Dr. Oz sits down with Jordan Peterson to talk about how Covid has destroyed the reputation of science. They touch on how mixing science and politics has brought conflict in beliefs among people especially during the pandemic.
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00:00 There's a revolution in my science to natural sciences and
00:04 I think COVID for many people has destroyed the reputation of science. Yes
00:11 Well, that's what happens when see
00:13 Because we haven't segregated out the religious and the political properly the political has become religious
00:19 And so now science is being drawn into the fray follow the science
00:22 The science does not tell you where to go. In fact, it's specifically designed not to do that
00:28 Right in its purest form science is a value free enterprise now
00:33 It can't be because you have to select the objects of study, right?
00:36 But having done that it's supposed to be as value free as possible
00:41 Which means that in some sense technically it is directionless
00:45 and so then when you hijack the science and you say this is what it tells us to do you
00:51 Politicize and you even make religious the science. Well, then people think well, I don't trust your politics or maybe your religion
00:58 Now I don't trust science. Well, that's not helpful at all. And part of that's abdication of responsibility
01:05 It's like the scientists aren't politicians. They can't balance the risks
01:09 It's like, you know, there are things we could do to make us safer from COVID in the short term
01:14 I presume maybe but what about the medium term and what about the long term?
01:18 and what about all the other issues the economic issues and the loneliness and the suicide and the breakdown of families and the
01:24 isolation and the theft of years from young people's lives
01:28 Well, that's a political issue and the science does not tell us what to do with that at all ever and to say that it is
01:35 Is to abdicate your responsibility and also to claim for your own beliefs all the virtues of science
01:42 You know, I've been saying that when you mix medicine and politics you get politics, right?
01:48 exactly, and I did a session actually it was a Vatican event and
01:52 I
01:54 Had a bunch of religious leaders who all happen to be doctors
01:57 And I asked them if they had been involved in any of these discussions. Mm-hmm and
02:03 I would have thought there'd be enough humbleness within politics or political leaders
02:08 I'll say that you would crutch a little bit on
02:11 belief systems that might actually influence how people saw the world when you're dealing with a
02:15 crisis like Kovu where you don't have all the answers and
02:18 That's not what happened
02:20 When decisions were made to shut down churches or to make a value judgment as you point out that scientists didn't have enough data on
02:26 You want to consult science?
02:28 But you don't want science making those decisions can't what that's not our that's not the day job
02:32 We're trained to make and then there became an an arrogant reliance on
02:37 What the science showed even though it was still a rapidly evolving process
02:42 And I think that's what's led to the dramatic it is a number of people who've refused back
02:47 See, of course it is so lots of people and they say all right, I'd take the vaccine except you're making me
02:52 It's like are you wrong? It's like I don't know. Are you wrong?
02:55 So what's more dangerous the government or the virus?
02:57 Well, it's a virus. It's well, that's because you are temperamentally inclined to believe in the solutions of government, but those other people aren't
03:05 And you're not they're not wrong
03:07 Because governments are dangerous, too
03:11 So there's no doubt that that's happening and it is going to cause widespread
03:15 Disaffection with science the climate issue is exactly the same thing
03:19 The science says follow the science follow the science or you're ignorant
03:24 follow
03:26 the science
03:28 That's your philosophy of science. Is it?
03:30 Are you sure it's the science we're following
03:34 and not your wish to allow your political beliefs with the science and
03:38 To prove that you're right with all the might of the scientific enterprise behind you
03:43 So how does that translate in the practice? You're the leader of our country?
03:47 You've got a virus coming your way. You see a communist country take a pretty draconian stance on it
03:53 and seem to have success, but you don't know because you don't know if what you're hearing is right and
03:57 All the scientists are telling you go right and no one's saying go left. So what's the rational approach?
04:05 Which is perhaps different from the right approach at the individual level it's
04:12 Try to clear your mind of unnecessary
04:15 Preoccupations and do what your conscience tells you and then we all have to talk. I
04:22 Don't know what the right move forward is. No, that's the right move the right strategy
04:27 I if there was a right move, I would hope you've told us I'm actually arguing for a a process a
04:34 Way of which is what you're so good at a way of understanding what the real questions are
04:38 well
04:39 I think part of what we have to contend with is the fact that if you have to force people to take medical action then
04:44 Your arguments were insufficient and that's your fault
04:48 If you can't entice people into that then you failed and you should examine
04:52 Reasons for your failure instead of increasing the force with which you're applying your arguments, you know
04:57 And I think it was maybe something like in Canada particularly because we had enough facts have enough vaccines for everyone. It's like
05:03 Here are the vaccines you have a choice. We think they work. We don't know everything about them, but they seem to work
05:10 You can get them whenever you want because you all you have to just go to your drugstore
05:15 We've made it as easy as it's possible to make it we're gonna open everything up
05:19 You take your chances after that and we hope that you protect yourself the way you see fit
05:23 And if you don't and you get sick, we'll still take care of you
05:26 Something like that I think
05:29 It's certainly not well, you know those anti-vaxxers to get what they deserve if they get sick
05:34 It's not that that's for sure and forcing people to take medical action
05:38 I mean, I know this is a complicated debate, but I don't see it. I
05:43 See it causing more problems than it's going to surprise at how
05:46 Easily so many gave up
05:49 their
05:51 rights to decide for themselves and
05:54 likewise the number of people who are
05:58 Absolutely resistant to moving forward even when there is a fair amount of data supporting for example that getting a vaccine
06:04 You know, probably long term least short term. I'll say probably your best interest. Mm-hmm. Those groups seem pretty steeled
06:11 Well, I think it's a reflection of all the underlying political problems that we've been discussing
06:15 It's just manifesting itself in this particular crisis, you know with regards to the initial lockdowns
06:20 It's a herd move in some sense. It's like there's a chaos in crisis. What is this endemic this pandemic how serious it is?
06:28 well, the Chinese moved first, it's like
06:30 One animal got spooked and we all followed in the midst of this crisis and you know, that's understandable
06:36 I think and but then there's time for sober secondary reflection. It's like oh, yeah. What about our civil liberties? Yeah. Yeah. What about them?
06:44 the anger against people who rethought that first step just seemed
06:49 Dramatically more than I as a scientist would have expected in part because I realized the science wasn't as solid you couldn't be arrogantly
06:57 Criticizing a country's effort to do their best for their citizens
07:02 Based on the science right this happened. For example with Sweden
07:06 I'm not even gonna judge whether it was the right thing or the wrong thing
07:07 But you know to my view and as a scientist the more different ways people try right?
07:12 Well, that's a process isn't it is to allow for variability in the response and then to evaluate that is what scientists do
07:19 Yes, it was a suffocation of that process which caught me off guard
07:22 That strike you at just as a student as a student of the world we live in
07:27 Well, I do think it's it's predictable in some sense given our current political situation
07:32 It's it's it's the contamination of politics with religious
07:36 With what should be religious presuppositions and that intensifies everything to a tremendous degree
07:42 and a hundred years ago when
07:45 There was a boom after the Spanish influenza. Mm-hmm, which led to in some countries
07:51 Or at least it was at the time when the Soviets took charge
07:57 Communism in Russia and ten years later, you know, actually Nazis were already rising in 20s
08:01 But you know ten years later with Hitler could truly come into power
08:03 There were experiments done which are seems similar to what's happening now in some parts of the world including here
08:10 Now those lessons don't seem to have been remembered very well, yeah, well opponents to
08:16 this insistence upon a certain course of medical treatment
08:21 You know, they have those sorts of things in mind and those are the people who are perhaps more afraid of governmental overreach than of the virus itself
08:29 You know, there's an app I discussed with John Anderson who was the deputy prime minister of Australia several decades ago during a very effective administration
08:38 He's a very solid person in my estimation
08:40 You know, we talked about that app
08:43 They have in Australia that enables you to take a photograph of yourself and specify your location to the authorities
08:49 It's like it is by no means obvious that that app is less dangerous than the virus
08:53 So
08:57 Now, you know you point that out and people get mad because they you're in some sense
09:01 You're forcing them to rethink things and that's really annoying people hate that once they've made a decision
09:06 They hate having to rethink it and no wonder and then there's all these
09:10 Underground issues that are happening. So you your objection gets tossed into the bass, you know
09:16 the bad mouth things of the basket of deplorables, let's say
09:19 so
09:21 We can't have a we can't have an uncondemnated discussion of this. I
09:25 Don't know if was as accidental as sometimes it seems and Stalin's real name wasn't Stalin right?
09:31 Stalin means the man of steel he picked on purpose and he never believed in convincing people
09:37 He believed in tempering people. That's what a steel man does you temper the steel?
09:42 Yeah, Mao believed that you would condition people so they would naturally think
09:47 What you think they should think so you don't have to bother convincing them
09:51 I think a lot of people who are resistant are fearful that the people of our countries are being conditioned to think
09:58 Yeah, that's right. They're afraid of the underlying
10:00 Ever-present totalitarian impulse sure that that's what they're afraid of. Yeah, it's not even the government because if you know, I
10:05 Almost sudden right now. There was a draconian government that came into power people would revolt
10:10 but a few years from now, right it's that impulse and it's and it's
10:14 Potential for manifesting itself incrementally, of course, that's what they're afraid of definitely, you know
10:21 And the more conspiratorially minded people are more afraid of that than everyone else and you know, and are they wrong?
10:27 Well, probably but maybe not right. That's the thing
10:30 It's the more extreme beliefs are probably not true
10:32 but sometimes they are and
10:35 So so paint me the picture what happens if we don't address this if we don't actually have a awakening within academia and our culture
10:42 We get a chronic pandemic and an increasingly authoritarian government at the same time