Will Sunderland now appoint a new head coach? Your questions after Sunderland 1-5 Blackburn Rovers
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00:00 Hello and welcome to the latest edition of On The Whistle with me Phil Smith and James
00:15 Copley. Spring is over, Sunderland won a game, we had two days of sunny weather, it's raining
00:21 again, it's grey, it's miserable and Sunderland have lost 5-1. So hope you enjoyed spring,
00:25 now it's back to reality. That was a pretty shocking afternoon. Do you know what, it's
00:31 interesting because obviously we've talked loads in these exact seats about all the reasons
00:37 why the season's unravelled. The decision to sack Tony Mowbray, the lack of depth in
00:41 the squad, the loss of the experience that would have helped on afternoons like this.
00:46 I think all those factors are still relevant and right but what I would say as well is
00:51 that I haven't said this very often at all over the last two years, is that what happened
00:55 on the pitch I just thought was well thought today. I thought Mike Dodd said he slightly
00:59 disagreed with me when I said that I thought Blackburn wanted it a lot more but I don't
01:03 think there's any doubt that there was more intensity from Blackburn, they broke at speed,
01:07 they got back in numbers. I thought that was a really unacceptable performance today and
01:12 that doesn't take away from any of the structural factors we've talked about, the experience,
01:16 the squad building, the lack of depth but I do also think sometimes you've just got
01:19 to say that you need more. And I've not said that a lot about these players who I think
01:23 have been fantastic in the main and generally speaking put it all on the line week in week
01:28 out but I thought this was short today, what did you think?
01:30 I think these two games really sum up where Sunderland are at the moment. So against Cardiff
01:35 they were okay but they got the first goal, they got the look with the penalty and then
01:39 they looked to boss it. Cardiff's heads dropped and that was it, Sunderland managed to take
01:43 control of the game. Sunderland I think, and this may be a really unpopular Sunderland
01:48 opinion, played alright for 20 minutes today.
01:50 20 minutes they were okay, yeah.
01:51 We got a bad piece of luck, Robert slips, Ekwer and O9 should do better. Schmoditz who
01:56 was absolutely superb scores a goal and then he scores another one a couple of minutes
01:59 later. Sunderland completely go under after that which I think is a mentality thing but
02:05 I am reticent to criticise these players too much because the average age of that squad
02:10 is really, really, really low. Yes, this experience hopefully will help them in the long run.
02:15 You could argue they've been hung out to dry by management and Mike Dodds as well as a
02:19 really inexperienced young head coach who hasn't a lot of experience in the job. So
02:23 I am really resident to sort of scream blue murder but elements of that performance, you
02:30 are right in the second half, was unacceptable and that for me is worrying what you said.
02:34 This team have given us some great moments, they do generally fight but it just seemed
02:39 like they wiltered which is a massive shame and it's what we've been saying for a long
02:43 time actually. You do have to be careful that you don't overexpose young players and you
02:48 end up ruining them. There's nobody that can't tell me that a Lyndon Guterr, Danny
02:52 Batho and Alex Pritchard might not have changed the result because you don't know but it could
02:56 have helped those young players get through some of those tricky moments. Yes, I agree
02:59 and like I say I'm not taking it for granted that we've talked about it for weeks but I
03:02 just felt today it felt slightly different to me. It did, you're right, it did. But I
03:06 think you're absolutely right. But I think that as well just to add to that, it's a group
03:09 that completely drained and knackered. The drama this season, the managerial changes,
03:15 the transfer stuff, everything that happens at Sunderland, the injuries, the having to
03:19 play loads of games, the ups, the downs, I'm not surprised. No, I agree with that totally.
03:25 Let's get into some of your questions. Steve says resign. Now I don't know if that's aimed
03:31 at me and you or if it's aimed at anyone. I've been thinking about that for a long time
03:35 to be honest. If it's aimed at us, fair enough. You're not the first, you won't be the last,
03:39 after today no arguments from us. We'll finish the video at least. Rich, if you're watching
03:44 this you can take this as my resignation. Someone else says why Phil, why? Come on,
03:49 you know I can't answer that. All I can say is we're all in this together to the bitter
03:52 end come what may and nobody's getting out of it that easily. Can I just say in the 66th
03:57 minute that was brilliant for Tom Lynn by the way. Sunderland losing but still came
04:01 together. That's what the club's about and I think it's just worth mentioning. Wrote
04:05 about Sunderland, had work in the Echo as well as I Love Supreme. It meant a lot to
04:09 a lot of people. I didn't know personally but the tributes were beautiful and I think
04:13 that's definitely something that was good. The one positive of the day. Tom Huntley says
04:19 is it acceptable for KLD to keep avoiding scrutiny? He says what was his reason for
04:23 not turning up to the fans meeting which was earlier this month. People would have seen
04:26 the minutes and you can catch it on the Sunderland Echo website. And then give the board the
04:30 briefing that decisions for football side are based on direction from the top. I think
04:34 this is a really good question and I do feel like the way the season's unravelled. I think
04:39 obviously we've heard from Kirill sort of promoting the stadium changes. The money that's
04:45 going to be invested in the stadium this summer which is more than entitled to do and which
04:48 is more than fair enough. And is objectively good. And is objectively good. This result
04:52 has not changed that. Albeit the stadium had got into a state of disrepair where it badly
04:56 needs that. But I do think that there is going to need to be some accountability this summer
05:03 about the way the season's unravelled. That is mostly on the football side. The decision
05:07 to remove Tony Mowbray and not be bringing someone of a higher calibre. The January window
05:13 which has not improved the squad. And that's not a dig on those players. Some of them are
05:17 very young. Some of them could be good next season. But a January window that did not
05:21 in any way, shape or form address the obvious issues in this team that we could all see.
05:25 Nor really did this summer. And I'm going to chuck a couple of things into one. I've
05:28 had loads of comments about Christian Speightman. Whether he should stay. Whether he should
05:31 go. Totally fair to ask that question because ultimately he is responsible for the football
05:36 in operation at the Football Club. And the season's unravelled badly. Michael Beale
05:40 ultimately is accountable for that decision. It was the wrong decision. It was a decision
05:44 that really derailed the season. And undid a lot of positivity. But I do ultimately think
05:49 and can't stress enough that Sunderland operate within a budget and a strategy that is set
05:54 from the board level. And that board level ultimately comes from the ownership. So the
05:58 sort of extremities that we've seen in the strategy this season ultimately stem from
06:02 the ownership. And I think Christian comes out and essentially kind of, he speaks with
06:08 us fairly often. And he kind of takes it on the chin and he defends it to the hilt. Because
06:14 ultimately he's employed by the owner. But at some point I think the owner is going to
06:19 have to show a little bit of accountability. And I think fans need to hear from him this
06:24 summer. Whether it's when a new manager's appointment. Whenever it may be. I think they
06:28 need to hear from him. I think he needs to try and a) explain what's going on. And b)
06:34 explain how he's going to try and put it right. And there's loads of good things that have
06:37 happened. I loved watching that team on Good Friday. The football was fantastic. So many
06:45 amazing moments since the takeover happened. I'm not trying to rewrite history and say
06:49 the club's not progressed. You only have to look at the value of this squad, even on an
06:53 afternoon like this one, compared to a few years ago. The thing I always look to him
06:57 for, split balling slightly here, I always look to the academy and the state that's in.
07:01 It is in a really, really good state. There's some really good youngsters coming through.
07:05 But one thing I've thought about recently in terms of Sunderland's investment generally
07:08 in the playing squad. What is the goal of that? Is the goal of it just to develop players,
07:12 play them and then sell them? Or is the goal to move the club forward with those players?
07:16 Yes, if you have to sell one or two, fair enough. But what are we doing here?
07:20 What Spiegelman has always said is, we are building a team to get promoted. On the odd
07:26 occasion players will outpace us and we will use that to reinvest in the squad and move
07:31 forward. Well, we've seen this summer that what they're currently doing, which I think
07:34 over the last couple of windows, an even more extreme version of the strategy has not worked
07:39 and we need to see that corrected.
07:40 And it's been really bad messaging as well because at no point did anybody come out and
07:44 say, in temporary expectations, and say, 'Look, we overperformed. We're not maybe expecting
07:48 to be in the playoffs again. That's okay.' Maybe if he had elanced that ball, I'm not
07:52 saying everybody would have been happy with that. People would have said that that showed
07:55 a lack of ambition. But if he had elanced that ball early and said, 'This is what we'll
07:58 go on. This is what we're doing.' But ultimately, he sacked Tony Mowbray when he was just outside
08:02 the playoffs.
08:03 And if the answer is that they felt that they could achieve what they did last season, then
08:06 that was the expectation. Then fair enough, but there needs to be a level of realism about
08:10 the decisions that have then made that so much more difficult. Mowbray and January,
08:14 for me, are the two things. You say what you like. Some of them were in an okay position
08:18 at the point in which they joined. And I know they played badly in a couple of games, but
08:21 they were in an okay position at the time. This season was absolutely not destined to
08:26 finish where it is now. Absolutely not.
08:28 And I love that some of the members of this group, of this team, they've given me some
08:31 great moments. I think it's brilliant. I love prioritising youth. I do think it's class.
08:35 And I like thinking outside of the box, but the cold, hard facts are that the average
08:39 age of a championship promotion squad, which apparently is where some of them want to be,
08:42 is 29 or thereabouts. Ours is way off that at the moment. That's not to say that we could
08:46 get an average age of a squad that's 29 and not automatically go up, but it does serve
08:50 to illustrate.
08:51 And listen, we've seen some of them have, I promise, experienced these loves and have
08:55 been dreadful. It's a balance.
08:56 It does serve to illustrate that we do need something along the line.
08:59 It's a balance. It's a balance. Okay, we've got two more questions.
09:03 I'm bringing a lot of questions in as one, because a lot of you understand we have similar
09:06 thoughts after that. So the main one, really, a lot of people are asking is, does someone
09:10 need to bring someone in now? I have mixed feelings about this. If your preferred candidate
09:15 is out of work, then go and get them.
09:19 I'm still, even though that was one of the worst performances I've watched in a long
09:23 time, certainly worst of the season, I would still hate the idea of them panicking and
09:28 bringing in the wrong person again, just because they're available now.
09:31 I would rather go through a bit more pain over the next few weeks to get the right person
09:35 for next season. However, if the right person is available now, I suppose there's a risk
09:40 you can come in and say there's a risk of putting them on the back foot.
09:43 But with the players coming back, I do think someone should be able to come in and get
09:48 a tune to an extent out of these players. So my honest answer to that is, I don't see
09:53 the point in waiting if the right candidate is available now.
09:56 If they've identified someone who they think is not available right now and is going to
09:59 be available in the summer, I'm still inclined to say, let's wait.
10:03 It's a huge appointment.
10:05 They're going to wait, they can't do it now. I mean, I think, and you'll probably come
10:10 with this, but the more broader, interesting question is when that person comes in, can
10:14 he bring his own people with him and do the people at the club now stay?
10:18 How does that dynamic actually work?
10:20 It's interesting, isn't it? Because obviously, Steven was asked this question at the Transcollective
10:24 meeting and he said, yes, they could bring someone in. Mike Dodds was asked about it
10:27 in his press conference and to be fair, he said, well, as far as he understood, Mick
10:31 Beale was going to bring someone in and was allowed to bring someone in.
10:33 Dodds didn't say this, but I'm saying it for you. It just wasn't there long enough for
10:38 it to happen.
10:39 Right, right.
10:40 So the plan was different.
10:41 It's a different experience for someone to bring in, but there is that dynamic in terms
10:44 of how senior is that role that you bring in?
10:47 Absolutely.
10:48 What is the dynamics of the coaching group? So I think it's a really fair question.
10:52 And just from Mike Dodds's point of view as well, I know Sunderland fans won't be too
10:56 happy with him at the moment and that's fair enough.
10:58 He does strike me as a very nice man working very hard to be honest, being put in a very
11:01 difficult position.
11:02 But then in the summer, he then goes down to doing something that he was doing before
11:06 having tasted it.
11:08 There's dynamic shift in his way that could be disruptive at the club.
11:11 I'm not sure what the answer is to that.
11:12 I'm not even sure what the question is.
11:14 It's a bit of a mess really.
11:16 They've backed themselves fully into this corner.
11:18 Again, not necessarily Mike Dodds's fault.
11:20 I think today is on Mike Dodds.
11:21 The position he's been put in is a really, really difficult one.
11:24 Today is on Mike Dodds, but he was given a really, really, really difficult job.
11:29 As we keep going back to, everything comes from going for more break for Beale.
11:32 It didn't work.
11:33 Backed him into a corner with Dodds.
11:35 The reason they didn't make Dodds interim for the rest of the season is because they
11:38 feared exactly this scenario whereby injuries, whatever the season, and they left Mike in
11:44 an almost impossible position.
11:45 There was no better time to make Mike Dodds interim head coach after beating Leeds and
11:49 West Brom.
11:50 Obviously, they had the loss against Bristol.
11:51 They knew this could happen and that's why they didn't want to do it, but because they
11:54 meant bungled what happened next so dramatically, they couldn't make that anyway.
11:58 The last one, just loads of you asking about the midfield blend, and I approach it with
12:02 a little bit of trepidation because I think it is totally wrong to single out any individual
12:07 or any part of the pitch after today's game because nobody and no part of the pitch was
12:11 anywhere up to standard.
12:12 The reason I bring it up is to say two things.
12:15 One was that Ecwert and Neil both had really poor games today.
12:19 They didn't the other day, though.
12:21 But they didn't the other day.
12:22 Again, when we go back to young players who have had peaks and troughs, especially over
12:27 a three-day period, the one thing I would say is it is another game where some of them
12:32 are just being carved open on the counter-attack over and over and over again.
12:36 How many times do we have to watch them get caught in against a low mid-block, over-commit
12:42 and then just get cut apart on the counter-attack because it's not negative to play a good holder
12:47 midfielder.
12:48 It frustrates me so much.
12:50 It is not negative to play a good holder midfielder.
12:52 It would have been so hard, and I understand completely what you're saying, but it would
12:55 have been so hard after Neil, Ecwert and Aushish did so well to drop one of their marks.
13:00 I'm not even saying that.
13:01 I'm not even saying you should have dropped them one day.
13:03 I'm just saying more widely, we are watching so many home games this year, almost as many
13:09 as they lost in the Championship relegation.
13:11 And it's the same thing every time.
13:12 It's in set-pieces, which I understand set-pieces is difficult if you have a young technical
13:16 team.
13:17 Teams might have the advantage of you in set-pieces.
13:19 I understand that's a sort of a balance reward, and I totally get that.
13:23 But there is to me just this massive structural issue, especially at home, because the onus
13:29 is on you to get on the front foot right yourself and win the game.
13:32 And they're just so vulnerable at the counter-attack.
13:33 And I understand there's games where they don't need a specialist holder midfielder,
13:36 where they need two midfielders of real technical quality walking teams up to play brave passes.
13:41 We're so invited that Neil and Ecwert can play together and can succeed.
13:44 But over a 46-game season, you need some balance.
13:47 And it's a variety of options as well.
13:49 It's not like we've not seen a team do that.
13:51 Sit in, defend hard, defend their box, and then break the numbers and flood the box.
13:55 And it just frustrates me so much because I feel like we've asked so many times people
14:00 at the club about why they're not signing a holder midfielder, and nobody can really
14:03 answer it directly.
14:04 But the thing we kind of get back is almost that it seems a little bit negative, and they're
14:08 trying to evolve the playing style away from that.
14:10 That's fine.
14:11 Manchester City play with a holder midfielder at times.
14:13 Yeah, and maybe that's unfair, but that is also because the question's never really been
14:17 answered directly.
14:18 Do you know what I mean?
14:19 But I just think it's something that please do it in summer.
14:21 Please.
14:22 I'm not trying to give this group an out or anything like that.
14:24 It means I'm angry, you're angry, everybody's angry, we're upset we've lost 5-1 at home.
14:28 I think it's only the third time we've lost or conceded five goals at the Stadium of Light.
14:32 The other one was Blackburn, the other one was Coventry a couple of seasons ago.
14:36 And I understand we're going deep into things and stuff like that, but it is two games in
14:41 48 hours.
14:42 I know that's not necessarily an excuse, but with the small nature of this squad, the way
14:47 it's been built, I can sort of throw that in as well.
14:50 I am not trying to justify anything that's happened.
14:52 You can understand why it happens.
14:53 I'm just trying to draw out these common themes in a way, because they are common themes.
14:57 The Hull to midfield, the Stryker, we haven't talked about the Stryker, the small playing
15:00 squad, the young playing squad.
15:01 These are themes that have been there for a while.
15:03 The massively frustrating thing is, and I think that's what's contributing towards these
15:06 sack the board comments and stuff like that, is that they've been going on now for 18 months.
15:11 And that's where the frustration lies for a lot of people.
15:13 And that's fair enough.
15:14 That's fair enough.
15:15 That's enough, isn't it?
15:16 That was a nice rant.
15:17 We've all had enough, haven't we?
15:18 We've all had enough.
15:19 We've talked about Blackburn, we've faced Thunder 1, so let's go to the pub.
15:22 Thanks for watching, everyone.
15:23 Cheers.
15:23 Cheers.
15:24 [kiss]
15:25 [BLANK_AUDIO]