"good day Stefan, I'd like a clarification on your definition of 'love'. As I understand it Love: is our involuntary response to virtue. How does that correlate to pets, very young relatives, and other relationships where virtue isn't the primary source. Is love only possible in intimate relationships? What do you call emotional distress when a death of a beloved pet dies? Obviously I'm not equating pets with people, but our emotions seem to treat them similarly. Not sure if there is an evolutionary or philosophical explanation that you can give but it seems to me that Love: is simply an evolutionary response to attachment based on resource gathering to include family structure. Again huge respect to your work, I'm just hoping to get more clarification on your thought process."
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LearningTranscript
00:00 Good morning everybody, hope you're doing well. Stefan Molyneux from Freedomain. Thank you for your questions freedomain.locals.com
00:05 and
00:07 We are talking of love
00:09 Freedomain good day Stefan. I'd like a clarification on your definition of love as
00:14 I understand it love is our involuntary response to virtue
00:19 How does that correlate to pets for a young relatives and other relationships where virtue isn't the primary source?
00:24 It's love only possible in
00:28 Intimate relationships. What do you call emotional distress when the death of a beloved pet dies?
00:34 Obviously, I'm not equating pets with people but our emotions seem to treat them similarly
00:38 Not sure if there is an evolutionary or philosophical explanation
00:42 That you can give but it seems to me that love is
00:44 Simply an evolutionary response to attachment based on resource gathering to include family structure again huge respect to your work
00:50 I'm just hoping to get more clarification on your thought
00:53 process
00:55 Yeah, that's a
00:58 Fine question and I appreciate the question
01:01 so let's
01:04 Let's dig in now
01:06 when it comes to
01:08 Love we have to talk about two aspects of it
01:12 evolutionary attachment and
01:15 philosophical love
01:17 so if we are to say that love is a form of
01:22 high attachment and high
01:25 Strong desire for resource provision and so on then we can include the evolutionary
01:31 situation right so monkeys have prefer obviously feeding their own young defeating various random animals and
01:39 Birds undergo great sacrifices to build nests and to feed their own
01:44 young there's one kind of bird that
01:48 teaches its offspring to admit a particular chirp and
01:53 If that particular chirp is not
01:55 admitted when the
01:58 mother or father comes back with food
02:00 Then they know it's a cuckoo when they pull it out of the nest and and kill it and so on right?
02:05 So there's a obviously
02:07 evolution requires
02:09 In group preference right evolution requires that you prefer your own genes
02:14 in radiating circles, right
02:17 What is it the old?
02:19 the old joke that the
02:22 evolutionary biologist said I would lay down my life for a two of my children or
02:27 four of my cousins or eight of my
02:31 Second cousins, whatever it is, right? So that's sort of the idea that you are there to serve
02:36 evolutionary reproduction, right so that's how that works now
02:42 we of course have evolved to have
02:45 dopamine and affection and delight in our own babies, so
02:52 That we provide them the resources that give them life
02:55 So affection really that's evolutionary affection and the affection sounds weak. It's a very strong force, of course, particularly
03:03 with human offspring human children, which require, you know, 20 years of
03:08 nourishing and coaching and so on
03:11 so
03:13 There is that level of attachment now
03:16 there's
03:18 attachment for
03:20 the genes and
03:22 Then there's a related attachment to that which facilitates the survival of the genes
03:28 right, so I mean I'll give you a silly example, so if you've ever had that situation where
03:37 You're in some structure. There's a storm raging outside. You're cozy in bed. You pull up the covers right to your chin and
03:45 You feel a sense of happiness gratitude and possibly even attachment for the good old sturdy house protecting you from the elements
03:52 People have this with their their cars, you know, there's that meme of
03:57 The guy whose car is like 22 years old every single light is flashing
04:02 It's like and the guy is saying to the car. I love you and the car is saying please let me die
04:07 I can't know because right so men have
04:11 Attachments and affection to their car men also have this with sneakers right? There's another meme. I'm sort of in this camp where
04:18 the wife has a
04:22 Closet full of shoes and says I'm running low on shoes and the man's sneakers are like tattered remnants of their former glory
04:28 And the man says to his sneakers. I love you and the sneakers are saying please let me die
04:32 my wife is not a shoe collector, but I definitely will hold on to shoes until
04:37 Like I won one slightly one step short of duct tape to keep them together. I'll hold on to shoes
04:42 I mean, I remember when I was working
04:44 Up north and we put together a prospectus hut, which is basically a large canvas
04:50 It's larger than a tent but smaller than a hut where we we lived in
04:53 you know - 20 - 30 degree weather and
04:56 there was a terrible hailstorm and the hailstorm the hails were like hailstones were
05:01 Crashing into the canvas top of this tent and I felt a great deal of affection for the tent because the tent was
05:09 Keeping me alive
05:11 so
05:12 Because we love our genes
05:14 We also have to have affection for that which serves our genes right that which ensures or it promotes our
05:20 possibilities of survival, right
05:23 so
05:25 What that means is that?
05:27 we love our children and
05:30 Of course we love life
05:32 so we love pets why because
05:34 We evolved to love pets because pets serve our survival. I mean we can go over this a million different ways, but
05:43 especially the pets that we had to keep alive, right a
05:47 farmer or a family generally has
05:49 more affection for the family dog than for a
05:56 Cow because the cow you know a little bit of affection, but you know, you're gonna slaughter the cow
06:00 You don't slaughter the family dog. So why don't you slaughter the family dog? Like what's the evolutionary reason for this, right?
06:07 Well, the evolutionary reason of course is that the dogs are necessary
06:11 For your survival or they certainly very much enhance your chances of survival
06:16 the dogs are used for herding the dogs guard you from predators the dogs guard your
06:22 Livestock from predators the dogs
06:25 Attack intruders like that. The dogs are
06:28 massively useful
06:30 To your survival. So what that means of course is
06:33 That if you look at sort of family a and family B
06:37 We'll talk about the Smiths and the Joneses right now the Smiths have an evolutionary quirk which gives them great affection
06:44 For a working dog
06:47 They like to play with the dog. They they bond with the dog. They take care of the dog
06:51 they provide resources to the dog and they
06:54 Train the dog to do useful things around the farm
06:57 well, if you compare that to the Joneses who don't have that
07:04 Evolutionary quirk they don't have any particular affection for pets. Well, who is more likely to survive in the long run?
07:11 well, the Smiths are more likely to survive because they invest to the dog which
07:17 Keeps the animal safe and provides them with
07:19 Security and free labor so to speak of virtually free labor. So that's the situation so evolutionarily
07:27 speaking we have an affection for
07:30 Certain animals and those animals that were useful on the farm generally correlate
07:35 To the kind of animals that I mean obviously dogs and cats, right?
07:40 They're the most useful and they're the most common pets, right?
07:42 So the animals that promoted our survival in the past are
07:46 Obviously not coincidentally the animals that we have the greatest affections for in the present
07:51 So those affections were evolved now, why were they evolved to aid in our survival in other words?
07:57 Those who had affection for cats and dogs
08:00 Were more likely to survive and their children were more likely to survive. So it's an evolutionary mechanism
08:08 we love our life and
08:11 we love our kids and
08:13 therefore
08:16 we love
08:18 Whatever serves it
08:20 Whatever serves our life whatever serves our kids dogs and cats in particular love. I'm sorry serve our
08:25 Lives and our kids in a rural setting in particular although in an urban setting as well dogs are very helpful
08:31 They were the original alarm systems, right?
08:33 if there were intruders if intruders are coming up and there's the sort of
08:37 cavalcade of big-ass dogs barking through the letter
08:41 Slots, then they're probably gonna move on somewhere else, right?
08:44 So it's a way of staying safe cats, of course in particular deal with the problems of road rodent infestation, right?
08:51 so if you get rodents into your grain, it's it's a complete disaster like an entire an
08:56 Entire year's labor could be wiped out or rendered dangerous and then you may end up having to eat contaminated grain
09:03 Which could kill you and it's just terrible. So having cats around is
09:07 absolutely essential the cats
09:10 The cats do labor that is unattended, right?
09:15 So the cats keep in particular keep the rats and mice away from your grain and so they do unattended labor
09:21 Which is why there's more of a distant relationship in many ways
09:23 Between the owners and the cats the cats are relying on natural instincts. The dogs have to be trained
09:31 so there's more of a
09:32 Bond and more of a time investment between owners and dogs than there is between owners and cats
09:37 so
09:39 Just in terms of like the next generation
09:41 We have a very strong attachment and affection to dogs and cats because they serve
09:48 Our survival and the survival of our offspring
09:52 So it is out of a love for our life and our offspring
09:55 That we have developed a love of the dogs and cats that serve that right so it's not a primary love
10:02 It is an attachment in order to right, right?
10:06 what's the end result of in order to well the end result of in order to with regards to parenting is to
10:14 raise children who are
10:17 competent effective and fundamentally
10:20 Reproductively successful, right? I mean that's that's the end goal, right?
10:24 At least it used to be now now it's not quite the opposite which shows just how powerful propaganda is, right? So
10:31 the purpose of
10:33 parenting is to
10:35 raise children who are no good decent kind productive people and
10:40 Morally strong and also who will themselves
10:44 reproduce right that is the goal of parenting and
10:48 those
10:51 People who had affection for dogs and cats
10:53 Would have offspring who were more likely
10:57 To survive so you understand that the affection for dogs and cats is not rooted in
11:03 affection for the animals themselves, otherwise, we would just have
11:07 affection for
11:10 four-legged mammals and it would be undiscriminated and so on and
11:12 in general, of course the the
11:16 Cliche and I think it's pretty true is that
11:19 Dogs are man's best friend right the man dogs are man's best friend
11:24 so in general
11:27 dogs
11:28 Would be trained by the men
11:30 To do labor around the farm
11:33 That is interactive
11:36 organized service dogs, right and
11:39 so it would be the men who would bond more with the dogs and train the dogs more and
11:44 Cats, of course have been traditionally associated with women
11:48 because
11:50 Women would be in the homestead and women
11:53 Would to some degree have the job of aiding in the guarding of the food that men are out there growing the food
11:59 But women have to guard the food and therefore women's bond with cats tends to be stronger
12:03 Than men's because that would be how it would work, right?
12:08 And again tons of exceptions, but that's the general the general state in case of things
12:12 So, of course we can look with regards to relatives while we share some of their genes
12:17 So there would be evolutionary attachments there and of course those who have affection
12:23 for relatives have a greater chance of their own children surviving because of course
12:28 relatives age in the survival of children, right
12:33 So you're out there hunting or working in the fields
12:36 You need someone to take care of your kids while your wife is I don't know
12:40 Make it the jam or pickling or whatever or hunter gathering locally or whatever
12:44 Gathering in particular right so you would need the grandparents to do all of that. So what would you do?
12:51 Well, if you have grandparents you have an extra pairs of eyes and hands and ears and and so on to guard your children
12:58 So that's what you want to do
13:00 So if you have a strong attachment with extended family your children have a greater chance of survival
13:06 Right, which is why we have affection for people who can't provide us any more offspring, right?
13:13 I mean we have affection for grandparents and deep love and affection for grandparents
13:19 even though our grand the grandparents can't provide a huge amount of
13:22 You know physical labor their eyes are kind of squinty and the hearing is kind of down and and they're physically frail
13:31 But why do we have affection? I mean in terms of like the next generation
13:35 Well, because they age in the protection and survival of the next generation by taking care of their offspring
13:41 Which you know really shows just how this sort of indifferent boomer grandparents have just veered so far from our general history that it's
13:48 almost unbelievable
13:50 so I would say that
13:52 we
13:53 Love our lives and our children. That's the primary attachment. The secondary attachment is
14:00 We love that which
14:02 serves
14:04 Our lives and our children and dogs and cats through their labor serve our lives and our children
14:10 Therefore we have great attachment to those and that is an evolutionary thing and listen the evolutionary thing doesn't mean that it's not a value
14:17 It doesn't mean that it's not a great experience. I had great affection for my pets when I was growing up
14:22 So when I say well, it's just biological. Well, that doesn't mean that it's not a value
14:28 I mean an orgasm is just biological. Does that mean that we talk ourselves out of that?
14:32 Pleasure. Well, of course not right great food is is, you know, really good tasting food is is biological
14:39 But that doesn't mean that we talk ourselves out of enjoying food, right? That doesn't that wouldn't make any sense, right?
14:44 So the biological pleasures are not to be sniffed at they're not to be ignored
14:49 they're not to be risen above, you know, like in this sort of a fearful of
14:54 the passions Spock like
14:56 Dedication to pure reason well, that's a life and empty of meaning and content and value and in the long run a virtue, right?
15:03 if we get rid of our emotions, then we also get rid of our love of virtue because love is an emotion and
15:10 To love virtue means that you have to be in touch with your passions
15:13 So people to tell you well the way to be rational is to overcome your emotions and to reject your emotions
15:19 They're just training you to be amoral
15:21 because if you don't have the capacity for love then you can't love virtue and
15:27 You can't love wisdom. You can't love truth. You can't love the world enough to want to help it get to a better place
15:34 so abandonment of the emotions is
15:37 Abandonment of virtue because you lose your motivation, you know, I think one of the things that when I was an actor
15:43 You would always ask these questions. Okay. Well, what's my motivation? What's my goal? What's my purpose in the scene?
15:49 What am I looking for? What am I trying to get and you know, almost all scenes have in in theater and movies is
15:56 Two characters embroiled in conflict maneuvering to get their way right so to where there's some sort of conflict
16:04 so
16:06 That explains the evolutionary cause of affection now, of course in the long run right things got to balance out. So if people
16:14 Like it is an evolutionary
16:17 maladaptation
16:19 To not care for pets or to care for pets too much, right? It's Jeanine Garofalo in some old movie
16:24 You know, it's okay to love your animals. Just don't love your animals, right? Well, that's important because if
16:29 affection for pets serves your reproductive goals in
16:34 aiding the survival of you and your children good thing if
16:37 you love your pets to the points where they become a to the point where they become a
16:43 Substitution for children. Well, then you're in your genes. This is a dead end, right?
16:47 So, you know evolution is constantly tinkering with
16:51 these things and the promotion and the internet has a lot to do with the promotion of
16:56 pet fetish
16:59 The pettish right? It's a pet fetish where a fetish is where you take
17:04 natural
17:06 healthy sexuality and bonding and attachment and affection and
17:10 You promote and provoke it to the point where it becomes counterproductive to your reproduction
17:17 so yeah cats are cute cats can be funny and
17:21 Cats are fun to pet and you know, there is a blood pressure
17:25 lowest blood pressure and stress and so on so yeah pets are fun and cool and and great and
17:30 One of the things that the internet has done whether this is, you know part of a general
17:35 Depopulation plan or it's just a drug offered to lonely people part of what the internet has done
17:42 Is by promoting a pet fetish which a lot of the internet does right?
17:47 What's the pornography and cats right and a tiny smidge of philosophy, but by promoting?
17:53 by promoting pets
17:55 to substitute for children
17:58 it turns it from a healthy affection to a
18:02 lineage ending fetish and
18:04 So the way that you promote and this is particularly true for women
18:09 Although there are of course men who say, you know, a dog is better than any woman
18:13 But in particular what you do is you if you anthropomorphize
18:19 Cats then you short-circuit the affection for cats
18:24 That's part of protecting your offspring particularly as I said from rats and mice
18:29 by anthropomorphizing cats
18:31 You cross the wires in a woman's head to the point where cats aren't there to serve her offspring, but by promoting human
18:39 imagining projecting human characteristics into cats you short-circuit the woman's brain to the point where
18:45 Cats aren't there to serve her offspring cats are her offspring
18:47 Because women are wired to feel satisfaction in
18:51 relations with human offspring and
18:54 So when you give your cat, you know three different names
18:58 then you know or chairman meow or you you talk incessantly about the
19:04 quasi-human characteristics of
19:07 Your cats. Oh, they really like doing this or he hates that or you know, you you promote all of this quasi
19:13 human consciousness into the
19:15 empty fur-brained
19:18 skull of a cat
19:20 Then you short-circuit a woman's reproductive choices and desires to the point where she feels the satisfaction
19:26 To some degree that she would normally get
19:28 From a human child. She feels it with her cat because you've anthropomorphized the cat to the point where the woman's brain
19:36 Feels like it is a cat and the same thing of course happens with pornography and so on, right?
19:44 so
19:45 The problem is if you anthropomorphize
19:48 animals to the point where you go from affection to
19:53 Love and devotion which should be reserved for your own children and your spouse and and so on
19:58 The problem is when you over invest in pets, they no longer serve the survival of your offspring
20:06 they serve
20:09 the death of your offspring or they serve the alienation of your offspring and
20:14 If you've ever had a parent who's cruel
20:18 Or you've ever seen a parent who's cruel to children but kind to pets
20:23 then the pets are used as an abusive weapon against the children and
20:29 The pet is something that alienates the children from the parent
20:36 So rather than the pets serving the children the pets serve to alienate the children or they serve as a substitute for the children
20:44 all of which
20:46 diminishes your capacity your children's capacity for
20:50 Survival, right? So whatever parents do that alienates their children
20:54 historically, this is why there's such a
20:57 there's such a taboo against parental alienation and the reason for that if I mean it's partly for the
21:04 Transmission of often toxic ideas through parents to children grandparents to grandchildren
21:09 But it also has to do with the fact that if you alienate
21:13 your parents
21:15 your children
21:17 evolutionarily speaking like historically speaking would have
21:19 Less of a chance of survival
21:22 Now they would have less of a chance of physical survival because if you don't talk to your parents
21:26 Then your parents won't take care of your children, which means your children are exposed to a lot more danger
21:31 than they would otherwise be it's number one and number two that if
21:36 You alienate your parents if you don't spend time and see your parents
21:41 Then again, we're talking evolutionarily. We're not talking sort of current current day where independence and individualism is
21:48 possible if you alienate your parents, then they will
21:54 Trash-talk you if they're bad parents, right and which is really the reason that you would alienate them
21:58 That's sort of unrelentingly corrupt and abusive. Then they will badmouth you they will interfere with your
22:04 Your children's mating prospects and they will do their best to sort of end your lineage that way
22:10 So it is a very it's a very dicey thing evolutionarily speaking
22:15 So this is sort of one of the reasons why so when people over bond with their pets
22:19 Then yeah, they will they will take the death of a pet
22:24 With the the kind of sadness that would normally befit the death of a human child because that's am for they've anthropomorphized that pet
22:30 To the point where it has become a substitute child
22:33 which
22:35 interferes with
22:37 Their capacity to have children and it also interferes with their capacity to bond with children
22:41 I mean you can't bond equally with two wildly dissimilar things and
22:45 If you bond primarily with a dog, that's a great insult to your children
22:52 Because when you say I prefer the dog to you you have less of a status to me than a pet
22:58 That's alienating to your children and it's really it's really nasty. It's really nasty
23:04 So yeah, we should have great affection for that which serves our survival and the survival of our children
23:09 But when you hear nonsense like it's my fur baby
23:12 No, it's not if you hear things like dog a dog is a man's best friend. It's like no the dog is also
23:20 Because the dog is pair bonded. The dog is just running on dopamine
23:23 So pets are also a way for a lot of people to just not grow up and deal with people
23:29 right a dog
23:32 Can't judge you morally it can't correct you morally it can't evaluate you from an ethical standpoint. Sorry
23:39 There's a bit of a redundant phrase but a dog
23:42 Will only judge
23:45 Whether you provide the dog dope in a dopamine or not
23:48 Right, so you can be a you can be a serial killer
23:52 But if you're nice to your dog, the dog loves you quote loves you, right?
23:55 So and dogs don't challenge you
23:59 They don't say a dog is never gonna say to you. Why are you wasting your life? Why aren't you married?
24:05 Why don't you have children?
24:07 Why are you working this dead-end job?
24:09 Why are you spending time with corrupt people like a dog is never gonna do that
24:15 And so people who don't want to grow up are drawn
24:18 to
24:21 pets and
24:22 Again, I'm not saying this is the only reason to have affection for pets
24:25 but pets are very often a drug that people use their delivery mechanism for dopamine and
24:32 affection that people use
24:35 Instead of growing up and taking on the real adult challenges of having a relationship with an intelligent
24:41 curious
24:43 Judgey critical person who is going to give you feedback on how well or badly you're doing an attempt to guide you towards a better
24:49 place dogs will never do that cats will never do that so it's a way of
24:53 staying
24:55 Immature by dealing with animals that have the cognitive abilities less than a baby
25:01 So there is a process of course that goes on when?
25:08 When you're in a long-term relationship, right? There's a process that goes on where you become fully human to your partner, right?
25:14 there's a certain amount of idealism and hero worship and heroine worship early on in a relationship and
25:20 As you grow and you mature
25:22 you get to see your partner as a full human being and the scales fall from your eyes and
25:28 You know, you're imperfect and they're imperfect, but you're perfect together
25:33 Now dogs don't go through don't go through that process of
25:36 Evaluating you and seeing you as a human being with your strengths and your weaknesses your virtues and your flaws
25:42 They just bond with you and are happy every assuming that you feed them and pet them. They're happy every time you come home and
25:48 You don't have to be a better person to win their love. You don't have to make any progress in life
25:53 In order to win their love, right? So a lot of people get stuck in this time loop, right?
25:59 This is this Groundhog Day time loop
26:01 where
26:03 They just don't make any progress in life, right?
26:05 They're living basically the same life at 45 that they did at 25
26:08 I mean, I know this of course because we all know people like this
26:11 But of course it seems like sometimes half the call calls I get are people who can't get to the next phase in life
26:17 Who can't get married have kids or maybe even if they're just a career person move ahead in their career
26:22 And they're just living the same life over and over again
26:25 my same life over and over again, I
26:27 mean
26:29 There are not too long ago. I was
26:32 Taking my daughter to the Science Center and the Science Center is
26:35 near where I
26:38 grew up in Canada
26:41 Dom Mills Lawrence Dom Mills and Eglinton. So it's fairly close. Don't stir and
26:45 Of course, I took my daughter to see where I grew up the the apartment building
26:52 I took her back in the neighborhoods now, of course for me
26:54 It's you know fraught with richness and depth and happiness and sadness and meaning and so on for my daughter
26:59 It's just a bunch of buildings and stuff and we we did talk about it
27:02 And she did show interest in all of that because you know, it's part of my history
27:06 So I have this sort of attachment for things that she doesn't particularly have much attachment for but I want to sort of transfer that
27:13 So she remembers that I also am a full human being and not just a father and I had a history before her and so on
27:18 but I
27:21 looked at buildings and
27:23 Of course, it's been forever since I was back in the neighborhood and I'm not in touch with anyone and haven't been for I
27:28 Don't know 15 years for 16 years from anyone from the old neighborhood
27:32 But I was absolutely certain that there were some people
27:36 Some men that I knew and maybe some women too
27:38 But some men for sure like I knew this for sure or at least a certain as you can be but these kinds of things
27:43 that
27:45 Some of my friends were still in the same neighborhood
27:47 we're still living in the same buildings that their parents were the sort of crappy matriarchal manor apartment rent control buildings and
27:54 was still roughly in the same place in their career and
27:58 We're still pursuing
28:00 the same hobbies and
28:02 We're still
28:04 Doing Dungeons and Dragons, which you know, it's fine if you're doing it with your kids
28:07 But you know if you are in your in your 40s or your 50s and you're still playing Dungeons and Dragons
28:12 It's because you're seeking in it the Dungeons and Dragons didn't prepare you for an adventure called life
28:18 It became a substitute for an adventure called life. You get your excitement from dice rolling rather than actual achievement in the world
28:24 It's like doing endless warm-up drills and never playing a sport. Like what's the point?
28:28 so we all know people who haven't made progress and
28:32 It's really and because people leave the lift these groundhog days as if times not passing and then they get this panic
28:40 They get this panic. The time is passing and what do they do?
28:44 well
28:44 that panic is there to have you it the panic is there to tell you to get started with your life to to
28:51 Take some risks to achieve to go ask the girl out to maybe have kids
28:55 You know to move on with your life to get something done with your life. This incredibly rare precious gift
29:00 It's not such a gift that it's designed to
29:03 Be wasted now wasting gifts is an insult to the glory of existence
29:10 Wasting your gifts is an insult to the glory of your existence
29:14 would you give a
29:17 million dollars of
29:20 Precious inheritance to a friend who was going to spend it on online gambling
29:25 Star Wars figurines and getting drunk. Well, no, it's a set be a waste of this precious and scarce resource called a million dollars and
29:33 the universe gives you this life if
29:36 you waste it if
29:39 you allow fear to paralyze you and
29:41 you convince yourself of progress when you are a
29:46 tapioca quicksand of
29:49 stagnation
29:50 That is the gravest sin risk something do something try something
29:55 There is no failure bigger than the avoidance of failure. There is no risk greater than the avoidance of risk
30:04 Because we're all going to die anyway, and what we get done between the here and the hereafter is
30:09 All that we can be if you hide from failure you die anyway
30:16 You just die having spread failure because you justify it like whatever we do we justify or we challenge. That's it
30:22 We have no other choice. Whatever we do we the justify or we challenge
30:26 So if you're wasting your life, you either justify it can't win don't try the systems rigged. I'm doing the right thing women are
30:31 terrible and and family is a trap and and
30:34 You know, you can't get ahead because the man runs the system like what if you're wasting your life
30:39 You would justify it and by justifying it you spread it
30:43 you become an environmental toxin that paralyzes other people or at least tries to
30:46 You become a temptation and the people who are wasting their lives will almost always put on this facade of satisfaction and happiness
30:53 so that they can lure other people into reproducing their mistakes why because misery loves company and
30:59 pets are a way for those who use them as a substitute for progress whether it's progress in a career sense or an
31:06 Intellectual sense or a family sense whatever progress Jimmy. We don't need to define that too much
31:12 We all know when life's moving forward or not
31:14 But those who use pets as a substitute for human companionship often do so because they use the pets
31:21 programmed affections as
31:24 a substitute for the dopamine called achievement
31:27 Right dopamine is the reward we get for taking calculated risks not jumping off a cliff, but you know taking calculated risks
31:34 We are frightened to ask the girl out. We asked the girl out. She says yes, we're overjoyed thrilled over the moon
31:40 Sure, I mean, that's how it should be
31:42 but if instead of
31:44 through
31:45 taking calculated challenges in life instead of through that and
31:49 Actual achievement instead of through that we get our dopamine because our dog is happy we came through the door
31:57 Well, then we're using the dog as a drug
32:01 to
32:03 consume and feast on our own potential
32:05 So it's a great danger and we can see of course that this pet thing is really being pushed and this of course is why
32:13 When people have a pet fetish, which is when you have a pet not to serve
32:17 You and your children but instead
32:20 to
32:23 Block you from reproduction. It comes out of cowardice, right? So a pet fetish comes out of a cowardice
32:30 To take rational risks in life to achieve to fail to get back up
32:34 you know the the normal striving of life, which is some success some failure some progress some regression and
32:39 Having the confidence to take on life
32:42 Because you have to have a care for the second half of your life and the second half of your life if you fail
32:46 Fundamentally, and the only failure is not trying right you understand. The only failure is not trying
32:52 So if you fail fundamentally the second half of your life
32:56 You are a misery usually usually you're a misery and a toxin
32:59 Because you have to you can't fix it, right if you failed up to the age of 40, let's say can you fix it?
33:06 Oh, well, I can think of an exception and grandma Moses only started painting when she was 70 and it's like
33:10 That's the exception that proves the rule
33:13 That's the exception that proves the rule. I
33:15 Don't know like for men. Let's talk about the wall for women. Let's talk about the wall for women. Oh, she's 40
33:22 So sexual market value plummets and eggs are dino eggs, and I get all of that
33:28 And of course I've talked about all of that, you know, there's a wall for men, too, right?
33:31 That if you're a failure in your late 30s the odds of you becoming successful are virtually zero
33:36 That doesn't mean you shouldn't try it doesn't mean you shouldn't you could become more successful. You should shake off things
33:42 But if you've wasted almost a quarter century of adult time the odds of you catching up
33:50 Azira to people who've tried and right and again
33:54 We can always think of people who you know, they didn't get their first
33:57 I remember reading about I can't remember his name, of course
34:00 but it was some guy who became a golf pro and he was working as a
34:04 Foreman or office manager in a factory or something and people were like man, you're really good at golf
34:08 You should go and do this golf thing and he's like, well, maybe maybe maybe and he ended up doing it
34:13 But of course he'd been playing golf for many many many years. So he was ready, right?
34:17 I mean I kind of burst onto the scene so to speak in
34:21 my
34:23 Late 30s, but I've been doing philosophy for 20 years already. I got my education
34:28 I had learned enough about the business world to know how to run a podcast effectively
34:33 So, you know, I was I was ready the success that I had didn't come out of nowhere
34:37 it came out of having taken a lot of rational calculated risks in the past and
34:44 failing and learning and progressing and achieving
34:47 so men have a wall - and
34:50 If a woman if she doesn't have kids
34:52 She's likely to face regret for the last 40 years of her life. And if a man wastes his youth and early middle age
34:57 Then he's going to face regret now regret quickly turns into justification
35:02 people can't live with the pain of having messed up their lives they can't live with that and
35:07 So a survival mechanism becomes justification. I
35:12 Haven't failed I'm wise
35:14 to the system I
35:17 Haven't failed. I've just accepted the fact that nobody will let me succeed and then of course because
35:23 You justify you spread you you talk about it with others
35:28 You talk about it particularly with the young because people who are like middle-aged failures
35:33 It's really really important for young people not to hang out with middle-aged failures because they will transfer that failure with everything in their heart
35:39 Mind body and what remains of their soul. So
35:42 for men
35:44 It's really really tough
35:46 Particularly career-wise. It's a little bit different with romance, but particularly career-wise
35:51 Where you are when you're 40
35:54 For the most part is where you're gonna be
35:57 Now it doesn't mean that that's where you stay. Let's say you get 10% better every year. That's likely to continue
36:03 It may even accelerate but if you work in the same job at 40 that you were at 25
36:08 Then you have failed to take the necessary risks and do the necessary work
36:13 You know, I spent quite some time earlier my business career
36:18 floundering around
36:20 Trying to figure out how to do things because I didn't have any business expertise
36:24 In the family and I was a self-taught coder and so yeah
36:28 And I didn't have any sales experience or X access to sales expertise really so or marketing
36:34 So I just really had to figure these things out for myself. There was a lot of discomfort involved in that
36:39 so
36:40 What's the alternative?
36:42 You know you you're gonna suffer either way. So oh there was discomfort in me trying to figure out the business world
36:47 There was discomfort in me trying to figure out the podcasting world, although less because already had the business world thing down
36:52 So there's discomfort. So, okay. So what's the option? There's discomfort in asking the girl out, but there's even more discomfort in being
36:59 You know lonely masturbation addict for the rest of your natural life, right?
37:04 I mean that there's discomfort and going to the gym, but there's more discomfort in having bad back bad joints bad knees
37:09 Fats, you know like that this discomfort like you just choose all you do in life is you choose your discomforts?
37:16 But the idea there's no discomfort. So you say well, it's uncomfortable for me to
37:20 Go to night school learn something new and try and get a new job in a new field. That's uncomfortable for me
37:26 It's like okay. Sure. I get that so compared to what?
37:29 Compared to stagnating and rotting in the same job for 40 years. That's uncomfortable, too
37:34 And yeah, really the people are so men have the wall as well, which is the wall of success
37:40 and again, that's more focused around career than
37:42 romance, but
37:45 The wall is real for both sexes and men love to talk about the wall for women for reasons of I mean
37:52 There's lots of complex reasons for all of that and so get into that another time
37:55 But they don't as much like to talk about
37:59 the wall
38:00 for
38:02 men
38:03 Which is I mean and I know this is a hiring manager. I was again hiring. I'm hired
38:07 interviewed a thousand people hired a hundred people mostly successfully so I know what I'm looking for and
38:14 If somebody had stagnated I would know that they had little potential like if some if some 40 year old guy
38:23 Came to me for a job as a junior programmer and he'd been in software for a long time. I would view him as
38:29 unhirable
38:32 Because if he was still a junior programmer
38:34 It would mean that he didn't have any particular ambition and what that meant is that
38:38 He would then be toxic in spreading that lack of ambition to others because you're not just hiring for the position
38:45 You're hiring for the whole team
38:47 because he was almost certain to try and he couldn't encourage the ambitions of
38:53 Younger programmers because he hadn't pursued any ambitions himself
38:57 Anyway, so it's a bit of a tangent, but I just wanted to point out that yeah
39:01 There is the wall for men and for women and for men a lot of times it is
39:07 they're drawn to
39:09 Men who failed in life are often drawn to hang around younger people and spread that failure because it's a complete agony
39:17 to look at your life and say I
39:19 Failed I didn't take especially when it's - when it's too late. All you can do is justify like when it's too late
39:26 All you can do is
39:28 justify
39:29 And so I saw this video was it yesterday?
39:31 It's a 61 year old woman on social media talking about how she's completely effing thrilled that she never had kids
39:38 She gets to sleep in she gets to go to concerts. She gets to do this that and the other
39:43 but
39:45 She can't I and it's rare. It's rare to see a woman
39:50 Let's say who's 60 who says she bitterly regrets not having children because can't process it. I mean that way
39:56 Self-destruction lies. There's almost like if you can't fix a
40:00 Lack of courage in your life. You have to justify it because the alternative probably I would imagine is
40:06 suicidal thoughts
40:09 Because the colossal loss of the gift that you were given
40:12 Like the couple of pounds of wetware that is the greatest glory in the universe and you wasted it
40:17 To inherit a billion dollars and blow it on nothing and have nothing to show for it
40:23 I mean, how can you I don't know how people process that kind of regret and because I don't know how people process that kind
40:29 Of regret I've always tried to take rational risks rationally calculated risks
40:34 I mean even D platforming was the rationally calculated risk, which is I didn't want to disappear in the future by
40:40 Flourishing in the present because flourishing in the present means lying
40:43 so
40:45 Yeah pets pets are a great boon and a great temptation like food right food is necessary, but it's easy to abuse
40:52 So I suppose the same thing is true of exercise now the last thing I'll touch on here and we can do this fairly briefly
40:58 is babies
41:00 Babies. Well if love is our involuntary response to virtue, but babies can't be virtuous. Does that mean we can't love babies?
41:09 but
41:10 That's a category error. So for instance, I love my wife because she's virtuous
41:16 When she is sleeping she is not virtuous. She's asleep
41:20 Dreaming of me. I'm sure
41:23 Right. So if I say well, I love my wife because of her virtues. Well when she's sleeping
41:27 She's not performing virtuous actions. Does that mean that I don't love her?
41:34 No, I mean if you love your wife and you see her sleeping
41:37 It's like great tenderness and you want to kiss her on the forehead, but you don't want to wake her up
41:41 But you want to arrange her pillow so she's more comfortable, but you don't want to disturb her and there's great affection in all of that
41:45 If I'm playing a sport with my wife, I suppose there's virtue even in sport, you know being a good
41:54 loser and encouragement plus a little trash talk very sexy, but
41:59 Is she virtuous when she's?
42:03 Not actively engaged in promoting or acting in a virtuous manner. Well, no, neither am I neither is anyone right?
42:09 so
42:11 When I say I love my wife because of her virtues am I saying that I only love my wife in the act of her
42:19 Being morally courageous or having a particular kind of virtue that's manifesting in the moment. Well, no
42:25 That's like saying well, I'm healthy because I exercise
42:31 so I exercise about eight hours a week and
42:33 That's not all you know weights and cardio and so on a lot of that is sort of the brisk walking that are doing call-in
42:40 Shows and so on so I exercise about eight hours a week
42:43 Which is a small fraction of the week
42:47 Right. So if I say I'm healthy because I exercise and then people say well you're sitting on the couch
42:57 Therefore you're not healthy because you're not exercising
43:00 Right. So saying I'm healthy because I'm because I exercise is
43:05 Not to say that I'm only healthy in the act of exercising
43:10 In fact, if I exercised all the time, I would be unhealthy because I would injure myself, right?
43:14 So do you follow this?
43:17 If I say I eat because I'm hungry
43:21 That's not to say
43:23 That I'm hungry every time I'm not eating because after you eat
43:28 There is a period of satisfaction of satiety, right? I
43:32 Drink water because I'm thirsty
43:35 But that doesn't mean that I'm thirsty every time I'm not actively drinking water
43:40 so love and health and satiety and so on is
43:44 Something that is part of a continuum that involves it not being there because inevitably it won't be there
43:53 Right after you eat you don't want to eat again for a while
43:56 After you exercise you gain the health benefits
43:59 When you're not exercising, in fact, you would gain a health loss gain the loss
44:04 You know what? I mean, it lose health benefits if you kept exercising because you'd injure yourself. It's some tendon thing some
44:09 RSI some carpal tunnel what pulled muscles, whatever, right?
44:14 moral courage is good
44:17 excess moral courage is
44:20 Foolhardy right? That's the old Aristotelian thing a deficiency of courage is cowardice and excess of courage is foolhardiness
44:26 neither are to be admired a
44:28 deficiency of anger is
44:30 spinelessness and excess of anger is
44:32 Rage and abuse you got to find a balance, right?
44:37 So at a time when I see
44:40 People I love being morally courageous. I love them for that
44:47 Moral courage, but that doesn't mean I don't love them where they're not being morally courageous because you can't be morally courageous 24/7
44:54 So loving someone for an action
44:58 Doesn't mean you don't love them when they're not performing that action. I
45:03 Mean there are other things like I don't really think about it, but I suppose I love my wife for her
45:09 Monogamy a man loves his wife for her monogamy if she breaks that monogamy and has an affair then he would not love her
45:16 For that and and so on right so I get but we're talking about, you know, general positive attributes, right?
45:22 In the same way I have self-respect for moral things that I do in the world
45:28 but if
45:30 I'm I don't know sitting playing some mindless video game because my brain is tired from philosophy. That doesn't mean I now have self-contempt
45:38 Because there's a continuity and there's a bell curve with these kinds of things
45:44 So hopefully this makes I love my wife for her virtues, but that doesn't mean I don't love her when she's not actively being virtuous
45:51 Right, if we're just sitting cuddling and watching a movie
45:55 Is she being virtuous?
45:57 No, I don't think that would be in that category. Does that mean I don't love her in that moment?
46:04 Of course not right there's a continuity. So with regards to babies
46:08 We have a very strong attachment to them. That's biological in nature, which doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it or it's bad
46:14 Or it's not real or it's the that which is hardwired into us is very real
46:19 You know hunger is hardwired into us. It's very real sexual desire hardwired into us
46:23 It's very real thirst hardwired into us very real being tired hardwired into us. This is not unreal. These are not bad
46:30 These are not negative right? So the attachments that we have for our babies the delight in life
46:36 They come from a philosophical place. They come from a biochemical place a biological place an evolutionary place
46:42 It's all the lovely soup of attachment
46:44 now
46:46 taking joy in life is
46:49 A beautiful thing and it is part of the philosophical optimism. That is the foundation of virtue
46:55 Despair is the enemy of virtue because despair says virtue is not worth it
47:01 Which is why when virtue is translated to the political realm
47:04 It's kind of demonic in a way because there's very little that you can change in effect if anything
47:09 Therefore virtue becomes pointless and it becomes kind of a grift a lot of times not always
47:13 Whereas what I was talking about last night in the show that we have
47:17 Morality that is exercisable in our own personal lives at all times
47:22 That's something you can act on right? So the purpose of corruption is to move your
47:28 sense of virtue to things which you cannot change and thereby inflict you with the sin of despair and
47:33 Have you avoid virtue and they're in the in the future as being sort of pointless and useless, right?
47:40 So, I mean I I remember the sort of back in the day with Ron Paul love Ron Paul
47:45 But you know, he was never gonna be president
47:47 He was he was never gonna be president a Trump had a shot
47:49 But Ron Paul was never gonna be president and you know, maybe it's for spreading the ideas and so on
47:54 But those people who said well, here's the path, you know, the revolution. Here's the path to Ron Paul becoming president
48:00 It's like no, that's not true. That's that's not a thing that can happen
48:03 That's just math
48:06 so
48:07 with regards to babies if
48:09 you
48:11 you have a very strong attachment to your baby is it is it the refined love of
48:17 Moral achievement and moral courage no because they're a baby
48:23 So you have a bond you have a love of life and what you have you have a love of potential
48:30 because the baby and in particular through your love the baby can become a
48:35 Moral agent can grow to become a moral agent in the world
48:39 Right. I mean if you were to imagine let's just say let's just create some fantasy scenario, right?
48:45 So if you had a baby
48:48 Again, this is completely imaginary. I don't think it would ever happen even in a theoretical sense
48:53 but let's just put this out as a mind mind experiment if you had a baby and
48:57 You knew for sure that baby was growing it was going to grow up to be a mass murderer
49:02 Right, would you feel the same level of effect of affection towards your baby? Well, probably not
49:07 I mean, I would assume almost certainly not
49:10 because the potential for
49:12 The baby being an addition to moral virtue and courage within the world would not be there
49:17 In fact, your baby would grow up to be an an evil doing a great evil doing mass murderer, right?
49:23 So would you so what you love in your baby is of course the attachment the life the laughter the bonding the the cuddling and
49:31 You love the potential in your baby
49:35 That is manifested by the love of them as an infant, right?
49:40 So a baby has a stronger chance of being virtuous if the baby is loved as a baby, right?
49:46 But what are you loving? Well, you love virtue and therefore you love your baby because that's the best way for your baby to grow up
49:52 To be virtuous. Does that make sense?
49:54 if you love virtue, then your love of your baby is
49:59 The greatest chance for virtue to grow and spread in the world. I
50:02 Mean to take a sort of silly example
50:05 Nobody loves fertilizer
50:07 but we love food and we need food and
50:09 Fertilizer is a great way to ensure we get adequate food because it's very good for the growth of crops
50:16 right, I
50:17 Don't love editing audio and video
50:19 But if I don't do that, then my shows don't get out into the world
50:25 right
50:27 This is like my probably ninth microphone for doing these things. I think I finally found a sweet spot of portability and
50:33 Quality do I love shopping for microphones?
50:36 Not really, but I do love having high quality source audio for the production of shows and I also don't like having to sit in
50:42 the studio
50:44 Hunched over like a question mark every time I want to record because the brain works better when you're moving
50:49 Right your mind works better
50:51 When you're moving I learned this sort of many many years ago with a guy I was in business with who'd say
50:56 Oh, we've got a meeting
50:57 Let's go for a walk and we'd have much better meetings shorter meetings more productive meetings
51:01 When we would go for a walk rather than when people would sit around a conference table
51:04 Snacking on doughnuts and staring off into space. This is even before people were on their phones and
51:10 I mean you can look up the science if you're in motion your brain is doing better
51:14 So it's better for the show that I'm moving around but it's tougher for audio quality recording
51:18 So I've tried to find a sweet spot for that for many years. I
51:21 Also don't want to have a microphone that I hold up
51:24 Because for me at least if I'm doing a show for an hour and I'm holding up a microphone that's tough on my shoulders
51:30 It's tough like I end up with a cramps in my shoulders or you know little discomfort to my shoulders
51:36 Because I'm holding up a microphone so I have to have a headset
51:38 But sometimes the headsets clamp on your ears so much that every time you talk it hums in your ears
51:43 which I don't think is great and kind of distracting and
51:45 so on right
51:47 so
51:49 We love the potential we love virtue and loving our babies is the best way to increase and improve virtue in the world
51:57 so
51:59 That's why
52:01 loving a
52:02 baby
52:04 Produces virtue which is what we love we also by loving a baby
52:08 We produce a child who acts virtuously which means that we're even more likely to love our child
52:13 Because the child is acting in a virtuous manner
52:16 Now no amount of loving a dog will make that dog virtuous because dogs are not capable of virtue because they cannot compare proposed
52:24 actions to ideal standards
52:26 No amount of loving a cat or a hamster or a horse or a cow will ever produce
52:31 One additional scrap of virtue in the world
52:33 I guess if you take care of your cows
52:35 Then you get milk to feed children so the children can become virtuous so maybe a sort of a means to an end
52:40 But loving children produces virtue
52:42 loving dogs does not
52:45 loving cats does not and
52:47 Loving children is the best way to give them a base of happiness and attachment and respect to emulate your behavior
52:53 Right if you're a virtuous person, then you're gonna show obviously affection towards your babies
52:57 You're gonna show love towards your babies say ah yes, but the babies aren't virtuous
53:01 yeah, but I love my wife and she's sleeping and I love the potential in virtue of my children and
53:06 That love right if you have affection with your children
53:10 They respect you they enjoy your company. They look up to you. Then it's the best chance to transfer your virtues to them
53:18 right, I
53:20 mean
53:21 We don't love the medicine. We don't love the cure. We love life and the medicine of the cure serves life
53:27 We love virtue
53:29 Therefore we love our children
53:31 both for the fact that they have life and the fact that they have developing minds and the fact that they just develop enormously rapidly and
53:38 the fact that we love virtue and therefore want to spread virtue is why we have children to a large degree and
53:43 Also why we love children because loving children is the best way to have them grow into virtuous people and make the world a better place
53:48 So I hope that that answers the question. I really do appreciate
53:51 It's a great question and keep them coming man free domain locals calm post them
53:55 You don't have to wait for the invite. Just post them away. I'm happy to answer. Thanks a mil everyone
54:00 So much lots of love. I'll talk to you soon. Bye