We’ve all been there: Tossing and turning on a long-haul flight, or in an unfamiliar hotel bed. But it doesn’t have to be this way! Enter Anne Bartolucci, a licensed psychologist and a certified behavioral sleep medicine specialist. She’s the founder of Atlanta Insomnia & Behavioral Health Services, P.C. and the author of Better Sleep for the Overachiever. In other words, she knows her sleep—and she specializes in helping people improve their sleep without medication.
In this week’s episode, host Aislyn Greene chats with Anne about the one thing everyone should bring on their next flight, the proper use of melatonin (turns out most of us don’t use it correctly), and yes, how to get a decent night’s sleep in a new destination.
Read the full transcript here: https://rebrand.ly/g8ibal1
Discover more episodes of the Unpacked by AFAR podcast here:
https://link.chtbl.com/AFARYouTubeUnpacked
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In this week’s episode, host Aislyn Greene chats with Anne about the one thing everyone should bring on their next flight, the proper use of melatonin (turns out most of us don’t use it correctly), and yes, how to get a decent night’s sleep in a new destination.
Read the full transcript here: https://rebrand.ly/g8ibal1
Discover more episodes of the Unpacked by AFAR podcast here:
https://link.chtbl.com/AFARYouTubeUnpacked
----
CONNECT WITH AFAR
Afar.com is a digital and print magazine that publishes travel tips, guides, news, and stories: https://www.afar.com
Get updates on the latest articles, travel news, and more from AFAR by signing up for the AFAR newsletter: https://afar.com/newsletters
Follow AFAR on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AfarMedia
Follow AFAR on Twitter: https://twitter.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/afarmedia
Category
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TravelTranscript
00:00 Hey everyone, and welcome to the third season of Unpacked, a podcast by afar.
00:04 I'm Aislinn, and as you can probably tell by this giant microphone in front of my face,
00:08 I host the show. Every week on the podcast, we unpack a different tricky topic in travel,
00:15 and this week is no exception. This is Unpacked.
00:28 I'm Aislinn Green, and this is Unpacked, the podcast that unpacks one tricky topic in travel
00:33 each week. And this week, I'm actually in Toronto for AFAR's annual company meeting,
00:38 where I'm also reporting our next unpacking episode about the city. So as you're listening
00:44 to this, I may be eating Tibetan momos or belting out Purple Rain karaoke or some other fun thing
00:50 that I get to call work. I'm actually quite excited to find out what's in a pea meal bacon sandwich.
00:56 So this week, we're going to replay one of our most popular episodes from last season.
01:00 And it's one that I really need to take to heart right now, because I am not the world's
01:04 best sleeper, and it's even harder for me on the road. So enter Ana Bartolucci, a licensed
01:10 psychologist and a certified behavioral sleep specialist. She's the founder of Atlanta Insomnia
01:16 and Behavioral Health Services, PC, and the author of Better Sleep for the Overachiever.
01:21 In other words, she knows her sleep, and she specializes in helping people improve their
01:26 sleep without medication. In our chat, we covered everything from the one thing everyone should
01:31 bring in their next flight to the proper use of melatonin. Turns out most of us don't use it right.
01:36 So let's catch some Zs.
01:38 Ana, welcome to Unpacked.
01:43 Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
01:46 Of course. All right. First, I would love to just share a little bit more about you.
01:50 Can you tell us about your work in the realm of sleep?
01:53 Sure. I am a clinical psychologist, and I have extra specification and training and certification
02:02 in behavioral sleep medicine. So basically, I see a bunch of insomnia patients. I help people sleep
02:11 without drugs. That's my main thing. I also do general psychotherapy. And it's something I really
02:16 love doing because sleep touches every part of our lives. And I love being able to make such a big
02:23 difference for my patients in such a short amount of time.
02:27 That's amazing. But now here's the million dollar question.
02:30 How do you sleep on a plane? Do you sleep well? Are you a good quote unquote plane sleeper?
02:37 So I will say I sleep really well, generally. A lot of it depends on how much room I have to
02:43 spread out because I'm tall and 5'9". So I would say I'm probably a let's say,
02:49 moderate to okay plane sleeper.
02:52 I mean, you're right. So much depends on like if you get into business class, right? You have those
02:56 great life flight seats. But I think for our purposes, for our listeners, we'll just focus on
03:02 sleeping in economy or proven economy. So from your perspective, what would you say are kind of
03:09 the tips that you would share? Feel free to elaborate, get as detailed as necessary.
03:13 - Well, of course, a big problem with sleeping on planes is the noise. And you had commented
03:21 on my headphones. I absolutely love my noise canceling headphones. And it was funny that
03:28 you contacted me about doing this interview this week because I actually flew back from
03:33 Florida on Monday. And I put my headphones on and I was doing my meditation. And my meditation sound
03:40 is actually very similar to the white noise sound that I sleep with. And I found myself dozing off
03:45 because that sound is a trigger for me to sleep. So I would say it's not just the noise canceling
03:50 headphones because then you have the noises that the people on the plane are making because the
03:55 noise canceling headphones, they're good for that certain frequency, that droning, the plane engine,
04:02 you still get a little bit of it, but they can actually make you more likely to hear like if
04:06 somebody's talking in the next row or if the flight attendants are chatting or somebody's got their
04:14 movie sound turned up too loud. So I would say noise canceling headphones plus white noise,
04:19 especially if it's white noise that you have trained yourself to sleep with, would be super
04:23 helpful. - That's a great idea. And just for our listeners, I'm going to briefly describe Anna's
04:29 headphones. They look like a beautiful rose gold. And you said that they're the Bose?
04:33 - Yes, they're the Bose QuietComfort 35. - Nice. Okay, great. What else would you
04:39 recommend that a traveler have in their plane sleep kit?
04:43 - Definitely after you go through security, get some water because of course dehydration is another
04:49 major, major issue with sleeping on planes. And of course you want to balance out so you don't
04:54 actually have to pee every hour, which not only disrupts your sleep, but that of your seatmates
05:01 as well. So yeah, be considerate, but make sure that you have water or perhaps something to help
05:07 moisten your mouth. And then also chapstick, because you don't want to be uncomfortable that
05:14 way. Moisturizer, lotion, anything that you can do to help keep your skin from drying out, because
05:19 that can be disturbing as well. And also you don't want to be itchy. - Yeah, yeah. That's so funny.
05:25 It's not something I would have thought about, but yeah, you'll wake up if you're itchy.
05:30 - Exactly. And then of course temperature, because airplanes tend to be very cold. And even if you
05:36 don't have a little thingy blowing on you, it can be uncomfortable. So I would say don't
05:41 necessarily count on airlines blankets because they tend to be kind of thin, nice and soft,
05:46 but they're thin. So make sure that you have a sweatshirt and also some comfy socks,
05:53 some comfy thick socks. - Do you use a neck pillow if you're on a long flight? Do you use those?
06:00 - I used to not, but I probably would if I were to go on a long international flight at this point,
06:06 because yeah, that's the other thing, because there's really no good place to put your head.
06:09 - Right? Yeah. I mean, unless you have one of those window seats where I feel like you can
06:14 kind of create a little bit more of a pillow support, but yeah, if you were in the middle
06:20 seat, what would you do? Would you say a neck pillow is key to that? - I would say neck pillow
06:26 would be, or something that you can use to support your head and keep it straight, or at least not
06:31 tilted too far to one side or the other. Yeah. It seems like the middle seats would be perfect
06:35 for my patients who tell me that they basically sleep like vampires and you're like straight up
06:39 and arms crossed. It's like, that's your best middle seat sleeper. - For side sleepers or
06:44 stomach sleepers, what do you think the best positions are? - Yeah, probably neck pillow or
06:49 some other small pillow where you can lean to one side and curl up a little bit. But again,
06:54 yeah, that would be really hard in the middle seat. So make sure that you like your seat mates.
06:58 - Yes. You mentioned hydration and dehydration, and I know that everyone always says don't drink
07:08 on the plane. So A, is that what you would recommend? And B, I'm one of those people who
07:14 loves to have one of those little like plane cocktails. Alaska has the little stowaway old
07:18 fashion. So say you did indulge in a cocktail, is there any way to recover and still sleep
07:24 relatively well? - So definitely do just one. And then go ahead and watch a movie and sip water
07:32 through the movie to balance yourself back out. Yes, definitely don't go overboard and also maybe
07:37 don't go overboard then on the airplane food, which is of course super salty. So perhaps bring
07:44 something that you could eat that would not be super high in sodium. - Okay. Would that be like
07:51 the best, your best recommendation for food in terms of sleep? - Food is one of those things
07:56 that's very individual for people. So it would be more, be aware of what your nighttime food needs
08:04 are because you want to have that balance between, like you don't want to be super full and you also
08:12 don't want to be hungry when you go to sleep. So in general, it's finding that happy medium.
08:16 And so for sleep in general, we suggest having something that has both carbohydrates and protein.
08:22 So the carbohydrates, so it's satisfying and the protein so that you don't end up with a
08:26 blood sugar spike and adapting that however it needs to look for you on an airplane. Like some
08:32 people need to have a bedtime snack. Other people can't have a bedtime snack because they have
08:35 reflux or some other medical issues. So it's more knowing what your body prefers, but in general,
08:41 yes, staying away from the super high salty food and maybe even being aware of what you eat that
08:47 day would probably be a good idea. And also, people often ask me, well, what about taking
08:53 sleep medication on planes? - Yeah. What do you think? - Again, that is a very individual thing
09:00 because brains are weird. You could give the same drug to two different people that have
09:05 two different reactions. So if you are curious about that, talk to your physician and definitely
09:12 don't let on the plane be the very first time that you're taking this and also be aware that
09:17 things hit you harder in the air, not just alcohol, but also medications. And so
09:24 if you're taking something regularly on the ground, you might not need that dose when you are
09:31 in the air. And of course I'm not a prescriber, so I can't make specific recommendations,
09:35 but these are just general guidelines. So yeah, definitely talk to your prescriber. - Okay. No,
09:41 that's really good advice. I know that in your practice, you try to help people sleep without
09:46 medication. What are your thoughts on melatonin and using that as like a kind of a jet lag,
09:51 more of a jet lag supplement or assistance? - That's basically what melatonin is for. It's
09:57 actually a horrible insomnia drug. It's more for helping to adjust circadian rhythms. The thing to
10:02 remember about melatonin is that the bottles often tell you to take it completely wrong.
10:06 You want to take it nine to 10 hours before your desired wake up time, whereas a lot of them will
10:11 tell you to take it like a half hour before you go to bed. - Oh, interesting. - And also with
10:16 melatonin, it really is true that less is more. Like you're likely to get more benefit from
10:24 a lower dose, like even as little as a half a milligram, than you will from a 10 milligram pill,
10:29 because what happens is if you have too much melatonin, your body metabolizes it through the
10:35 sleep period, which then throws off your internal clock rather than at the beginning of the sleep
10:40 period, which is when it would be mimicking more of when your body is releasing its own melatonin.
10:45 So our melatonin comes out of our brain in a flood. It's called the dim light melatonin onset.
10:51 And so continuous release melatonin definitely does not work like that. And for a lot of people,
10:56 it can actually mess them up. - How long would you recommend that they use it? Is this something
10:59 that's just like first couple of days on the plane and then first couple of days as you're
11:04 adjusting or? - Oh, that's a great question. Definitely you don't want to use it every
11:10 single night for 20 years, which is how a lot of my patients end up using it. So we work them off
11:15 of it. Yes. So it would just be for a few days to help you to get adjusted. - I see. And then
11:20 would you stop when you're feeling relatively like, okay, I'm on this time zone, I'm not falling
11:24 asleep during the day anymore. - Yeah, it would be more like monitoring your own reaction to it.
11:31 But generally most people are able to adjust both with melatonin, but then also with light exposure,
11:37 because a lot of circadian rhythm management is light management and light, of course, being
11:45 natural sunlight. That's our body's main signal for when it's time to be awake. So if you're going
11:49 to be, for example, traveling to the West Coast, you would want to put on sunglasses and have less
11:56 light in the morning before you leave your Eastern time zone and then more light in the afternoon to
12:01 help adjust later. And then the opposite for when you're coming back. - Would you, as part of that,
12:06 kind of recommend that people get on the sleep schedule of their time zone? - Yes. Aligning
12:10 as much as possible when you start your travels, that would be ideal. And of course, on airplanes,
12:16 they serve meals at all the wrong times for that. - I know. - Just do the best you can.
12:21 - Okay. You mentioned light exposure. And so I was just curious, of course, everyone's watching
12:26 movies on planes. Do you have any tips for using screens wisely and realistically, I guess?
12:33 - Ah, yes. The Venn diagram of wisely and realistically, it's a very narrow middle part
12:40 there. Yeah, that's a hard one. I would definitely say if you're traveling West where you're going to
12:50 be on a later schedule, then using screens later is fine on the plane because you're helping
12:54 yourself. However, if you're traveling East, you would want to minimize that. - What if you have
12:59 like blue light blocking glasses? Does that do enough? - It will probably help. I don't know
13:05 if it would completely negate it, but then again, one night of watching screens on the plane is also
13:10 probably not going to screw you up entirely for the rest of your trip. Yeah, it's one of those
13:15 things you don't want to be super anxious about sleep because the more anxious you are about it,
13:19 the less likely it is that you're going to be able to sleep. So like you said, do it wisely,
13:25 do it in moderation. Maybe watch one movie rather than binging an entire TV series on the plane,
13:31 for example. - Yes, I tend to be that type of plane sleeper. I have to admit I don't sleep well,
13:36 and then I just have those crazy zombie eyes when I watch all the TV. So yes, the moderation,
13:43 I love that. That's really good advice. If you could just pick one of those things that someone
13:48 were to do, is there one that you think helps more than any others? - That's a hard one to answer
13:53 because it would depend on the person. Like what bothers them the most? - Like what prevents them
13:59 from sleeping the most if they were at home? - Right. Or if in their experience, what prevents
14:04 them the most from sleeping on planes? Like maybe some people are fine with the noise, but
14:08 their head isn't aligned, they're just not able to go to sleep. Or maybe somebody is,
14:14 they're fine with sleeping in a very weird, curled up, uncomfortable position like my cat,
14:21 but they can't be itchy. So yeah, pick which one you think will disturb you the most. But I think
14:27 for most people, it probably is the noise. - I would love to just segue more generally into
14:45 sleeping while traveling. So say, okay, you've slept well on the plane or not, now you're in
14:51 this new destination. How do you adjust to a new time zone once you're there? - So again, it is all
14:56 about light management and hotels have these amazing blackout curtains, or most of them do.
15:04 But if you're trying to get on a new time zone, then having the curtains open at least a little
15:10 bit in the morning so that you can get that light signal will be super helpful. - I think most people
15:15 have been in a hotel with blackout curtains and then you sleep until like 2 p.m. - Yeah, exactly.
15:19 And you're like, whoops. - What happened? Yeah, okay. So maybe leave them open a crack so that
15:25 natural morning light. Okay. Have you tried any of those jet lag? I'm going to use hacks,
15:33 for lack of a better word. Like there are the ones that kind of Gwyneth Paltrow grounding,
15:39 where I think you go outside and put your feet, bare feet in the grass and kind of ranging to
15:46 the more reasonable ones, like adjusting your schedule before you leave. - Yes, I have definitely
15:52 not gone and stood in the grass. The one that I have done is the trying to adjust the schedule
15:58 prior to going with using melatonin even a few days beforehand to start tugging the schedule
16:05 earlier. I mean, you end up having maybe some tired nights, but it also gives you a chance
16:10 to see how you respond to melatonin before trying it while you're away. - That's a good point.
16:15 How would you adjust that? Like, are you adjusting your schedule on hour each night? - The way that
16:21 I typically recommend is to take the melatonin at what will be your bedtime, but adjusted for
16:28 the time difference. So for example, if you're going someplace that is six hours ahead and you
16:33 plan on keeping a 10 o'clock bedtime, you would take melatonin at four. So again, just a couple
16:38 of days beforehand and then when the day you travel, it's definitely something that has worked
16:42 for me that I've seen work for my patients as well. But as always ask your doctor before starting a
16:48 new medication. - Yes, definitely. So one thing that I often struggle with is actually sleeping
16:54 in a new bed, especially the first night or two. And I read a story recently that talked about
17:00 that's because our brains are wired to be in protection mode. Do you have any thoughts on
17:06 that or kind of adjusting to a new just sleep environment? - I agree that can be an issue for
17:12 some people. And I've noticed, especially as I've gotten older, not that I'm that old, I'm in my
17:17 forties, but I have definitely gotten more sensitive to sleeping in hotels the first night.
17:22 And I would say white noise is a big help with that because it will help to block out the doors
17:28 closing and people in the hallway and other little noises that may not have woken you at home, but are
17:34 more likely to wake you while you're away because yeah, your brain is a little bit more on alert.
17:38 - What white noise do you use? - I use an app that allows me to do a mix of white noise. And so it's
17:46 basically a bunch of very steady kind of water sounds and white noise and just something really
17:53 super soothing and simple, but that doesn't have a loop. 'Cause sometimes if people are listening
17:58 to a white noise that has a loop, they'll start anticipating the loop starting over, which doesn't
18:02 help. - So like they're anticipating it while they're sleeping or if they're struggling to fall
18:06 asleep? - If they're struggling to fall asleep. They'll either listen to it and get annoyed.
18:10 - All right, no loops, no white noise loops. - No loops, exactly.
18:16 - Do you have any other kind of thoughts on just sleep as it relates to travel? Other
18:22 suggestions once you're in your destination that may help or harm things to avoid?
18:27 - Okay, so my main hotel sleep hack is actually to bring a humidifier with you.
18:34 For this most recent trip, my husband found probably on Amazon or Target or something,
18:41 this little bitty humidifier that you just fill up with hotel water and it worked great. And
18:47 that's really good because of course hotels also tend to be super dry. And if you are sharing the
18:54 bed with a snorer, it can actually help. It moistens the airspace somehow and keeps it from getting as
19:01 inflamed. It can make a big difference. - How have you noticed that has changed your sleep?
19:07 - If I don't have it, I wake up so much more often with a dry mouth and needing to drink. And of
19:13 course, when you're traveling, you're probably also having more salty food. So you're more likely
19:17 to wake up anyway. And so think about it as not making it a miraculous sleep improvement, but
19:24 anything you can do to help incrementally make sleep better will still help. The other one
19:31 I do is that I will bring, I either have a little pillow that I bring with me or a crocheted blanket
19:39 that I bring with me. And both of those smell like home. And the blanket I really like because
19:46 of course hotel pillows, there's that joke that one is never enough and two is way too many.
19:50 - Yes. - And so having the blanket allows me to
19:53 adjust the height of my sleeping surface. - Nice. Yeah.
19:56 - Yes. - Yeah. Unless you're staying in one of
19:58 those hotels that has the pillow concierge. I've only seen a few of those, but they have like a
20:06 pillow menu. - Wow.
20:08 - I know it's next level. Cause I actually have seen, it seems like hotels are trying to get in
20:14 on this sleep game to help travelers sleep better. And I've actually been curious to know, I have not
20:20 availed myself of any of those, but I'm curious to know how much it does really improve travelers
20:26 sleep to use some of those services. - I don't know. And I think it's really
20:31 interesting because one thing they're taking advantage of is if people have trouble sleeping,
20:35 a lot of the times they'll sleep better outside of their home environment because they don't have all
20:40 of the anxiety of insomnia associated with that novel place. And so I'm wondering if these hotels,
20:48 especially the ones that are really heavily advertising, come here and get a good night's
20:52 sleep and like, and that's why you go there. - Yeah.
20:54 - Are taking advantage of these behavioral associations. And so I'd be really curious to see
21:00 how that all pans out. But when my colleagues and I saw that, we were like, yep, that's exactly what
21:05 they're doing. - That is so interesting. So
21:08 people who have insomnia may actually sleep better in a new environment.
21:13 - Yes. Sometimes they sleep worse, but I think a lot of that is because they're so anxious about
21:17 their sleep already. And so they're anticipating they won't sleep well, but this is a good
21:22 opportunity to practice beginner's mind. It's like, okay, we don't know what's going to happen.
21:26 Let's just see. - Do you find that sleep
21:28 meditations help some of your patients? - The thing with sleep meditations is if you're
21:33 doing them before bed, they can be great at winding down. However, you don't necessarily
21:38 want to listen to them as you are falling asleep because what you're doing is training yourself to
21:43 become dependent on them. And then what happens if the app goes away or if here in Atlanta, we have
21:52 tornadoes, we have the occasional hurricane, we have the occasional ice storm and the power goes
21:58 out, what if you can't charge your device? So typically we prefer to make sleep as simple
22:03 as possible. - Well, I was actually curious,
22:06 and this is outside of the realm of travel a little bit, but how do you think we are sleeping
22:10 as a culture right now? - We have this really interesting
22:14 contrast of the fact that there has been so much more attention put on sleep. Like for example,
22:21 Matthew Walker's book, "Why We Sleep" and his TED Talk has been really good about educating people
22:26 on sleep and also making them super anxious about whether they're going to die tomorrow if they
22:31 don't get eight hours every single night. I know the next sleep convention I go to with him, I'm
22:36 going to have to buy that mana drink because I've gotten some business because of that.
22:40 So we have this one super hyper awareness and of course all of the different devices to help you
22:47 track your sleep, which by the way are not accurate. And then on the other hand, we have
22:51 screens and we have hustle culture and all of these other cultural things that are working
23:01 against us being able to sleep. And so what I would say the biggest thing that has changed,
23:06 especially over the last few years, is that people are a lot more anxious about their sleep,
23:11 but they're not necessarily sleeping better. - Like more aware, but sleeping worse.
23:15 - Yes, and it's kind of hard to say whether they're sleeping worse now or that they were
23:23 always sleeping badly, now they're more aware that they're sleeping badly.
23:25 - Yeah, because I think you're right. I feel like everywhere I turn, there's
23:30 something about sleeping better. I have an aura ring and it tells me my sleep score every day,
23:35 and there's so many books and podcasts. And yet I do feel like the way that most of us live
23:40 doesn't seem to jive with sleeping very well or peacefully. So you mentioned that you feel like
23:47 devices aren't super accurate. Do you want to elaborate on that at all?
23:51 - They are good for some things. So for example, if you're concerned that you move around a lot,
24:01 at night, or you want to get a general sense of how things are going, that's fine. But as for the
24:08 very specifics, like there is no way your aura ring, for example, can tell you whether you're
24:12 in light sleep or heavy sleep, or definitely not REM sleep, because the only way something's going
24:19 to be able to tell if you're in those sleep stages is if it's reading your brainwaves.
24:23 So these devices essentially are checking your movement, your position, and your heart rate,
24:32 and putting it into some proprietary algorithm that is associated with certain things. So
24:39 for some people, they can be helpful, but for a lot of people, they end up causing more anxiety.
24:44 What if you wake up and you're like, "Wow, I feel awesome this morning. That must have been a great
24:49 night of sleep." And then you look at your device and it's like, "They're going to give you a 60.
24:54 You got a D-minus on your sleep last night." Then you start feeling bad, or you start looking for,
24:59 "Oh, well, do I really feel that good? I'm not sure. There was that one time I woke up and I
25:03 turned around for a little bit." So again, it depends on the person as to whether those things
25:08 can be helpful. - Okay. Yeah, that's good to take these things with a grain of salt. What do you
25:15 think most people get wrong about sleep? - Ooh, the sleep myths. Yes. The big one I see is that
25:24 people, of course, hear that you should go to bed at the same time every single day. However,
25:30 a lot of people will end up going to bed whether they're sleepy or not, but then they end up,
25:34 if they're not sleepy, lying awake in bed, which then feeds the underlying sleep problem, or can
25:40 lead to an underlying sleep problem. So we recommend that you wait until you're sleepy
25:46 before you go to bed, and then keep wake-up time consistent because that is where your circadian
25:50 rhythm anchors. - Okay. Yes, I feel like every story about sleep is like, "Go to bed at the
25:55 same time." Anything else that you would want to share about sleeping or sleeping while traveling
26:02 that you think would be helpful for listeners? - I would say the important thing, especially with
26:07 all of this sleep information out there, is to practice that beginner's mind around sleep. Say,
26:16 "Okay, I'm not going to put pressure on myself one way or the other," because then, of course,
26:22 a lot of what happens is that people get super anxious about, "Well, if I don't sleep tonight,
26:25 how am I going to function tomorrow?" I can tell you, at this point, from having looked at probably
26:30 tens of thousands of sleep diaries, that how we feel during the day is not 100% correlated with
26:35 what happens at night. There are other things that feed into how we feel during the day.
26:40 So it's not all sleep. So yes, sleep is important, but stay balanced and mindful about it.
26:48 - I love that. You had mentioned the book. Are there any kind of resources for people who might
26:53 want to investigate sleep a little bit more that you recommend? - Oh, well, of course, I have written
26:59 a wonderful book called "Better Sleep for the Overachiever" because I have seen that personality
27:05 type so much in my practice. And so finally, I decided to take 10 years' worth of experiences and
27:11 conversations and advice and distill it into a book. And so it is partially about sleep, but it
27:18 is also a lot about the other things that people, in general, not just overachievers, that feed into
27:25 sleep problems. Like, for example, there is a chapter called "Relaxation for People Who Can't
27:29 Relax." So that is "Better Sleep for the Overachiever." You can find it anywhere books are
27:37 sold. It is available in paperback, ebook, and audiobook, narrated by me. So if you find my voice
27:43 soothing, you can listen to it before bed. - Your voice is very soothing. - Oh, thank you.
27:50 You can also find me on Instagram @psychupacademy where I talk a lot about sleep and also other
28:00 daytime things like procrastination because, of course, helping people sleep is also helping with
28:06 a lot of habit change. And so I have really dug into procrastination and even have a course now.
28:13 So, yes. - It sounds like you're very passionate about your work. - I am. I love helping people
28:20 to live and be their best selves. - Well, thank you, Anna. I really appreciate your time and all
28:24 your wisdom. And yes, we will share links to your books and audiobook and everything in the show
28:30 notes. So thank you again for being here. - Thank you so much, Aislinn. I really enjoyed it.
28:34 - Thanks again, Anna. We'll link to Anna's website and social handles in the show notes,
28:42 and we'll be back next week with our regularly scheduled programming.
28:46 And I'll know what's in a penile bacon sandwich. Ready for more unpacking? Visit afar.com and be
28:52 sure to follow us on Instagram and X. We are @afarmedia. If you enjoyed today's exploration,
28:58 I hope you'll come back for more great stories. Subscribing always makes that easy. And be sure
29:04 to rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platforms. It helps other travelers find
29:09 it. And if you ever want to ask a question or suggest a topic for coverage, you can reach out
29:14 to us at afar.com/feedback or email us at unpacked@afar.com. This has been Unpacked,
29:20 a production of Afar Media. The podcast is produced by Aislinn Green and Nikki Gulteland.
29:25 Music composition by Chris Collin. And remember, the world is complicated.
29:31 We're here to help you unpack it. Okay, that was our show. Don't forget to hit like and
29:40 subscribe on your way out. And I'll include a link to the podcast below.
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