Vice Admiral Shekhar Sinha (retd.) former FOC-in-C, Western Naval Command speaks with Col Anil Bhat (retd.) on the Indian Navy’s Indian Ocean challenges and outreach | SAM Conversation
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00:00Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor. I'm Colonel Anil Bhatt
00:18and it's a pleasure to welcome Vice Admiral Shekhar Sinha, former FOC-NC, Western Naval
00:30Command. Old short with a lot of operational experience and highly decorated too. Admiral
00:47Sinha, in the past few months, in fact quite recently, the Indian Navy went through an
00:59Operation Sunkult, where I think it acquitted itself in a period of 100 days. It, I think,
01:11responded to 18 incidents, got popularly known as first responder of preferred security partner,
01:20did a thousand boarding operations, nabbed 3,000 kgs of narcotics, was given an on-the-spot
01:33citation by the Naval Chief, and importantly, how INS Chardha on 2nd February conducted an
01:45anti-piracy operation, where they were, they rescued 19 crew members, 11 Iranians, 8 Pakistanis,
01:58and a very, very well-coordinated operation, where even the helicopter and the Prahar team
02:10were used. We have, for a number of years, we've been involved in a number of, you know,
02:21exercises with foreign navies like the Malabar and a number of others. And the way we are,
02:35you know, ensuring the safety of the Indian Ocean region is, I think, something which is
02:46for decades now. But what was a little worrisome is how the PLA Navy is becoming, you know,
03:01it's getting a little too expansionist, particularly where the Indo-Pacific, South
03:12China and East China Seas are concerned. I invite your comments.
03:17Namaskar to your viewers and you. Thank you very much, Col. Bhatt sir, for inviting me to your
03:26forum. I really have great respect for your questioning because these are very important
03:35questions. Coming back to what Indian Navy has been doing for the last 100 plus days that you
03:43talked about in the Operational Central, sir, this is the Indian Navy's peacetime role,
03:51ensuring security of all seafarers, the maritime security of all seafarers in the
04:03sea lanes of communication which pass through the Indian Ocean region.
04:07This is a laid down task of the Indian Navy in peacetime, apart from human assistance and
04:14disaster relief, anti-narcotics, anti-piracy, etc., etc. So, it is irrespective of the
04:21nationality of the ship or the crew that as a seafaring country, as a responsible seafaring
04:29country, it is our duty to save lives, save the property and ensure that the world trade
04:39carries on absolutely as it is in the free and open sea. Now, this has been Indian Navy's,
04:46Indian government's policy ever since we were independent. So, I would say, sir, that this
04:53task is not new. And this Indian Navy has been involved in this for last 70 or 75, 79 years.
05:02The Indian Navy's, you know, the force buildup has been done on this background.
05:11Whether the government of India had a policy of having a big Navy or not,
05:19but the naval commanders, the naval planners, right in the beginning, they realized that
05:26Indian Navy's role will be to ensure safety from the states of Malacca to the Gulf of
05:32Aden and to the states of Hormuz. And the force buildup was done with that in mind,
05:38as to how many ships will be required. On many occasions, the then government of India agreed,
05:43not agree, did not give enough funding. And we realized that for a country which has just come
05:49out of colonization, there are so many requirements for development, industry, human development,
05:56education, healthcare, it will be very difficult for any government to buy everything from
06:01outside, particularly the naval assets are high value. And it takes a long time to build. To give
06:09that kind of money, it would not have been possible for any government to support the
06:13naval requirement for the task which Navy has given for itself. Mind you, this task was laid
06:20down by the Navy and submitted to the government. And government neither said yes nor said no.
06:25So therefore, we assume that it is acceptable and we went ahead. And right in the beginning,
06:31the naval planners decided that we have to build our own warships. And therefore, the public sector,
06:42you know, the PSUs, shipyards, they were given charge to the former naval officers
06:51or naval officers of the engineering and construction branch, who were asked to retire
06:56and take on the task of the CMT. So that they understood what the naval requirement was of a ship
07:03and what kind of ship it requires and what is the time frame because they have been part of the
07:07policymaking in the Navy. And we made a naval design bureau. We have our own designers to
07:14design the ship right from the drawing board. And thereafter, they give it to the shipyards to build
07:20it. Now it is again headed by a naval officer with all the technical expertise of civil world.
07:27Fabrication, ship building, treatment, electronics, etc. So I would say that the
07:34whole ecosystem has been built since the early 60s. In 65, yes, the first ship which came out
07:42was INS Nilgiri. It was built completely in India. However, our weapon systems did not match,
07:50the development did not match the requirement. And therefore, the weapon systems had to be imported.
07:57And subsequently DRDO tied up and we started making in collaboration.
08:01But that is just to tell you that why do we have such a big workforce and how we have managed
08:06in spite of Navy getting the least amount of funding, which I'm sure you'll agree you are
08:11an army officer yourself, you have seen this. But what has happened?
08:16If I may, please just intervene here. Sure.
08:20Admiral Sinha, you've been very modest. What happened till 1971 was that I've often,
08:32well, I keep shooting my mouth off about the Indian Army, but it's a service I have a lot of
08:38time for. And right from before the National Defence Academy, having had an uncle in the
08:45service, and right from the National Defence Academy, one has always been fascinated by the
08:50Navy. The government was, as I put it, sea blind. Forget about 1947-48, where even with the
09:03few comets with which we began, we could have done, you know, quite a bit of damage.
09:09In 1965, we didn't think about, and in 1971, Admiral Nanda, popularly known as Charles,
09:20he grabbed the opportunity, you know, from Mrs. Gandhi, and he proved what we were all about.
09:30With the way those very recently acquired missile boats, you know, the way they were taken,
09:36and every single operation carried out. In fact, since before the war officially began,
09:46in both the western and eastern seaboard, the Indian Navy, you know, for the first time,
09:54being launched about it, proved it's more than proved it's, you know, worth. And since then,
10:04um, I think when, when we, when the Indian Navy operated the Goa Liberation,
10:12eyebrows were going up, oh, so India has a Navy. I mean, that was the attitude
10:18towards India. And yet, y'all being the silent service, yeah, y'all achieved a lot.
10:25And I say that now is a sort of a brief testing time. I have no doubt that in any confrontation,
10:35having seen how the PLA, you know, functions in a state of war, like it was in 1967. That was the
10:471967. That was the second time that, you know, we, after that, they've been, they
10:54pressed us very hard that let's not fire at each other.
10:59So, that is the mindset of the PLA, whether it's Army, Navy or Air Force.
11:05They're very good at building up, they've got a tremendous arsenal. But anyway, I, I, I,
11:13I wait for your comments on, you know, please continue.
11:21You're right, sir. You're right that the country was sea blind. And let me, let me for a minute
11:28act as a devil's advocate. You know, sir, there are, there are big reasons for it. If you see
11:34India's history, most of our threats have come from the land, they have come from the northwestern
11:40region. And right up to the Mughals who came from the central Asian region crossed into what
11:47present-day Pakistan and Mughals established a rule here of which will lasted for nearly
11:53500 years, maybe more. And when the British came, they came by sea, they came for trade,
12:00they came to Calcutta first. But they realized that the during the Mughal time, slowly the
12:07whatever Navy we had, we had a Navy during the time of King Ashoka, during the time of Cholas,
12:13we had a very good Navy and Shivaji on the western seaboard. So, these, these were all
12:20various different states within the purview of the greater Indian nation. But they were never
12:25acted as a one Navy or one armed force, because they were all small, small princely states.
12:31And they all had their individual problems with either the Portuguese or the British, or on the
12:38eastern side, with smaller countries, who are, you know, size smaller, not having enough Navy.
12:43And Cholas also encountered some hurdle, you know, Indonesia, Malaysia, they encountered,
12:49but they're very small. So, they all grew their own navies in their own right. And they gave a
12:55very hard time to the British. But as the Indian Navy, we didn't exist, which was first time
13:01realized by the British. And British also realized that during the Mughal time, there has been a
13:06complete decimation or shall I say desiccation of the existing naval structure of the state
13:14called India. Bharat Wars ka jo tha ho, that was destroyed. Shivaji Navy, Chola Navy, everything.
13:22So, it suited the British because it was all infractions. And they wanted to keep it like that.
13:27And therefore, they kept telling the Indian leaders at that time who were fighting for
13:31independence that look, you had a problem from the northwest, you have a problem with
13:37China sitting in the in the north. And one day it will become your big problem. And therefore,
13:44protecting your land borders is most important. And that has been ingrained into our polity
13:50for a long, long time. And I would hazard to say that it is slowly going away, but it is still
13:57there. And which is right. Yeah, which is right. So because after all, we don't want to lose any
14:05territory. Territorial integrity when we talk it is on the northern and northwestern border,
14:11areas through which the British for the Mughals came. And now you have China,
14:16an independent Pakistan, who is sitting into Pak occupied Kashmir, and China who's using
14:22salami slicing and coming pushing you down. And therefore, to government's attention,
14:28and in a very difficult terrain where a lot of manpower, a lot of human beings,
14:32human lives are lost, which concerns the government. And therefore, a lot of money
14:36was being devoted. But now that there is a relative peace, I would say peace, it's an
14:41easy peace, uneasy peace, but there is peace. The government has realized that no, there is more to
14:47grow because you have hardly any land trade. You know, from the time the present government has
14:53come to power in the present Prime Minister, he being probably from a maritime state, Gujarat,
14:59he understands the maritime world better than what we had in the past. He didn't have any leader who
15:05understood the maritime world. And this gentleman has got a maritime thinking in his mind.
15:11Because it belongs to a state. So now we have that, yes, we have to protect the sea lanes of
15:18communication, what Navy has been saying since 1947 is correct, and we need to support the Navy.
15:25So now you'll find that gradually from 10%, to 12%, to 15%, to 16%, to 17%, and yet you're
15:32managing. Like you mentioned that what the Navy has been doing. Yes, we are managing because the
15:37Navy started planning for this. In 1960s, it started building its own ship. And we have today,
15:46happy to say that there are very one odd ship which is imported. Otherwise, every ship is built
15:51in India, including the aircraft carrier, which is a big technical jump. So I would say, sir,
15:58that what we are doing now, why the name has come so much, you know, the merchant vessel
16:04is hijacking and then Indian Navy taking over. Sharda, as you mentioned, very right, sir.
16:08But this is our actually primary duty. And therefore, we consider this as a day to day
16:14life. Why it has come into light? Yes, the activities of the piracy hijacking has increased
16:22from the time Bhutis have started attacking the merchant shipping, which is passing through the
16:28Red Sea and Suez Canal. What is happening is that as a revenge of the loss of the lives in Gaza,
16:37you know, because of the Hamas-Israel problem, the Bhutis want to take a revenge. Primarily,
16:43they wanted to attack the American and the Israeli assets which are passing through. But
16:49it is difficult to identify, difficult to identify which ship whereabouts, unless they are monitoring
16:56the International Maritime Organization website, which they are. Therefore, you will find that
17:02they haven't attacked any Indian ship to date. They haven't attacked any Chinese ship to date.
17:10They have attacked other ships, but not Indian ships. So you will find that, you know,
17:16what Indian Navy is doing is benevolence.
17:28No doubt. If I may please request you to look at, you know, the PLA Navy has been
17:41very, very active in, you know, snooping. Isn't that a bit worrisome? I'm sure that,
17:53you know, the Indian Navy is not at all, you know, letting that go.
18:03And I can understand that they may not be, we may not be able to discuss
18:13all that is being done. But if you can throw some light on, because, you know,
18:20whether it's our involvement with the Quad or some of the exercises which we've been having
18:27in Singapore, then of late with the Vietnamese, Japanese,
18:36is it making a difference? Is it making the Chinese, you know, a little uneasy, to say the
18:47least? Sir, I would say it's a very good question you've asked, particularly to
18:54a naval officer who spent nearly 42 years in the Navy. So this has been always a matter of concern.
19:00And now the concern has grown even more. As you rightly said, the Chinese Navy ships are
19:05snooping in this area. You know, so the problem is at sea there are no borders.
19:10And it is open to the world to use the sea. Even today, the shipping is the cheapest mode
19:20of transportation, even today. And most of the logistics for India, it is 95% of our trade
19:26is on seas. Because we don't have any land neighbor who's your friend. Who will you trade
19:32with? Bangladesh recently, that's it. Others are only, they hardly trade, others are
19:38living on your booty, really. So I would say that this has been realized by the government,
19:44that the trade has to be protected and not as an offensive role, as a defensive role,
19:50that we will protect our trade wherever it is passing. And mind you, sir, the seas are very
19:56large, 70% of the world is ocean. Similarly, in India, we have more sea area than land.
20:02If you just look at the map, you'll find that you'll see blue more than you know what you see
20:07white in the center. But of course, we have a very troubled border, you can't ignore that.
20:11You cannot ignore it must remain your primary, you know, security concern, certainly. But here,
20:17there is a lot of scope for security problem, which is happening now at sea. So what has
20:22happened is that the therefore, because the sea is big, no one country's asset can ensure maritime
20:31security in the whole world. Because the 70% of water, not one country can have. Many years ago,
20:38in 2007, I used to be Fleet Commander, Western Fleet, and we had then CNO of US Navy,
20:45Admiral Mike Mullen, who later on became the Joint Chiefs of Staff head, and then he retired. He's a
20:51great man. He was touring India, was touring Bombay. And he came to visit the Virat and we
20:57were walking on the flight deck on top. And then at the end of it, there was a press briefing on
21:02board the ship. And he said that we need a thousand ship Navy to ensure maritime security
21:09in the world. Now, he was misquoted by a lot of people in the press at that time,
21:16that US Navy is going to build a thousand ship Navy. So I had to do a lot of firefighting after
21:23he left, which he said, he in fact, he called me, he said, Admiral, thank you very much for
21:29saving my skin. I said, Sir, I know what you meant. You meant the world should have thousand
21:34ship Navy. Mind you, Sir, as an aside, with Chinese Navy having built up so much, US Navy so much,
21:42Indian Navy so much, world still has not reached the figure of 1000 ships, Sir.
21:48The Chinese have 370 ships, they're aiming for 435.
21:52What I'm saying is, I'm talking about this 2007. And we are in 2024. Even now,
21:59the world all navies put together has not reached 1000 ships. This estimate was that
22:05you require a thousand ship Navy to ensure security. So obviously, even now the security
22:10is not 100%. I'm just trying to make that point. So therefore, you got to have a cooperation,
22:18you have to have like minded countries coming together and contributing to security in their
22:24own area. That is why you will find whenever there's a bilateral visits of Prime Minister
22:30and the team, the first thing to be agreed is maritime security cooperation. This is the reason.
22:37No other reason, you know, you don't want to make a Navy big, no, we want to make sure that your
22:42trade and my trade should be secured. How do we secure it will work it out. So this is the
22:47maritime security. That do we have enough assets to help our friends? Or do the friends have enough
22:55understanding to participate? As a result, in Indian Ocean region, we have a very robust maritime
23:02domain awareness network. This your viewers must understand. What it means is that sea being so
23:11large, if you stand at the tip of India on the Indira point, it is 1500 kilometers towards
23:18Straits of Hormuz, Gulf of Aden, and 1500 kilometers towards the Straits of Malacca.
23:25You're looking at a diameter of 3000 kilometers, and you look at it like this, it's hell of a lot.
23:31You will require, I don't know how big a Navy it is not possible. So you have to tie up with
23:36your neighbors. So we have tied up, you mentioned about the bilateral exercises. Yes, we have with
23:42Myanmar, we have with Bangladesh, we have with Thailand, we have 24 maritime neighbors
23:49in the Indian Ocean. And we have bilateral with all 24 including the Gulf.
23:54So, but gradually, because of China's economic rise, China also had a military rise.
24:03And now China is looking to displace the United States from the one number one position in the
24:10world. And therefore, they say that the international order, the world order is going to change. What is
24:17this world order which is going to change? Till now, after the Cold War ended, we have had a
24:23virtually US led order in the world, a Western model, by which the most powerful country
24:31economically and militarily, you know, they had their own way, they're like they're a regime.
24:37You know, they did what they wanted anywhere. And everybody accepted that leadership.
24:43But now China wants to displace the Americans from this number one position. Displace how?
24:50Economically and militarily. There are only two elements, two, you know,
24:56levers of state power, as far as I understand, one is economy, one is military. Now, these two
25:03levers of state power, China is nearly caught up in one, that is economy, nearly there. And it is
25:10going to displace us, no doubt. So that leadership, however, as far as the military power,
25:16leadership is concerned, though it has made a lot of things, my own very personal belief is
25:22that China will not be able to displace the Americans in the foreseeable future.
25:27Because the complex, the technological complex, military complex, which is with the US,
25:33it is not possible for China to catch up in the foreseeable future. What China has done is,
25:40because of the little bit of largeness of the Americans, most of the manufacturing,
25:47even of defense related or dual technology items were transferred to China, because of the low
25:54cost of building. And China has done very well to steal the, you know, the IPRs, and they've
26:00started manufacturing all this on their own. And now they are very good at, you know, cyber
26:05espionage, cyber stealing, etc, etc. So I would say that, thankfully, the US has woken up,
26:13and they have put this restriction, the West has woken up, I would say that they will resist to
26:19the hilt, so that China does not become number one technologically, they will not allow them to
26:25happen. Because when you say it is Chinese led world order, you know, we are asking for problem,
26:32because they're all autocracies. There are four countries, I don't want to name, you know them,
26:37one of them, two of them are friends, these four countries, autocratic setup, single party rule,
26:45is not what Indians want. We have 1.4 billion people, and we have 1.4 billion different minds.
26:54Indians are known to have their independent mind. And therefore, the strategic autonomy
26:59and independence of thinking, it cannot go. If anybody says India will become an ally,
27:03I can give it in writing, India will never become an ally to anybody, never. So we have a Quad,
27:09Quad has no military connotation. No, nil. It has only got economy, it has got technology,
27:17it has got pharmaceutical, it has got space, which is primarily to build capabilities in
27:23the countries, which the Quad feels that they need to be brought up. Because the US realized
27:30that if by themselves, if they start doing everything, it is not possible. So they have
27:34gone back to what Mike Mullen said in 2007, that, you know, we have to be ahead of everybody else.
27:41So now they have realized that yes, Mike was correct. And they are making sure that if you
27:46can't do alone, you choose your partners in different areas of the world. Indo-Pacific,
27:52you mentioned, it consists of Indian Ocean, South China Sea and the Pacific. In Pacific,
27:58US is all pervasive. Now they have taken Australia in the loop. South China Sea, Japan,
28:04and US. In Indian Ocean, India and US. So these are the four, four leaders of their own regions.
28:13And therefore the Quad, yes, we have an organization called Malabar, where the navies
28:19of all four countries are together and they exercise. Now, mind you, sir, Malabar started
28:25as a bilateral exercise between India and the US. It was not meant for anybody else.
28:31Why it happened, I must tell you, your viewers must know. It happened because when the Cold War ended
28:391989-1990, the Americans always thought that India is an ally of the Soviet Union, because we bought
28:48items from Russia, Soviet Union, later on Russia, without realizing that we bought it because we
28:54didn't have access to the Western technology. America is the one who denied us the technology
28:58when we asked for it in 1962. So Russia came to our rescue and they gave us at a very reasonable
29:06price. And therefore Russia has been our defense supplier since then. And even now our legacy items,
29:12etc., almost 50-55% is still Russia. And it will remain so for quite some time because you don't
29:18just write off. So Russia has become our pillar. So when Secretary Blinken was asked recently last
29:26year in the US by somebody that, you know, how are you sort of letting India have best of both worlds,
29:33you know, they are buying so many Russian. He said, well, they are buying because we didn't
29:38give it to them. Now we have to give it to them so that they don't buy from Russia anymore.
29:44So that, you know, that correspondent was speechless. Secretary of State saying this in US
29:51to a correspondent who was from some American journal. I just happened to be traveling and I
29:58sort of saw this. I said there is and then I quoted in some article and after that it has
30:02been quoted quite frequently. So what I'm saying, sir, that these four countries will have to be
30:08together. Technologically, if they are together and they are very close to each other's technology,
30:15then you can resist the Chinese aggressiveness. China is not only rising, it is very aggressively
30:25rising. You look at economic coercion in India's neighborhood. Sri Lanka, Maldives, Bangladesh,
30:33Myanmar, Nepal, Bhutan, you name it. Pakistan is by and large a vassal state.
30:39By and large, you know, by name it is Pakistan. But the all entire military is run by the Chinese.
30:48The entire economy is run by the Chinese. It's only a matter of time that Gwadar will have a
30:54fully fledged Chinese fleet. It's only a matter of time. They have started in Djibouti. They will
31:01have one in one of the ports on the eastern part of Africa. I know which ports they are looking for,
31:07but it may not happen because you know, they are very close to
31:11India as well. So that tussle is going on right now. So I think so that
31:18unfortunately at sea, the total traffic at sea at any given time, 90% is merchant ship,
31:26not warship. You just can't keep go shooting is not black and white.
31:31Because here you leave your territorial waters of 12 nautical mile and everybody's your friend.
31:42It is not only the law of the land which we have to protect. We follow the International
31:47Maritime Organization rule of seafaring. We also follow UNCLOS, United Nations Convention on Law
31:54of the Sea. It is not only meant to warship. It gives the right of innocent passage to every ship
32:01in the world, including warship. But each country has been given the option that for warships,
32:08you can frame your rule, you know, as long as you can enforce it. So for example,
32:17India has framed the rules that in the contiguous zone, which is 24 nautical miles,
32:23no foreign submarine can transit submerged. It has to be on the surface and flying that country's
32:32flag. So if any other submarine in 24 nautical miles, roughly about 44-45 kilometers from the
32:40coastline, if any submarine which is not ours, and it is transiting and our anti-submarine forces
32:47have got hold of him, it can force it to surface. There are there are ways of indicating we have
32:54scare charges. So you surface, if it does not surface on two warnings on the third one,
33:02they are legally entitled to drop a death charge bomb.
33:08Unfortunately, we are short of time. Thank you so very much
33:18for bringing some of these very, very, very important aspects out.
33:26Particularly your last one about how, you know, an offensive submarine can be dealt with.
33:37And maybe we never have to do it, but it's reassuring that we, you know,
33:45there's so much more we will certainly try to meet again. But thank you very much.
33:51Sir, just one correction. It has been done, sir. We have done it ourselves to the submarines.
33:57And when it did surface, we did drop the death charge and nearly killed that submarine.
34:01Unfortunately, by then he went out of the Indian, he was also transiting. So he went out of the
34:06contiguous zone. So we observe the rules very meticulously, because there's nobody to monitor
34:12you. So a self-discipline is very important as far as implementation of UNCLOS is concerned.
34:18So we do it very religiously. But, you know, we are also a seafaring nation. We are not only
34:22military, we are seafaring nation. We are like any other seafarer. Tomorrow somebody makes a SOS,
34:28we have to help. He can be Pakistan. The Indian Navy has a very, very solid
34:34history of assistance. In the tsunami, countries reached out to us too, you know.
34:42Yes.
34:43Even up to Indonesia, we gave assistance. Out of that, there's no doubt.
34:51Thank you very much, Admiral Sinha. We look forward to meeting again.
34:55Thank you very much, sir. It will be a pleasure to come back. Thank you for calling me, sir.