Outlook's Editor Chinki Sinha and Special Correspondent Naseer Ganai speak with former Chief Minister of J&K and Democratic Progressive Azad Party Chairman Ghulam Nabi Azad. He discusses the development in the state during Prime Minister Modi's government, unemployment among the youth, and the lost cause of the abrogation of Article 370. He also expresses his feelings about his former political association Congress and the idea of secularism in the political landscape today.
Videographer: Romana Manpreet
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Videographer: Romana Manpreet
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NewsTranscript
00:00 Hello, I am Nasir Ghanai, correspondent with Outlook magazine. We are with us Ghulam Nabi
00:11 Azad, chairman of Democratic Progressive Azad Party. He has been in politics for the past
00:15 40 years, has a long career in politics. He has been cabinet minister and he was also
00:20 chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir. We will begin our question with development. What
00:23 development mean to you?
00:26 Now, let us find myself to Jammu and Kashmir. In Jammu and Kashmir, most of the political
00:34 parties are thriving on totally dry politics, only slogan politics. Slogans means negative,
00:41 positive, in between, means politics. And get the votes, get elected, spend five years
00:50 and choose another narrative. So far, each election, the political parties here, they
00:57 have been choosing narratives and thriving on narratives. But nothing comes out of the
01:04 narratives. Narratives is just only for one, the life of a narrative is one, one month.
01:10 Once the elections is over, the narrative is over. What actually the country and the
01:17 state wants is the development, progress, prosperity. And that can come, the progress
01:25 and prosperity can come only by development. And a state like Jammu and Kashmir, the development
01:33 is most important. There are some other parts of the country like you have Punjab, you have
01:39 UP, you have Bihar, you have Delhi. Because people coming from north to south, south to
01:47 north, east to west are passing through those states. There is a stopover for night, for
01:55 two days, three days. Somebody wants to go to Calcutta, would like to stop in between.
02:02 If she or he or the family is going by road. So you need hotels, you need restaurants,
02:08 you need other things. But Kashmir is totally different, the people will have to come only
02:13 for Kashmir. Nobody will come to invest here because on one side you have Pakistan, on
02:18 the other side you have China. And then the third route leads to our country. So the people
02:27 have to come specially here, either to invest or to as a part of tourism, that's why. And
02:37 the tourists will come only to invest and see around and go. You will not make any investment.
02:42 And even the tourist makes investment, how many people are benefited? Only city people,
02:49 half the assembly constituency, where the hotels are located and the restaurants are
02:55 located and where the taxis mostly belong to the hotel wala, they get the benefit. But
03:03 99% people of the state don't get any benefit. 90% or 95% states don't have the districts
03:12 or the blocks of the state, don't have the infrastructure for the tourists. The infrastructure
03:21 is 99.9% located in Srinagar. Then you go to Pahlegam and Gulbarg hotels, they belong
03:29 to the, they are the branches of the same hotels, who have the hotels in Srinagar.
03:37 So you are saying that they have a sort of a narrative, but this is not the narrative.
03:42 This is not the narrative. The narrative is overall development. There should be roads
03:47 across the state. There should be education and educational infrastructure across the
03:54 state. There should be infrastructure of school education across the state. Which is why I
04:01 say that whatever number of roads were constructed in 75 years, I have constructed almost double
04:07 the roads in my two and a half years. Whatever number of the schools were sanctioned or reconstructed
04:15 or rebuilt in 75 years, I have done double in two and a half years. Whatever hospitals
04:25 right from primary health center to super speciality, whatever number I have made in
04:30 two and a half years has not been made in 75 years.
04:33 So how do you look at the BJP's kind of a narrative that after abrogation of Article
04:37 370 there is a new dawn in Kashmir, there has been development all over, everything
04:41 has been well. How do you look at this narrative? They have also this development narrative.
04:47 Because they also sell the same thing which is being sold here. Two, three things have
04:54 happened positively in BJP time, in Prime Minister's time, I won't say BJP time,
04:59 in the government time. We may talk of Prime Minister, we may talk of the government. That
05:07 militancy has drastically come down. It is almost finished. Number two, the hartals,
05:17 there are no more hartals. That is very positive. Number three, the work culture has improved.
05:26 These are three important. But the most important thing for the people, the most of the people
05:34 I said, it is not only a few businessmen making few malls here and there in the city. They
05:41 are everywhere. They are in Mumbai, they are in Calcutta, in big cities you will find some
05:47 1% big people. But they don't make any difference in the overall economy of the state.
05:57 Now being a poor state, I think every family has three to four young boys or girls or boys
06:08 or girls together who are graduate, post graduate and PG's. But none of them is employed. When
06:16 I say employment, it does not mean government employment. The private employment and the
06:20 government employment. So what will they eat? If you see the number of the girls going up
06:29 the age of 35 are not getting married because the boy wants a serving woman. The boys are
06:38 not getting married. The girl wants at least if I am not working, my husband should be
06:43 working otherwise what will we eat? So if the both girls and boys are unemployed, they
06:51 will not, they will go without marriage. So that is the social, that is the social problem,
06:57 a great social problem. And why it is only in Kashmir? Why it is not in other parts of
07:02 the country? Because in other parts of the country, if you don't get government job,
07:07 at least you will get some private engagement.
07:09 But specifically, do you buy this narrative of the BJP that there is a lot of development
07:15 and we have to...
07:16 No, I mean they will also get impressed by some buildings are coming up. Some buildings
07:21 don't impress me because I go to rural areas, I go to poor areas, they have become much
07:26 poorer. When that poor become little better, then I will say they are poorer. One person,
07:35 now the tourist is coming. Now earlier one hotel would you get back after whatever investment
07:43 in 20 years. Now you will get after 3 years. But that is one hotel. You will make another
07:48 hotel in Delhi, you will make another hotel to Dubai. And 5 years later you will go to
07:53 Dubai.
07:54 So your party is also contesting these elections, so are the other regional political parties.
07:59 Their main argument is that yes there has been, say you are saying there are no hathas,
08:03 there are no...but they say there is a cost of it. There is a huge silence in Kashmir,
08:06 nobody is talking. So do you think there is a silence in Kashmir?
08:09 No, I was expecting a huge change in the voting. And most of the local people say we are very
08:16 happy that vote has increased to 35%. What is this 35? I was expecting 90%. I was expecting
08:24 95%. I was expecting the election commission will reject, they have gone more than 95%.
08:32 So people were telling me the same story. No we are lulled, we are scared of army, police.
08:39 But then at the polling station there was no army and police to stop you from voting.
08:43 What is the reason?
08:44 I don't know. I think they have given up, they have no faith in politicians. They have
08:49 no faith in politicians. Any political party which has some of their own, you know the
08:55 old workers, they take them only, the general public don't go for voting.
09:01 Your political party is also contesting these elections. I have been listening to your speeches
09:05 also. You are also talking about article 370, you are also talking about the statehood.
09:10 You are in fact telling them that I was the person who was the most vocal about it.
09:13 I am only saying, I am in a totally different context. I am saying that people who are again
09:21 cheating the public, under the pretext of that we will win 370. When 370 was abrogating
09:31 the parliament, they had their representatives, they didn't speak. So when they did not speak,
09:36 what change will happen? So it is in that reference. So they said 370, statehood. I
09:44 said yes, statehood was also finished. They didn't speak. What is their role in statehood?
09:50 Statehood is only government of India and that primary has already agreed to give the
09:56 statehood.
09:57 So what is your view on the restoration of article 370 or statehood?
10:00 I had said publicly, the statehood can be, article 370 can be retrieved by only two places,
10:12 either by Narendra Modi or by Supreme Court. I had said that Narendra Modi will not do
10:19 it, Supreme Court. Supreme Court didn't do it. So now to cry is only to fooling the people.
10:29 Many people get fooled. How can I help?
10:32 Do you think it is a gone case, the article 370?
10:35 As of now.
10:39 So what has remained then? Statehood only.
10:43 Statehood also, I do mention the statehood is also two types of statehood. The government
10:50 of India has not made it clear what type of statehood. One is Delhi-Pondicherry statehood
10:56 and one is Punjab statehood, UP statehood.
11:01 So what are you seeking? What kind of statehood you are seeking?
11:03 Statehood should be of course. It has to be total full-fledged statehood.
11:10 So why you are criticizing these political parties like National Conference or PDP when
11:15 they talk about the restoration of article 370?
11:17 When the time was there, at that time they didn't speak. What can they do? National
11:27 Conference, what is their maximum number? They can get three. Three they had already
11:34 when article 370 was abrogated. They are not getting 273 to form the government. Total
11:43 number of seats is?
11:44 545.
11:45 545. And forget that, there are allies, none of them is supporting 370. Congress has never
11:54 supported. It was I who as leader opposition, I didn't ask my leadership. Congress has
12:02 not even said even once till today that we are in favor of article 370.
12:07 You were hurt when the article 370 was abrogated?
12:10 Yes. I was there in the parliament.
12:13 You were hurt?
12:15 Oh yes, obvious I was hurt. It was totally unexpected. And I said then and I said today,
12:23 it was for the good of the state. And most of the people in Jammu are Hindu brothers,
12:30 they thought it was again, it was meant only for Kashmir. Now they realize it was equally
12:36 important and applicable to Jammu. Because the sand of Jammu, the sand of Kashmir river
12:47 is going to UP and Bihar and all this place. Then in article 370 they could not come here.
12:54 You have been in Congress for long, I think more than 40 years.
12:57 I have been in Congress all through, right from my childhood.
13:02 Is it Congress which betrayed you or you betrayed the Congress?
13:05 I think they betrayed the nation and they are still betraying the nation.
13:11 How?
13:12 By not doing anything. The BGP is there because of them.
13:16 So you don't find any chance in Congress?
13:21 No, Congress is the best campaign committee for the BGP. I don't find today any difference
13:31 between BGP and Congress. No difference. Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi was against casteism.
13:41 The present leadership is in favor of casteism. Do it backward. Backward, forward, you should
13:54 divide this who is more populated, who is less populated. Are we going to do the jobs
14:00 and services and business on the basis of numbers? So what is the difference between
14:09 BGP?
14:10 So you are often being accused of being a sort of a bi-regional political party and
14:16 others being an ally or sympathetic to the BGP. How do you take this kind of accusations?
14:23 I think the other parties also as long as they ally with the Congress, they will also
14:28 get finished. Because their own narratives were very good and that narrative was getting
14:36 them elected.
14:38 So you don't find anything wrong in this accusation that you are sort of an ally of
14:43 the BGP?
14:44 I am not an ally. I am with nobody. I have said publicly. In all the three places BGP
14:52 has candidate, I have candidate.
14:55 Why you withdrew your seat?
14:58 I never filed the nomination.
15:00 You never filed it but you said you will fight, you are a fighter, you will fight.
15:03 Because then who will campaign?
15:07 I just had this one question about your ideology. Because you know this election is more about
15:12 ideological war between one set, the other set. You said secularism. I mean I was talking
15:17 to one of your spokesperson.
15:18 Is the ideology same of all parties?
15:22 No, not really. Even the definition of secularism changes. So I just wanted to know how does
15:30 that fit in the Kashmir context, this secularism question.
15:35 I don't think that. It is the same secularism which we were talking during Nehru's time
15:43 and Raghavindra Gandhi's time.
15:45 And what was that secularism?
15:46 Today it is a pseudo secularism. That time…
15:52 Was it the French model that time or the other one?
15:55 Totally.
15:56 Totally, yeah.
15:57 Right, I have said in my book. The real secularism was pre-independence. It is in my autobiography.
16:08 For 16 years, for 65 years, Congress fought British Empire from 1885 to 47. Congress had
16:30 12 minority Congress Presidents. 12. I think 6 or 7 Muslims and 5 or 6 were Parsis, Christians.
16:46 Now 75 Congress has not even a single minority Congress President. So that time Congress
16:55 President was the only thing. Congress had no Prime Minister, no Rashpati, no Vice, Uparashpati,
17:03 no Minister. So only High Command. But they could afford to give that High Command position
17:10 to 12 of them. Now the Congress President is a very ordinary post. You have Prime Minister,
17:18 you have President, you have…
17:20 Many things.
17:21 You have Prime Minister, you have Prime Minister, you have Chief Minister, you have Union Minister,
17:25 few hundred of them if not thousand. And you cannot afford to give a Presidentship to a
17:31 Muslim or minority or Christian. So what type of secularism it is?
17:37 I don't know. You were with the Congress. You should tell us.
17:39 No, this book I had written when I was in Congress. This book I have written when I
17:45 was in Congress. The same thing you may take any political party, any regional party, I
17:54 will not like them. Father, son, father, son, brother. No, not from another from their own
18:03 party and forget the Muslim. But they are also Muslim champions.
18:08 Yeah, they talk about…
18:09 They are big Muslim champions. And they are the thriving 90% on Muslims only. You take
18:15 UP, Bihar, Bengal.
18:16 So what has changed? What has happened in the…
18:20 So what type of secularism it is?
18:22 Exactly. So when you talk about…
18:24 So where is the secularism?
18:25 Exactly.
18:26 It is only just to talk and fool and people are getting fooled.
18:30 Yeah. But when you talk about secularism, what does it mean now in the context of Kashmir?
18:35 Secularism, no, it is not only Kashmir. In Kashmir it is immaterial because it is a Muslim
18:40 majority state. So you don't feel that type of problem which the country has been facing,
18:48 which I have been there and hearing them and been with them for more than 45 years. Even
18:55 today, you see the statement of BJP, I don't blame BJP.
19:01 Why?
19:02 Because their agenda is that.
19:04 Yeah, they are sticking probably truth with their…
19:07 Their agenda is that. But whose agenda is secularism, they don't believe in secularism.
19:12 Now BJP is saying, hum power mein aayenge, toh hum OBC ka ST increase karenge. The Congress
19:22 is saying and all allies saying, we will also increase. What about the Muslims?
19:26 Exactly.
19:27 They are not even talking of giving even 2%. There you are talking of increasing. Here
19:34 you are not even touching.
19:36 Yeah, so what is the…
19:38 So they are not secular.
19:40 Yeah, you could…
19:41 They are as communal as BJP. Then why are you talking BJP communal? So you are also
19:47 communal. You are also using them. You want 100% votes and don't want to give anything.
19:58 And you know when you became the Chief Minister long ago, like 2005 to 2008, in your speech
20:04 that time you talked about this healing touch which PDP, Waheed Par also talked about.
20:08 I said my one first speech and that too in Sopur.
20:14 Yeah.
20:15 And that was the first Chief Minister to speak in Sopur. Maybe in 75 years or ever since
20:27 the Jamaat-e-Islami had come into being.
20:30 And why did you choose that place?
20:32 I wanted to convey the message.
20:34 Yes, what was the message?
20:36 And Gilani was alive then. It is not that he was dead. He was a MLA four times from
20:43 that constituency. I said in Urdu of course, I said here is the place I want to announce.
20:53 I don't want any cabinet minister be Muslim or Hindu who works on the basis of region
21:03 and religion or caste or on particular party. I don't want any officer or any minister
21:13 in my cabinet. If there is somebody, they should leave today. The Chief Minister is
21:24 the Chief Minister for everybody. Every religion, every caste, every region, every political party.
21:32 And that is the first time I think I have mentioned the name of RSS in Sopur. I said
21:44 the Congress, I was in Congress, NC, PDP, BJP, Jamaat-e-Islami, Huriyat. I said Huriyat.
21:57 Even RSS, they need food, shelter, clothing. They need school, education, health.
22:06 That should be provided to them. Politically we will fight. But as a government,
22:12 You will provide all of that.
22:14 They have to provide us.
22:15 And the healing touch thing, what is this? Why does Kashmir need so much healing?
22:19 No, because of militancy. That was spoken by everybody that time, even Murthy Shah.
22:24 Only militancy or otherwise also?
22:26 No, no, no. Healing touch was a particular because of so many boys were killed and all that.
22:35 The state was bleeding. Thank God that has stopped.
22:41 The trauma that continues from then, you know, people carry that baggage of sadness or grief,
22:46 whatever, they are not talking about it. But probably somebody who has lost their son,
22:49 I mean, maybe it is not happening now, but how do you…
22:53 No, I think that also stopped. I mean, what was happening before me,
22:58 even Farooq Sahib's government and Mufti Sahib's government, more so during Farooq Sahib's government,
23:03 there was lot of allegation and not only allegation, that was true.
23:08 That lot of people were taken to police custody, army custody and killed and thrown their bodies.
23:20 So, I had said, I had called the Chief Minister.
23:25 Chief Minister is supposed to be the chairman of unified command,
23:30 that is army paramilitary forces and police, IB and all that.
23:35 So, I called, told them that you can kill the militants, you will get all my support.
23:42 Yeah.
23:43 You have come from outside to kill the people. But if any innocent person is killed,
23:51 I am not going to leave any of you.
23:57 And within few months after my taking over, I think three or four months after my taking over,
24:06 I received a complaint from Lal Chouk that three hawkers are missing for the last 15 days.
24:20 So, somehow it clicked for me.
24:25 So, then I got the report because I was getting daily reports of IB also and CID also.
24:36 Today people were killed. So, I had taken the date of…
24:41 The missing.
24:42 Yeah, since they were just missing.
24:47 And it coincided with that date one SSP and with some officers giving a press conference, local SSP, state.
24:58 And that three militants, Pakistan trained militants have been killed in the encounter.
25:06 Then I checked up those officers who have promoted and they had taken also the money in arm.
25:15 The only thing I didn't hand over this to police.
25:20 I dealt with it myself as Home Minister because I was holding home.
25:26 Because I knew that they will always cooperate, they will save to each other.
25:30 But how did you deal with it? What did you do?
25:32 So, I dealt it through officers only but today.
25:35 So, I put IG that I want to know in one year how many killings have been taken place.
25:43 And you identify them.
25:48 Then I called another regional commissioner, I told him, you go and identify and see where are more than two people.
25:57 Yeah.
25:58 I called third officer.
26:01 You identify these places, write the names.
26:06 He said, why?
26:07 I said, because in Islam, whether it's a militant or anybody, as long as he is alive, when he is dead, he is dead.
26:17 Then we have to give the last respect.
26:20 I don't want that you have to just take a little bit here and there and dog will eat him in the street.
26:29 That's not good.
26:31 That's how I told him.
26:33 So, when I zeroed on, these are the three.
26:40 The three hawkers that were.
26:42 No, no, the three, these graveyards, three graveyards with the same names.
26:47 So, I sent for the parents and brothers of those three.
26:53 Okay.
26:54 On previous night.
26:55 Okay.
26:56 So, I told him, can you recognize them? Luckily it was winter.
26:59 He said, yes.
27:01 So, I made the arrangement through my personal friends to them.
27:07 So, in the morning, I called IG and four or five officers.
27:12 And you dug the graves?
27:13 Huh?
27:14 You dug the graves?
27:15 We dug the graves and telephoned from me there.
27:18 By that time, I had collected the name of officers who were, there were 13 of them.
27:24 Yeah, but wasn't there any opposition of you digging the graves?
27:27 No, no, no.
27:28 There was so furious, people wanted to know.
27:31 Yeah, because people would be like, how do you disrespect to the dead?
27:33 And when they recognized, so I issued the order and found, arrest all 13.
27:37 Oh.
27:38 So, they are still in jail, 17 years.
27:40 Oh, yeah.
27:42 And you know.
27:43 And after that, nobody dared.
27:46 To kind of, but incidents did happen.
27:49 I mean, there's also this whole thing of betrayal.
27:52 You said, Kashmir politics is very treacherous.
27:55 You know, because now there's this 370 Masala and this silence is there, which Nasir also
28:00 talked about, and which is what we are going to talk about in our issue.
28:03 You know, for the last few years, we have seen this strange kind of silence, eerie,
28:08 nobody says anything.
28:09 Now, political parties are talking about this silence, but we have been hearing silence
28:13 in Delhi from Kashmir, you know, that's the only thing we heard.
28:15 That is true.
28:16 How do you address that?
28:17 I think the silence is not good, but I have been checking up with the people in rural
28:28 areas particularly.
28:30 They said they are fed up with the political parties also.
28:34 They don't do anything.
28:36 They said, you didn't promise us anything, but you did so many things.
28:42 The people, other people have been promising us, but we don't see them.
28:47 No, but the silence, what does it mean in terms of mental health, firstly, in terms
28:53 of rights, in terms of, you know, your dignity?
28:57 The silence is because of…
28:59 Have you experienced it, your way of…
29:02 There are so many contributory factors.
29:04 Yeah.
29:05 One contributory factor is that people are corrupt.
29:08 Leaders are corrupt.
29:10 Leaders are inefficient.
29:12 They make their own houses.
29:14 They are interested in their own families.
29:17 They are not interested in the development, growth, and they make false promises.
29:24 There's all these things.
29:26 How long can the people stay fed up because, you know, it's also…
29:29 They have been voting.
29:30 They have been voting.
29:31 But you also said that voter turnout has been, I mean, 80 to 90 percent is a bit…
29:37 Yeah, but that is the real democracy.
29:41 What is democracy now?
29:43 I mean, you have said that India has a democratic setup and Pakistan doesn't.
29:47 But what is real, is for the people, by the people, or of the people?
29:50 In real democracy, the voting should go above 80 percent.
29:53 Exactly, but then how does then your statement that India…
29:56 And that means the people are happy and they are going to…
29:59 Or maybe they are unhappy and want to change the government.
30:01 Yeah, they may be unhappy.
30:02 Either way.
30:03 They are maybe unhappy.
30:04 If they are unhappy, they don't go for voting.
30:07 So, you think this is their democratic setup?
30:09 They are disillusioned.
30:10 Here, yes, but…
30:11 Here, they are disillusioned.
30:13 The rest part of the country differs from 70 to 80 percent.
30:16 No, but the voter turnout has gone low there also.
30:19 There has been a decrease across the country.
30:23 The last one is, you talked about, you know, which we asked also, development.
30:26 Now, there's a lot of development.
30:28 People talk about development.
30:29 So, they make roads, do this, do that.
30:31 But there's also climate change, there's also all kinds of things, you know, Ladakh is facing all these issues with development.
30:36 Well, climate change is in a big way, I think.
30:38 It's a big way, a big issue.
30:39 And now, if I see Kashmir, smart city, but it's half-dug up, this and that.
30:44 I don't know what is the development that you think will promise.
30:46 I don't know development.
30:47 I mean, I am seeing two bridges from Annanag to this place.
30:52 The railway bridges going on for the 10 years.
30:55 That's not development.
30:56 My development was one and a half year is the closing period.
31:00 No, but closing like it means you build a lot of bridges, you know, Kashmir had floodings in 2014 and there are flood…
31:06 I mean, there are all kinds of issues also with development.
31:08 So, what kind of development would you…
31:11 Development is to start a bridge and complete after 20 years is not development.
31:15 Yeah, that is true.
31:16 But the bridge may also have other repercussions in certain ways, you know.
31:19 Development is, if you start a bridge, it should be one and a half year.
31:23 If it's building, it should be six months.
31:25 It should be eight months.
31:26 And not collapse in between.
31:27 Not collapse. I have made whatever I have made in eight months, seven months, three months.
31:32 Three months also.
31:33 Yeah.
31:34 Nothing has collapsed in 17 years.
31:35 You also built a garden.
31:37 Means that also I had made one and a half year.
31:40 The Mughals, it would take 10 years. I made it one and a half year.
31:43 Do you think Kashmir is still paradise or…
31:45 No, Kashmir is paradise.
31:47 Or a silent paradise.
31:48 No, but the climate has affected greatly now.
31:51 Exactly.
31:52 No, but otherwise also the aesthetics of it, the way it looks, the way people are.
31:56 But that's the nature it has run. The governments have no movement.
31:59 But then you…
32:00 Neither Congress can claim nor BJP.
32:02 You will do development and all and then you talked about the 370 also when you were talking to Nasir.
32:07 There's also this whole thing about culture.
32:09 You know, the…
32:10 The culture has also…
32:11 Identity. Identity is a huge…
32:12 No, the culture has changed.
32:14 Are you happy or…
32:15 Not a good culture.
32:17 Yeah. But…
32:19 But that's all over the world.
32:21 Yeah, but that's like, you know, accepting it. But like, what about protecting it?
32:24 Like, 370 protected, in a way, your identity.
32:27 Whether 370 is there or… I mean, now it's not there.
32:31 And you say that, okay, that's a lost fight.
32:34 Now, Supreme Court and the Modi government did not do it.
32:37 So now, let's move on to other things.
32:39 If you move on to other things, then how does this…
32:42 Because 370 has become an issue across India now.
32:44 Everybody is talking about Article 3, whether they even know about it or not.
32:48 So how do you reconcile with that?
32:53 I didn't… I don't know it has affected the health of the BJP in any way.
32:58 I don't have… I don't think they have got one single vote extra in the country because of the abrogation of Article 370.
33:06 Yeah.
33:07 Nobody is bothered whether Article 370 is there or not.
33:12 They don't bother, but you don't bother…
33:14 That's what I said, where it had an effect, it was a loss.
33:19 But for whomsoever they did it, there was no benefit of even one vote.
33:22 Bye, Donny.
33:23 (banging)
33:25 [BLANK_AUDIO]