NYC Public Defender: The Police Commissioner Has A Financial Incentive To Say 'Our City Is Unsafe'

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NYC public defender and former Manhattan DA candidate Eliza Orlins joins "Forbes Newsroom" to discuss crime in New York City.

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Transcript

00:00 What do you think the disconnect is?

00:02 You know, I think that there is a failure to recognize on the part of many people that the

00:10 prison industrial complex is a money-making machine, that people will often say, "Oh,

00:16 but private prisons make money." No, every single jail and prison is making money. You know,

00:21 the Department of Corrections has this massive budget. The police have this massive budget.

00:24 They need to justify that budget. They need to justify their existence. And if they can't

00:30 fearmonger around crime and say, "We need to have more police in the subway. We need to make more

00:34 arrests. We need to lock up more people," then they will lose their livelihood. So there is an

00:40 incentive, a monetary, a financial incentive on the part of the police commissioner, for example,

00:46 to say, "Oh, our city's unsafe. Oh, we keep releasing people who should be locked up,"

00:51 because that's what they want to do. They want to continue this system. They want to continue to

00:55 lock up poor people and Black and brown people for minor offenses. Crime is down in the subway system

01:02 in March 2024. There also have been an additional 1,000 police officers deployed in the transit

01:09 system. Do you see any correlation here at all? No, I think that the additional officers in the

01:17 stations are not, in fact, keeping us safe. For the most part, they're standing around playing

01:21 Candy Crush on their phones. They're not actually doing anything to keep our city safe. And if you

01:27 remember the horrible shooting that took place in Brooklyn in a subway station, that is a subway

01:32 station where there is a police station. There is a police hub there, and they certainly did nothing

01:39 to prevent crime there. So I think the idea that additional police officers in our subway system

01:45 will keep us safer is absurd. I know that this is a larger conversation that really can't be

01:50 narrowed down into one response, but you're saying bail reform does work. It's imperfect,

01:57 but it's going in the right direction. But overall, the system is broken. Do you think that's

02:03 what you're saying? And if so, how do we fix it or go in the right direction, in your opinion?

02:09 Well, you mentioned in my intro that I formerly ran for Manhattan District Attorney.

02:14 I see that this system, and often I don't call it broken. I say the system is operating as designed.

02:20 It's operating in a way that continues to marginalize and oppress people from marginalized

02:26 communities already. Black and brown people, poor people, LGBTQIA folks, people with disabilities,

02:32 people who have trouble navigating a system anyhow, and then those are the people who are

02:37 targeted by our criminal legal system. And so I think that the way that we need to address these

02:43 things is by not putting people through our criminal legal system, by providing funding for

02:49 education, for housing, for food insecurity, making sure that people have what they need,

02:54 making sure that people are able to get jobs and contribute to society, because that is the way

03:00 that we address crime. People receiving mental health treatment and treatment for substance use

03:05 disorder, not being locked up for those things. That is what would create a much better system

03:11 and a much better society. Republicans would say, not all, but some would say that response is

03:18 what's considered soft on crime. What do you say to that? You know, it's funny because they often

03:25 do say that. They use the phrase soft on crime. And in fact, the reality is that we just are

03:34 allowing them to create a narrative where public safety equals incarceration. But that's not true.

03:42 That's not what the data bears out. You know, when you look at these longitudinal studies in places

03:47 where they have stopped making arrests for minor offenses, for things like possessing a low amount

03:52 of drugs, for trespassing, for jumping a turnstile, like fair beating type offenses, the city ends up

03:59 safer because the recidivism happens when people are destabilized, when they are locked up for

04:04 short periods of time. If they had a job, they lose that job. If you miss work for a few days,

04:08 you just don't show up for your job, you lose your job. You know, then you can't pay your rent,

04:12 you lose your home. That is what creates more crime as opposed to the alternative, which is

04:18 making sure that we reallocate resources from police departments into things like housing,

04:23 like education, like treatment programs, because that is how we would keep people safe.

04:27 And do you think the city's doing a good job on that? Can you give us a grade here? What's

04:33 the city doing when it comes to those types of solutions? Unfortunately, Mayor Adams has

04:39 been an opponent of reform. I mean, once a cop, always a cop. Like this is someone who has

04:46 allocated more money to policing and to the police budget and to increasing the number of cops,

04:51 versus, and meanwhile is cutting funding for programs, cutting funding for education,

04:57 cutting funding for public libraries that now aren't even open on weekends. You know, that is

05:03 that is the exact opposite thing that we should be doing. And I really hope that the mayor will

05:07 reconsider and will instead allocate funding for things like programs for education for the

05:13 libraries. I am curious what you would say to the average TikTok user who's scrolling through their

05:19 phone, sees multiple accounts, young girls getting punched in the face, just walking down the street.

05:26 It was an unprovoked incident, as you did say, crime is down year over year overall, but heinous

05:32 crimes like rape and felony assault are up year over year. So what do you say when people see

05:37 these accounts? You know, I would say try to keep an open mind, try to like remain level-headed.

05:44 Don't let them whip you into a frenzy based on a couple small things. And I'm not saying it was

05:50 small for those people. I'm not invalidating their experience at all, because, you know,

05:54 being punched is horrible. But I would say that, you know, people should follow people like me on

05:59 TikTok, Eliza Orlins. And I talk about the ways in which, you know, people should engage with the

06:06 police. I talk about different stories of things that really shouldn't be criminalized and kind of

06:11 showing a different picture of what the city is really like. And so I think that while it's easy

06:17 to be whipped into a frenzy by certain users on TikTok and viral videos or by the New York Post

06:23 or by Fox News, that people should really take a step back, not miss the forest through the trees.

06:31 Is that the right saying? But really make sure that they're focusing on the broader picture,

06:37 which is that New York City is incredibly safe. As someone who takes the subway regularly,

06:42 you know, most days and even late into the night, I know how safe the city is. And I hope that

06:47 people recognize that. I know often people take one situation, one incident, and that's kind of,

06:55 you know, the standard bearer for a larger conversation here. You're a public defender

07:00 in the city. What do you think is missing from the national dialogue? You know, I really think

07:06 that I mean, I've been a public defender in Manhattan for the last 14 years, and I've

07:11 represented thousands of people. I have seen all the different types of crimes that do happen in

07:16 New York City. And I think that really, we need to be reframing the conversation about what public

07:22 safety means. So many of my clients who are arrested are arrested because they're dealing

07:27 with a mental health crisis, because there are insufficient ways to receive mental health

07:32 treatment in this city. Because do you know the number one provider of mental health treatment

07:37 in New York City is Rikers Island. There's something so deeply wrong with that, that

07:42 people should be able to receive mental health treatment in the community. They should have easy

07:45 access to that. People who are dealing with substance use disorder or addiction issues

07:49 should have access to receiving that kind of treatment and services in the community. So the

07:55 reality is the people who are getting arrested in our city are not, for the most part, you know,

08:00 hardening criminals on violent crimes. It's really minor offenses for people who are dealing with

08:05 with issues that should be, that would be better suited by being treated. I know you had some

08:11 strong words for Mayor Eric Adams. He said this reportedly, quote, "Stats don't matter if people

08:16 don't believe they are in a safe environment." So to your point about reframing the narrative,

08:22 reframing the conversation on public safety, how do you do that in an environment where people see

08:28 these videos, they see the headlines, and they don't feel safe? Well, I mean, Mayor Adams wants

08:35 to have his cake and eat it too. He's the one who's sitting there saying, "Oh, New York City is

08:39 safe. We live in a safe city. We live in a safe city." But then he's also the one who's

08:42 fear-mongering around crime. And so that is creating this feeling of unsafe, you know,

08:49 the way that people are responding is thanks in part to the mayor himself fear-mongering. So if

08:55 he and others would stop doing that, people wouldn't be walking through the city wondering

09:00 if they were safe, because they are safe. It's an extremely safe city. And so we really need to

09:07 make sure that our elected officials, our leaders, the people who are supposed to be looking out for

09:12 our city aren't out there creating this propaganda and these false narratives. Eliza Orlins, I

09:19 appreciate your perspective today. Thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me on. It

09:23 was great to talk to you.

NYC Public Defender: The Police Commissioner Has A Financial Incentive To Say 'Our City Is Unsafe'

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