Unpacked: S3, E7: The Secrets to Making Better Choices in Travel—and Beyond

AFAR

Have you ever gotten stuck in indecision? Maybe it was around where to travel, or when to book your tickets, or even something as small as where to eat when you’re on the road. Well, this week’s guest is an expert at cutting through the noise and helping her clients—and now you—make fast, solid decisions. Her name is Nell McShane Wulfhart, and she’s a professional decision coach.   Read the full transcript here: https://rebrand.ly/vvfsdcu  Discover more episodes of the Unpacked by AFAR podcast here:  https://link.chtbl.com/AFARYouTubeUnpacked  ---- CONNECT WITH AFAR Afar.com is a digital and print magazine that publishes travel tips, guides, news, and stories: https://www.afar.com  Get updates on the latest articles, travel news, and more from AFAR by signing up for the AFAR newsletter: https://afar.com/newsletters  Follow AFAR on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AfarMedia Follow AFAR on Twitter: https://twitter.com/afarmedia Follow AFAR on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afarmedia Follow AFAR on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/afarmedia

Transcript

00:00 Hey everyone, and welcome to the third season of Unpacked, a podcast by afar.

00:04 I'm Aislinn, and as you can probably tell by this giant microphone in front of my face,

00:08 I host the show. Every week on the podcast, we unpack a different tricky topic in travel,

00:15 and this week is no exception. This is Unpacked.

00:18 Now, welcome to Unpacked.

00:28 Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

00:30 And we're here to talk about something really interesting, and I was so delighted. The moment

00:35 I saw your email, I had to reach out because now you are, in addition to being a fantastic

00:40 freelance writer, you are a professional decision maker. How did this happen?

00:45 Well, first of all, I should say that if professional decision maker sounds like a

00:50 job that I totally made up, that is correct. I did make it up. I've been doing it, but I've

00:55 been doing it for like 10 years now. Basically, people just call me when they have a really tough

01:01 decision to make, and I tell them what to do. That's it.

01:06 So you've just been doing this naturally with friends and family, or are you

01:11 just a really good decision maker?

01:14 I've always been a good decision maker. I'm just sort of like a professional bossy boots. I love

01:20 giving advice. I have that kind of fixer brain. If someone starts telling me about a problem they

01:25 have, I cannot help it. I can see what they should do, and I start telling them, and eventually my

01:31 friends and family were just like, "Shut up." Someone suggested, "Maybe there's people who

01:36 actually want this advice and would pay for it." It turns out that that's true. People struggle so

01:44 much with decision making, and sometimes just having a total stranger, a completely neutral

01:51 third party to weigh in on what you should do, it just helps them get unstuck, and then they can

01:57 move on with their lives.

01:58 I love it. I think it's so true, and especially when it comes to big things or even small

02:04 things. What have you seen since you started your business?

02:06 Oh, I mean, okay. I've been doing this since 2013, so it's really run the gamut. A lot of

02:13 them are sometimes similar. There's a really high proportion of people deciding between

02:18 living in New York and living in LA. Those two cities, for some reason, come up a lot.

02:23 That's funny.

02:25 Job offers, "Should I take this job offer?" Career changes are a big one, like, "Should I keep

02:30 doing what I'm doing or try something totally different?" "Should I have a baby?" Also popular

02:35 choice.

02:36 Interesting.

02:37 "Should I get divorced?" Also something that people come to me for advice on.

02:43 Then there's stuff that's much more, I think, seemingly insignificant, but people get really

02:49 stuck on it. One woman called me to help her decide what color to paint her living room,

02:54 and someone else wanted to know whether or not they should get a tattoo removed.

03:00 Yeah, so it's a real spectrum.

03:04 Yeah, it's really a real spectrum. How do you approach these? Because they are so different.

03:10 There's a lot of different emotional weight in there, so how do you process with somebody?

03:13 There is a lot of emotional weight in there, but what they all have in common is that they've

03:17 been taking a really long time to make the decision. They're usually at the point where

03:22 they're spiraling. The woman who needed help deciding what color to paint the living room,

03:28 her house had a fire and they had to redecorate everything, so she was just

03:36 decisioned out. This one, for some reason, was just like, "She just couldn't make this one final

03:41 decision because she'd been making so many decisions." When it comes to something like,

03:46 "Should I have a baby?" or "Should I have a second baby?" or "Should I move to a new city?"

03:50 or "Should I take this job off?" The decision-making process is more or less the same.

03:56 There's more emotional impact, but the thing that they have in common is that these people are

04:01 really stuck and that they need to take some kind of action. It almost doesn't matter sometimes what

04:07 the action is as long as they do something. I help them do that. I think that there are two

04:14 kinds of people. There are the chronically indecisive people who are like, they don't

04:19 know what to wear in the morning, they don't know what to have for dinner at night. I think we're

04:22 all that person at some point, but I would say that more of my clients are actually high-achieving,

04:28 type A kind of personalities. For some reason that I have not been able to figure out,

04:34 and I wish I could, every once in a while, even these high achievers come across some decision

04:39 that they just get bogged down in, and they just need someone to pull them out of the swamp of a

04:46 decision and get set them on their way. Then they go off and they take action on that decision,

04:50 and I never hear from them again because they're doing fine. There are those two kinds of decisions.

04:56 The chronically indecisive people just need to make a lot more faster decisions,

05:02 but the people who get stuck on one big decision, they just need some temporary help and then

05:06 they're fine. >> Yeah, yeah. I know some chronically indecisive people. It is a tough

05:13 place to be in because it's like everything that you cover is like... >> It's awful. I mean,

05:18 I really feel for those people, and I'm always trying to load them down with decision-making

05:22 advice when we do a session because I want to help them in the future just to make faster decisions,

05:27 faster decisions, more decisions, because it's just such a waste of time. >> Do you think it's

05:34 because for those folks, and maybe it depends, that it's almost like they don't want to close

05:38 any doors in their life, and so if they make a decision, then automatically you're closing

05:43 another pathway. >> Exactly. They don't want to close any doors, and it's really what... It's

05:47 just a fear of regret. The decision-making business is just the regret minimization business.

05:52 Nobody ever wants to feel that really uncomfortable feeling of like, "Oh, no. I should have done this

05:57 other thing," and for some people, that is just paralyzing, and it really sucks, but it's really

06:04 hard to come to terms with the fact that, yeah, you're going to make some decisions that you wish

06:08 you hadn't made, but I think the chance for regret... The thing that I think people regret

06:13 the most is the hours, days, weeks, months, years that they spend deciding. >> And why do you think

06:23 it's so easy to either make a bad decision or to sit within that indecision? >> Sitting within

06:30 indecision is definitely worse. When it comes to decision-making, I don't have a crystal ball. I

06:37 can't predict the future. All I can do is help you analyze the information you have right now

06:42 and where you want to go and see which path makes sense. That's all that I can do, so sometimes the

06:48 decisions are not going to work out. We cannot know if this new job that you take is like,

06:52 all of a sudden, the boss is like a terrible micromanager. You just can't know some things

06:56 in advance, so I wouldn't say that there are no bad decisions. There are definitely some bad

07:02 decisions, but really, if you just make the best choice you can with the information you have at

07:06 the time, that's as good as it gets. No decision is really the worst for me because, again, like

07:14 I said, this waste of time and sort of energy and brain space that making these decisions takes up,

07:20 you could be doing so much more with that. I think you said it's like the fear of regret. It's the

07:26 fear of making a bad choice. It's the fear of feeling bad later. It's the fear of saying goodbye

07:30 to something that's good. Actually, I just wrote a newsletter about this, like how to say no to

07:35 good things because sometimes when you're making a choice, both of them have pros and cons, and

07:40 choosing one thing means saying goodbye to the pros of the thing you didn't choose.

07:45 Sometimes you have to give up something good to get something great.

07:49 How can we get better at making good decisions?

07:53 First of all, I think it's important to get faster at making decisions. I would say that in general,

07:59 people should think about how long they think they need to make a decision and then cut that time in

08:06 half. This tends to scare people because they don't want to think they left any avenue unexplored,

08:11 they need to do more research, but the quality of the decision will almost never suffer because you

08:17 took less time to make it, and then you get all that time back. I just think testing things out

08:25 is so much more useful if you're trying to decide, like, "Should I start a side hustle or something?"

08:30 You could spend six months thinking about it, or you could just start it, and six months from now,

08:35 you will know whether or not you want to do a side hustle. You will have real tangible data.

08:40 It's just so much more useful to take action than to deliberate and deliberate and deliberate.

08:45 Okay. How much do you think that the gut is involved in making? How much do you bring that

08:53 into your work? I think the conflict with decision making is that people think they

08:57 should be making entirely logical decisions and good on paper decisions, but the truth,

09:03 at least what I found in my decade of doing this, is that people are always going to do what they

09:07 want to do deep down inside them. My only job is to figure out what it is they actually want,

09:14 and then just write them a permission slip and say, "It's okay to go do that thing," because

09:19 most of the time, it is. What we call gut, I guess, that can have a bunch of different meanings,

09:26 but when we're checking with how our stomach feels about a particular decision,

09:32 we're taking into account all the paper stuff. We're thinking about all those things.

09:36 But really, I would say if your gut is saying, "No, don't do this," it's fine. Don't do it.

09:42 Just decide not to do it and then go do the other thing. Then move on. Yeah, exactly.

09:48 Well, since we're talking about travel, where do you think that people get stuck around decisions

09:56 when it comes to travel, living abroad? People get stuck in all sorts of places,

10:02 but I think the biggest hurdle is where do I go? Actually, I was thinking I should offer that as a

10:08 service. I've spent so many years, like you said, I've lived all around the world. I've spent so

10:12 many years travel writing, and I make decisions for a living. I'm the perfect person to tell

10:17 people where to go on vacation. Or where to live. Yes. People call me about that all the time,

10:23 and I love talking about that. That is cool. But I think that's the biggest thing. There are so

10:29 many options. The world is so small now. We can go almost anywhere. Just figuring out, narrowing

10:35 down the options is so difficult. I think that's where most people spend the most time. After that,

10:40 they can narrow it down fairly quickly. Got it. How would you start? Say I didn't

10:46 know where to go. How would you begin the process with me? I think I can give some usual answer

10:53 here about, "Oh, do you like warm weather or cold weather? Do you like beaches? Do you like,

10:56 I don't know, icebergs?" But I actually think the most important thing is looking inside and

11:03 thinking, "What kind of person am I?" Because when it comes to making decisions about travel,

11:09 as well as decisions for everything else, we need to make decisions for the person that we are,

11:15 not the person that we aspire to be. I cannot emphasize this enough. People are always like,

11:21 "Oh, but I could do this. I could try. I should." Those are red flag words to me.

11:25 When it comes to choosing a vacation spot, if you're the kind of person who does not like crowds

11:31 and waiting in line, you are not going to magically enjoy those things just because you're in Rome.

11:37 You think about the things you like to do in your everyday life and the things that make you really

11:43 uncomfortable. You could cross off a lot of places by just thinking about, "When I go somewhere,

11:50 I don't like to be in a super crowded place or a place where a lot of other people are going.

11:54 I like to spend time outside every day." Just start using those parameters of the things that

11:59 you actually like in your everyday life, and you can apply those to travel.

12:02 Bekkah: Wow. Do you find that people get hung up in that a lot? The things that they should do or

12:08 the person that they want to be or they see out in the world?

12:12 Bekkah: Yes. In all decision-making and definitely in travel. Because so many people,

12:18 the travel is finite, the trip is short, they think they should be like, "Go, go, go," pushing

12:22 themselves to do all these things. They might never go back. There are so many pressures.

12:27 There's this conflict between what they think they ought to do and what they actually want to do.

12:32 People really struggle with that. I was just talking to a friend of mine who said when she

12:37 goes to a new place, a new city, she likes to go to the Natural History Museum, if there is one,

12:43 and the secondhand stores. I was like, "That's what she does here. That's great."

12:48 Those are two things you can do in every city, the things that you know that you like,

12:54 but you're doing them in a new place. To me, that seemed like a perfect parameter to establish for

12:58 yourself. What do you like doing on a Saturday in your own town? Just go do that in Addis or wherever.

13:06 >> It's so funny that we don't just naturally do that because this is usually precious time off.

13:14 This is time that we are spending to go somewhere to theoretically enjoy ourselves and to relax and

13:21 to learn about the place, but then we add all the shoulds.

13:24 >> People are drowning in shoulds. I think it's fine to have some shoulds. There are some things

13:29 you don't want to miss, but I think people put way more of that stuff on their list than they

13:35 ought to. It really sucks some of the joy out of your trip and out of your vacation. Again,

13:41 you have to think about the sort of person you are. Are you the sort of person who gets up at

13:44 5.30 a.m. every day and has a to-do list and does all their chores and does all their hobbies and

13:50 does their work and then goes to bed at 7? Okay, you probably want to pack an itinerary full of

13:55 stuff. Good for you. Go for it. God bless. If you're somebody who gets up around 9 or 10 and

14:01 enjoys a leisurely coffee and moving around a little bit and not hurrying to get to a dinner

14:08 reservation, you can do that anywhere and still have a great time. >> Again, it comes back to

14:15 that permission slip. Do you actually legitimately write something? >> No, no, no. It's a metaphor.

14:20 Although I have been tempted, I have offered to do it for people like, "Do you want me to send

14:24 you an email right now saying, 'It's okay to turn down this job offer. It's okay to break up with

14:31 your boyfriend.'" >> Yeah, you could do a little search. >> I could put it up on Canva and send

14:37 it to people. That's actually not a bad idea. Maybe I should. >> Yeah, I don't know. Well,

14:41 you kind of addressed it a little bit, but there do seem to be kind of two categories of decision

14:46 making around travel. There's the first, the big one, like, "Where do I go? What do I do?"

14:50 And then there's the ones that you actually make in the day-to-day on your trip. And do you have

14:55 any advice for, or do you approach those differently? Do you have advice for people

14:59 in terms of looking at those? >> Well, you have a lot less time for the second than you do for

15:02 the first, which I think, of course, is a good thing. Like, you have to decide right now, are

15:07 you going to go to this museum or are you going to have coffee and cake in this cute little cafe?

15:11 I think most people are pretty good at making those decisions on the fly,

15:15 but I do have an idea for people who often feel caught between all the options when they are

15:21 somewhere. I would suggest that I'm a big fan of making decisions in advance, like deciding and

15:27 then not deciding. So before you go on the trip, I love the idea of coming up with just like a theme

15:33 for your trip. You know, people are big on like, "My theme or my word for 2024 or whatever." I don't

15:39 do so much of that, but I think that like, if you can think of your trip like as, "Okay, what do I

15:43 want to, how do I want to feel the end of the trip?" You know, is this trip about exploration?

15:48 Is it about discovery? Is it about relaxation? Is it about comfort? If you can pick that word or

15:54 that theme before you get on the plane or the train or the, you know, tram, then when you're

16:00 making, when you're faced with those decisions in the moment, you can just go back to that word,

16:04 like, "Which one of these fits in with my vacation theme?" You know, "Which one of these is more in

16:09 alignment with my vision for the vacation?" And then you can just make all the decisions according

16:13 to that rubric. >> Yeah, it seems like it would also cut down on, we didn't talk about it earlier,

16:18 but decision, and especially when you're in place and you're kind of maybe hit with a lot of new

16:25 sensory overload, do you think decision fatigue is like a real thing?

16:29 >> Oh my God, absolutely. I remember I was like, I was living in Vietnam for a while and

16:33 some friends had come to visit. They've been traveling all around Asia and they were hanging

16:37 out with me and my friends. And one of them said, "God, it's just so nice to have somebody else to

16:42 decide where we're going for dinner." It's just like, you know, the two of them had been backpacking

16:45 for months and months and every day it was like, "I don't know where are we going to have dinner?"

16:48 And like, "What do you think? And what about this?" And just being able to like,

16:51 like delegate some of those decisions. Yeah, the decision fatigue is absolutely real. So if you can

16:57 narrow down your options and just think, "Oh, this one is my theme. This one goes with my

17:02 theme of discovery. This one goes with my theme of comfort." Like, it's so much easier.

17:07 >> Yeah. And maybe giving ourselves permission to get things wrong. Sometimes I don't mean wrong,

17:15 and but like, you know, I think because of the way that travel is shared on social media and

17:21 online, like it's so easy to feel like everything should be the absolute perfect thing. And maybe

17:26 it's okay if you just decide to walk by a bistro that you've never heard of and walk in because it

17:31 smells good at the sign. >> Yeah. Yes. I mean, I really think that goes back to like, what kind

17:35 of a person are you? Because if you're somebody who is a planner and has everything like lined

17:39 up ahead of time, there's restaurant reservations for every night. Like I'm going on a trip with my

17:45 partner's family to Yellowstone in August. And his family has already made dinner reservations and

17:51 rafting reservations and hotel reservations for a trip that's not happening until August.

17:56 I'm like, "That is not how I do things." But like, great. If that gives them comfort, like,

18:00 I'm just going along. I'm a passenger. That's wonderful. But if you're the kind of person for

18:04 whom that is stressful and feels like obligation, and now I'm going to rush to make this reservation

18:08 when I'm having such a lovely time sipping this wine, looking at the river, like, it really needs

18:12 to go back to what kind of person you are. And of course, the biggest decision also is like,

18:16 who you're traveling with and are those people on the same wavelength or not. I think that's

18:21 very important. >> Yeah. Do you have any advice for choosing your travel leads? >> Oh, I think

18:28 that's a really hard one. I think it's, I think a lot of, I mean, if you're at the stage where

18:33 someone is like, "Let's go on a trip together," you probably know them reasonably well. And so

18:38 you should definitely like not respond at once. Be like, "Oh, right. Let me think about that." And

18:43 go home and think like, "Do I want to spend all this time with this person?" Like, "Are they going

18:47 to get up at 5.30 every morning when I want to sleep until 8? Are they going to make me like

18:51 traipse around this museum when I would prefer to be like going around the flea market?" But yeah,

18:56 I think maybe an easy way to do that would be like, "Sure. Like, let's think about Paris. Like,

19:00 why don't you give me an idea of what your perfect day would be like, and I'll tell you about mine

19:03 and see if they overlap even a little bit." And then I think it should be pretty clear to both of

19:09 you like, "We should travel together or not." >> Yeah. Or maybe we should just meet up in the

19:15 city and we'll have separate trips. >> That's actually a great idea. Like,

19:17 we're both going to go to Paris at the same time. We'll have like two dinners together. Yeah. I love

19:22 it. >> Yeah. Well, I feel like one of the things that happens that can be is when things go wrong

19:30 on a trip, it can be you run into, you know, and or, you know, your hotel reservation falls through,

19:37 then you have to make a decision on the fly. Do you have any tips for those uncomfortable moments?

19:42 >> I mean, I feel like in those situations, our options are sometimes all bad or like,

19:48 you know, there's not really that many choices. And so it doesn't really matter what you do.

19:53 And honestly, this is truer for more of our decisions in everyday life than we think. Like,

19:59 it really doesn't matter. But I think you can think in my decision making sessions,

20:05 I ask people to think a little bit about their values ahead of time, not like religious values

20:10 or moral values, just like the things that they make them happy in everyday life, whether that's

20:14 control over your own time and schedule or, you know, financial security or recognition for your

20:20 work or time to walk your dog every day or whatever. So I think if you have a little bit

20:24 of a sense of like what your what your values are, for the trip, like maybe saving money is like your

20:30 number one thing, you want to do everything on a budget. If you know that about yourself, like you

20:34 can make the decisions that are going to be the cheapest, even if they maybe take more time or

20:38 more effort or whatever. I think it would behoove everyone to think a little bit about those values,

20:42 their own values, just in general, but definitely before a trip.

20:46 >> Yeah, that do you have any examples of decisions that you've made while traveling

20:52 or to travel that you were happy with or maybe about moving to a new place? Like,

20:56 how do you how do you go about making that decision?

20:58 >> I will say that I have lived like I've lived in Saigon, I lived in Colombo and Sri Lanka,

21:04 I lived in Seoul, in Korea, and all three of those places, I was like, that seems nice.

21:11 All right, off I go. My last two moves to Uruguay and to Switzerland, where I live now,

21:17 have been because my partners work. And I can tell people what to do from anywhere. So

21:23 it's fine for me to be here. But I, you know, I those decisions were based on,

21:28 to be perfectly honest, like the food. Good food is one of my top values. So like those

21:38 places are all like, oh my god, this will be amazing. You know, affordability and weather.

21:44 Those are usually my top considerations for something like that.

21:47 >> I love it. And it sounds like you don't get too hung up on it being anything like you don't

21:55 seem to have a lot of expectations. Like you're like, okay, they seem to have some of the things

21:59 that I'm interested in. Let's give it a shot. And I mean,

22:03 >> I think that's something that is definitely true for me, maybe more,

22:06 more so in the past when I was younger, but I really do like, I just believe so strongly in

22:13 the fact that almost every decision is reversible. And if you move somewhere and you don't like it,

22:20 you can usually leave. Or, you know, if for financial reasons, you can't, okay, make a

22:25 point of like saving your escape money before you go. And then if you don't like it, just leave.

22:30 Like you can change your mind. People stay stuck in locations they don't like, in jobs they don't

22:36 like, in relationships they don't like, knowing that they should go but not managing to do it

22:42 for just so long. So I'm a big fan of the, you know, you don't have to call it quitting,

22:49 you can call it pivoting or as a friend of mine said, "quiveting" and just do something else.

22:54 >> I love it. I love that so much. Yeah, I don't know the stick with it-ness, you know,

23:02 that seems to be a cultural value, at least in the United States. And it's not, it doesn't behoove us.

23:08 >> It really doesn't. Like so many people should quit things way before they quit.

23:13 >> Yeah.

23:14 >> Big, big quitting fan over here, for sure.

23:16 >> Okay, I love it. Well, we do have two listener questions. So I'm going to read the first one.

23:23 This is from Christina. She says, "It's my mother's 70th birthday this year and she and my sister

23:28 want to take a big trip to Scandinavia. But my husband also wants us to take a three-week trip

23:33 to China that we've meant to take for years. If we do both, it'll be a big financial stretch for us,

23:38 but also life is short. What should I do?"

23:40 >> I mean, if you can do both trips without like inconveniencing yourself hugely financially,

23:46 like if you could make it work, life is short. You should do both of those trips. But if you

23:51 have to pick one, I would say that, you know, those zero birthdays, they only come around every

23:58 10 years. And if you enjoy spending time with your mother and your sister, like it would be,

24:03 it would be a gift to go on that trip, I think, and you could do China the next year.

24:07 But I really do think like if it's possible to pull both those things off and you're willing

24:11 to sacrifice, you know, eating out or whatever you spend money on in your everyday life, like

24:17 go for it. You'll have an amazing year. >> I love it. I love it. That's great. I mean,

24:21 it sounds like also, I'm just reading into this question, but it kind of seems like

24:26 she also knows what she wants to do and is looking for permission.

24:31 >> That is a surprising number of my clients. Like they might not know that they know what they want

24:37 to do, but they do know what they want to do. And like, that's my only job is to like,

24:41 yank it out of them. Yeah. >> Yes. Well, this one might be,

24:48 the second one might be a little trickier because this is from Inez and she is not with us. But in

24:52 the newsletter, we're asked for questions. I mentioned your tattoo example. And she says,

24:57 you mentioned tattoos and I've always wanted to get one while I'm traveling. I'm 39 and I don't

25:02 have any. She said, A, is this crazy at my age? And B, how do you figure out if a tattoo artist

25:08 is right for you, especially in a foreign country? And if I don't know what I want, where do I begin?

25:12 >> All right. Well, I don't know much about tattoos, but I do know that you are not too

25:16 old for a tattoo that virtually, I mean, no one is too old for anything ever, I guess. I feel

25:24 you should do what you want. Like there's literally no age-related downside to getting a tattoo

25:31 at 39. And in fact, I think about like the tattoos I wanted to get when I was 20 and like,

25:35 thank God I did not get those tattoos. Like getting tattoos as a young idiot is so dumb.

25:42 So I think, yes, like embrace yourself. It could be a 40th birthday present to yourself. That could

25:46 be super fun. But when it comes to picking a tattoo artist, I would just say like, if you've

25:50 picked your destination, you know, go on Instagram, find tattoo artists there, find one who's like,

25:56 put pictures that you're like, wow, these look really good. And you know, and you can go from

26:00 there. But social media is your friend. >> Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, Inez,

26:06 you have to let us know when you get a tattoo. >> Send us a picture. Yes. I know I want to see it.

26:10 >> Yes, I want to see the photo. One of my friends at eight, no, 19, he got a tattoo of the Superman

26:18 logo on his chest. We're not in touch now. And I've always wondered, like, did you get that removed?

26:23 Is that still there? Because that's a pretty specific. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So yes, I think

26:28 waiting to 39 or 40 is nice. No Superman logos or you then you really know that that's what you want.

26:35 >> Yeah, exactly. Like you're really committed to it. You know that you're always going to love

26:38 Superman. Yeah, no, I'm with you. I mean, one of my aunts just got her first tattoo at the age of

26:42 like, I think like 61. And then recently she got another one and they look great and she feels

26:48 great. And yeah, truly never too old. >> That's so cool. Well, I would love to hear a little bit

26:54 more about your podcast. Would you mind sharing a few details? >> I would love to talk about my

26:58 podcast. I made this in partnership with Audible. And it took basically like a whole year to make,

27:04 which I did not expect. Podcasting is complicated. Huge amount of work. But it's called the decision

27:12 coach and it's available on Audible, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get podcasts.

27:19 And it's basically just like a condensed version of my sessions. You know, there's six episodes.

27:25 In each episode, I coach a person who's trying to make a big decision. We have somebody deciding

27:29 whether or not to drop out of college, somebody deciding whether or not to move from Australia to

27:35 LA to pursue his dream of becoming an actor. A woman deciding whether or not to leave a sexless

27:42 marriage. And in each one of these episodes, I coach them to making this big decision. And there's

27:48 like there's tons of actionable tips for decision making in your own life along the way. And, you

27:53 know, I think they're pretty useful and also fun to listen to. >> Yeah, for sure. We'll link to

28:00 that in the show notes as well. And you have a letter. Is that something is that a good place for

28:04 >> Absolutely. You can find me at decisioncoach.com and you can sign up for my newsletter then comes

28:11 out every couple of weeks. It's like decision making tips and suggestions and examples and

28:16 yeah, things like that. >> Awesome. Well, now thank you so much for being here. This has been

28:22 >> Thank you so much for having me and a real pleasure to see you. Yeah. >> Okay, that was our

28:27 show. Don't forget to hit like and subscribe on your way out. And I'll include a link to the podcast

28:32 below.

28:39 [BLANK_AUDIO]

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