind of in your workflow?

00:15:34Yeah, definitely, definitely.

00:15:35But I also, I think one critical component to evaluating that

00:15:39is how many people are not actually just getting in their car

00:15:41and using CarPlay.

00:15:43So many people are not even using the native systems

00:15:45that are in their cars.

00:15:46Right.

00:15:47Do you have a position on that?

00:15:48Do you like CarPlay?

00:15:49I like CarPlay.

00:15:50I use CarPlay all the time, but I am a big believer

00:15:53that automakers should fully design

00:15:55their infotainment digital experiences

00:15:57so that people don't want to use CarPlay.

00:16:00We should make our systems better than the Apple system

00:16:03that you plug in, bring your own device in.

00:16:06It's interesting, because I know some people on staff

00:16:09and other people I know, they're like,

00:16:11I won't buy a car unless it has CarPlay.

00:16:14Well, that's the population.

00:16:15I think some of you, 80% of new car shoppers

00:16:17will not consider it.

00:16:18Something like that.

00:16:19But I also, I don't like CarPlay.

00:16:22I mean, I like the map.

00:16:24I like the map, but the music interface stinks.

00:16:26And I don't know, I just, I want to see what the car,

00:16:30I want to be looking at what's happening on the car.

00:16:32I don't need, I don't want to know about text messages,

00:16:35you know, any of that stuff.

00:16:36So, and maybe it's an age thing.

00:16:38I'm on the older side of things now.

00:16:40It's also a Rivian thing, because you can't have it anyway.

00:16:41Well, I drive my Rivian like,

00:16:43I drive my Rivian like once every two months.

00:16:45I drive a press car every day.

00:16:47That's such a beautiful infotainment system.

00:16:49The Rivian?

00:16:50Yeah, I drove the R1T for about a week.

00:16:53I, a friend of the show, Shaheen Karimi,

00:16:55and let me borrow his, his Rivian for about a week.

00:16:59Yeah, yeah.

00:17:00And he got a new Rivian last week.

00:17:01I know.

00:17:02And I'm very jealous.

00:17:03I know, I told him I'd bring him up on the show.

00:17:05Nice.

00:17:06That was great.

00:17:07So I got to drive his car.

00:17:08I didn't even think about not having CarPlay,

00:17:09because their system is so great.

00:17:11I always tell people, you know,

00:17:13as everyone thinks, like, I pay Rivian, Ed.

00:17:18I pay them every month.

00:17:19I get nothing.

00:17:20Rivian, he says shill.

00:17:20Rivian, shill.

00:17:21I pay them a lot of money.

00:17:22It's not a cheap truck, but man,

00:17:24their software is just, it's,

00:17:26I think is at the top of the pyramid right now.

00:17:27It's just, it's just, yeah.

00:17:29And, and again, it gives you so much,

00:17:31you get so much information about the vehicle

00:17:33you're driving that I don't,

00:17:35if I just had a dumb Google map or Apple map there,

00:17:37I wouldn't want that.

00:17:38I want, I want to see my, my motor temps and my battery

00:17:41and charging info and all that.

00:17:42And it's frustrating to have to switch out of CarPlay

00:17:45to go back into your vehicle's UI

00:17:48and then go back into CarPlay.

00:17:49They don't integrate very well together.

00:17:51It's either one takes over or there's nothing at all.

00:17:54And I think part of the problem is a lot of car companies

00:17:56make you subscribe to their navigation system.

00:17:58And a lot of people don't want to do that.

00:18:00Why would I do that if I could have a free,

00:18:01just my CarPlay app?

00:18:02Yeah, and by the way, Google and Apple maps are really good.

00:18:05Yeah.

00:18:06They are really, really good, yeah.

00:18:07Well, so let me, let me challenge you on that

00:18:09because you said, which I think it's,

00:18:10I think it's absolutely correct.

00:18:12You should want, I mean,

00:18:14these are car manufacturers, man.

00:18:15These have been like the global powerhouse industry

00:18:18for every major, you know, at least in the West,

00:18:21Western country, you know, China is getting in the mix.

00:18:24This is like almost a point of national pride,

00:18:27but can a car manufacturer compete and deliver

00:18:31that in-car user experience that rivals a phone?

00:18:35Given that a phone is, it's being updated, like,

00:18:38you know, new product releases on phones

00:18:39are like 12 to 18 months.

00:18:41That's their product cycle.

00:18:43They've had software designers doing, you know,

00:18:47all the things that these software-defined

00:18:49vehicle manufacturers are trying to do.

00:18:50They've had a 20-year headstart.

00:18:53Like, is that, is it possible that a company

00:18:56like Mercedes-Benz can beat Apple

00:19:00in an in-vehicle user experience?

00:19:03I think it's possible.

00:19:04I think it's possible.

00:19:05Maybe not so much in the near future,

00:19:06just because we are all so used to our phones

00:19:09and just the company makeup of a lot of these OEMs

00:19:13doesn't really lend itself to that quick turnover

00:19:15of new UI and new UX systems.

00:19:17But I think it's very possible,

00:19:18especially if we lean into just brand heritage.

00:19:21You should love the car that you're getting so much

00:19:23that you want to experience it even in the digital form

00:19:26and not just kind of sterilize it out with your CarPlay.

00:19:30Did you see, I'm just curious,

00:19:31did you see yesterday the new Bugatti Tourbillon debuted?

00:19:35I did not.

00:19:36And they went hard in the opposite direction.

00:19:39I forget about CarPlay.

00:19:40There's not a, like the Chiron didn't have a screen either,

00:19:43but the gauges are, it's just watch parts.

00:19:45It's literally, I think it was Jacob and Co,

00:19:47but they're not saying,

00:19:48but they had a watchmaker.

00:19:49All the instruments are just, it looks like-

00:19:50Well, the car's name is Tourbillon, right?

00:19:52Tourbillon, well, it means whirlwind in French.

00:19:54But anyways, and so it's like,

00:19:57you know, do you, again, looking in the future

00:19:59and how, you know, I get my weekly screen report

00:20:02and want to just punch myself in the face.

00:20:04Oh, same.

00:20:04It's horrible.

00:20:05More hours than there are in the day.

00:20:06In the day, yeah.

00:20:07It's horrible.

00:20:08But like, do you see a future where it's like

00:20:10the car becomes a refuge from the phone?

00:20:13I think so.

00:20:14I think there's also an era right now where,

00:20:16and this has always been a thing,

00:20:17where we lean into nostalgia

00:20:19and people are buying these older vehicles.

00:20:20I drive a 1989 Toyota MR2.

00:20:24You do?

00:20:25There's nary a screen in there.

00:20:26And it's great.

00:20:27Oh, there's nary anything in there.

00:20:29What color?

00:20:30It's a super red.

00:20:31Oh, wow.

00:20:32Yeah, man.

00:20:33SW10, right?

00:20:34That's a good, yeah.

00:20:34SW, no, AW11.

00:20:35Hey, sorry, AW, yes.

00:20:37All right, come on, Sport Compact.

00:20:38Hey, hey, hey.

00:20:40Sorry, I did this like super late at night.

00:20:45And you just work for Sport Compact.

00:20:47I think we actually may have our designer for our dumb car.

00:20:51My billion dollar.

00:20:52Yes, Ed wants to build a dumb car.

00:20:53This is my billion dollar new car startup,

00:20:57which is a car that you buy once,

00:21:00there's no subscription, there's no screens,

00:21:03it just uses keys, there's nothing to subscribe to,

00:21:08it doesn't remember your name or anything.

00:21:10Oh, I love that.

00:21:11I don't need my car to know my name.

00:21:13Right, right.

00:21:13I really don't need it.

00:21:14I had this funny thing,

00:21:15so I just got picked up today,

00:21:17but I had a Lexus LX600, wonderful car,

00:21:20great, blah, blah, Land Cruiser.

00:21:22Constantly, it was like, enter your six digit PIN,

00:21:25and I asked Lexus, I'm like, what's the PIN?

00:21:27They're like, we don't know.

00:21:29So like, you're going, and then it pops up,

00:21:31disconnects CarPlay, interrupts what you're listening to,

00:21:34wants the PIN, it was like this glitchy thing.

00:21:36Oh, wow.

00:21:37And it's like, why would you ever have a PIN

00:21:38in a car, I already have a key, I don't need a PIN.

00:21:40Yeah, yeah.

00:21:42And do different users have different PINs?

00:21:43I have no idea, it was just an annoyance.

00:21:46I asked one person, I go, do you know the PIN?

00:21:48No, I was like, all right, I'll just deal with it.

00:21:50Probably 5555, that's the one for Ford.

00:21:52I don't know what it was, but look,

00:21:54that's the problem with press cars,

00:21:55is the cart goes away, so I know about it for a week,

00:21:58and then it's not my problem anymore.

00:22:00Right.

00:22:03Just to break it down, you just said previously UI and UX,

00:22:07what is the, this is a dumb question,

00:22:10what's the difference from your perspective?

00:22:12Yeah, so UX is the structure, how the thing is built,

00:22:16how it works.

00:22:18User experience.

00:22:18Yeah, how you move around the digital screen

00:22:23or between apps, if there are even apps.

00:22:25The UI is how it looks.

00:22:27Is it shiny, is it flat, is it 3D, that's the UI.

00:22:31What do the buttons look like?

00:22:32Okay, and then can you tell us in your day-to-day,

00:22:38are you in front of a screen,

00:22:39you're working on a Wacom tablet, are you drawing?

00:22:42Are you in a design book?

00:22:43Are you talking to software engineers,

00:22:47or what's the day-to-day?

00:22:50Yeah, all of the above, minus,

00:22:53not so much with the software engineers,

00:22:55because we work in concepting,

00:22:57but yeah, I'm in front of a screen.

00:22:58When we start with ideation, we come up with our ideas.

00:23:02Sometimes we do a lot of sketching,

00:23:03because sometimes our UI is in 3D,

00:23:05so then I can tap into my industrial design background

00:23:08and actually build out forms and sculptures and stuff,

00:23:11and then bring that into a screen,

00:23:12whether it's on a 2D interface like Figma,

00:23:15where I'm building out screens and buttons,

00:23:16or I'm actually in a 3D modeling software

00:23:18and actually building out three-dimensional shapes

00:23:22that need shadows and lights and highlights.

00:23:24So wait a second, you weren't transportation design?

00:23:26You were industrial design at our center?

00:23:27My undergrad degree from New Jersey

00:23:30is in industrial design.

00:23:31My graduate degree from Art Center is in transportation.

00:23:34You were in transportation.

00:23:35How long is a graduate program at Art Center?

00:23:38It is six terms, including the summer terms,

00:23:42so it's two years, but I did it in three,

00:23:44because I took time off to intern.

00:23:45It was also COVID times.

00:23:46I was not trying to graduate during COVID.

00:23:49COVID's weird.

00:23:50How was it? So, NJIT, right?

00:23:53How was it?

00:23:54We had a couple of undergraduates from Art Center,

00:23:58so they told us, like, oh, my God,

00:23:59the first year, we just drew circles

00:24:02and then we just drew squares for, like, two semesters,

00:24:05right, or whatever.

00:24:06Terms.

00:24:07Terms.

00:24:08How was it coming in to Art Center?

00:24:10As an industrial designer.

00:24:11Yeah, already having gone through

00:24:13a different kind of design program.

00:24:15Yeah, it definitely helped a lot.

00:24:17Most of my cohort came from industrial design,

00:24:19so it was really helpful to already have

00:24:21that sketching background,

00:24:23so you kind of knew the principles of design,

00:24:25light and shadow, unity, composition, all of that.

00:24:29We did also have some students who came in

00:24:31from things like engineering,

00:24:32and you could definitely see that they had

00:24:34a little bit of a harder time,

00:24:35especially when it came to the visual skills,

00:24:37but then they killed us when it came to, like,

00:24:39strategy and business development classes.

00:24:42Oh, man.

00:24:43Yeah, blew us out of the water.

00:24:44Okay, that's funny.

00:24:45And when you were an undergrad,

00:24:46were you thinking cars?

00:24:48Like, you knew you wanted to do cars?

00:24:50That's a great question.

00:24:51I didn't know what I wanted to do

00:24:53when I was first in undergrad.

00:24:54I think it was-

00:24:55Good, that's my favorite answer.

00:24:56It was halfway through where I was like,

00:24:57okay, there are certain products that I really like,

00:25:00and it was cars and sneakers.

00:25:02Oh, okay.

00:25:02Those were my two things.

00:25:03Okay.

00:25:04And I saw, I think they have a lot

00:25:06of the same form language.

00:25:07They get carved out like sculptures in very similar ways,

00:25:11and then I decided that because I felt like

00:25:13there was just more technology in automotive

00:25:16that I wanted to go that way.

00:25:17But then actually, when I got to grad school,

00:25:19I did my thesis in space transportation.

00:25:22Excuse me?

00:25:22Yeah.

00:25:23Like lunar rover?

00:25:24Taking people to Mars, yeah.

00:25:25So wheels or wings or jets, which ones?

00:25:28Jets, yeah, jets and wings.

00:25:31Rockets.

00:25:31I was thinking about the seven month travel

00:25:33from Earth to Mars.

00:25:35Space habitats.

00:25:36Would you go to Mars knowing it takes seven months?

00:25:38It's not the seven months that's the problem.

00:25:40It's the toilet situation.

00:25:42Oh, I know, yeah.

00:25:43I can't do that.

00:25:44That's why you go to the South Pole.

00:25:44I'm not, yeah.

00:25:45We just, our last, yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:25:48I can't pee into a funnel.

00:25:49I'm not doing that.

00:25:50I like where this is coming from.

00:25:52Yeah.

00:25:53Exactly.

00:25:54So how come you didn't end up at like, SpaceX?

00:25:56Like, that seems to be, you have some

00:25:59very applicable skills.

00:26:00We can open up this trauma of me applying to jobs.

00:26:04When I first graduated grad school,

00:26:05they were like, actually, you need 10 years of experience

00:26:08if you want to work here.

00:26:09So yeah, it was struggle city.

00:26:12I talked to SpaceX.

00:26:13I talked to Blue Origin, which I still think is great.

00:26:16I did an internship at a small startup

00:26:19called Stellar Amenities.

00:26:21I even spoke to an astronaut by the name of Story Musgraves

00:26:24who flew on all five space shuttles.

00:26:26Yeah.

00:26:27He was a cool cat.

00:26:29I know the name, yeah.

00:26:30Yeah.

00:26:31I think he even like fixed the lens on the Hubble telescope,

00:26:33like did a space walk and everything.

00:26:35Very cool guy.

00:26:36Which is wild.

00:26:37Yeah.

00:26:38But then you did land at Ford?

00:26:39Yeah, yeah.

00:26:40Then I went to Detroit, Michigan.

00:26:44Dearborn.

00:26:45That's where-

00:26:46Detroit, actually.

00:26:47Oh, okay, so-

00:26:48Yeah, because I was at D Ford,

00:26:50and we had, if you're familiar with Detroit,

00:26:52we had a studio called The Factory in Corktown.

00:26:55And that's where they did the Mach-E screen.

00:26:59Was it The Factory, right?

00:27:00Oh, I wasn't there when they did that.

00:27:02If they did that, I wasn't there for that.

00:27:02I believe they made a big deal about

00:27:04they did it away from Dearborn.

00:27:06Oh, okay, okay.

00:27:06They tried to make this modern future.

00:27:08Who was the big boss of design at the time?

00:27:10Was it design?

00:27:11Was you working fundamentally out of the design studio?

00:27:14Yes.

00:27:15Well, I was working out of what was called the,

00:27:19oh, what was it called?

00:27:20Ford Drive.

00:27:21Okay.

00:27:22And then we had the Autonomy LLC

00:27:26that I now can't remember the name of because it died.

00:27:29But it was under Frank-

00:27:30Argo.

00:27:31No, Argo was our partner.

00:27:33But we were under Frank Louis Victor,

00:27:35who, maybe this doesn't make the cut,

00:27:39but he was fired because he domestically abused his wife.

00:27:42Oh, yay, yay.

00:27:43And then he got arrested.

00:27:44Oh, yeah, there it is.

00:27:47Public record, I don't know.

00:27:49Maybe that doesn't make it.

00:27:51Ford Next.

00:27:52Ford Next, right, right, right.

00:27:54Okay, okay, so that,

00:27:57okay, so that doesn't report to design.

00:27:59Okay, interesting.

00:28:00But we also had a company in there called Ford Drive.

00:28:03And they worked, we worked in the Mock E's

00:28:05to actually create an Uber kind of system

00:28:07that actually launched in Miami.

00:28:10Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:28:11Did you like Detroit?

00:28:13I loved Detroit.

00:28:14I miss Detroit dearly.

00:28:16Because you're now in San Diego?

00:28:17Yeah.

00:28:18And you love San Diego?

00:28:20Mm-hmm.

00:28:21Nice.

00:28:21Slightly better weather, better fish tacos.

00:28:23Yeah, the weather is definitely great every time.

00:28:25Way better surf, way better Mexican food.

00:28:26Better fish tacos.

00:28:27I'm scared of the ocean.

00:28:28Okay.

00:28:29Oh, interesting.

00:28:30I'm terrified of the ocean.

00:28:30I don't, I'm not, why are you scared of the ocean?

00:28:32Oh, there are sharks in there.

00:28:33That's what I say.

00:28:34That's their home.

00:28:35My wife's always trying to get me to go in the ocean.

00:28:36I'm like, but that's where the sharks are.

00:28:38This guy surfs every day.

00:28:39No, all my coworkers surf.

00:28:41Yeah.

00:28:41Yeah, and there are stingrays.

00:28:42We just had a shark attack in Del Mar.

00:28:44Yeah, yeah.

00:28:45All stale land.

00:28:46The thing I'm afraid about for San Diego

00:28:48is the water quality,

00:28:49because there's a big situation down there

00:28:50right at the border.

00:28:51Yeah.

00:28:52There's like a, Tijuana's got like a waste treatment plant

00:28:54that apparently is not very modern.

00:28:56Yeah, so it's sending stuff north.

00:28:57Yeah, it's going north, yeah.

00:28:58Yuck.

00:28:59Yeah.

00:29:00So.

00:29:00I believe it.

00:29:01Back to Mars for seven months.

00:29:03Yeah, you'd be surprised to hear me say

00:29:05Detroit, Michigan, gray water.

00:29:07You know, it does.

00:29:07Hey, Detroit is a fun town.

00:29:09It's an amazing town.

00:29:10I lived downtown.

00:29:11Yeah.

00:29:12It was great.

00:29:13Yeah, I lived in downtown for about a year.

00:29:14Oh, nice.

00:29:14Yeah, back in the 90s.

00:29:15I'm a little older.

00:29:16Okay.

00:29:17But yeah, it was, it was interesting.

00:29:18Yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was.

00:29:19Different vibe.

00:29:19You know what though?

00:29:21It was, it was cool.

00:29:22It was, I don't know.

00:29:24It was, it gets a bad rap.

00:29:26That's all I can say about Detroit.

00:29:27It does, it really does.

00:29:28It's kind of a, it's kind of an interesting town.

00:29:30I'm very happy I live in LA, but.

00:29:32It's a fun, funky place.

00:29:33Yeah, yeah.

00:29:34I do miss LA too.

00:29:35So, if you loved it so much.

00:29:38Why don't you marry it?

00:29:39No, why did, why, why, why did you end up,

00:29:42why did you end up in, in San Diego?

00:29:44Is there, was it a better opportunity to go?

00:29:47Well, I was, so at Ford, we had a lot of issues

00:29:50getting like re-org'd and moved around.

00:29:53So, I started the application process at Mercedes-Benz.

00:29:56It's a company that I've always loved.

00:29:57And I remember seeing the Vision 111 concept come out

00:30:00and I was like, that's sick.

00:30:01And I want to be part of whatever team worked on that.

00:30:04And it just kind of worked out that I got laid off

00:30:06at the same time that I was in the middle

00:30:08of my application process.

00:30:10So, it just, it worked out really well.

00:30:12You got a leg up on everybody.

00:30:13Yeah.

00:30:14Yeah.

00:30:15Right.

00:30:16Because they all would have been going for that.

00:30:17When you moved over to Mercedes-Benz

00:30:19Research and Development North America, MBRDNA.

00:30:22Wow.

00:30:23Mr. Aggregate.

00:30:24What, did you, did you give any kind of cool onboarding?

00:30:27Did you get, have you been to Germany yet?

00:30:28Did you get, do you?

00:30:29No.

00:30:30You got to go to Sindelfingen.

00:30:31No, I really want to go to Germany.

00:30:32They give you the history.

00:30:33Well, you got to go to the museum.

00:30:35I think that would, that would, yeah.

00:30:36I've had a layover in Frankfurt once.

00:30:38Okay.

00:30:39That's about it.

00:30:40But yeah, I really do want to go.

00:30:41Wow, that's a terrible airport.

00:30:43Yeah, that's like the third worst airport in Europe.

00:30:46Yeah.

00:30:46I keep pushing them.

00:30:47Cause I've, almost everybody in my studio is German

00:30:50or has been to Germany.

00:30:51So I'm kind of the only one.

00:30:53So I'm like the obvious choice

00:30:54if you're going to send anybody.

00:30:55And they, we occasionally do like exchange programs

00:30:58where someone comes here for three months,

00:30:59someone goes there for three months.

00:31:01I think that's kind of on hold this year,

00:31:02but hopefully next year.

00:31:04It'll go back in.

00:31:05Cause companies love to move people around.

00:31:07And I will say, just if everyone listening,

00:31:09the Mercedes Museum in Stuttgart is not only

00:31:12the best car museum in the world, bar none,

00:31:15but it's a great museum because what's cool about it

00:31:17is it's kind of designed like the Guggenheim

00:31:19where you start at the top and you wend your way down

00:31:22and you start, you know, we walk out

00:31:24and there's a plaque from Kaiser Wilhelm

00:31:27that says like, yeah, the car's okay,

00:31:29but give him my horse or whatever the actual court is.

00:31:31Like, I believe in the horse.

00:31:32And then you start with like 1885,

00:31:35Carl Benz invents the motorcycle and the car, by the way,

00:31:38and puts a, powers a boat with a,

00:31:40with his one cylinder engine.

00:31:42And then, you know, and, but they,

00:31:44they put the like events of the years that are happening

00:31:47on the walls.

00:31:49So they have the cars in the middle,

00:31:50you look at the wall.

00:31:51It's such a weird time in the forties,

00:31:51they don't really put that.

00:31:52No, they do.

00:31:53No, no, to their credit, to their, I will say to,

00:31:55to Mercedes credit, they do not shy away

00:31:57from Nazis and the Holocaust and all the atrocities.

00:32:00They really don't.

00:32:01And, and there was a time they, not only they,

00:32:04but like, you know, they did.

00:32:05And like, you go to the Porsche Museum

00:32:07and it's literally like 1938, he's doing this.

00:32:09And then like, he's 1946, he's suddenly like,

00:32:14I think they've addressed it since, but yeah,

00:32:16Mercedes does not shy away from that.

00:32:18It is a cool museum.

00:32:19My dad took a European delivery of two vehicles there,

00:32:23but I was, I went with him for the, for his E450 wagon.

00:32:28Nice.

00:32:29Which is hilarious.

00:32:30You should go, is my point.

00:32:30Yeah, it's great.

00:32:31You'll love it.

00:32:32You'll love it.

00:32:33We'll figure out a way to get you there.

00:32:34Let's go back to some of these questions on,

00:32:37on your day to day.

00:32:39What, can you tell us what we, what's in store?

00:32:44Mercedes-Benz is one of the largest car companies

00:32:46in the world.

00:32:47They lead on a lot of things.

00:32:49So they're going to do something,

00:32:51you're probably working on it.

00:32:52Maybe you can't tell us, like what's going to go away

00:32:54or what's coming that you can even hint at?

00:32:56Like, for instance, I'll give you, for instance,

00:32:57everybody talks about key fobs, keys going away, gone.

00:33:02It's all going to be a mobile phone.

00:33:05That's actually kind of old hat now,

00:33:07like accessing your car.

00:33:09Is there a step beyond that we should, is it wearables?

00:33:12Do you think we're all going to be,

00:33:14one of these little things you clip to your shirts

00:33:16and there's a little camera that you talk to.

00:33:18Is that going to get us into the car

00:33:19or have it in an engagement or the smart glasses?

00:33:21Biometric.

00:33:24Look at her, she's got some.

00:33:25I declined to answer.

00:33:26Wow.

00:33:28Sorry.

00:33:29Okay.

00:33:31But just know that everyone's working on everything

00:33:33all the time.

00:33:34So all of that stuff,

00:33:35there's got to be somebody working on that somewhere.

00:33:37What I want you to figure out is,

00:33:38if your phone is your key,

00:33:40figure out a way to say, for five minutes,

00:33:42the car can go through a car wash

00:33:44without my phone in the car.

00:33:45That's the number one issue that like Tesla and Rivian.

00:33:48When you hand a car off to a valet.

00:33:51So like, for instance, like with Rivian,

00:33:55they give you this, which is the key and it sucks.

00:34:00It doesn't, now that.

00:34:01Well, doesn't Tesla also have one of those?

00:34:02Yes, but Tesla's works.

00:34:05Rivian, and apparently with the new one, they fixed it.

00:34:07But like, this sucks.

00:34:08The amount of times when it's like,

00:34:10well, the guy that owns a yellow Rivian come out.

00:34:12And like, I just put my phone in the car

00:34:14and like, you know, they go to the car wash with it.

00:34:17Cause this just doesn't work.

00:34:18And there's no car wash or valet mode or anything.

00:34:20There isn't a car wash mode, but you got to have a key.

00:34:23And when, yeah.

00:34:24So I'm just saying like, if your phone is your key,

00:34:28you got to figure out a way to like,

00:34:30it can go through the car wash or valet park or something

00:34:33where like, I don't know how it's going to work,

00:34:35but there's got to be some way.

00:34:36I like this, yeah.

00:34:38Give me suggestions and ideas.

00:34:39My dad does this all the time.

00:34:40He'll call me and be like,

00:34:41you guys should make screens that do.

00:34:42I'm like, okay, dad, gotcha.

00:34:44All right, all right.

00:34:45Well, let's keep going on that.

00:34:46Is there anything, since you can't discuss

00:34:48what is going to happen,

00:34:49is there anything you really say that's like,

00:34:50just totally like, that's like,

00:34:52that's an evolutionary dead end.

00:34:54Is there like, and the example I'll give is.

00:34:58That's a good one.

00:35:00We've been hearing about VR, AR in consumer devices,

00:35:06consumer electronics for like, a super long time.

00:35:08And I still, Apple Vision Pro

00:35:10was like, the biggest thing to hit, right?

00:35:12And now it's like, nobody's talking about it.

00:35:14And all the-

00:35:15Or Google Glass for a second.

00:35:16Yeah, I don't think, I still don't think any of those,

00:35:19these wearable, the big chunky headsets

00:35:22are just possible for mass adoption.

00:35:25They're, A, they're too expensive.

00:35:27B, they require you to be connected

00:35:29to something-

00:35:30Plus you look like a dork.

00:35:31You look like a dork.

00:35:32You look like a huge dork.

00:35:34So for me, I'm like, I don't know,

00:35:36not totally, you guys gotta keep working on it.

00:35:38Is there anything you can think of

00:35:40that you're just like, yeah.

00:35:41Well those, so those big like, VR, AR glasses,

00:35:45those are pass-throughs.

00:35:46So they're recording a video for you

00:35:48and then projecting like, information on top of that video

00:35:50and then showing it to your eyes, right?

00:35:52But it's still, if those things die,

00:35:53it's a, you're in a black hole.

00:35:55Right.

00:35:55But there are the, like you were speaking of,

00:35:57those polarized lenses that just kind of have

00:35:59an AR system in the lens,

00:36:02but you can still see the rest of your world.

00:36:04So if that turns off, they're just sunglasses.

00:36:07I mean, I think that's more possible

00:36:09than the Vision Pro kind of system.

00:36:12But even still, I don't think we're gonna be doing that

00:36:15while we're driving.

00:36:17But you guys, I mean, you know,

00:36:18the augmented reality is sort of the same thing.

00:36:21Yeah.

00:36:22You're able to like, project,

00:36:24maybe not on the windshield, but you know, things.

00:36:25Like how crazy does augmented reality get?

00:36:29Does it, will you always be able to like,

00:36:32are you always seeing through the glass

00:36:34or do you ever like, you know what?

00:36:35We can put a better image on the glass

00:36:37or, you know what I'm saying?

00:36:39Oh, you mean the windshield?

00:36:40Yeah.

00:36:41Oh, okay.

00:36:42I think that's all of that's possible.

00:36:44I mean, it's all, it's always possible

00:36:46to actually have some kind of driving system

00:36:48while you can see through the glass

00:36:50or if you wanna just hang out in the car

00:36:52and completely immerse yourself.

00:36:54But I think that would still need

00:36:55either a pass-through system like the Vision Pro

00:36:57or something that's completely blacking out your lenses.

00:37:00Unless you're talking about something like a heads-up display

00:37:02that's already in cars right now

00:37:03where you have this little projection down here

00:37:05and it's giving you a turn left, turn right,

00:37:07that kind of information.

00:37:08I just, it's just like, you know, I've like, I know,

00:37:13you know, they have, what do they call it?

00:37:15You know, like Land Rover has it

00:37:17where if you're off-roading and you're up like this,

00:37:19there's a front camera that on the screen

00:37:21can show you what you're looking at type thing.

00:37:23But like, how crazy does it get, you know?

00:37:25Because I've seen like, you know,

00:37:28you know, at a car show or whatever,

00:37:30like, you know, look at this.

00:37:31And it's like, you know, you're driving around London

00:37:34and it's like, that's, it calls out Big Ben.

00:37:36Or if you touch the air, like my neighborhood report,

00:37:40Big Ben, London Eye, you know, Buckingham Palace, whatever.

00:37:43Yeah, I think it can get really crazy

00:37:45and really immersive like that.

00:37:46But it's not just like, hey, here's a pair of glasses,

00:37:49get in the car.

00:37:49It really has to be built in the system of the vehicle.

00:37:52Because if you're doing something like,

00:37:53touch here and I'll give you information,

00:37:55well, now we're doing hand tracking.

00:37:57Right.

00:37:57And maybe we're doing eye tracking.

00:37:59Right.

00:37:59And we also know exactly where you are

00:38:00if I'm going to give you points of interest like Big Ben.

00:38:03You know, it really becomes a whole vehicle

00:38:06kind of infrastructure.

00:38:07And the other issue is, and you have glasses,

00:38:08but you're young, but as you have glasses, you get old.

00:38:10Like, man, your vision just sucks.

00:38:12Like, it's, you know, so like,

00:38:13last thing you want to do is anything interfering

00:38:15with the glasses.

00:38:16Yeah.

00:38:17Right.

00:38:18And there, it's not a consumer product,

00:38:20but the Magic Leap also has like,

00:38:22you can buy extra lenses.

00:38:24What's the Magic Leap?

00:38:25Magic Leap is another AR glasses.

00:38:27So if you, I don't know,

00:38:28were you guys familiar with the Vision 111 product

00:38:30that Mercedes did?

00:38:31Oh, yeah, sure.

00:38:32So they did an AR experience with the Magic Leap glasses.

00:38:35Oh, oh, it was with the glasses.

00:38:36And so you can actually sit in,

00:38:38not in the car, but in the buck,

00:38:40and they would show you this experience

00:38:41where you're going through the journey.

00:38:42Yes, okay, I remember that.

00:38:43I didn't know it was Magic Leap,

00:38:44but yeah, I remember that, yeah.

00:38:45Yeah, so the Magic Leap,

00:38:46you can purchase an extra set of like,

00:38:49these lenses, these prescription lenses,

00:38:51and you'll put them,

00:38:52I think they only go up to three and negative three,

00:38:54but you could like, clip those in.

00:38:55Oh, okay.

00:38:56But yes, it is very difficult,

00:38:57and you definitely have to wear it.

00:38:57Like, I've tried the Vision Pros on,

00:38:59and I'm wearing contacts.

00:39:00I, even that big clunky thing,

00:39:02I can't do it with my glasses.

00:39:03Right, yeah, and like, for me,

00:39:05I have something, I have an eye gag reflex,

00:39:07so like, I can't put contacts in.

00:39:09Oh, I have friends like that.

00:39:11I had an ophthalmologist sit there,

00:39:12and was like, really trying to like,

00:39:14he's like, I just can't do it.

00:39:15Yeah.

00:39:17Yeah, there's a joke in there.

00:39:18But, but yeah, so I just wear glasses,

00:39:21and I'm fine with it.

00:39:22Although, as I get older,

00:39:23like, my vision's just falling apart.

00:39:25It's horrible.

00:39:26So.

00:39:27This, I know I'm not,

00:39:28I know the answer I'm gonna get here.

00:39:30We're talking a lot about vision, and screens,

00:39:33and then a little bit about touch stuff,

00:39:35and hand gestures,

00:39:36which is all still kind of camera or vision based.

00:39:39Mercedes was one of the first to pilot,

00:39:42what was that, aromatherapy?

00:39:44Oh, yeah, they have scents.

00:39:47In the glove box, yeah.

00:39:48How about that?

00:39:49Are we gonna get smell-o-vision in the car, too?

00:39:51In addition to like, you know,

00:39:54whatever else you're working on,

00:39:55or is there anything?

00:39:56Vision, screens, has been such the focal point,

00:39:59but,

00:40:01there's cars that have interiors,

00:40:03there's things to touch,

00:40:04there's some sound stuff you can do.

00:40:06Or the seats do a lot, you know.

00:40:08Yeah, yeah, exactly, you have the massage function.

00:40:10So, in the experience team,

00:40:12we're always aiming for a full immersive experience,

00:40:15especially the higher the trim, the vehicle,

00:40:17the more that we get to do.

00:40:18If you're asking me if I've done any fragrance creation,

00:40:22I haven't.

00:40:24I'm sure that's probably the production team

00:40:26who would take care of that,

00:40:27but I haven't even worked on a system like that yet,

00:40:29but I have tried it.

00:40:30I like the scent.

00:40:31I know some people don't like it.

00:40:32I'm just wondering, is there a future

00:40:33where you program, or as the?

00:40:36You know those movies, like 4DX?

00:40:38Have you seen a 4DX movie?

00:40:39Oh, yeah, where they're like spraying water at you?

00:40:42So, I just saw the Furiosa,

00:40:46and there's a scene where she's waking him up

00:40:48by pouring a drop of water on his head,

00:40:50and literally something is spinning on your head.

00:40:53And, yeah.

00:40:54In the theater?

00:40:55Yeah.

00:40:56Did you go to the screening?

00:40:57No, and they have smoke machines going off,

00:41:00and it's just crazy.

00:41:02Mercedes was also the first to do the cup of coffee icon

00:41:05after a long drive.

00:41:06I always wonder why they didn't pair the two together.

00:41:09Cup of coffee.

00:41:09Oh, the smell of coffee?

00:41:10Oh, that's brilliant.

00:41:12Actually, you know what?

00:41:12You might have just been a billion dollar idea,

00:41:14because supposedly, for waking you up,

00:41:17smelling coffee is as effective as drinking it.

00:41:20Yeah.

00:41:21For like.

00:41:21Oh, I don't buy it.

00:41:22No.

00:41:23No way.

00:41:24It's like a psychosomatic thing,

00:41:25like when you smell coffee,

00:41:26your body's like, that's caffeine?

00:41:28Oh, interesting.

00:41:28Yeah, okay.

00:41:29So, if that happens, I would like a 1% of a cup of coffee.

00:41:32No, I'll write you in the trademark.

00:41:36Speaking of, so we did talk to your big, big boss

00:41:41at Mercedes-Benz, AG, Magnus Asperg at CES about AI

00:41:47and how it was, I should look that up,

00:41:51which episode it was.

00:41:51It was only like 10 episodes ago.

00:41:53It was a CES episode.

00:41:54And he said that the funny, the key learning

00:41:58was that a lot of the customers just were kind of lonely

00:42:01and just like to talk.

00:42:03Someone to talk to.

00:42:04Someone to talk to, to the AI.

00:42:05Have you, as part of what you do,

00:42:07have you done a lot of any AI,

00:42:09like designing?

00:42:11Yeah, I don't think there's any studio

00:42:12that's shying away from AI right now.

00:42:15So, really thinking about how we can bring AI

00:42:17to the customers in a way that they actually wanna use it.

00:42:21You know, they actually wanna ask it questions

00:42:23because it's not,

00:42:24the systems aren't the most reliable right now.

00:42:26They don't always give you the most truthful answers.

00:42:28Yes.

00:42:29But at least doing it in a way where it feels less robotic,

00:42:32that's always something that we're thinking about.

00:42:34How do we make it more intuitive?

00:42:36At the time, Mercedes-Benz had been testing

00:42:38with Chats GPT, but then, I think during our podcast,

00:42:43he's like, yep, we're moving away.

00:42:45We're using somebody else, but he didn't,

00:42:47I think he disclosed who.

00:42:48Yeah, or if Mercedes was developing it or something.

00:42:50I'm not gonna ask you who it is,

00:42:51because you can't tell.

00:42:53I'll just assume you can't tell me.

00:42:54Are you, how about in your day-to-day,

00:42:59how do you use AI?

00:43:02Do you use AI?

00:43:03I notice a lot of, like here, for example,

00:43:05I write a desk.

00:43:06Johnny gets to drive cars.

00:43:08I drive a lot of really terrible PowerPoint presentations,

00:43:10and I've noticed that a lot of folks

00:43:13within the company who used to send terrible emails,

00:43:17their emails have gotten a lot better,

00:43:19because they're using Grammarly or somebody else

00:43:22to just generate it.

00:43:23Is there any time-saving AI?

00:43:25I mean, and our photographers use Firefly and Photoshop.

00:43:30Is there any cool, hot new thing

00:43:31that designers are all using?

00:43:33We're all trying to test different AI softwares

00:43:35all the time, especially for image creation.

00:43:38The only problem that we have mainly,

00:43:39well, we have a few problems,

00:43:40but one of our biggest problem is security,

00:43:43because we don't want to put in

00:43:44any of our proprietary information

00:43:45that's not public into some cloud-based software.

00:43:49So that's issue number one,

00:43:50but issue number two is that the images

00:43:52that they generate are kind of a lot of times crap.

00:43:55We can't use them, especially, I know,

00:43:57our exterior designers have tried to use AI

00:43:59to help them jog their creativity,

00:44:01but they're not really getting anything useful.

00:44:04But at least there's an infinite amount

00:44:07of carved sketches and images for it to learn from.

00:44:10There isn't that much experience design

00:44:13that AI has learned from.

00:44:14So even when I try to find new systems

00:44:17or new ideas and ways of thinking,

00:44:19I don't really get anything that makes any sense.

00:44:22Yeah, I was just telling that BMW

00:44:24has a design studio in Santa Monica,

00:44:26and they gave us a presentation on how they're using AI.

00:44:29And it was kind of like, yeah,

00:44:30we make a lot of mood boards really well with AI.

00:44:32Yeah, yeah.

00:44:33Look at this weird thing the computer spat out.

00:44:35We could maybe put that on a headliner.

00:44:38It didn't seem like they're like, design a car.

00:44:41Still have designers for that.

00:44:42Mood boards, storyboards, ambient kind of graphical images.

00:44:46That's what it was.

00:44:47It was like, yeah.

00:44:48Build a presentation for me.

00:44:49Yeah.

00:44:50Is there anything, any AI tool or software

00:44:54or something that you use personally that you recommend?

00:44:57Like, are you like Midjourney or Sora or any of those?

00:45:00Oh, that's, I feel like I'm such an old, old person

00:45:04when it comes to this kind of stuff.

00:45:05I don't touch it too much.

00:45:07I've used ChatGPT a little bit.

00:45:11I actually, and I don't think I should have done this.

00:45:12I put, I went to the doctor and I got my blood work results

00:45:15and then I put it into ChatGPT

00:45:17and I was like, what's wrong with me?

00:45:18Oh God, don't do that.

00:45:19Don't do that.

00:45:20Yeah, I was totally, people were like, maybe don't, yeah.

00:45:22Yeah, if you're on WebMD for five minutes,

00:45:24you have every disease.

00:45:25No, yeah.

00:45:26Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:26It turns out my doctor was like,

00:45:28you're just vitamin D deficient.

00:45:30You don't have like lupus or whatever.

00:45:32You should go to the beach.

00:45:33Yeah.

00:45:34Get eaten by a shark.

00:45:35Yeah.

00:45:37So are you primarily inside the car UX

00:45:42or does this include,

00:45:43I'm just trying to think of all the funky stuff

00:45:45that's coming on the outside, right?

00:45:46It's like BMW did that.

00:45:52The skin of the car can change colors, like programmable.

00:45:55And then all of the companies now

00:45:57are doing this light projection.

00:45:59Oh, yeah, wildness.

00:46:00Wild, like big arrows to tell the pedestrians

00:46:03which way you're going.

00:46:04Is that, are you more exterior or interior?

00:46:08We're all over.

00:46:09So we're doing both.

00:46:10But I think mainly most people just in general

00:46:13are doing more interior

00:46:15just because that exterior stuff is,

00:46:16it's great to design and concept,

00:46:20but it never goes into development.

00:46:22So that's, so that most of our money is in interior.

00:46:25Right.

00:46:26How about app stuff?

00:46:27Phone, apps, like that?

00:46:29Not too much, no, no.

00:46:32Okay.

00:46:33Where do you get your,

00:46:35you're an industrial designer

00:46:36and then you went to Art Center for Transportation,

00:46:39but when you look for inspiration,

00:46:43what are you reading?

00:46:44Or what are you looking at or watching?

00:46:45Is it car design news?

00:46:47I assume it's on the rack somewhere in the office,

00:46:50but is it like architectural digest or?

00:46:52Oh, it's everything.

00:46:55It's design news, it's non-design news.

00:46:58Because we are a luxury automaker,

00:47:01we're always looking at things like high fashion,

00:47:03things that are opulent, highfalutin, that kind of thing.

00:47:06Do you have a background in that or this is,

00:47:08okay, so it's new to you?

00:47:09No, this is very new to me.

00:47:11Yeah, I've always had an interest in it,

00:47:13but no formal training or anything.

00:47:16What about on the tech side?

00:47:17Oh, definitely.

00:47:18Especially because we're in UX

00:47:19and we're always looking at what's the new technology.

00:47:22I mean, we go to CES every year

00:47:24and we try to go to all these conferences.

00:47:25I just went to COGX in LA, the AI convention,

00:47:29which comes from, I think, Europe.

00:47:32This is the first year that they did it in Los Angeles.

00:47:35So I got to go there and hear people talk about

00:47:37the future of AI and art and what that means

00:47:39and emergent narratives,

00:47:40which is things like being able to sit in a movie theater

00:47:43and actually have the narrative of the movie

00:47:45react to your body and what it is

00:47:47that you're looking for from this movie.

00:47:49Yeah, wild stuff.

00:47:52Would you choose your own adventure movie?

00:47:54Kind of, but you're not physically doing anything

00:47:57and it could react to just you

00:47:58if you're the only person watching it

00:47:59or if you're in a group.

00:48:00Now it's kind of a group think experience.

00:48:03And I think it comes originally from game design.

00:48:07It's a thing out of game design.

00:48:08Are you a gamer?

00:48:09I am not a gamer.

00:48:10I play Solitaire on my phone.

00:48:14That's my game.

00:48:14Old soul, I think they call that, yeah.

00:48:19I'll be a gentleman and ask your age,

00:48:21but I can extrapolate that.

00:48:22We are about 20 years older than she is.

00:48:24So I feel like everybody though who's coming up

00:48:27in the tech space, the automotive design space,

00:48:31the gaming component is so big.

00:48:34It's like, because this stuff, it's really important to me.

00:48:36Twitch, never logged on, never watched anything.

00:48:38Everybody's doing this.

00:48:39I'm just like, people like to watch other people play.

00:48:41My kid watches Minecraft, people playing Minecraft,

00:48:44and I'm like, what?

00:48:45Like, you're wasting your life.

00:48:47I'm so mad, but I'm just old.

00:48:49How do you, I mean, but those kids, he's seven.

00:48:55So he's 10, 15 years out, 15 to 20 years out

00:49:00from being in potentially one of the experiences

00:49:03you're designing.

00:49:05How do you design for that?

00:49:07How do you design for a future

00:49:10if you don't partake in a lot of these things, right?

00:49:14It's like, I try to tell our staff,

00:49:17guys, it's video.

00:49:19There's a whole generation that grew up watching,

00:49:21thankfully we have a YouTube channel.

00:49:23That's where this is on right now,

00:49:24but we haven't been seriously programming it

00:49:26for a long time.

00:49:28And there's kids who don't know Motor Trend,

00:49:30had a magazine, or they might know us from Instagram.

00:49:32They're not gonna read anything.

00:49:33They're not gonna watch, yeah.

00:49:34So how do you, does that keep you up at night?

00:49:37How do I reach this potential audience?

00:49:41Or are you actively studying where they're at

00:49:44or where they will be?

00:49:46Well, so I'm 29, I'll tell you that.

00:49:48Okay, yeah, 20 years, you nailed it.

00:49:50I don't play video games,

00:49:53but we have a good demographic in our studio

00:49:56who comes from gaming or has gamed very hard

00:49:59their whole life, so they teach me.

00:50:02And actually, I spent a lot of time looking

00:50:04through game design websites and really looking

00:50:08at the way that they've designed their layouts

00:50:10to help influence the designs that I've been creating.

00:50:14However, at Mercedes-Benz, we're not really designing

00:50:16for that 20-year-old, 17-year-old.

00:50:19We're mainly designing for an older demographic

00:50:21who can afford the car.

00:50:23They've probably lived a longer life

00:50:24and maybe they're not that interested in gaming.

00:50:27Yeah, and people age out of gaming.

00:50:28Yeah.

00:50:30So let me ask you this then.

00:50:31So what do, let's say old dudes like us or gals,

00:50:36what do we get wrong about the future of the car?

00:50:39Like if you hear people say like this,

00:50:42what are we missing?

00:50:44I think my main issue with people who have been

00:50:48in the industry longer than me is just saying no

00:50:51to a lot of new things.

00:50:53Can you give us an example of a no that stuck with you?

00:50:56I mean, this is the Inevitable podcast

00:50:58and you know how many people hate EVs

00:51:01and they just don't want anything to do

00:51:02with electrification.

00:51:03I mean, that's just such an old school mindset.

00:51:07I think it's unnecessary.

00:51:09I think people think that we're coming in

00:51:11with this new technology to take away the things

00:51:13that they love about cars and we're not going to do that.

00:51:17No one is coming in and taking your old.

00:51:18Yeah, like Carl Benz was an anti-horse.

00:51:20Yeah, you can have your horse,

00:51:22but also have a faster way to get to work.

00:51:25Like that's great.

00:51:26Right, yeah.

00:51:27This from someone who drives a 1989 MR2, right?

00:51:30Okay, but I also drive a 2023 C300.

00:51:33Okay, all right.

00:51:34No, yeah, no, that's a great point.

00:51:36And I've been thinking, I think about this a lot,

00:51:38the anti-EV thing.

00:51:40And it's also from a lot of people

00:51:42who just would never buy a new car anyway.

00:51:46Right.

00:51:46You know what I'm saying?

00:51:47They don't buy new cars.

00:51:48I feel attacked.

00:51:49I like you.

00:51:50No, not you.

00:51:51Yeah, yeah, yeah, you should buy a new car though.

00:51:53Support your industry.

00:51:54But yeah, they're not going to buy a new car anyways,

00:51:58but they're so passionate about what I'm buying.

00:52:00Like why do they care what I'm buying?

00:52:01Yeah, like the gatekeepers of car culture.

00:52:04I don't understand it.

00:52:06I think that that is a generational thing too.

00:52:09I think that there's going to be a lot of kids

00:52:10that like grew up with Teslas or whatever.

00:52:12And like the idea of like,

00:52:13wait, why would you go to a gas station

00:52:15when you could just drive it home?

00:52:17So yeah, I think I refer to it as the moving goalposts

00:52:23of the electrification of the automobile.

00:52:25Because if you go back 20 years,

00:52:27like it was like hybrids are the devil.

00:52:28Now today is like, oh, the new Bugatti is a hybrid?

00:52:31Rad.

00:52:32Yeah.

00:52:33So it's just, it all moves and changes.

00:52:34Yeah, yeah, and there's a lot of systems

00:52:36that I feel like when they first came out,

00:52:38I was not interested in,

00:52:39because it's hard to learn how to use a new thing.

00:52:41And it makes you feel like, okay,

00:52:43and I'm aging and the world is moving past me

00:52:46and I'm not going to be able to keep up.

00:52:48But that's not the case.

00:52:49A lot of these systems that are coming out now

00:52:51are pretty intuitive.

00:52:52You take five minutes, you can figure it out.

00:52:54You might love it.

00:52:56Yeah, look, I remember people,

00:52:57I remember when the, I was one of them

00:52:58when the iPhone came out, oh, I hate that thing.

00:53:01Now you can't even, how do you live without it?

00:53:04Yeah, I have a love hate relationship with Siri.

00:53:06I deactivate her all the time.

00:53:09Let's talk about China.

00:53:14How, where are they on your radar?

00:53:17Are you studying?

00:53:18Because they're doing some crazy stuff

00:53:20with EVs, software-friendly vehicles.

00:53:23The user experience from inside the cabin.

00:53:25The NIO.

00:53:26It's very different, yeah.

00:53:27NIO has this KnowMe digital assistant,

00:53:30it's a little cute thing,

00:53:31and it swivels around and it talks to you.

00:53:33And then I just saw from the Beijing show,

00:53:35there's this, I don't know if it's a Xiaomi,

00:53:37which is a mobile phone manufacturer,

00:53:39I don't know if it's that actual company,

00:53:40but there's one that has the big screen,

00:53:44the multi-information display,

00:53:45but with accessories so you can snap things on

00:53:49for gaming or make a karaoke little bar,

00:53:52put some lights on and make a production studio.

00:53:55Are you guys watching?

00:53:59What's your take?

00:54:00Yeah, watching and actively working in it, actually.

00:54:03So MBRDNA, we operate sometimes kind of like an agency

00:54:06to the larger Mercedes-Benz.

00:54:08So we might get a project from a different branch

00:54:11and we do have a team out in China.

00:54:13So we'll be asked to design experiences for them

00:54:16and it's a lot of fun to study that market

00:54:19because it feels to us outlandish

00:54:23because we are so used to a more minimal approach,

00:54:25but it's very fun, it's very playful,

00:54:27it's gamified, it's kitschy,

00:54:30it's a nice escape from the minimal,

00:54:35this button takes you to your media player,

00:54:36your media player glows blue, it's a lot of fun.

00:54:39That's an interesting take that you think Mercedes,

00:54:42at least that portion of the in-car user experience

00:54:45is minimal because, and this is a fairly broad stereotype

00:54:50of the Chinese luxury consumer,

00:54:52it's like they want ostentatious,

00:54:54they want, that's why the badge,

00:54:56that's why BMW has this giant double kidney grill snout

00:55:00and then all the Mercedes-Benz badges

00:55:02now like glow on their cars

00:55:04and the inside you got like the orange stitching

00:55:07and the Burmester, they want this flashy,

00:55:10ostentatious experience,

00:55:15outward signal that I'm wealthy, I own a Mercedes-Benz.

00:55:19So you don't, I would think it's more of that

00:55:22versus the minimalism that you're speaking of

00:55:26for that market.

00:55:28Minimalism, I'm speaking of the kind of design

00:55:31that we expect in the West.

00:55:33But you're not tailoring, I mean, I don't think Mercedes,

00:55:37I haven't driven a Chinese Mercedes-Benz,

00:55:39you're not tailoring the experience to be that different.

00:55:42If I have a E-Class in China and an E-Class in the Benz,

00:55:45it's gonna be, let's say.

00:55:47Well, so on the project that I've worked on,

00:55:49it was actually for smart.

00:55:50Okay.

00:55:51Which that is a completely different experience,

00:55:52but that was for the Chinese market.

00:55:54So that's where we got to be a lot more playful.

00:55:56Okay, okay, I see.

00:55:57Yeah, I should have clarified.

00:55:58But I mean, I've just heard anecdotally

00:56:01that the Chinese consumer,

00:56:03they want more whiz-bang in the interior

00:56:06and they're more open to it,

00:56:07whereas you hear a lot of Westerners

00:56:12just complain about screen overload, screens,

00:56:15whereas, and I've never been, well, I've been once,

00:56:19but looking at cars in the Chinese market,

00:56:21like, they want faster processors

00:56:24and more stuff happening and all this.

00:56:26And so, and maybe it's just like,

00:56:31they just think of cars differently.

00:56:33So I don't know, your take.

00:56:35Yeah, I think that's been my understanding as well,

00:56:38is that they're open to more technology,

00:56:41they're open to more whimsy.

00:56:43They want something that really shows off

00:56:45the capability of their vehicle screen

00:56:47or their vehicle in general.

00:56:49So they want all of that.

00:56:50All right.

00:56:51Interesting.

00:56:53I asked this of, well, I'll just ask the question

00:56:57then tell you the response later.

00:56:59Do brands matter when you talk about China?

00:57:02Do you think the Mercedes-Benz star

00:57:06and the luxury technology experience

00:57:10you're striving to deliver,

00:57:13does it matter to the end user

00:57:16that it comes from Mercedes-Benz?

00:57:18You know, I'm not too familiar

00:57:21with their expectation of different brands,

00:57:25but I would think so.

00:57:26Yeah, I did a presentation to my team

00:57:29about hip hop and Mercedes

00:57:32and the way that different cultures here in the U.S.

00:57:34experience the Mercedes-Benz, especially the black culture.

00:57:37But I've learned that there's also a connection

00:57:39to the Asian kind of gangster culture

00:57:42and the way that they love, especially an S-Class,

00:57:45because it symbolizes power

00:57:47and it symbolizes stealth and luxury.

00:57:50I mean, a white S-Class in Japan is a yakuza.

00:57:53Stay away from those.

00:57:53That's dangerous.

00:57:55What, could you talk about the black experience

00:57:58of Mercedes as a brand?

00:58:00I'm curious.

00:58:00Yeah, I mean, it's got such a huge

00:58:03cultural significance in hip hop.

00:58:05You see that the SL featured a lot

00:58:08in old school hip hop videos.

00:58:10And it's really just a symbol of wealth.

00:58:12If you're someone who comes from

00:58:14maybe an impoverished community,

00:58:16the way that you know that you've made it

00:58:18is when you have a Benz.

00:58:20But it's something about a Benz specifically.

00:58:21It's not a Ferrari.

00:58:23It's not a Bugatti.

00:58:24It's not a BMW.

00:58:25It's a Benz.

00:58:25And I think it's because of that connection

00:58:28to things like crime and being able to get away

00:58:32from a crime scene in an SL.

00:58:34This is what I've read.

00:58:35I'm not making these assumptions.

00:58:37Being able to get away with a certain car

00:58:39that maybe if you're not too familiar

00:58:42or you're looking quickly,

00:58:44you don't entirely know which car that was

00:58:46that just committed that act.

00:58:48Oh, there's a little bit of stealth.

00:58:49Yeah, especially in the S-Class.

00:58:53So yeah.

00:58:56Were you at all involved with the thing

00:58:58that we talked about in Vegas, the Will.I.Am?

00:59:01No, but I thought that was sick.

00:59:04You thought it was sick.

00:59:05I drove it, yeah.

00:59:05The music you're talking about, right?

00:59:06Yeah, I drove it, yeah.

00:59:08But what'd you think of it?

00:59:09I thought it was really cool.

00:59:10I think it's a great way to really engage

00:59:12all of your senses in the driving experience

00:59:14because part of the reason I love driving my MR2

00:59:19is because I can feel everything.

00:59:20I can feel, I can hear, I can smell every part of my drive.

00:59:25There's not much separating you from anything.

00:59:27Exactly.

00:59:28So as we move into these cars

00:59:31where they're kind of taking control of everything,

00:59:33you don't have to do too much,

00:59:35it's a nice way to really re-engage you

00:59:36back with the driving experience.

00:59:38Yeah, and if you missed that episode,

00:59:40it's this thing where there's a,

00:59:44I don't know what it's called,

00:59:45I don't wanna say baseline,

00:59:46but there's a main part of the song

00:59:48that's kind of like, you're hearing it, you're hearing it,

00:59:50and then as you hit the throttle harder,

00:59:54it either speeds up or it gets louder

00:59:56or more instruments come in.

00:59:57You turn left or right and it adds in instruments

01:00:01and then, or it comes to the chorus or something.

01:00:07You're composing the song with the car.

01:00:08Composing the song.

01:00:10The way you drive changes the song.

01:00:12It was called the MBUX Sound Drive Experience

01:00:16and it was at CES this year, 2024,

01:00:21with Mercedes, AMG, and Will.i.am.

01:00:23What was the car?

01:00:24I think I was just driving an EQE SUV, I wanna say,

01:00:29or it could've just been a GLE SUV, some SUV.

01:00:35But it was, yeah, I just drove around Vegas

01:00:37and it was, I mean, all the, I hated every single song.

01:00:41I'm not a Will.i.am fan, I'm not a fan of his taste.

01:00:44Are you a Will.i.am fan?

01:00:46I was a huge Black Eyed Peas fan when I was a kid.

01:00:48Not me, no.

01:00:49And, no, no, no, no.

01:00:53Swedish death metal.

01:00:54Okay.

01:00:55Or, like, you know.

01:00:56Not that far off.

01:00:57Or like NWA, something, you know, real rap.

01:01:00But, you know, something, it was just like,

01:01:03but it was impressive.

01:01:04Black Eyed Peas representing El Monte, I think.

01:01:07What?

01:01:09Not my thing, anyhow.

01:01:11But I have a lot of friends that we've had on the show

01:01:14that are musicians, and I was like,

01:01:15hey guys, you should call Mercedes, like, you know,

01:01:18like, get your songs, upload it into the car.

01:01:22Yeah, yeah, I think, I thought it was very cool.

01:01:25It's a cool technology.

01:01:25But I haven't gotten to drive it yet,

01:01:27so I haven't heard the songs.

01:01:28Yeah, but it was, again, it was just really cool

01:01:31how it worked, it was a track,

01:01:33and then it would change based on

01:01:35what your feet and your hands are doing.

01:01:37Yeah.

01:01:37All right.

01:01:39I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about,

01:01:42just real briefly, because we're almost at the end here,

01:01:44this Hot Wheels thing.

01:01:46Yeah.

01:01:46Oh yeah, how'd that come about?

01:01:47How did you, so you worked with, again,

01:01:49we mentioned it at the top, our pals,

01:01:52Rutledge, and then you had the guests,

01:01:54Sung, and Joel McHale, and Jay Leno, and folks like that.

01:01:58How was that?

01:01:59How'd you land, how'd you get involved with that?

01:02:01Yeah.

01:02:02And how was Manchester?

01:02:03Okay, this one was crazy.

01:02:06We did a 10-episode show with Hot Wheels,

01:02:09we filmed in Manchester, we had contestants come in

01:02:12and show us which cars that they grew up in,

01:02:15some car that was really important to them growing up,

01:02:17and they would compete against each other

01:02:19to build the ultimate Hot Wheels.

01:02:21So we did that for eight episodes,

01:02:23and then our last two episodes were our finale

01:02:25where we had our three finalists compete to win.

01:02:29It was an incredible experience.

01:02:30Rutledge Wood was our host, the sweetest guy ever.

01:02:34I've never met a nicer person.

01:02:35It's kind of creepy how nice he is.

01:02:36No, it doesn't make sense.

01:02:38Yeah, it's not normal.

01:02:39Sometimes we're gearing up to shoot

01:02:41and he'll be in the corner mopping up the floor.

01:02:44Rut, you host the show.

01:02:46Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, he's like that, yeah.

01:02:47He's a very nice guy, and Hurt Eugene Jr.,

01:02:49who is my other judge, who is also incredible,

01:02:54the epitome of cool, I think.

01:02:55Right, right.

01:02:57But how that came about is a funny story.

01:03:00I should mention that I'm very easily scammable, okay?

01:03:03I will fall for a scam text message.

01:03:05She's here.

01:03:06I literally know you're right.

01:03:07It's so easy to get me.

01:03:10So knowing that about me, I was like,

01:03:12I'm not gonna get got.

01:03:13I got an email from an email I didn't recognize,

01:03:18no signature at the bottom.

01:03:21They were like, hey, we're filming the show with Hot Wheels.

01:03:24You're gonna be in the UK.

01:03:25We would love for you to join us.

01:03:27Nice try.

01:03:28I was like, yeah, okay, sure.

01:03:32I get four of those emails, including an email

01:03:35through my website where I have a contact form.

01:03:37And I was like, oh my god, I'm being harassed.

01:03:39Fine, I'll respond.

01:03:40And then she gave me the whole explanation

01:03:44of what it was and who gave her my contact.

01:03:47And then within four weeks of that phone call,

01:03:49I was on a flight to the UK.

01:03:51And who gave her your contact?

01:03:52So I worked with, are you familiar with the Legend Store,

01:03:55the Hot Wheels Legend Store?

01:03:56Yeah, I've judged it a bunch of times.

01:03:58So I judged it twice with Jay Leno over at his garage.

01:04:03And I met the entire Hot Wheels team.

01:04:05And they're just the sweetest, sweetest people.

01:04:07They are nice, yeah.

01:04:08And the reason I met them is actually

01:04:10I started working with race service

01:04:12while I was still in grad school.

01:04:13Oh, yeah, we know race service.

01:04:16So Rod, if you know Rod from race service,

01:04:20he reached out to me one day on Instagram.

01:04:22I was just a student.

01:04:23I was like doing my sketches

01:04:25and posting my projects on Instagram,

01:04:26not thinking anything of it.

01:04:27He thought that was really cool

01:04:29that I was working on the future.

01:04:31They asked me to come in and just check out the studio.

01:04:33And I was like, sure.

01:04:34I had no idea what they,

01:04:36if they were interested in anything.

01:04:37I think he just wanted to meet and chat to me

01:04:40about what I do and what he does.

01:04:42And at the time, they were filming campaigns

01:04:43for the Aston Martin DBX.

01:04:46And they asked me what I do.

01:04:48I was like, I'm a UX designer.

01:04:49And they were like, do you wanna drive the car around

01:04:52while we take photos?

01:04:53I was like, you don't know me.

01:04:54You just met me.

01:04:55And they were like, are you giving me the keys

01:04:56to an Aston Martin?

01:04:57Sure.

01:04:58So I ended up filming two campaigns for them.

01:05:00Then I came back, did a Hot Wheels campaign.

01:05:02And I think it just kind of snowballed from there.

01:05:04And then I was on national television.

01:05:06And you did that before the Ford,

01:05:09between Ford and-

01:05:10So I did the Hot Wheels campaigns and stuff

01:05:14while I was still,

01:05:16no, most of that stuff I did

01:05:17while I was still living in LA.

01:05:18My first Hot Wheels campaign and Legend Store

01:05:21I did while I was in Detroit.

01:05:22They flew me out.

01:05:23And then the show I did while I was still working at Ford.

01:05:26So I was doing the show during the day in Manchester

01:05:29from like 6 a.m. to 8 p.m.

01:05:31And then in the middle of that,

01:05:33working for the Ford Motor Company.

01:05:35That sounds amazing.

01:05:36Yeah, it was brutal.

01:05:37That sounds amazing.

01:05:38For someone in your 20s to get that experience?

01:05:40No, that's incredible.

01:05:41But I was-

01:05:42Like now it'd be like, oh.

01:05:43Severely sleep-deprived.

01:05:46And then I had to get up there and go, Hot Wheels!

01:05:48Yeah.

01:05:50So that's the last thing I'll say is,

01:05:52this is wild,

01:05:53because you were working with Race Service

01:05:56before they landed the deal with Mercedes-Benz.

01:05:57And now they're all up with Mercedes-Benz.

01:06:00AMG, specifically.

01:06:02Yeah, which is a mild point of contention,

01:06:05because you said-

01:06:06But they've always been pretty tight.

01:06:07Yeah, yeah.

01:06:08And I've always looked at Race Service and AMG

01:06:13as an interesting youth marketing campaign, right?

01:06:15Because that is totally not this clientele

01:06:17you're talking about, the older guy.

01:06:19This is very much an attempt to make,

01:06:22what some would consider kind of a stodgy brand,

01:06:25cool with them young kids.

01:06:28Yeah.

01:06:29Yeah, Mercedes has had a real turning

01:06:32in the past few years.

01:06:33They were, and still are, pretty conservative,

01:06:38older demographic kind of brand,

01:06:39but have gotten cool again.

01:06:42And now this whole Race Service thing is perfect,

01:06:45because Race Service, again, is just so cool.

01:06:47You were at the Race Service thing

01:06:49on top of the Roosevelt?

01:06:49Yes.

01:06:50But I showed up late.

01:06:51Oh, so you couldn't get in?

01:06:52You were stuck there with the fire marshals?

01:06:54Yeah, but then eventually I got in.

01:06:55Yeah, they had so many people

01:06:57that the fire marshals showed up.

01:06:57Oh, yeah, it was crazy.

01:06:59One of the Race Service guys,

01:07:00he had to sit on the couch during the whole thing.

01:07:02But so I went to that,

01:07:04and then I went to the electric G-Wagon,

01:07:06the G580 reveal at the reservoir,

01:07:08which is like Travis Scott played.

01:07:09No invite for me.

01:07:10And like, yeah, one of the cadets,

01:07:14Kendall Jenner was there or something,

01:07:15and Bradley Cooper.

01:07:17They spent like 20 million bucks getting celebrities there.

01:07:20And yeah, and like, man, that Travis Scott performance,

01:07:25like, I remember afterwards, I'm like, what?

01:07:27On top of the car, right?

01:07:29Well, he wasn't, they didn't know he was gonna do that.

01:07:31Although I spoke with Karl Heinz,

01:07:33who takes care of Mercedes in LA,

01:07:35and he's like, oh, it's so tough.

01:07:36He didn't even, just scuffed in one part.

01:07:37I'm like, was that where he was banging the mic?

01:07:40I don't know, I didn't see it, but.

01:07:42But like, you know, there was some,

01:07:45graphic language, shall we say,

01:07:47and I'm like, what boardroom or stucco car were they like?

01:07:50This is how we market, but they were into it.

01:07:53Mercedes was into it.

01:07:54Yeah, all my colleagues love hip hop.

01:07:57I don't know if it's a German thing, they love hip hop.

01:07:59It's a German thing, yeah.

01:08:00Well, then let me ask you, and this'll be my final question,

01:08:04and then we'll ask you, let you plug,

01:08:06whatever you wanna plug.

01:08:09Are you team Drake?

01:08:12Oh, this is such an easy question.

01:08:15Or Kendrick?

01:08:16Oh, Kendrick all the way.

01:08:18To Pimp a Butterfly is one of my favorite albums

01:08:20of all time.

01:08:21I'm very salty that I was not at the pop-out show.

01:08:23Yes, all right.

01:08:24Johnny's face is like, what are you guys even talking about?

01:08:26I know there's some beef, I don't know.

01:08:28But there was a big, we recorded this

01:08:30two days after Juneteenth, and K-Dot did a big

01:08:36concert for the hood, his hood, in particular,

01:08:40had everybody come out, Dr. Dre did.

01:08:44Everyone was there.

01:08:45And then he played a certain song for five times

01:08:46at the end, which was great.

01:08:49Do you remember when Biggie and Tupac were fighting?

01:08:51I was already bored of rap at that point,

01:08:53that's how old I am.

01:08:53Oh, my goodness.

01:08:55When Eazy left NWA, I was like, it's all over.

01:08:58Oh, my God, tap back in, it's good, it's good again.

01:09:01Tap back in.

01:09:03Do you have a site that you wanna rep,

01:09:06a personal site, or send people to Mercedes?

01:09:10Where would you send NBRDNA folks,

01:09:12to like a YouTube channel or something?

01:09:14No, I think there is a Mercedes-Benz

01:09:15research and development site to go look at.

01:09:18Okay, and then how about you, any personal projects?

01:09:20I recently just launched my art site

01:09:23called De La Design Lab.

01:09:24Been really focusing on doing some cool art

01:09:26around where I come from, which is an Arabic-speaking

01:09:30country, and merging that with car culture.

01:09:33So that's D-A-L-A-L, designlab.com.

01:09:39Yeah.

01:09:40Okay, awesome.

01:09:40I brought you guys some stickers.

01:09:41Oh, neat.

01:09:42MR2 stickers.

01:09:44Let's trade.

01:09:44Oh, nice, cool.

01:09:45D-A-L-A-L, thank you so much.

01:09:46D-A-L-A-L is great, thank you so much.

01:09:47Yeah, thank you for having me, this was a lot of fun.

01:09:49♪♪♪

01:09:54♪♪♪

01:09:59♪♪♪

01:10:04♪♪♪

01:10:11The Inevitable Vodcast, brought to you

01:10:13by the all-electric Nissan Ariya.

01:10:16Inspired by the future, designed for the now.

01:10:24♪♪♪

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