Patriots Free Agency TRUE or FALSE w/ Jeff Howe | Pats Interference
The Athletic's NFL National Insider Jeff Howe returns to run down whether seven Patriots free agency statements are true or false and discuss initial impressions of the Jerod Mayo-Eliot Wolf regime.
You can also listen and Subscribe to Pats Interference on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, and at CLNSMedia.com two times a week!
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You can also listen and Subscribe to Pats Interference on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, and at CLNSMedia.com two times a week!
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Football season may be over, but the action on the floor is heating up. Whether it’s Tournament Season or the fight for playoff homecourt, there’s no shortage of high stakes basketball moments this time of year. Quick withdrawals, easy gameplay and an enormous selection of players and stat types are what make PrizePicks the #1 daily fantasy sports app!
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00:00:00 [MUSIC]
00:00:10 So we are gonna make podcast history here today and
00:00:15 it is the most boring possible type of podcast history.
00:00:18 I'm gonna have our guest Jeff Howe, National NFL Insider for
00:00:21 the Athletics sit for five minutes in silence while I do an intro.
00:00:25 Jeff, are you ready?
00:00:26 >> Can't wait.
00:00:27 >> Very good.
00:00:28 All right, well look, it's mid March, we're all doing some form of spring
00:00:31 cleaning, so I needed to update some folks on some news around the podcast,
00:00:34 because I tweeted this out on Friday.
00:00:37 I have a new YouTube channel.
00:00:38 This is not anything particularly special, because look,
00:00:41 anyone can create a YouTube channel if we're being honest.
00:00:44 But what will be special about this channel is you can not only find every
00:00:47 single episode of Pats Interference, you can find new draft content.
00:00:50 I will have them on that channel.
00:00:52 But plus a new YouTube exclusive segment to this podcast,
00:00:57 which Jeff is gonna debut with me here today.
00:01:00 It's called Five Off the Field.
00:01:02 More on that in a second.
00:01:03 In the meantime, you can find interviews with Kendrick Bourne,
00:01:05 Devin McCourty, Mike Giardi, I would pass on that one.
00:01:08 And Aaron Schatz talking about everything that's been recent and
00:01:11 topical and anywhere kind of tangential to the Patriots over the last two,
00:01:16 three weeks.
00:01:17 Now, Five Off the Field, this is going to be a part of the podcast that if you
00:01:21 are watching on YouTube, all you have to do is go to my channel and then click and
00:01:25 find this separate segment called Five Off the Field.
00:01:27 Where we will be talking with the same guest who just talked everything about
00:01:31 the Patriots that week, or today of course it's Jeff.
00:01:34 And then we do a non-Patriots topic.
00:01:36 And it's not gardening, it's not gonna be hygiene,
00:01:39 it's going to be something unique to the guest, usually football related or
00:01:44 adjacent, and we get into that with them.
00:01:46 So you get to know the guest better, we have more content for you, and
00:01:50 get to kick back and have a little bit more fun.
00:01:51 Because there was a comment, all right, we'll bring in Jeff for this,
00:01:54 because I posted that Kendrick Bourne interview I did last week.
00:01:57 Usually there's a couple comments on Twitter where you can say,
00:02:01 the reply has been muted from this account.
00:02:03 Or some version of I've muted that person who's replied,
00:02:06 which I think is a healthy way to go about Twitter.
00:02:08 But one of them I check every once in a while just to see,
00:02:11 maybe I'll bring it back.
00:02:12 And they said, this was a new side of your reporting I'd never seen before.
00:02:15 I was like, that's very nice,
00:02:16 because I typically like to think I talk to Kendrick Bourne like most people.
00:02:21 Do you take the same approach to Twitter?
00:02:24 You and I have texted about this a little bit here back and forth.
00:02:26 >> It's tough, I really, really want to be engaged with everybody on Twitter,
00:02:34 as much as possible.
00:02:35 I mean, there are some really nice supportive people out there.
00:02:39 I mean, sometimes, quite frankly, you just can't keep up with all of it.
00:02:43 Like if you tweet out something that whatever goes viral or blows up or
00:02:46 something like that, you just can't keep up with the mentions.
00:02:48 But I really want to be able to respond to as many questions as I can,
00:02:53 but it's just gotten so nasty.
00:02:55 I mean, it's so bad.
00:02:56 So I don't look at it too often, not nearly as much as I used to,
00:03:01 just because I need a break.
00:03:03 I mean, it's just, there's only so many times you can read somebody telling me
00:03:09 that I suck before you start to wanna- >> Yeah, or just any Mike Giardi tweets,
00:03:13 I get it, yeah, it's a good balance.
00:03:15 Okay, back to Jeff in the corner for a second,
00:03:17 we're gonna bring him in for a ton of great Patriots content.
00:03:20 But when we get in off the field, you're gonna learn a little bit more,
00:03:23 actually, we'll tease this right now, in this separate segment about what life is
00:03:27 like as an insider, as Jeff has come to grow and know and
00:03:31 really master over the last couple of years at the Athletic.
00:03:33 So that is our topic here for today, an example, five minutes off the field.
00:03:38 It might be five questions, we tend to go long here on the podcast.
00:03:40 This is a brand new YouTube exclusive segment,
00:03:43 you will find five off the field with our guests.
00:03:45 Now, later this week, I'm going to be answering every single mailbag question
00:03:50 that you ask, and this will be via Twitter, it will be via email.
00:03:54 And if you want your own video segment, we've had Jordan on, we've had Brian on,
00:03:57 we've had, I don't know why I did this to myself,
00:04:00 cuz I'm forgetting our second guest and now I look like a jerk.
00:04:03 Shadi was his last name, [LAUGH] he's a regular listener and
00:04:06 I hope he continues to.
00:04:08 But if you wanna join the show like them, donate to Boston Children's Hospital,
00:04:12 $1 minimum, screenshot that donation and send it in with your question via Twitter
00:04:17 or email and you will be on the show this week, next week or sometime soon.
00:04:22 Last thing and then we're gonna get into the Patriots.
00:04:24 I mentioned a few weeks ago that the Patriots will spend big in free agency.
00:04:30 It is Tuesday morning, we are eight days into free agency.
00:04:33 Here's what the numbers are.
00:04:34 The Patriots rank 12th in total money committed to fresh free agent contracts.
00:04:39 They rank 14th, Valley Gavage, in total guarantees.
00:04:42 They rank ninth in full guarantees, meaning no matter what,
00:04:46 that player is getting the money, injury, act of God, whatever it might be.
00:04:50 And they rank seventh in first year hard cash spent.
00:04:54 Now, they still rank overall, because again, speaking to Twitter,
00:04:57 nothing is ever good enough.
00:04:58 Even if you just wanna tweet about 2024 free agent contracts and ranks,
00:05:02 people's gonna bring up, that's so misleading.
00:05:04 No, no, no, I'm not talking about anything else.
00:05:06 It's just here are the ranks, this is the year and these are the numbers.
00:05:09 But in 2024 overall, when we step back and we zoom out,
00:05:13 the Patriots still rank seventh lowest in amount of cash spent so far this year.
00:05:17 Now, the league year literally started last week, they're at 193.26 million.
00:05:22 I bring all of this up to say that again, a few weeks ago,
00:05:25 the Patriots will spend big.
00:05:27 Again, a couple of those ranks are in the top ten, to me, that qualifies.
00:05:30 But the reason I said this, which has caused some confusion,
00:05:34 is that there's a minimum for cash spending in the NFL.
00:05:38 It's not year to year, it's within a three year window.
00:05:41 The three year window right now is 2024 to 2026.
00:05:45 Given where the Patriots were pre free agency, which was at the bottom of
00:05:48 the league in cash spending for 2024,
00:05:50 based on their committed contracts and the way that they were scheduled.
00:05:53 It behooved them to spend about $100 million just to stay on pace for
00:05:59 this year alone to reach the cash spending minimum,
00:06:02 which will of course be at the end of 2026.
00:06:04 Meaning that they would at least spend 90% of this year's cap.
00:06:07 Again, you spend 90% in every single year, you're on schedule,
00:06:10 you meet the minimum.
00:06:12 That said, they're 193 million right now committed in cash for 2024.
00:06:19 90% of this year's cap is 229 million.
00:06:22 So when you add in the draft class, 193 goes to 203,
00:06:26 they're still about $25, 26 million short of meeting 90% of this year's cap.
00:06:31 And it does not mean they're going to violate a rule as far as the minimum cash
00:06:34 spending, but it does mean they will be behind schedule unless they make about
00:06:38 $25 to $26 million more in inroads as far as their spending,
00:06:42 going into the next three years.
00:06:44 So that's as far as I want to talk about dollars and cents.
00:06:48 We will get into whether the Patriots should have spent more here in a second.
00:06:51 This is where we bring Jeff back.
00:06:53 How did it feel to make the most boring silent piece of history and
00:06:55 podcast we've had here on Pads or Pants?
00:06:58 >> I'll be honest, when you brought me in for the Twitter question,
00:07:01 I was half asleep.
00:07:02 So I hope I answered it correctly.
00:07:05 >> Jeff had an extended St.
00:07:06 Patty's Day celebration and weekend with the fantasy baseball draft old friends.
00:07:10 I'm about to have the same.
00:07:12 Not going drinking Saturday, Sunday into Monday for you last night.
00:07:17 Mine will be this Saturday, 18 years with fantasy baseball and
00:07:20 I still hang out with these people or they still tolerate me.
00:07:23 I think it's the best way to put that.
00:07:24 Who's your first round pick by the way?
00:07:26 This is completely unrelated to anything, but
00:07:30 you and I both kind of watch the Sox and then keep in touch with the rest of the league.
00:07:33 Like did you know at least your first round pick this year?
00:07:35 >> Yeah, it's Otani.
00:07:38 So that was an easy one, but I had the 10th pick in a 10 person league.
00:07:43 So I took Otani and then I don't even remember who my second pick was.
00:07:49 Me and baseball, it's not what it used to be.
00:07:55 >> Yeah, we've all been on a break.
00:07:56 I think grew up late 90s, early 2000s, the glory days.
00:08:00 I mean everything now that was the glory days for anything period, right?
00:08:03 Cuz you're older and you just look back and you got the nostalgic touch, but
00:08:05 especially baseball.
00:08:07 I don't know, maybe I'm coming back around.
00:08:08 Maybe baseball's fixed itself, realize the errors way the games are faster.
00:08:12 The Red Sox still stink, which is a bummer, but I'm willing to come back to baseball.
00:08:16 All right, baseball's not for another two weeks.
00:08:18 Patriots for agency, as I mentioned, they are in the top half of spending,
00:08:22 whatever way you want to cut it.
00:08:23 But I think the larger takeaway is when you look at the names,
00:08:27 the Patriots did not get better, Jeff.
00:08:30 And you hear this on the radio, you hear it on podcasts, you see it on TV.
00:08:33 Some folks have written this.
00:08:35 This is the first of our true or false statements with the Patriots and
00:08:39 for agency.
00:08:40 The Patriots did not get better over the last eight days, true or false?
00:08:45 >> True, I think they did some good work, but
00:08:48 that doesn't mean that they got better.
00:08:50 And it's also weird because you could also coach it and
00:08:53 say I still think they're gonna be better next year than 4 and 13.
00:08:58 And I think they've laid the groundwork for that and
00:09:01 they've kind of started on a path here where the results should be moving in
00:09:05 a better direction.
00:09:06 I like the fact that they've retained their important free agents, but
00:09:09 to say that they've gotten better, I don't know how you can do that.
00:09:12 I mean, you could also say, well,
00:09:14 Jacoby Breset is probably gonna play quarterback better than Mac Jones did.
00:09:18 The other side of that is Jacoby Breset shouldn't play quarterback next season.
00:09:22 It should be a rookie.
00:09:23 So it's hard to say, I mean, there's a bunch of different ways you can go with
00:09:26 that question, but I think ultimately, no, they did not get better.
00:09:30 But that doesn't mean that they've gotten off to a bad start, in my opinion.
00:09:33 >> I'm gonna say false.
00:09:36 I think it's a very, very slim margin, but I do think they got better and
00:09:41 you have to go positionally in order to figure this out.
00:09:43 And you mentioned Jacoby Breset.
00:09:45 It's an interesting case study in eye test or your recent memory of a player and
00:09:51 some of the numbers because you look at last year, granted, tiny sample,
00:09:54 backed up Sam Howell, who just got traded Washington,
00:09:56 wants no more to do with him.
00:09:57 But clearly it was a situation where he was the backup.
00:10:00 Let's see what they have in the young guy and move forward.
00:10:02 And what was the season they tanked halfway through.
00:10:03 He goes 18 to 23, 224 yards, three touchdowns,
00:10:08 partly against a good Jets defense, gets hurt late in the year, then he's out.
00:10:10 The year before, he was eighth in QBR.
00:10:14 17th in total EPA and in top, I think it was top 12 by PFF grades.
00:10:21 So the raw numbers are 2,600 yards, 12 touchdowns, 6 interceptions,
00:10:24 64% completion percentage.
00:10:26 And folks will know, all of that came under new Patriots offensive coordinator,
00:10:30 Alex Van Pelt when the two of them were in Cleveland.
00:10:32 And there's a lot more around him, good offensive line, Mark Cooper, etc.
00:10:34 That helps Nick Chubb.
00:10:36 But to me that says that version of Jacoby,
00:10:38 even if you wanna knock him down some pegs, around the 20th to 25th.
00:10:42 Let's call him the 26th best quarterback in the league is automatically better than
00:10:45 what you got last year for Mac and what you will probably ever get from Bailey's.
00:10:49 Slight upgrades also to me, Antonio Gibson over Ezekiel Elliott,
00:10:53 Austin Hooper over Mike Kosicki, Farrell Browns, the third tight end,
00:10:56 if you feel bad about it, whatever.
00:10:58 And then KJ Osborne over Devante Parker.
00:11:01 KJ Osborne had a minimum of 540 yards each of the last three seasons.
00:11:05 You know how many times Devante Parker hit 540 yards, Jeff,
00:11:09 over the last three seasons?
00:11:10 >> I'm gonna guess zero.
00:11:12 >> Zero, well done, sir.
00:11:14 Here's the caveat though, he had 539 one year.
00:11:18 So this is not entirely kind or fair to Devante Parker.
00:11:22 >> Numbers are what they are, man.
00:11:23 >> Yes, now I will say the offensive line is worse.
00:11:26 Say what you will about Trent Brown.
00:11:28 I've looked, chatted with Trent a lot in the locker room the last couple of years,
00:11:31 got to know him, had to write some things that did not make him look particularly
00:11:34 good.
00:11:34 It's not my fault, thinks he said, thinks he did.
00:11:37 We all watched the end half of last season.
00:11:39 But without that kind of talent, that raw ability,
00:11:42 even just the warm body in the room, the offensive line is worse.
00:11:45 I just see when you bring back the entire defense, upgrades at receiver,
00:11:48 Antonio Gibson over Zeke.
00:11:50 If you want me to explain that, he's got better pass blocking grades,
00:11:52 more yards after contact, the fumbles don't get me are a real issue.
00:11:55 But Zeke is well past his prime, Antonio Gibson still in his athletic peak.
00:11:59 That to me is where it sticks out.
00:12:02 Like if they were to run it back last year with this group,
00:12:05 I don't think they're a four win team.
00:12:07 There's a lot more that went into that, the kicking situation,
00:12:09 coaching dysfunction, etc.
00:12:10 Is any of that persuasive to you?
00:12:11 >> No, I think it all makes sense.
00:12:14 I'm not necessarily sure that Hooper is an upgrade over Gusecki or
00:12:18 what have you.
00:12:19 I mean, I think it kind of splitting hairs a little bit.
00:12:25 But I mean, again, I think there's just so much more to be done.
00:12:30 And I know what questions are coming up, so I don't want to jump ahead and
00:12:34 get to some other points that I know we'll be able to make eventually.
00:12:38 >> Yeah, all right, now I want to be clear here too.
00:12:41 I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth.
00:12:43 When I say if they were a five win team next year, that's better than four and
00:12:46 13.
00:12:47 That means with this group playing last year's schedule,
00:12:50 yeah, I think it's a little bit better.
00:12:51 Austin Hooper, I think it was a buy low.
00:12:53 If you want to argue about Gusecki, fine.
00:12:55 Gusecki's issue here I think was the fit, right?
00:12:57 Like they have a bunch of big slots.
00:12:59 That's what he is.
00:13:00 He's not gonna be able to play there the way he would in some other systems.
00:13:04 He has to play in line where they put him last year inexplicably more than he had
00:13:07 been basically since his rookie year.
00:13:09 It didn't work out.
00:13:10 Austin Hooper can play a little bit more in line.
00:13:12 But when you're arguing between two players who live somewhere in the low 70s
00:13:16 in Madden ratings, you're not doing great podcasting and
00:13:19 you're probably wasting your time.
00:13:20 So we'll move on.
00:13:21 Defense we should say too, they lost Jalen Mills,
00:13:23 when you're dealing with the Giants, Chipotle Peppers and
00:13:25 Kyle Duggar, your starters to safety.
00:13:27 Sione Takitaki, whose name we cannot say enough on this podcast.
00:13:31 Sione Takitaki, in for Mack Wilson to me as a wash, and he's a little bit cheaper.
00:13:36 Number two, true or false, the Patriots should have been more aggressive and
00:13:39 spent more than they have.
00:13:40 >> True, I think when you laid out the financial aspect
00:13:46 pretty thoroughly off the jump here.
00:13:48 So like they- >> You went from half asleep to like
00:13:51 three quarters as I was going through all that, true or false?
00:13:54 >> They had money to burn, they still do.
00:13:57 I think when you're in a position where you go in a free agency and
00:14:01 you're one of the teams that has the most room to spend or
00:14:05 the most cap to spend or whatever.
00:14:08 There are opportunities to get, I don't wanna say reckless, but overaggressive.
00:14:13 Like you can splurge on one or two players, that's not gonna set your roster
00:14:17 back by a considerable amount, knowing how important the draft is to this rebuild.
00:14:22 So I think Calvin Ridley, I don't wanna sound like a hypocrite.
00:14:26 A couple weeks ago I said, I would absolutely go up to 20 for Calvin Ridley.
00:14:31 And beyond that, I would be hesitant.
00:14:33 So I don't want it to come across as like, well, you can't have it both ways.
00:14:38 But looking at that contract and knowing how important he might have been to your
00:14:43 offense for the next two to three years.
00:14:46 I mean, I would have considered trying to get a little more aggressive.
00:14:49 And would you get a little aggressive on a Saquon Barkley or
00:14:54 a Hollywood Brown or what have you?
00:14:57 Like I know the running back argument and I believe in that and
00:15:01 all that other stuff.
00:15:02 But again, this is a team that is gonna need to support a rookie quarterback and
00:15:06 or a young quarterback for a considerable amount of time.
00:15:10 So you wanna put good pieces around them.
00:15:12 I mean, do you wanna get into, you certainly need to improve the offensive
00:15:17 line.
00:15:18 I mean, try to, I don't know,
00:15:19 throw a little more guaranteed money at a Tyron Smith that the Jets were able to get.
00:15:23 Or just boost the tackle position in some way, shape or form so
00:15:28 you're not fully committed to making sure that you find one in the draft.
00:15:32 You still draft one, but now you're a little more desperate.
00:15:35 Or at least you're trending in that direction where you might have to be
00:15:39 desperate.
00:15:39 So yeah, I mean, it would have been nice to see them get a little more aggressive
00:15:44 for an offensive piece or two.
00:15:46 So they didn't.
00:15:48 >> They did not.
00:15:50 And I think the only fair way to have this conversation, right,
00:15:53 is to identify names and numbers.
00:15:56 You hit on a few there.
00:15:57 Calvin Ridley goes for four years, $92 million, 50 of which was guaranteed.
00:16:01 I've been on the record already saying if you wanna be upset about it, I get it.
00:16:04 Personally, I'm not because I think, again,
00:16:06 the Patriots probably would not have landed him just merely matching that contract.
00:16:11 You're going up now to four for 96, maybe close to 100,
00:16:14 when you consider everyone's favorite topic for agency, state income tax.
00:16:19 In addition to the attractiveness of the market and
00:16:21 the quarterback situation, the coaching staff, everything else,
00:16:24 he's going to play with DeAndre Hopkins in Tennessee.
00:16:26 That's in addition to a roster they've continued to build out.
00:16:30 Marquise Brown is a name that I threw out very much a plan B,
00:16:33 not someone I think is a great fit here.
00:16:35 But at least gives you a little bit more dynamism outside that they've been sorely
00:16:39 lacking for years.
00:16:39 He signs for one year, 7 million.
00:16:41 Again, the tax for the Patriots probably makes that a one for 12, 13,
00:16:45 14 maybe up to maximum value type of contract.
00:16:49 Jonah Williams, who I said in this podcast before,
00:16:52 the Patriots are not strongly involved with,
00:16:54 only got two years and 30 million.
00:16:57 So it's 15 million per is a guy who could play left tackle for
00:17:01 you as he has most of his career at an above average level.
00:17:05 I would say not top 10, probably not 12, but he's in there.
00:17:08 And now you've got Charles Leno, who's obviously in the back nine of his career.
00:17:13 The only other names that came to mind for me, and Tyron Smith is in there.
00:17:17 I just think he was ring chasing,
00:17:19 which is the other part of this conversation we never talk about.
00:17:21 What does the player want, right?
00:17:22 It's typically the most money, but in certain situations like his,
00:17:26 that might not be the case.
00:17:28 Edge was the last position that I thought of, where if you wanted to throw a bag at
00:17:31 Jonathan Greenard, who came up in this podcast last week with Aaron Schatz,
00:17:34 he got a lot of money from Minnesota.
00:17:37 Who also signed, another name I kept an eye on, Andrew Van Ginkle,
00:17:40 who I think hit free agency at the best possible time.
00:17:45 Not only just because of the career stats, the PFF grades,
00:17:48 plays really well against the Patriots in week two.
00:17:50 And you'd be surprised at, I think, the outsized impact on our memory.
00:17:53 You play well in a primetime game, people don't forget.
00:17:56 But he got two years for 20 million, 14 million guaranteed.
00:17:59 He would have been the pick for me over Anthony Jennings.
00:18:01 I think he's just better than Anthony Jennings.
00:18:03 But I understand why they brought back Uche and Anthony Jennings,
00:18:06 basically the price of one Andrew Van Ginkle, and I think that's fine business.
00:18:09 >> Yeah, certainly, I agree with you there.
00:18:12 And Uche, I mean, really threw him a bone by accepting significantly less money
00:18:17 to return to the Patriots and really bet on himself.
00:18:19 And I mean, I still think,
00:18:21 I'm gonna hang on to this one for as long as humanly possible.
00:18:25 I still think Josh Uche has a chance to be a breakout player that everybody
00:18:29 really wants to see.
00:18:31 I'm not gonna give up on that.
00:18:32 >> You were still on the beat, right, for that draft class?
00:18:36 >> I was, yeah.
00:18:37 >> Yeah, so we were doing like dueling profiles and that,
00:18:40 talking about your guy, Don Brown.
00:18:42 >> Yeah, yep.
00:18:43 >> And catching up, I mean, he just, Yeah, I don't know.
00:18:48 You add to Josh Uche, I've said plenty about him.
00:18:51 >> Yeah, no, I think, I mean, if he breaks out, again, he as a pass rusher,
00:18:57 I mean, the market was sort of tough too, because it was sort of flooded
00:19:02 with B minus rate pass rushers.
00:19:06 So I don't know, maybe next year the market looks,
00:19:08 I have no idea who's gonna hit the open market next year.
00:19:11 But there's a chance if he hits 10 sacks this year.
00:19:14 I mean, there's, Gerard Mayo could just say, you know what?
00:19:17 I'm gonna turn you loose, we're gonna help you get those sacks.
00:19:20 We're gonna help you get paid next offseason.
00:19:22 Because if you get paid, that means you had a great year for me.
00:19:25 And I think there's something to be said for that.
00:19:27 Going back to what does the player want to, I mentioned Saquon Barkley.
00:19:31 That was more of a long shot, but an interesting sort of one.
00:19:35 If you're the Patriots, how are you gonna out recruit him against the Eagles,
00:19:40 a team that is expected to contend for the NFC Championship once again?
00:19:44 That's tough, you gotta throw a ton of money at him.
00:19:46 Hollywood Brown, like you were saying, I mean, do you wanna play for
00:19:49 the Chiefs and Patrick Mahomes, or do you wanna go to a rebuild?
00:19:52 So yeah, you're gonna need to throw a significant amount of money.
00:19:55 I think the luxury tax thing, I'm not gonna stick at $5 million here.
00:20:00 But I was talking to people, how big of a deal is that?
00:20:04 And you're talking like a 5% hit between Florida and Massachusetts.
00:20:10 So yeah, again, if you're gonna sign a $100 million contract,
00:20:15 I'm not just sitting here saying throw away 5 million or whatever.
00:20:18 But I feel like the luxury tax thing got so blown out of proportion that it was
00:20:22 like, well, this is the difference between 100 million and 40 million.
00:20:27 It's just like cartoon Monopoly money here, it's not that big of a deal.
00:20:32 But again, when you are at the very early stages of a rebuild, and
00:20:36 you play in a cold weather town, and you don't have a quarterback yet,
00:20:41 yeah, you have to overcompensate with money.
00:20:45 >> Yeah, I just realized I didn't answer this question.
00:20:47 I will say true, whether it was one of those names or someone I missed,
00:20:51 I think that it just behooved them to add a difference maker.
00:20:55 They had the resources, you had the cap, you had positions of need where you can
00:20:59 get guys plug and play Jonathan Greener.
00:21:01 Even Marquise Brown, I would have been fine with.
00:21:03 I just think part of this was a perception issue with Gerard,
00:21:06 with a throwaway line at the end of a WWE interview.
00:21:11 WWE interview, I'm all for, if Gerard ever wants to do this wrestling interview,
00:21:15 please go ahead, Gerard.
00:21:16 Really set the expectations in a way that not only, okay, you could infer based on
00:21:21 the numbers, things I've talked about here, they're gonna spend big,
00:21:24 they have to, they've got the space, yada, yada.
00:21:26 No, no, they're on the record saying we're going to do that.
00:21:29 And he tried to walk it back to our mutual friend and mentor, Karen Garikian,
00:21:32 but the damage was done publicly anyway.
00:21:34 So I'm just curious how much disappointment there is if Gerard just
00:21:38 never said that because it's important to understand that the whole free agency is
00:21:42 framed by our expectations going in where that had a large influence.
00:21:45 That all said, again, I think they should have spent a little bit money,
00:21:48 a ton more.
00:21:48 No, the history of teams spending that much in free agency,
00:21:51 being in the top five and all those categories, not very good.
00:21:54 But one of the aforementioned players, yeah, bring him aboard.
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00:23:11 All right, the Patriots roster, that all said, is at least solid enough, not good,
00:23:15 not great, just solid enough to support a rookie quarterback right now.
00:23:19 >> No, false, they still have room to grow.
00:23:25 I mean, they just don't have any dynamic playmakers.
00:23:30 You put Jaden Daniels or Drake May in this offense right now,
00:23:35 you don't have, I'm not saying everybody needs a Jamar Chase or Justin Jefferson.
00:23:39 But you don't have that one guy who you're sitting there saying,
00:23:42 he is going to be a considerable help to this young player.
00:23:46 I mean, look at the Bears just went and got Keenan Allen to pair with DJ Moore.
00:23:53 And Komet, and I think they got Gerald Everett.
00:23:56 I mean, that's a roster that is building towards some success for
00:24:01 a young quarterback, whereas the Patriots still have a lot of holes.
00:24:04 And I really don't like the argument that you need to build up every
00:24:10 other position before you go and get a rookie quarterback or
00:24:13 you draft a quarterback high.
00:24:15 I think that is an extremely flawed argument.
00:24:18 But there's gonna be some growing pains next season with this young quarterback.
00:24:25 There's time, there could be some surprise trades or some sort of shocking move or
00:24:29 two that happens immediately after we close down this podcast and
00:24:33 we look dumb or whatever.
00:24:34 But right now it is what it is, they still have a lot of room to grow.
00:24:40 They're gonna need to really solidify the offensive line.
00:24:43 They're gonna have to be really committed to the running game.
00:24:45 Ramondre Stevenson is gonna have to have a terrific season.
00:24:48 He's gonna have to stay healthy.
00:24:49 I mean, a lot of things are gonna have to really come together to offset
00:24:53 the fact that they still have some holes at wide receiver.
00:24:56 >> I agree, this is false.
00:24:59 The roster is not ready to support rookie quarterback.
00:25:01 They need to add more specifically to two groups, offensive line and
00:25:05 the receiving core.
00:25:06 Receiving core, if it's not worse than the league, it's at least bottom five.
00:25:09 And there is a scary, scary floor for the offensive line.
00:25:14 That rated among last year's worst in terms of ESPN's pass block win rate or
00:25:18 run block win rate and some of that stuff.
00:25:20 It's great that we can quantify and you stop at two and
00:25:23 a half seconds to the offensive lineman win or did he lose?
00:25:25 And then it's really cut and dry.
00:25:27 It's not the case, I think, in every sort of play.
00:25:29 But you look at PFF, you look with your own eyes, adjusted line yards,
00:25:32 there are lots of different metrics now for line play.
00:25:35 It was a bad offensive line, and we all understand that.
00:25:37 Bringing back Michael Munning was great.
00:25:39 Maybe some of the rookies from last year, Tony Amalfi, City South will develop.
00:25:42 David Andrews getting up there,
00:25:43 Cole Strange is gonna be coming off another injury.
00:25:45 And there's no left tackle.
00:25:46 If you go to ourlabs.com, my go-to for depth charts in the NFL,
00:25:50 cuz just don't trust the team website.
00:25:52 Conor McDermott is LT1 right now for this team and you just can't have it.
00:25:58 But I'm really glad you brought up the point about some people believe you need
00:26:02 to have the roster completely ready, then you bring in the quarterback.
00:26:07 Because I just could not disagree with this more.
00:26:10 It is asking for too much.
00:26:11 It shows a lack of touch with how teams have built outside of New England in the
00:26:15 last 20 to 25 years.
00:26:17 It is as if you want to buy a car, but only if you have a new house with
00:26:22 a driveway and a garage and an automatic door closer for that garage.
00:26:29 No, you can park on the street.
00:26:31 Yeah, your car, this quarterback might get nicked up or get sideswiped.
00:26:35 You can still drive and the ability that you have to drive with that car is going
00:26:39 to change your life in so many more ways where you have control over your travel
00:26:43 and your destiny wherever you want to go next.
00:26:44 Because you have that quarterback or that car more than just a nice place to house
00:26:48 him overnight and make sure he doesn't get scraped by the dude who's biking home
00:26:52 drunk from work or hopefully not from work.
00:26:55 [LAUGH]
00:26:56 Right, you get my point.
00:26:58 Like, it's just asking for too much, okay?
00:27:00 Not everyone gets a kid and a house and a car all right and away.
00:27:03 What is most important, okay?
00:27:05 Right now as far as where you can be and what you can do and
00:27:07 all the things that open up possibilities in your life is that car.
00:27:11 And it's a rough analogy, but I just think that's the best way to get this across is
00:27:15 if not now, when with this kind of deal that you would have.
00:27:18 If not now, when with the quarterback class because it's a bad class next year.
00:27:21 You're getting Kirk Cousins with the torn Achilles is the big prize for agency,
00:27:25 right? 36, 35 year old dude going to Atlanta.
00:27:29 Franchise quarterbacks, even if they're not a guarantee,
00:27:32 are not to be found everywhere.
00:27:33 You need to seize on one when you have the chance and they do here.
00:27:37 >> Yeah, absolutely, and there's another part of the argument that nobody
00:27:42 can really argue against.
00:27:44 The bust rate on high quarterbacks is considerable and
00:27:49 there is reason to be wary for that.
00:27:51 But as I've said a million times, just because the Raiders screwed up with
00:27:55 Jamarcus Russell doesn't mean that you shouldn't take a quarterback 15 years
00:27:59 later, whatever it is, just you can't compare those two situations.
00:28:03 What you need to do is you need to be confident in your evaluation.
00:28:06 And if you think that player is worth that pick and
00:28:08 you can continue to develop him once he's in your building,
00:28:11 you have to go ahead and make that pick.
00:28:13 The other part of it too is like, yeah, it certainly makes sense to put
00:28:19 a rookie quarterback or a young quarterback or any quarterback into a good situation.
00:28:23 Hell, look at Tom Brady's last year.
00:28:25 The offensive coaching was so bad that the greatest quarterback of all time as
00:28:29 a 45 year old couldn't outmaneuver some of the flaws that the Bucks had during
00:28:35 his final season.
00:28:36 It doesn't matter if you're a rookie quarterback or
00:28:39 wherever you are in your career.
00:28:41 You need help around you with the coaching and with the players.
00:28:44 And if you build up a competent roster at a bunch of different places,
00:28:49 you're probably not gonna be in position to draft one of those top two or
00:28:53 three quarterbacks, whatever year you're ready to do that.
00:28:56 I mean, look at the Bears.
00:28:57 Again, a team that is really starting to finally after decades trend in the right
00:29:02 direction, they only have the number one pick because of a trade from the previous
00:29:06 year, so they got fortunate.
00:29:07 I mean, they wouldn't be, otherwise they'd have the ninth pick and
00:29:10 I mean, they still do, of course, but you know what I'm getting at.
00:29:12 And then you mentioned the Falcons example,
00:29:15 like that's a team that has been basically a bottom feeder for the last few years.
00:29:20 And I think this is the, I don't know, it feels like the third straight year.
00:29:23 They've had the eighth pick or whatever it is,
00:29:25 like they're in the bottom of the top ten once again.
00:29:28 And the reason why they had to spend so much money on Kirk Cousins is because they
00:29:31 haven't been in position to draft their guy.
00:29:34 And I guess there's a lot of tangents we can go off on that one too.
00:29:39 But the fact of the matter is, if the quarterback is there,
00:29:44 you don't pass him by.
00:29:45 And people could say, well, look at what happened with Patrick Mahomes or
00:29:49 Jordan Love or Aaron Rodgers or Josh Allen.
00:29:53 Those guys weren't necessarily the top quarterback in their class, but
00:29:58 the situation that they were in was also very, very good.
00:30:01 And they gave them the time to grow and develop.
00:30:03 I mean, Josh Allen's first couple years was really difficult.
00:30:06 You put Patrick Mahomes, like everybody wants to debate,
00:30:09 is it Brady or Belichick or both or whatever?
00:30:12 Patrick Mahomes is with a guy who basically everybody around the league
00:30:15 believes is the best play caller in business and Andy Reid.
00:30:18 I mean, that goes a long way.
00:30:19 So you can't wait until everything is perfect around you.
00:30:23 At some point, you just gotta make that move if you think you have the right one.
00:30:28 >> Yeah, okay, this is a perfect lead into our next two.
00:30:30 And let's hit this first one quickly and then move to the second one.
00:30:34 KJ Osborne, signs on St. Patrick's Day.
00:30:37 Very glad that Doug was able to take care of this for me.
00:30:39 I'll leave it at that.
00:30:40 He will finish as the Patriots most important outside for
00:30:44 agent signing of this year's class, true or false?
00:30:47 >> I mean, who's this competition?
00:30:53 >> Well, again, guy who has had 540 yards in each of the last three seasons or
00:30:59 more, he averaged 615 as the number three in Minnesota.
00:31:02 And a lot of us can make a decent living being in the number three receiver in
00:31:05 Minnesota when you're with Justin Jefferson and for a time there, Adam Thielen.
00:31:09 And now Jordan Addison, obviously from USC.
00:31:11 So his life gets harder in New England.
00:31:14 He's also just a capable receiver that they've signed,
00:31:16 which makes a big deal given the state of the receiver room.
00:31:19 So is he the most important one or no?
00:31:21 >> I'll just say false, cuz I'm not trying to disrespect him.
00:31:25 I just I think there still needs to be other moves coming.
00:31:29 They just, they gotta keep plugging away at this thing.
00:31:32 >> So it's false to mystery man, just the TVB signing, okay.
00:31:37 >> I don't know who it will be.
00:31:39 >> Not because of the mystery man or the free agent to come.
00:31:43 It's because of Jacoby Brissett.
00:31:45 And again, I wanna underscore, I read off a bunch of numbers that made his 2022
00:31:49 season a little bit rosier than it was.
00:31:51 It's still better than you remember,
00:31:53 which was the point of those numbers I rattled off.
00:31:55 He's not a full time starter in the NFL.
00:31:57 He knows that he's a bridge guy.
00:31:59 He's somewhere between 25th and 35th best quarterback in the league.
00:32:02 But what he can do for this franchise is take the hits for the next guy.
00:32:08 You listed off Aaron Rodgers, Jordan Love, Patrick Mahomes,
00:32:11 all of whom who sat here.
00:32:13 If Drake May or Jane Daniels, as determined by the coaching staff,
00:32:16 not the media, but the coaching staff, says he's not ready.
00:32:19 We wanna preserve him, develop him a little bit longer.
00:32:22 You have a guy here who can run the offense, who has experience with
00:32:26 the coaches, is respected in the locker room, and knows where to be and what to do.
00:32:31 And that guy who will do that for New England at a cheap price,
00:32:34 who's got experience doing it here in other places, is invaluable.
00:32:38 If anything, just to be the pinata under center and
00:32:41 in the pocket until those guys are ready.
00:32:43 Because that is the most important thing, is the development of the next guy.
00:32:47 In the meantime, Jacoby Brissett is someone that you can trust.
00:32:49 You're not gonna win a ton of games with.
00:32:51 But spoiler alert, the Patriots are not winning a ton of games in 2024.
00:32:55 That to me is why he is going to be the most important free agent signing.
00:32:59 Unless of course you get Mr.
00:33:01 Mystery Man, which I guess would be what,
00:33:02 Stefan Gilmore in a time machine right now?
00:33:04 [LAUGH]
00:33:05 >> They did have interest in trying to bring him back last year.
00:33:08 I think the Brissett point is important.
00:33:12 I would be surprised if the third overall pick is not their starting
00:33:18 quarterback next year, but I'm with you in the sense that I do believe that
00:33:23 they're not gonna put him out there if he's not ready.
00:33:25 So if Jaden Daniels or Drake May, whoever it is, has a bad off season or
00:33:29 a rough training camp, I could absolutely see them saying, you know what?
00:33:33 Let's not rush this.
00:33:34 And there are a bunch of examples of quarterbacks who've gotten ruined from
00:33:39 starting too early.
00:33:40 David Carr with the Texans 25 years ago or whatever that was, 20 years ago.
00:33:46 I've had people tell me that David Carr is one of the most talented quarterbacks to
00:33:49 enter the league in quite a while.
00:33:51 It's just he got sacked 75 times as a rookie or whatever it was, and
00:33:56 he just couldn't overcome that.
00:33:59 That really ruined him.
00:34:00 And I've used this example a million times.
00:34:03 But Trevor Lawrence told me midway through his second season that he had to
00:34:07 rebuild his confidence after his rookie season because everything,
00:34:11 there was just so much turmoil with Urban Meyer and the Jaguars.
00:34:14 And he didn't play well and all these extra factors.
00:34:19 And then you can look at Mac Jones and the lack of development here over the last
00:34:22 two years and not to sidetrack this on the reasons why.
00:34:27 >> Well, hold on, I'm gonna sidetrack it real quick just because this guy retired
00:34:30 last week and Urban Meyer did not know who Aaron Donald was back in his only
00:34:35 season as a head coach of the Jacksonville Jaguars.
00:34:37 And that cannot be shared or said enough,
00:34:40 even on Patriots podcast that an ex-Jaguars head coach looked at the tape,
00:34:44 circled it and goes, who's this 99 fellow for the Rams?
00:34:47 That happened.
00:34:48 Continue. >> Yeah, yeah, not ideal.
00:34:51 I feel like that should be the first question in every head coaching interview.
00:34:56 Do you know who Aaron Donald is?
00:34:57 And if they can't pass that, you just dismiss them from the interview.
00:35:00 But yeah, look, you need drafting and developing.
00:35:04 It's not a cliche, it's a real thing.
00:35:06 And I think people around here certainly are more aware of the perils of
00:35:12 what happens when you can't or you quit on developing a young quarterback.
00:35:17 >> And I would say too, because the Mac Jones point is a real good one,
00:35:22 that not only are more quarterbacks broken by their franchises,
00:35:27 then I would say the quarterbacks break them.
00:35:29 Like the support and the environment,
00:35:31 the ecosystem matter so much at that stage of development.
00:35:33 Quarterbacks are maybe otherwise in life, but sticking here,
00:35:37 like Mac Jones stepped into the best situation that any of those first round
00:35:40 rookie quarterbacks had in 2021.
00:35:42 That's why he was partly the best quarterback that year from that class.
00:35:46 Since then, his environment has deteriorated and Trevor Lawrence has gone
00:35:50 up to his rightful place, his water has kind of found its balance here.
00:35:54 As the best prospect in that class, now surrounded in a better environment.
00:35:58 But just wonder for a second, what Mac Jones would look like as a rookie in 2021.
00:36:04 He had stepped into either situation that he had last year or
00:36:07 in 2022 with Peppitre as his offensive coordinator.
00:36:10 He never reaches the heights that he did in 2021.
00:36:13 So that part about, it's the development and the draft and the timing.
00:36:18 That's all interconnected.
00:36:20 It's not just the QB coach and the quarterback, who's he throwing to,
00:36:22 who's protecting him, what's the overall environment?
00:36:25 The Mac Jones story is so different.
00:36:27 It might go in reverse, frankly, of how we last saw him if he was a rookie,
00:36:31 performing like he did this year, had he stepped in the league with the current
00:36:34 situation of the Patriots offense or the one we saw in 2022.
00:36:38 >> Yeah, I mean, this does not get nearly enough attention.
00:36:42 And I think Louis Riddick does a great job of making sure that people hear
00:36:47 this point, and he did it for a story I wrote before that 21 draft,
00:36:51 when talking about the quote unquote quarterback graveyard.
00:36:55 And everybody wants to just label the quarterback a bust.
00:36:59 And look, there are plenty who are.
00:37:01 There are guys who would not have succeeded in any situation no matter what.
00:37:05 That is absolutely true.
00:37:07 But there are so many situations, so many organizations that ruin quarterbacks.
00:37:13 Or quarterbacks never would have had a chance to be as great or
00:37:17 never had a chance to even be competent because of how bad everything was around
00:37:21 them.
00:37:22 And it's not hard to look around the league and
00:37:24 figure out which teams and situations those have been.
00:37:27 >> All right, we have three more.
00:37:30 This is the big one.
00:37:32 I think we're gonna be in agreement.
00:37:33 The draft will be far more important to the end result of the Patriots rebuild
00:37:38 than this class and for agency, true or false?
00:37:41 >> 100%, that's the case with the Patriots and every organization in the league.
00:37:45 Whether you're rebuilding or restocking or whatever,
00:37:47 it's always got to be the draft.
00:37:48 >> I love it.
00:37:51 I have some examples here.
00:37:52 I'm just gonna rattle off because I prepared them.
00:37:54 [LAUGH] But if you wanna look at recent rebuilds, look, and
00:37:58 this isn't to say people listening don't have a right to be pissed about Patriots
00:38:02 for agency.
00:38:03 I give it a final C plus.
00:38:04 You hit a bunch of assignments for an A or B plus with all these signings,
00:38:08 team friendly contracts, they're good money or they're fair market deals.
00:38:11 And then you just didn't show up to the final exam,
00:38:12 which was getting a big receiver and all told comes out to a C plus.
00:38:16 But when you look at any rebuild recently, right, the draft and
00:38:19 what happens here in April is gonna be so
00:38:21 much more important than how you feel right now by that for agent class.
00:38:24 It could be Josh Allen in Buffalo.
00:38:25 It could be Houston with CJ Stroud.
00:38:27 It could be Trevor Lawrence with the Jaguars, Jalen Hurts in Philadelphia.
00:38:31 All of these rebuilds center around a young quarterback who's been drafted and
00:38:35 then developed.
00:38:36 And if not, they use a first round draft pick or some sort of big asset like
00:38:41 a Matthew Stafford and get a veteran quarterback and surround him with elite
00:38:45 pieces.
00:38:46 I mentioned Jared Goff, the Lions with Aiden Hutchinson, Penny Sewell,
00:38:49 a monitor St. Brown, Jameer Gibbs.
00:38:51 That's a more expensive, I think less likely route to rebuild.
00:38:55 But whether the Patriots nail all their picks rounds two through four, or
00:38:59 just get the quarterback at number one, have a so-so draft the rest of the way,
00:39:02 that will all matter so much more to the next two, three,
00:39:05 four year trajectory of this franchise.
00:39:07 Then just bringing back to Kobe Brissett and re-signing Mike O'Mara.
00:39:11 >> Yeah, you brought up the Lions example like that is, it's so
00:39:15 perfect because looking at their drafts under Brad Holmes.
00:39:21 I mean, they're not just nailing their first round picks, which they are.
00:39:24 And they've had like six of them because of that trade.
00:39:27 But they're just crushing it on day two and early in day three.
00:39:32 And that's why they were able to explode really the last year and
00:39:36 a half, because all of that young talent started to develop.
00:39:40 At the same time under a coach that they all wanna play as hard as humanly
00:39:44 possible for.
00:39:45 And this Lions thing is no fluke.
00:39:50 Just there's so much talent because of how well they've drafted in the first few
00:39:53 rounds the last, I mean, going on basically three straight years.
00:39:58 And the difficult part about this, right, is that none of us will know unless
00:40:02 there's an extreme result on one end of the spectrum or the other, right?
00:40:07 Drake May makes, I can't say the Pro Bowl because Mac was a Pro Bowl alternate,
00:40:10 as I'm often reminded.
00:40:11 But we won't know about the success or
00:40:14 failure of this draft class for another couple of years.
00:40:16 And that's a hard part.
00:40:16 Free agency, you know pretty much right away.
00:40:18 These are largely established commodities.
00:40:20 They come in, they play well, good job.
00:40:21 If not, well, that was a waste of a contract and capital.
00:40:24 I'm just saying the patience is worth it.
00:40:26 Ask the Lions, ask any of those teams that I rattled off where they built
00:40:30 through the draft, it took them a little bit.
00:40:31 Josh Allen's 2018 year, I was so convinced he was another bust.
00:40:35 2019, they're in the playoffs, they should have won a game at Houston.
00:40:38 The Eagles, we've all seen them rebound quickly from the end of the Peterson era
00:40:42 to Nick Sirianni, everything with the Lions that you just mentioned.
00:40:45 It takes a little bit more time, but if it hits, it's absolutely worth it.
00:40:48 This is something I'm gonna lead on you a lot more and I won't have much to say.
00:40:53 True or false, the Patriots have an image problem,
00:40:57 including perception from agents, free agents, and other front offices.
00:41:01 >> True, but that's the case for
00:41:04 any team that is coming off a 4-13 season.
00:41:08 I mean, there's some question over the new regime,
00:41:12 of course, because they're new and unproven.
00:41:17 It's not like they have a retread head coach or there's a track record here.
00:41:22 Elliott Wolfe, as I've said to you a million times,
00:41:25 is very well respected around the league.
00:41:27 Gerard Mayo, I mean, there's a reason why Gerard Mayo kept getting calls about
00:41:31 interviews over the last several years.
00:41:33 People really respect him and his leadership and his presence and
00:41:36 all that other stuff.
00:41:37 So it's not about that, it's just, okay, this is new and
00:41:40 we wanna see what this looks like.
00:41:42 There's skepticism over, all right,
00:41:44 how much change will there be in the post Belichick worlds?
00:41:48 Are they, I think Gerard Mayo has done a good job over the last couple months of
00:41:53 conveying that it's going to be different in Foxborough, but
00:41:56 people wanna see these things.
00:41:58 And then the other part too, I know this sounds corny because we're from here,
00:42:03 but some people just don't wanna play in the cold.
00:42:06 They don't wanna live in rural Foxborough.
00:42:09 That's just when Miami's calling or somebody down south is calling,
00:42:14 it's appealing to be in nicer weather.
00:42:17 And that is a factor, all of these things, again,
00:42:22 they might sound corny, but they do tend to add up.
00:42:25 And when you are going into a season where you're still trying to
00:42:30 rebound in the post Tom Brady era, and now everything is a lot different.
00:42:36 You have to, quite frankly, like I said earlier,
00:42:41 you've gotta pay for these players to come up here.
00:42:43 And until you were able to turn it around, or until people start to spread
00:42:48 the word that hey, Gerard Mayo really is a great coach.
00:42:50 Or once the players start conveying that to their friends around the league or
00:42:55 going into year two or what have you.
00:43:00 I'm thinking of the example of after the 2000 Patriots,
00:43:03 when they got a couple, Roman Pfeiffer is the one I'm thinking of.
00:43:09 And some guys who were on that 2000 Patriots team were reaching out to Roman
00:43:13 Pfeiffer and some other guys around the league.
00:43:15 And they were like, hey, look, I know we just went six and ten.
00:43:18 But I'm telling you, we're building something here.
00:43:20 We were three and three down the stretch, and that felt like a big win.
00:43:25 And Belichick knows what he's doing.
00:43:27 And I'm telling you, you're gonna wanna be here because when this thing starts to
00:43:30 click, it's gonna be good.
00:43:31 And those are the things that sort of help accelerate a rebuild.
00:43:36 And they matter.
00:43:38 So again, it's just about kind of showing people what you,
00:43:42 everybody's got a plan, now you need to show how it's gonna work.
00:43:46 I hope that made sense.
00:43:47 >> Yeah, that did make sense in two fronts.
00:43:50 One of which I think is proof of concept, right?
00:43:52 I think is what you're talking about.
00:43:53 Let's see what it looks like.
00:43:54 And even at the Patriots go, six and 11, five and 12.
00:43:57 How does that finish look?
00:43:59 How does Gerard Mayo come off in his press conferences?
00:44:02 And that didn't matter, right, under Bill, because Bill was anointed the greatest of
00:44:05 all time years and years and years before he eventually left New England, right?
00:44:09 That was the appeal, come play for me, as we heard from free agents,
00:44:13 even as recently as 12 months ago, that's gone.
00:44:16 So what makes Gerard appealing?
00:44:19 We heard from Antonio Gibson earlier this week saying, the vibe is different.
00:44:22 You can tell he's kind of a players coach.
00:44:24 Once that gets around to the league in video clips, TikTok,
00:44:28 any kind of sound clips, that'll help.
00:44:30 You just need to see it first, cuz we're not there yet, and
00:44:32 they haven't played any games.
00:44:33 So once they establish whatever this new Patriots identity is,
00:44:36 then you can build on that, like you're saying in that Roman Pfeiffer.
00:44:39 Who, we did top five names for linebackers of all time.
00:44:43 I'm not calling, just a name.
00:44:45 You are fitting, you were born to be a linebacker.
00:44:46 Roman Pfeiffer's on that list, yeah?
00:44:48 >> 100%, and he backed it up in his play, so.
00:44:51 >> So you just need to see it first, because otherwise,
00:44:54 if you're out in San Francisco, you're down in Texas, or you're up in Green Bay,
00:44:57 you don't really know Gerard Mayo.
00:44:59 You might know Elliott Wolfe, but he's in the front office.
00:45:02 What's the coaching like?
00:45:02 What's the vibe like, the atmosphere?
00:45:04 And then that might help serve as a tiebreaker.
00:45:06 Number two, I put this question on here because there was a team source that
00:45:11 related Doug Codd, obviously, that he felt at the combine,
00:45:16 the shine was kind of worn off.
00:45:18 Like not a total loss of respect, but you could tell people were treating
00:45:21 the Patriots differently from when they were the Patriots.
00:45:24 And they were trying to get back to that, a level of respectability,
00:45:27 which Elliott gave voice to in his press conference at the combine.
00:45:30 So I was just curious, because your frame of reference, your contacts,
00:45:33 your network, far bigger than mine, and just what that might look like.
00:45:36 And sometimes it is as simple as, hey, okay, here are the new names.
00:45:40 We don't know anything about them.
00:45:41 So we don't need to rush to get back to certain texts or pick up calls or
00:45:46 really consider them if you're a player in free agency,
00:45:49 because they haven't spent a whole lot.
00:45:51 They've been a bad team through the last four years.
00:45:53 And come on, show me what you got.
00:45:56 >> Yeah, I mean, speaking to people close with some of the premier free agents,
00:46:02 we're just like, yeah, I mean, I don't think my client wants to play there.
00:46:07 It's just people don't wanna go lose.
00:46:11 And the Patriots have to prove that they have a path to winning more games than
00:46:15 they have been doing over, like you said, most of the last four years.
00:46:19 And there's no longer that attraction of, I can go to play with Tom Brady and
00:46:24 guarantee a bad season is a loss in the AFC Championship game.
00:46:28 That era is very far in the rear view mirror at this point.
00:46:32 So, but another part too, and I don't wanna make too much of this.
00:46:36 I don't want it to sound like, just because of Josh Uche,
00:46:39 they're going to Disney World next year or whatever.
00:46:42 But I really think if Uche, so all right, I'll back it up even more.
00:46:49 Again, sort of a corny example, but
00:46:51 Belichick is big on making sure his edge guys are well rounded.
00:46:54 You gotta set the edge, you gotta play the run,
00:46:56 you gotta do all the boring stuff.
00:46:58 And then maybe you can get after the quarterback a little.
00:47:01 Like if maybe Jaron Mayo says, you know what, I'm gonna turn you loose.
00:47:04 And I'm not saying you play a poor assignment football and
00:47:07 you blow your gap or whatever.
00:47:10 But if Jaron Mayo just says, you know what, Josh, just go get the quarterback.
00:47:15 Don't worry about everything else and have some fun on the field.
00:47:19 I'm gonna really make sure I spotlight you.
00:47:21 And if you become a star, everybody else on the defense is gonna look better.
00:47:26 Like if something along those lines starts to happen, then again,
00:47:30 the element of having some fun at the football facility is important for
00:47:34 this generation of player.
00:47:36 And I think everybody in New England, we were all sort of conditioned to see,
00:47:41 like, okay, well, you know what, Belichick is not gonna let you have quote,
00:47:46 unquote fun.
00:47:46 But you're gonna win a lot of football games and that's the reward.
00:47:50 And when you're not winning football games and you're not having fun, and
00:47:53 you start to have the results that you see.
00:47:56 So some of that stuff that again, these might be small examples, but
00:48:00 when you start to string enough of these examples together,
00:48:03 they really do start to add up and matter.
00:48:05 >> Yeah, I will say too, I think to that point, right,
00:48:09 the conditioning was more, this is what winning football looks like.
00:48:14 This is what it is.
00:48:15 This is the only definition of what it is.
00:48:17 And because of the success they had going to whatever it was,
00:48:20 10, 11 Super Bowls in 20 years.
00:48:22 You're like, well, that makes sense because who the hell just gets to go to
00:48:25 the championship 50% of the time?
00:48:26 This must be the answer.
00:48:27 There are other avenues to winning.
00:48:29 And now the Patriots need to reestablish whatever that Gerard Mayo avenue to
00:48:32 winning will be.
00:48:33 In the meantime, as far as being an attractive destination, it is true.
00:48:37 You brought up Dashoudche.
00:48:38 He signed for a ridiculously low amount to stay in New England,
00:48:42 not long term, on a one year contract.
00:48:44 Kendrick Bourne let the Patriots, as he said in this podcast,
00:48:48 determine his value and take that.
00:48:50 Now, he wasn't going to take a big pay cut or anything like that,
00:48:52 as I said before.
00:48:54 But there are players who want to be here.
00:48:56 And that's the other half of the equation of those who re-sign here.
00:48:58 They might have gotten a fair market deal or a team friendly one.
00:49:01 At least the players who have been here have enjoyed it and
00:49:03 whatever they experienced, those at least who have hit free agency.
00:49:05 It doesn't go for all places.
00:49:06 But I think the people who are here have experienced it.
00:49:11 If you're on the outside, that's what still needs to be proven.
00:49:14 Which brings us to our last true or false.
00:49:15 True or false, you have more confidence in the Jarrod Mayo,
00:49:20 the Elliott Wolf regime, than you did two months ago when they were first formed
00:49:24 together.
00:49:24 >> False only because it's the same.
00:49:27 I thought, I said a couple weeks ago, probably to you,
00:49:34 the Nguyen Huu signing was going to be big.
00:49:39 And if they lost him, unless it was for some ridiculous amount of money,
00:49:43 like he went and got Nate Solder, Joe Tooney, historic money elsewhere.
00:49:49 I thought that was an important piece to keep.
00:49:52 Kyle Duggar is sort of still a TBA or TBD.
00:49:55 But they've kept their important players.
00:49:59 And there really is something to be said for that.
00:50:02 When you are, Belichick did, maybe the drafting wasn't always there.
00:50:08 But the few players that he did draft well over the course of time and
00:50:12 when they started to expire, their contracts expired and they left.
00:50:16 And you need to keep your good players.
00:50:19 Those are your foundation.
00:50:21 So I thought a lot of the moves they've made were important.
00:50:23 They didn't skimp on the Nguyen Huu contract or whatever.
00:50:28 There are a handful of examples like that.
00:50:30 Again, they caught a break with Uche accepting a lot less than he had on
00:50:35 the table elsewhere.
00:50:36 But again, I think that's important.
00:50:39 And it shows that Josh Uche really wants to play for Gerard Mayo.
00:50:43 And that sentiment that we've heard over the years, he's a player's coach.
00:50:49 If that continues to come to fruition and they show it and
00:50:51 they put the proof on the fields,
00:50:53 things will start to snowball in the right direction and or develop some momentum.
00:50:58 So they've done some good things.
00:51:02 My perception of them has not changed.
00:51:04 So I'm not saying false, but I don't think it's a bad false.
00:51:09 >> That's where I land too, but just for the sake of not agreeing on what now feels
00:51:13 like half of these, I'm going to say true.
00:51:15 And it is more to do with Elliot than it is Gerard,
00:51:18 who I said at the time was a worthy gamble.
00:51:20 This will be a long term play.
00:51:22 I don't think he's gonna be a top ten head coach,
00:51:23 probably not even above average in his first year.
00:51:26 It's a steep learning curve.
00:51:27 He's been coaching for just five years.
00:51:29 This is an incredibly difficult, different job from what he was used to
00:51:32 as de facto defensive coordinator, who wasn't even calling plays.
00:51:35 Not to dismiss him, it's just a large gap.
00:51:38 We'll see what happens when he springs and tries to make that jump.
00:51:41 Elliot though, in speaking with people around the combine, and agents and
00:51:45 certain players, and even ex coaches who have not been in New England for
00:51:48 a long time, but still remember overlapping with him in 20 and 21.
00:51:53 Universally speak highly of him.
00:51:55 And I don't know what to make of that except for
00:51:56 you have to trust it at some point.
00:51:58 Now we need to see it in the numbers and the players.
00:52:01 But we talk about Calvin Ridley and how this was a big blow and
00:52:04 I think it was, period, end of story.
00:52:06 If you wanna find the silver lining here though,
00:52:08 it's the fact that that contract would have represented,
00:52:11 had Calvin Ridley signed the reported offer of $22 million per year.
00:52:15 Double the highest offer that Belichick ever extended a wide receiver
00:52:21 on an average annual basis.
00:52:22 That sadly went to Nelson Aguilar at $11 million a year back in 2021.
00:52:26 That is a huge shift from the previous regime in terms of their view and
00:52:31 beliefs about roster building and the importance of that position and
00:52:34 how you spend it.
00:52:35 It's not middle class veterans spread it out, Kendrick Foreign here,
00:52:38 Devontae Parker there.
00:52:39 No, this is a one on one, I'm willing to pay for it.
00:52:41 They didn't get them, that's what matters most, right?
00:52:44 We're not doing the kings of interest here thing with the Red Sox.
00:52:47 But you can see that they still believe in value with the contracts they signed.
00:52:51 They did not sign a single bad contract in free agency.
00:52:53 They didn't add difference makers, but I believe a little bit more in Elliott.
00:52:57 There's nothing Gerard has done, I think that would be fair to judge him,
00:53:00 as far as being a head coach in the NFL.
00:53:02 I think both of them have made some PR missteps, which again,
00:53:05 we should all root for honesty.
00:53:07 That's where that came from, dropping like we got cast to burn.
00:53:11 And then Elliott saying, there's a less hard ass type of vibe.
00:53:14 I'm like, great, please be honest with us.
00:53:16 But as far as the best interest of making themselves look publicly, yeah,
00:53:20 probably best just to stash those in their pocket and not say it.
00:53:24 Does that matter though?
00:53:24 Does it have a material impact on winning and building a culture and
00:53:27 rebuilding a roster?
00:53:28 No, I just think we're hung up more on that if you are someone who's taken
00:53:32 a negative approach to both of them.
00:53:34 And I say this again, it's only two months in,
00:53:36 a lot of this is what I've heard from other people in the league that I trust.
00:53:38 It's universally positive, I like the business they've done.
00:53:41 A C plus is slightly above average for free agency, that's what Elliott's done.
00:53:45 So I give him a slightly more belief about that.
00:53:48 >> I think two things here, one on the Ridley contract.
00:53:52 Yeah, I've seen the reported numbers at 22 per year, but
00:53:56 there's still a lot of context missing there.
00:53:59 And- >> True, very true.
00:54:01 >> Average annual value, it only goes so
00:54:03 far when you're talking about how close they realistically were.
00:54:06 I mean, for a guy like Ridley, a receiver who's approaching being 30 years old,
00:54:12 22 times three years, we don't know.
00:54:16 I mean, a third and a fourth year is extremely different when it comes to
00:54:20 a contract for a player at that age.
00:54:22 And we don't know what the guarantees were, all that other stuff.
00:54:25 So you could sit there and say, well, Tennessee got him for 23, and
00:54:29 the Patriots offered 22.
00:54:30 But we don't know what that 22 realistically looked like yet, or
00:54:34 if we ever will.
00:54:35 So I think that's important.
00:54:37 And then trying to think of what my second point was gonna be.
00:54:41 Somebody's ringing the doorbell.
00:54:42 >> It's the fantasy draft coming back to bite you.
00:54:43 Granted, we've almost been going for an hour, we have at least five minutes.
00:54:46 Which as you were talking a couple questions ago,
00:54:49 I was thinking maybe we should do 15 off the field.
00:54:51 But I don't want anyone to run out of gas for this separate segment.
00:54:54 We're gonna do a YouTube exclusive.
00:54:56 Have I bought you enough time in the meantime to think of what your number two
00:54:58 was?
00:54:59 >> No.
00:55:02 >> [LAUGH] >> It probably wasn't that good then.
00:55:05 >> That's okay.
00:55:06 It's an excellent point though.
00:55:08 And I, look, have invited people who listen to this podcast to push back on
00:55:11 things they say or provide feedback.
00:55:13 I'm glad that you do,
00:55:14 especially as someone who is closer to those negotiations and
00:55:17 discussions than I was.
00:55:19 It's a really important point, guarantees, and
00:55:22 context of all these contracts.
00:55:24 Because I think fans have slowly come around to learn,
00:55:26 stop looking at the maximum value.
00:55:27 What is the base value of the contract?
00:55:29 That said, let's say it was even down to 16 or $17 million per year,
00:55:33 and actual money.
00:55:35 Appreciable jump from Belichick, right?
00:55:37 I don't think Bill ever, maybe even initiates that conversation.
00:55:42 >> Yeah, and you know what?
00:55:43 I think that's absolutely important too, because it shows, like you said,
00:55:47 it's a different thought process, a different strategy.
00:55:50 Like Belichick's shortcomings in recent years were in a lot of
00:55:55 ways directly tied to his unwillingness to really over-exert
00:56:00 himself at premium positions, and especially wide receiver.
00:56:07 And I know things didn't work out for McDaniels and Ziegler with the Raiders.
00:56:11 But one of the first things they did was they took a big swing on Devante Adams.
00:56:14 And it was like, my goodness, these guys just came from New England, and
00:56:18 they are shaking the expatriate stuff off of them in a big way by going and
00:56:23 getting Adams.
00:56:24 I mean, you need big time receivers in this league at this point,
00:56:29 like you just do.
00:56:30 And you need to spend on them, or you need to devote premium assets to getting them.
00:56:37 Yes, there are exceptions.
00:56:38 Mahomes doesn't really necessarily have a number one receiver, but
00:56:43 he does have Travis Kelsey, who is more of a receiver than a tight end anyway.
00:56:48 But whatever, anyway, too far on that tangent.
00:56:52 I did remember what my second point was.
00:56:54 You mentioned PR missteps.
00:56:56 And look, first time head coaches are always gonna have them.
00:57:00 Whether it happens in their introductory press conference or
00:57:03 shortly thereafter.
00:57:04 I mean, I remember a year ago, people were criticizing Jonathan Gannon for
00:57:09 a bad introductory press conference.
00:57:11 And it looks like that guy knows how to coach.
00:57:13 And Nick Sirianni got a lot of criticism,
00:57:16 his introductory press conference in Philly.
00:57:18 That guy, I know it didn't end well for him last season, but
00:57:21 he's clearly proven that he knows how to coach too.
00:57:23 There are other ways.
00:57:26 Some coaches get in front of the media and they don't give you anything and
00:57:31 they get criticized for that.
00:57:32 And I'm not using Belichick as an example.
00:57:34 There are others around the league who currently have jobs,
00:57:37 who are also showing an ability to coach.
00:57:39 So missteps come in various forms.
00:57:43 Everybody's gonna say something that they're gonna regret in front of the media
00:57:47 at some point because it's new and you're letting loose and whatever.
00:57:51 Maybe you put your foot in your mouth.
00:57:52 Maybe you just say something that you wish you said a little bit differently.
00:57:56 And those are just lessons that first time head coaches all face.
00:58:01 I mean, Belichick has said this before,
00:58:04 you can always prepare yourself to be a head coach.
00:58:08 But you truly don't know what it's like until you're sitting in that chair and
00:58:11 these decisions.
00:58:12 You have to make a million decisions every single day.
00:58:15 And you're gonna be making a lot of them for the very first time or
00:58:18 you're gonna run into some type of adversity that you couldn't prepare for
00:58:21 because you just weren't used to dealing with it as a position coach or
00:58:26 a coordinator.
00:58:27 >> Right, and I wanna be clear again.
00:58:30 The last point I say about having a little bit more belief in this regime
00:58:33 started with for the sake of not agreeing with Jeff Howe.
00:58:37 This is not a proclamation of I think they're off to some phenomenal start or
00:58:41 I think the Patriots will be any better than five and 12 next year.
00:58:44 This is just to say, and from what I've heard and
00:58:47 from what you've seen, there's difference.
00:58:49 I think it leads positive.
00:58:50 And let's also be clear,
00:58:51 Devontae Adams did not lead to some giant big jump in wins over there.
00:58:55 I think from what I understand the front office was remade a lot more than
00:58:59 the coaching staff.
00:59:01 The bottom line is though, whether you take this newer approach that Elliott has,
00:59:05 the old one that Bill has, the bottom line is winning.
00:59:08 And whether it's their image issue, whether it's the quarterback or
00:59:10 the development, it's all interconnected.
00:59:12 It's all interdependent, and you need to win.
00:59:15 And we won't see anything until September.
00:59:17 In the meantime, we'll do things like true or false with seven,
00:59:19 eight Patriots statements and see how they come out.
00:59:22 But that's what it's going to be, okay?
00:59:24 PR missteps, all of this is secondary to see how they can build a team.
00:59:27 There are lots of ways of doing it.
00:59:28 There are a lot of approaches to free agency,
00:59:30 even if this feels similar and disappointingly so.
00:59:34 It could lead to something different and it certainly will in the draft because
00:59:37 the Patriots have not had a top three draft pick ever under Robert Kraft's
00:59:41 ownership or dating back to whenever.
00:59:43 Was Bledsoe, was the Bledsoe pick was not under him.
00:59:45 That was still the previous ownership, yeah?
00:59:47 >> Right, yep.
00:59:48 >> Thank you, okay.
00:59:49 All right, Jeff Howe, sealing the deal,
00:59:51 closing it there here for this episode of True or False.
00:59:54 We're gonna bring him back here on a separate YouTube exclusive.
00:59:58 I said five off the field, it might be 15.
01:00:00 It might just depend on the guests.
01:00:01 I don't know, we'll figure it out.
01:00:03 He's been Jeff Howe of the Athletic National NFL Insider.
01:00:07 Come find out our conversation about what it's like to be an insider on YouTube,
01:00:11 my new YouTube channel @_andrewpatelic.
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