Lt Gen Shokin Chauhan (retd.), former Indian Defence Attache at the Indian Embassy in Kathmandu, speaks with Col Anil Bhat (retd.) on India-Nepal relations based on his recent book | SAM Conversation
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00:00Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor.
00:15Today we are going to discuss India-Nepal relations and for that we have Lt. Gen Shokin
00:26Chauhan, former Director General of SAM Rifles, one of the largest paramilitary forces in
00:35the world and a former Defence Attaché to Nepal.
00:42Gen Chauhan is a Gurkhas officer who has had very heavy experience, operational experience
00:57both in the Western and Eastern sectors, in particular in China and in the East and has
01:10also had very wide exposure to the media, being an officer who is posted to the media relations
01:28branch of the Indian Army Headquarters. You know when you talk about, there are so many
01:35similarities between Nepal and us. Having served in the Indian Army and having served
01:51with the Gurkhas, at times you forget that a number of them are from Nepal and that's
02:01a very, very special relationship we've had. There are other aspects of the India-Nepal
02:10relationship, you can say the civilian, political-civilian aspects which are different, although there
02:21are times when one affects the other. To begin with, I'll request Gen Chauhan to briefly
02:34give us an idea of what it was like being the Defence Attaché at Nepal and around which
02:47time it was, if you could please mention that. Gen Chauhan.
02:54Thank you Colonel Bhatt for inviting me on your show. I've been a frequent invitee, talking
03:04on both the North-East as well as on Nepal, as well as Kashmir, on various forums and
03:11especially your show and it's always such a pleasure to be on this. Thank you so much.
03:20Nepal is a small little country on the Indo-Gangetic plate. It is probably as a country located
03:33in such an important strategic location of ours. And since I am from the Kolkata, Nepal
03:43was a very important country when I was growing up, my father was from Kolkata and in fact
03:50Nepali was one of the first languages I learned when I was a very young child. I had the occasion
03:56to visit Nepal many times as a young officer. And subsequently, it was a great honour that
04:04I was selected and nominated to be India's Defence Attaché in Kathmandu, Nepal from
04:112004 to 2007. In between the Maoist insurgency that came to power, King Janendra took over,
04:32the reins of the government. But unfortunately, this only incensed the people of Nepal, who
04:39started... Shokin, if you could be a little louder please. Can you hear me? Yeah, now
04:49better. Better now. So, it was actually during this time that King Janendra took over the
04:57reins of the government. And when he took over the government, this further incensed
05:03the people of Nepal. And as a result, it started what was known as Janandolan II. And I was
05:13privileged to witness this huge political change that was happening in Nepal from 2004,
05:19in the middle of 2004 when I landed up, to the end of 2007 when I signed in as a country.
05:27So, it was a very important moment in history for Nepal. I was privileged to witness it.
05:34And therefore, I decided to write this book, not on what I saw, but on everything in Nepal
05:41and what is most important to us about Nepal. As Indians, I thought that we must... There is very
05:49little knowledge that people have of Nepal. And I thought I must write this book, so as to educate
05:58my fellow countrymen, as well as my, you know, members of the armed forces about the importance of Nepal.
06:06That s the book. Bridging Borders. Yeah, please. It gives me great pride to see it in your hands, sir.
06:22And indeed, I am privileged to be interviewed by you talking about Nepal. Thank you so much, sir.
06:29It will be my pleasure to read it and to review it also.
06:39Janit Chauhan and I, apart from being from the same school, St. Columbus, Delhi,
06:46we met in very unusual circumstances. When I was posted in Iqbal as the Defence Ministry s
06:56Public Relations Officer, and Shokin s Battalion was there, 11 Gurkhas.
07:06And it s when he stopped my vehicle to take a lift. And that s when he saw that I m wearing
07:19I was in civilian clothes and I was wearing the school belt.
07:25That s how he caught me. And it s been a wonderful association since.
07:35You yourself mentioned that you were there in Nepal at a very eventful period.
07:46The first thing that comes to me is two major aspects. Do you see any Chinese factor affecting
08:03India-Nepal relations in the recent past? You can say since 2020 or so.
08:10Janit Chauhan, you were posted there in Kathmandu at what was a very eventful time.
08:21What was the status of India-Nepal relations at that time?
08:31The status of India-Nepal relations at that time?
08:37Well, when I was in Kathmandu, sir, we were very close to the Indian government. I remember
08:47meeting the Prime Minister of Nepal, Giridhar Prasad Koirala, once he had taken over from the
08:542006 Janandolan. They were very close, sir. They were helping them out. We were giving them a lot
09:03of support. And we were very happy with the way things had turned out for us. But unfortunately,
09:13over the last 10-15 years, we ve gone through many changes in our relationship. And that s mainly
09:22because once the communists came to power, Chanda and Kohli, they decided that
09:34their main support would come from China and not India. Politically, they changed that.
09:42And though they continuously kept on saying that India is important, but politically,
09:47they changed that and started going to China. And I remember when the Janandolan was going on,
09:54and when the Maoists, as they used to call themselves, the PLA of the Maoists,
10:01the Chinese government could not refer to them as PLA for the communists. They would call them
10:06anti-government forces. So the Chinese at no point supported the PLA or the Chanda during
10:15the Janandolan period, during the Maoist insurgency. But post the insurgency,
10:21the Chinese very quickly changed tack and started supporting Chanda. Then, as the party split,
10:31started supporting Kohli and all the other communist parties that exist today.
10:38So that s the change that has taken place politically, sir. China has always been a part
10:45of Nepal s political ecosystem. The reason is that if you look at the location of Nepal,
10:52you see towards the north is Tibet, and towards the south is India. And as their founding father,
11:04Prithvi Narayan Shah, used to say, Nepal is a yam between two boulders,
11:12the kingdom of the north, as China had under its vanity Tibet, and the kingdom of the south,
11:20that is the colonial power, Britain, and now later India. So it s always been a
11:26struggle between these two powers. Losing your audio a bit, please.
11:43So it s always been a struggle in Nepal about the political ecosystem. As I said,
11:53the important thing was that in Nepal s foreign ministry, if you go to their foreign ministry,
12:01you will see a huge quote by Prithvi Narayan Shah, the founding father of the Nepalese kingdom,
12:11in which he says that Nepal is a yam between two boulders.
12:17And the two boulders are kingdom of the north, that is China, and Tibet,
12:25and the kingdom in the south, that is India. And over the last couple of centuries,
12:32Nepal has always balanced this relationship with the north and the south.
12:37Post the Treaty of Kapitali, when they found that the British colonial power was more powerful,
12:47they junked the Chinese connection, and they came closer to the British connection.
12:53And as a result, were not colonized by the British, but remained as an independent kingdom,
13:01with a British resident in Kathmandu. Subsequently, when we got independence,
13:09and India lost in 1952 war, Nepal realized that India could no longer look after the
13:17security interests, and therefore started slowly distancing herself from India. And as a result,
13:25in 1967, Nepal had distanced itself and asked the Indian military training team that was in Nepal to
13:33help the Nepalese army, the Royal Nepalese Army, reorganize. So, when that happened,
13:42one could realize that here was a change that was coming about, because they were realizing that
13:48India could not look after the security interests, therefore they started going towards China.
13:53But China was not what China is today. China did not have the confidence of taking over,
14:00taking any kind of cudgels against the world powers.
14:04So, China too bided her time till 2012. Once President Xi took over, and he decided that
14:13China must now peck some muscles, that's the time when he started becoming more and more aggressive
14:19in his own policy towards Nepal, and towards the countries on India's territory.
14:26And as a result, today, the communist governments, successive communist governments
14:33in Nepal have continued to play this game of India against China, but more or less
14:40leaned more towards China's influence.
14:51Tell me, has one heard reports about the Agnivir scheme
15:02having an effect on the relationship? Would you like to elaborate on that?
15:12Definitely, sir. Actually, one of the mainstay of the relationship between India and Nepal
15:23was the presence of Nepalese-origin soldiers in the Indian army in eight
15:36burkha regiments. That is the first, the third, the fourth, fifth, and then the eighth, ninth, and eleventh.
15:48So, we were eight regiments and Britain had taken four in between the second, sixth,
15:55seventh, and tenth went to Britain. And we have about at any time, almost 39,000 soldiers
16:04serving in the Indian army. And this was the cornerstone of our relationship.
16:12Let me just try and put it in perspective. Today in Nepal, all over Nepal, from east to west,
16:21we have something like 128,000 Nepalese-origin Indian soldiers who served in the Indian army,
16:31who dropped pension funds. And as a result of this pension, there is almost a direct infusion
16:38of something like 8,000 or so. That is a huge factor in the Nepalese economy,
16:48the direct infusion, that money goes to these people. But who are our soldiers?
16:54Our soldiers, because they get a fair amount of money as compared to the standard of living in
17:00Nepal, are in their villages, opinion shapers, the richest in their roots, the best of.
17:11And because they are opinion shapers, best educated, their children are well educated,
17:16because they were, they were educated in schools in India,
17:20they are politically very savvy and well organized.
17:24So, India's greatest advantage was these soldiers from Nepal. And this relationship continued
17:33till we continued to recruit from Nepal. And we used to recruit almost a thousand soldiers a year,
17:41with Britain recruiting about a hundred soldiers, which included almost 20 soldiers,
17:47almost 20 soldiers with Britain recruited for the Singapore police every year.
17:53So, this relationship had political strength, it had a military relationship,
18:01it had a economic relationship. And in many ways was a cornerstone of our relationship.
18:09Besides, of course, the fact that we have close cultural ties with them,
18:13they are our neighbors, all Nepal's rivers flow into India.
18:18This also was a very important part in their life. And when this started waning about three years
18:26back, three to four years back when we stopped recruiting, because our political masters decided
18:33that we would now recruit only Agnevis, that people who served only four years,
18:39and after four years, only 25% of them would serve the balance of their time.
18:45This Nepal said was against the tripartite agreement of 1948, wherein we had Britain,
18:57India and Nepal had a treaty wherein we said that we would treat Nepalese soldiers
19:06similar to the soldiers, to how we treat Indian soldiers in India.
19:14So, while technically, it was not something that we are doing wrong against the treaty,
19:20but Nepal felt slightly that India did not consult them on the Agnevis. And therefore,
19:27stopped sending her manpower to serve in the India. It's been over three years now
19:35that we have not got a single soldier from Nepal.
19:38I see, three years.
19:39It has certainly affected our relationship.
19:44Because of the Agnevis scheme, for three years now, you've not received any Nepali or Indian
19:50soldier?
19:52Not a single soldier.
19:55And for how much longer do you think this status will last?
20:01I hope we are able to find a solution, sir. The Nepalese soldiers are excellent soldiers.
20:11They are the cream of the Nepalese society. They're strong, they're intelligent, they're
20:16well-educated and they are more than anything else, you know, a plus for the Indian army.
20:27And more than that,
20:28they are a huge relationship requirement that India needs to have.
20:38If we are getting the best soldiers into India, sir, these soldiers then don't join anywhere else.
20:45Otherwise, you've heard that, you know, PLA is making overtures to them.
20:49They have been now serving in Russia.
20:53Parts of them are serving in the US. Some of them are serving in the foreign region.
20:58If there are no jobs in Nepal, where will Nepal's able-bodied manpower go?
21:06If the PLA offers them good terms, they will certainly go to the PLA.
21:12And if they go to the PLA, having soldiers so close to our border who had served the PLA would
21:18be naturally a very strategic defeat for us.
21:24Part of having these soldiers was that because there is no fence between India and Nepal,
21:30these soldiers would be our natural defense against any inimical elements coming into India.
21:40And unfortunately, by removing them, we are removing our natural defenses that exist in Nepal.
21:48The second thing that I said, sir, that these are very politically savvy ex-servicemen.
21:54They are people who are able to shape opinion.
22:00Yes, yes.
22:01And that opinion shaper, they were shaping opinion towards India, which is very important.
22:09You can imagine, sir, which country has 128,000 people being paid double the amount of
22:17being paid directly by us.
22:19They belong to us.
22:21And I remember as a DA, going to them in Nepal and speaking to them, and they would say,
22:26sir, we have eaten the salt of India, we are of India, we are brothers.
22:33And more than brothers, we will protect India till our last drop of blood.
22:38Absolutely, absolutely.
22:40And this relationship was strengthened by their children and their grandchildren coming to us.
22:48Generations following.
22:50Absolutely.
22:51And their children were educated here.
22:54You know, when I was there in Kathmandu, and you know, Girija Prasad Koirala had taken over
23:02the government, and the elections had been held.
23:05I just did a brief survey of how many ex-servicemen children were MPs in the Nepalese House of
23:14Parliament. You'd be surprised that out of the 500, there were 62 of them who were children of
23:20our ex-servicemen. That's a huge number.
23:23Very, very significant.
23:24Very, very significant number.
23:27People we could have been talking to, people we could have, you know, we didn't, you don't need
23:33with the kind of education they've got, with the kind of training they've got in India,
23:38and in the Indian Army, you don't need to manipulate them.
23:41They have such wonderful memories about India.
23:45So, by taking them away, or by stopping them, we have created problems for ourselves.
23:54No, I must, it's very disturbing because the Gurkha soldier for us, for the Indian Army has been
24:06exemplary.
24:07He's very professional.
24:09He's very brave.
24:11Like, God bless his soul, Sam Bahadur, Sam managed to say,
24:19if you find a chap who's doing things beyond anyone's expectations, he's either a Gurkha or
24:26he's mad.
24:27You know, I mean, he said it in a very complimentary way.
24:32Absolutely, even today.
24:36Yes.
24:36Units are more fabulous.
24:39And they have, what is so touching is that they have shed blood for India.
24:50They have, you know, with a lot of spirit, with a lot of josh, they've shed blood for us.
25:00And they fought very, very bravely.
25:02And to lose such, you know, such a resource, to have such a relationship affected is certainly
25:15not, you know, doesn't spell well for the Army.
25:21Do you see any, do you feel there is enough of concern about this in the government?
25:35Or do you think there is anything that the government is going to do to at least, even
25:43if it means making an exception in the Agni Veer, you know, scheme or system?
25:51It must make us make an exception.
25:55So, absolutely must.
25:57It's important for us to understand that these are very fabulous resource belonging to a
26:03country which is inside our defensive system.
26:09Nepal is on the, you know, located strategically on the head of our core of India, the Indo-Benjaminic
26:18plain.
26:19And we do not need enemies there.
26:22We need friends, we need people who like us.
26:25Absolutely.
26:26We cannot have inimical elements in Nepal.
26:28Nepal has to understand that they are a part of India's ecosystem, security ecosystem.
26:37And we must give them the greatest regard and respect.
26:41They're also the upper rebellion, all Nepal's rivers go into India.
26:46And that's a huge advantage.
26:49No, no, no doubt.
26:50Absolutely, no doubt.
26:52And I sincerely hope that the government, you know, is going to do something about this
27:00because we cannot afford to.
27:03The Gurkha Brigade is a very, very essential part of the Indian Army, right from, you know,
27:13right from the, you know, we can't, we can't forget about the First and Second World Wars
27:23because they were fought under the British flank.
27:25The fact remains that it was 25, it was 1.5 million, 15 lakh Indian soldiers who won the
27:38British, the First World War, the Allies, the First World War.
27:43And it was 25 lakh Indian soldiers who won the British, the Allies, the Second World War.
27:50And many of them were Gurkhas.
27:55And the British, they've not, you know, they've not, they still, they still hang on to them.
28:05And so should we.
28:07And I feel this is a very, very important part of the diplomatic relationship.
28:16One is...
28:17I just hope, I just hope we understand that and just hope that we are able to change our
28:23plans and thoughts.
28:25The RM, Sri Rajnath Singh had indicated that they were, the government was open to re-looking
28:33at the funding exchange.
28:35So I'm hoping that they will re-look at it and we'll be able to get back our Gurkha brothers
28:40into our Gurkha debate because they are extremely important to us.
28:48Shokin, thank you.
28:50Is there, is there anything else you'd like to add to, you know, apart from whatever we
28:57have discussed?
28:59Sir, thank you for, you know, getting my book.
29:02Thank you for talking about it.
29:04This book is important to me.
29:07I am part of...
29:07Your book, your book will be, will be read with a lot of, I'm looking forward.
29:14I've just started reading it and I will be reviewing it and having it published in a
29:22number of publications.
29:24Thank you so much, sir.
29:25Thank you so much, sir.
29:32Would you briefly like to just briefly give out the, what is the importance of your book?
29:41The issue is that while there are a lot of academics who have written books on the India-Nepal
29:47relationship, there are none who have written about our military relationship, which I feel
29:54is the cornerstone of the relationship between India and Nepal.
29:59There are none who talk about the kind of work that the Indian military does in Nepal.
30:05There are none that talk about the background of this military relationship.
30:10I have covered the battles.
30:11I have covered Nepal's battles.
30:13I have covered the Indian army battles and I have covered their bravery.
30:18Briefly, Elton, do you have anything else to add to some of the very important points
30:25that we've discussed?
30:28Just a couple of issues, sir.
30:31Firstly, Nepal is an extremely important strategic country for us.
30:38It is important because it is within our defensive system in the sense that it is in our side
30:45of the Himalayas and it is extremely important for us that Nepal understands this need of India
30:55to secure itself and we must make Nepal understand it as well as we must understand that Nepal is
31:05sovereign country and needs to be treated as a sovereign country and not as some kind of
31:12lackey of India.
31:14That's the first issue.
31:15The second issue is that we must understand that all Nepal's rivers flow into India.
31:23So, as far as India is concerned, the Indo-Gangetic plains which are the
31:31core of India's civilization, the waters from Nepal flow into India there
31:38and Nepal is the upper barrier.
31:40So, we wouldn't want anything to happen to the water that flow from there.
31:47We would like to control the flow from Nepal so that we don't have floods.
31:52At the same time, that water is extremely important for our civilization.
31:59That's the second point.
32:00The third point is that we need Nepal's people to be with us.
32:06We need these Murkha soldiers to be a part of our army and we wouldn't like
32:13inimical elements especially the PLA or China or even Pakistan to start recruiting them
32:19because we cannot afford to have enemy soldiers at our very vulnerable point.
32:26Enemy countries, two enemy countries who would start recruiting them.
32:32We cannot have that.
32:34It's important for us to know and that we cannot build fences everywhere.
32:39To build another fence along the 1776 kilometer long Indo-Nepal border would be
32:46very costly in terms of manpower, in terms of people, in terms of economy
32:50and we must secure ourselves with the goodwill of people rather than creating them.
32:57It is in our interest that we continue to have a great relationship with Nepal.
33:03It is in our interest that we continue to help Nepal achieve economic gains.
33:09It is in Nepal's interest to take advantage of India's economic miracle
33:14and to understand that China is using us whereas India is an actual brother.
33:24For Nepal, she is India open.
33:26She's not landlocked, she's India open.
33:29That is something that Nepal needs.
33:31I have mentioned this in my book.
33:34Thank you for talking with me.
33:37I wish you to read this book and read the message that my book underlines that we too
33:44are great friends, we must continue to be great friends.
33:47We are natural allies, we are natural, we are a civilization that we are one people
33:56but two nations, that's the most important.
33:59Thank you so much sir for getting me on the show and to cover my book.
34:06Thank you Shukin Jalchand.
34:10You have brought out some very, very important points and the government must take note of
34:20the fact that for three years, not getting any soldier from Nepal into the Indian army
34:31is a very great and crucial loss and this must be made up.
34:38It must be made up by whichever way, whether you make an allowance in the Agnivir system
34:45or you make changes to it, whichever way.
34:49This is one resource we must not lose and that this relationship goes much beyond.
34:58The Gurkhas from Nepal have fought for India.
35:05They've dedicatedly fought and shed their blood, willingly shed their blood
35:12and this is one relationship which must only be strengthened and not weakened.
35:19Thank you very much Jalchand. All the best.
35:24Thank you Karnad.