'We're stuck in the same old formula: No NATO membership until Ukraine finishes this war'
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00:00Thank you very much for being with us. We start with the situation in Ukraine. It is
00:07a distressing development this Monday. Russia firing missiles at cities across the country
00:13in broad daylight. At least 36 civilians were killed. And Kyiv's main children's hospital
00:19has been badly damaged. Now, we can say that in total in the Kyiv region, 22 people lost
00:26their lives and, of course, the damage at the children's hospital is extensive. This
00:31hit today across Ukraine was part of a wide-ranging attack on the country. Russia, of course,
00:35has been stepping up its attacks in places such as Kharkiv, the region in the north-east
00:41near to the border. But this time, a whole sequence of missiles was fired across the
00:46country, very much part of Russia upping the pressure. Why has this happened now? Hopefully,
00:51we'll be getting that insight on that from our guests who'll be joining us very shortly. But
00:56whilst we're waiting for that, let me tell you a bit more about the issues that have affected
01:00that hospital. It's Okhmadyadet the hospital concerned. It is well-renowned worldwide,
01:05according to Volodymyr Zelensky, as a place where children who are sick are made better.
01:10Let's take a look at our report. Volunteers clearing the rubble,
01:15searching for survivors, after a devastating Russian missile attack killed dozens across
01:20the country, striking residential buildings and a children's hospital.
01:24My daughter started screaming. I ran into the ward. We were told to go down into the
01:29basement. I grabbed my daughter in the corridor and there was a second explosion. I could not
01:36think that such a thing could happen, that there could be attacks on a hospital with
01:39sick children. It's difficult to describe in words. The intensive care unit, operating
01:45theatres and oncology departments of the Okhmadyadet children's hospital were all damaged,
01:50and it was forced to shut down. Volodymyr Zelensky pledged a firm response.
01:55I'd like to hear from our partners a greater resilience and a stronger response to the blow
02:02that Russia has once again delivered on our population, on our lands and on our children.
02:07The daytime barrage targeted five Ukrainian cities with more than 40 missiles and the
02:13Kinzhal hypersonic missiles used in the attack are among the most advanced Russian weapons,
02:18flying at ten times the speed of sound, making them difficult to intercept. Western leaders
02:23who have backed Ukraine in the war are holding a three-day NATO summit in Washington, starting
02:28on Tuesday.
02:29That was Tom Canetti with that report. Let's bring in Peter Zalmayev from the Eurasia Democracy
02:34Initiative. Peter, joining us live from Kyiv. Peter, thanks for joining us. And can I start
02:39by giving you our sympathies, especially with the people affected in this strike on
02:43the children's hospital, which is something I think which will resonate with people around
02:46the world when they hear a children's hospital has been struck by missiles in this way. Can
02:51you give us a sense of what is happening there now? Clearly the mood must be one of devastation
02:57and anger, I imagine.
02:59As I was rushing to the studios for this interview, in fact, another siren, another air raid just
03:07rang out to the tune of probably four or five. Today it's been quite a while since
03:12the enemy struck on the capital. But once again, the pattern has been quite clear over
03:18the last three years, you know, in light of the big NATO summit coming up starting tomorrow,
03:25as a matter of fact, in Washington, which will be the 75th such, 75th year celebration
03:31of it. Vladimir Putin is sending an unmistakable signal that he has not stood down. He, you
03:40know, remains fixed on the idea of Ukraine capitulating, controlling the country. Nothing
03:49will sway him otherwise. You know, as you saw, the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban
03:55was here in Kyiv. Then he visited Moscow. He's visiting with Xi Jinping in Beijing today.
04:01And he, being a close and very faithful friend of Vladimir Putin, came away from Moscow empty-handed.
04:08And Orban, when he came to visit Ukraine, which message was he bringing with him, do
04:14you think? A message from the EU or a message from Putin?
04:17Well, as you know, was evidenced by the subsequent speeches and statements by Western leaders,
04:27no one really wanted Orban to go. He, you know, he was not really approved at the highest
04:34level. So he was traveling there in pretty much his private capacity. It was the capacity
04:38of a prime minister of Hungary. You know, he didn't hear anything new in Moscow, and
04:44he didn't provide any constructive suggestions to Kyiv. As a matter of fact, you can make
04:50an argument he was carrying water for Xi Jinping himself. You know, Viktor Orban is sitting
04:56tight and pretty, hoping to continue receiving subsidies from Brussels and also attracting
05:02investments from China. We in Ukraine do not see Viktor Orban as an honest, you know, interlocutor
05:09and an honest broker. He's definitely a very, you know, dangerous player. I think we see
05:17him as a Trojan horse within the European community.
05:21And Peter, Vladimir Zelensky will be going to NATO and asking for the things that he's
05:26been asking for since February 2022. Again, it's more missiles, it's better air defenses,
05:32it's the chance to strike back. What do you want NATO to do and say? What do you want
05:36the EU to do and say? What more can they provide? Give us a sense of what you need.
05:40Well, coming back to the same old topic we've discussed, you know, over the last three years
05:45on this program, you know, what we would want to hear is for NATO to say, Ukraine, become
05:50part of us. Come into NATO. Welcome. It's not going to happen. The formula remains the
05:55same. We're stuck in the same old formula. No NATO membership unless Ukraine, and until
06:01Ukraine finishes this war. It is a way to encourage Putin to continue waging this war,
06:07because his rationale, at least the one he provided to the world, is to prevent NATO
06:11from expanding to Ukraine. So short of that, we definitely want a strengthening of the
06:18air defense systems. Zelensky has said if we get 8 to 9, it could cover pretty much
06:24the entire country. And we definitely want the US to lift the remaining objections to
06:32using the attack on those missiles so Ukraine can answer Russia symmetrically and to try
06:38to take out all these capabilities deep inside Russia's territory. Because Russia continues
06:45to enjoy superiority in the air. We also need those F-16s as fast as possible.
06:53Do you take heart in the fact here in Peter there's been an election in France. The far
06:57right was tipped to win. The far right, of course, only today, has banded up with Viktor
07:01Orban to form the Patriots of Europe group in the European Union. Do you take heart from
07:06the fact here in France that the far right has been basically pushed aside by the electors?
07:10They've actually backed a left-wing coalition. It's not as straightforward as that, but there's
07:14been this move towards the left. Does this leave you with any sense of optimism about
07:18what France is about and how France's support for Ukraine will continue?
07:23I understand that the confusion that President Macron wanted to clear has only thickened.
07:31I follow the news. I know it's a very complicated situation in France, but we do take heart
07:35from the fact that the right-wing coalition, the leader of which said that we will definitely
07:43withdraw the permission for Ukraine to use our weapons, our missiles, to hit deep inside
07:50Russia's territory, that coalition didn't pass the threshold. And so we are encouraged
07:56that the worst case scenario didn't pan out.
08:00Peter Zalmayev, it's always a pleasure to speak to you, even though the circumstances
08:04are of course very difficult. Thank you, sir, for joining us. You always provide us with
08:08great insight and we appreciate your time, sir. Do be careful. Thank you very much indeed,
08:11Peter Zalmayev of the Eurasia Democracy Initiative joining us live from Kyiv. Thank you very
08:15much indeed. We continue to watch, of course, for all developments on the situation regarding
08:21Ukraine.