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- #SyrmaSGSTechnologies saw its margins contract
Find out what's happening in trade so far with Hersh Sayta and Smriti Chaudhary on Market IQ. #NDTVProfitLive
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TVTranscript
00:00 Nifty trades flat around the 21 900 mark slips from opening highs meanwhile Sensex trades
00:10 above the 72 300 mark up around 200 points.
00:17 And all sectoral indices in green except for tech and autos.
00:21 IT top sector laggard realty pack building gains top sectoral gain up 2%.
00:30 Its stock of TRF hits the upper circuit after it calls off merger with Tata Steel sees business
00:36 performance improve in the last few quarters as well.
00:40 Paytm continues to gain for second straight session.
00:44 The stock has hit upper circuit in early trade currently trading with gains of almost 9%.
00:53 Shares of Britannia fall over 1% as regional players give tough competition eat into its
00:58 business.
00:59 Profit there 40%.
01:03 And brokers body president Vijay Mehta tells NDTV profit that an extension to trading hours
01:09 of derivatives was unanimously approved in a board meeting.
01:13 That's an NDTV profit exclusive.
01:25 Hello and welcome.
01:26 You're watching market IQ on NDTV profit.
01:29 I'm Smriti Chaudhary and with me is Harsh Saita.
01:32 And for the next 30 minutes we'll bring you all that's happening in the markets at noon.
01:37 Let's take a quick look at the markets.
01:40 Well, we started on a very strong note above 22,000 but now we have slipped into red for
01:46 the benchmarks.
01:47 Nifty 50 is trading 1/10th of a percent down at this juncture.
01:53 If you look at the broader markets continue to trade in green mid cap index up about 3/10th
01:59 of a percent and nifty small cap up about half a percent in trade.
02:04 Now, let's also look at some of the gainers within the nifty 50.
02:09 The biggest gainer today is SBI that's up about 3 and a half percent in trade.
02:15 And if you look at the other gainers, we have JSW Steel that's also up about 2 and a half
02:20 percent.
02:21 SBI, I'm sorry, up 3 and a half percent followed by JSW Steel that's up 2 and a half percent.
02:26 There's Britannia that came out with its results also up about 2 percent.
02:30 We have Nestle also that we recently saw the results, the share is up about 1 percent thereabouts.
02:40 So, a little bit of a positive in the FMCG sector even though there is still concerns
02:46 around rural demand.
02:48 Now, let's look at some of the losers as well.
02:51 We have ITPAC that's leading, that's the biggest laggard today actually with the infi down
02:57 about 2 percent in trade, Power Grid down about 1 and a half percent followed by TCS
03:02 also down about 1.3 percent.
03:05 If you look at the breadth of the market, if we can get the advances and the declines,
03:11 we'll be able to see if you – in the morning we started with – we started pretty strong
03:16 with the advances kind of taking over and in the middle it was pretty much flat as a
03:23 pancake as one of our colleagues said in the newsroom and now it's still kind of in favor
03:29 of advances but it has kind of closed down between the two, the gap has closed down.
03:35 So that's where we are on the market front, Harsh.
03:40 Well absolutely Smriti.
03:42 It's a mixed sort of day but it's something that we'll take home after the kind of week
03:47 that we've had last week as well as on Monday and Tuesday.
03:51 But let's quickly move on.
03:53 Top headline within the M&A space, TRF has actually called off its merger with parent
03:58 company Tata Steel.
03:59 TRF shares on the back of that announcement have risen 20 percent and Varsha Chandani
04:05 is going to bring us all that's happening and what's really pushing the stock higher,
04:10 in fact 20 percent higher.
04:12 Varsha, talk to us about what's happening in this space.
04:15 So hi Harsh.
04:16 As you rightly said, company has shares at 20 percent.
04:21 Now this is after the calling off merger with Tata Steel.
04:24 Now if you see, this announcement was made somewhere in September 22 and since then Tata
04:30 Steel has been providing operational and financial support through infusion of funds in TRF.
04:37 Now Tata Steel says that TRF is witnessing a turnaround in its business performance so
04:42 amalgamation may not be needed.
04:44 But from the TRF perspective you see, when merger was announced, the swap ratio was unfavorable.
04:50 Like TRF shareholders would have got 17 shares of Tata Steel for every 10 shares held.
04:57 So considering the yesterday's current closing price, if you see, shareholders would have
05:03 lost 10 percent if this deal were to be happened.
05:08 Thank you Varsha for that.
05:10 TRF is hitting upper circuit but we have another stock EIH that is also locked in upper circuit
05:17 and that is after it posted strong set of third quarter numbers.
05:21 Anushi is here joining us to tell us a little bit about what the numbers are, how does it
05:29 look like.
05:30 Anushi, please decode the numbers for us for EIH.
05:33 Right.
05:34 So as you mentioned that the stock did hit the upper circuit which is like a 20 percent
05:38 gain but it has cooled off from those early day gains.
05:41 Now it's like trading at about still it's seeing a handsome gain of about 15 percent
05:45 but this was on the back of the Q3 numbers which came out wherein it posted a strong
05:50 set of numbers beating the market expectations with the revenue seeing about a 26 percent
05:55 upside to 741 crores and even the EBITDA and margins over here is on special focus with
06:02 margins inching up to about 811 basis points to 43 percent compared to 35 percent earlier.
06:10 Same with the net profit.
06:11 Net profit also saw about a 52 percent uptick.
06:13 So just to analyze what was happening we can see that the occupancy was up by about 2 percent
06:19 to 79 percent compared to 77 percent earlier.
06:23 Supporting this was the average room realization in the hotel industries which is seeing a
06:28 stronger growth with the ARRs that's the average rate realization rising up to 19 percent at
06:34 19000 which if we factor the occupancy those two factors have brought in the REF par about
06:41 23 percent up.
06:44 Also now if we are to just look at overall what the company has been doing one of the
06:49 key strategies that they are adopting is the debt reduction over the few quarters.
06:53 So they have been in the net cash positive status since June 22 and we have seen that
07:00 right now if you look at the net cash that stands at about 684 crore compared to 256
07:06 crore.
07:07 Again for future what remains on the radar is the company's strong expansion plans wherein
07:12 they plan to add about 50 hotels by calendar year 2030 and still the foreign travel influence
07:20 that the number is still lagging the pre-COVID level so that can again add to another growth
07:26 opportunity for the business.
07:28 So overall the stock performance just to end on that note the one year return has been
07:33 143 percent for EIH limited.
07:36 So definitely a strong focus on this one.
07:39 Right thanks for that Anushi.
07:40 It's been a day where everyone is looking at earnings and that's been the focus.
07:46 I want to quickly flag off how Trent is doing in trade because they've come out with their
07:51 numbers very strong said you can see the spike on the stock at almost 7 plus percent higher
07:55 as we speak was up 8 percent a few minutes back.
08:00 Quickly with regard to the revenue it's come in around 15 to 20 percent higher than expectations.
08:04 EBITDA has actually doubled up.
08:07 We've seen margins also go up by around 400 basis points on a year on year basis.
08:11 Very strong set of numbers and profit after tax has more than doubled I think from around
08:16 150 kind of crore number.
08:18 It's come up to around 370 crore number on a year on year basis.
08:23 So we've seen very strong numbers come in from Trent of course Nestle as well disclosed
08:27 its numbers that stock in focus as well.
08:29 If you can quickly pull up the charts and understand where there you go a bit of a spike
08:34 on Nestle as well.
08:35 So both of those stocks on the back of numbers seem to be buzzing.
08:40 Frontline stocks.
08:41 We'll of course as details start pouring in we will quickly give you a review on Trent
08:45 as well.
08:46 But the other stock we're going to be focusing on is WeMart.
08:49 That one also is up roughly 5 percent on the back of very good set of numbers now three.
08:56 Now just to kind of break this down net profit jumped over 40 percent.
09:00 Mahima is here to add more.
09:03 Give us context Mahima what's exactly happened with regard to WeMart.
09:06 Right Harsh.
09:07 So as you rightly mentioned the net profit has jumped over 40 percent and also sequentially
09:12 after three quarters WeMart has recorded a net profit overall.
09:17 Last three quarters it was running into net losses.
09:20 So that is why the stock has been in focus today.
09:23 If we talk about the numbers overall revenue has gone up by 14 percent EBITDA has gone
09:28 up by 15 percent.
09:29 And what has led to this growth.
09:31 WeMart has witnessed a very good festive demand season because of which the footfall grew
09:37 by over 23 percent and also their like to like sales has grown by 4 percent.
09:43 Overall 20 new stores were added in Q3 and their Lime Road has also reduced its losses
09:50 by 29 percent sequentially which has worked for WeMart in this quarter.
09:55 And overall if you see other expenses have gone up by 25 percent.
09:59 However the working capital has significantly improved and decreased and inventory has been
10:06 decreased by 12 percent.
10:08 So overall the picture for WeMart for this quarter looks very good.
10:14 Thanks so much for that context Mahima.
10:16 WeMart on the back of that 3 percent higher.
10:19 Coming back to Trent we had a profit estimate of 260 crore that's a substantial beat that
10:25 Trent has delivered to profits.
10:27 Margins were expected to be around 16 and a half odd percent.
10:31 It's coming at 18 plus percent.
10:32 So definitely that 6 percent uptick seems to be justified at least as we speak.
10:37 Very very strong numbers.
10:38 Of course we'll have to wait for management commentary to come through.
10:42 But a 50 percent growth in revenue.
10:44 Very good set of numbers coming in and the stock reaction justifying that.
10:48 For sure we'll be tracking the trend and what the management says and we'll bring you all
10:54 those details.
10:55 But shifting focus to brokers body the Association of National Exchanges members of India approved
11:02 extension of trading hours of derivative segment.
11:05 Saloni Kothari joins in with more details on this.
11:08 Saloni what are you picking up on this?
11:10 Right Smriti.
11:11 So brokers have now agreed to send a combined recommendation to SEBI.
11:15 Now why this is important is because last month SEBI chairperson had said and even brokers
11:21 association they have said that they were having issues to come up with proper recommendations.
11:25 They were facing issues from the small brokers also with respect to resolution of operational
11:31 matters as in how operational it would work for big brokers as well as small brokers and
11:37 also related to margin which would arise post the introduction of these extension of hours
11:42 and also issues related to the price settlement which needs to be sorted out.
11:46 So all this according to and we spoke to Vijay Mehta also who is the president of ANMI.
11:51 So he said that all this have been discussed properly and now they will send these recommendations
11:56 to SEBI.
11:57 Now this doesn't mean that obviously the proposal is done and we will be soon having
12:02 an extension of hours.
12:03 The SEBI now will obviously review and they will have a consultation paper and then after
12:07 that they will also take investors and public feedback on that and only after that will
12:11 we see what actually happens from there and also we will await what exactly recommendations
12:16 point by point are the brokers trying to make and if it actually makes sense or not.
12:19 All right.
12:20 Thank you Saloni for that.
12:22 Saloni just point out that this does not mean that this proposal has been approved.
12:26 They have just given recommendation there is going to be a consultation paper then there
12:30 are going to be public comments and then it may come into play or it will be implemented.
12:36 But we will slip into a short break for now and we will bring you more updates on the
12:41 other side.
12:42 Stay tuned.
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15:54 Welcome back.
15:55 You are watching Market IQ here on NDTV Profit.
15:57 Thanks for staying tuned with us.
15:59 You know we continue to focus on stocks in this particular segment where we give you
16:03 more insights on what's happening and you know we will switch focus to go fashion.
16:08 The revenue has surged 15% in the third quarter and on the other hand you've seen net profit
16:13 of the company dip by 4% in Q3.
16:17 My colleague Alex spoke to Gautam Saraogi who is the ED and CEO of Go Fashion India and
16:24 began by asking him the key highlights of the third quarter.
16:27 Listen in to that particular piece.
16:30 This has been a good quarter for us.
16:33 We reported a good top line growth of 15% on a YOY basis.
16:37 In fact, this quarter we've also seen an increase in our gross margins.
16:41 We've seen 100-150 groups increase in our gross margins.
16:45 However, our operating margins have taken a small hit this time around.
16:50 That's largely because of our same store sales growth being flattish.
16:54 And because our same store sales growth has been flattish, the cost in those historical
16:59 stores have been slightly higher this quarter as a percentage of revenue.
17:04 That's why we've seen our operating margins taking a hit to the extent of 200-250 bps.
17:10 What you're saying is that the new stores that you're opening are effectively more efficient
17:16 than the earlier stores?
17:18 Is that how to understand this?
17:20 No, no.
17:21 That's not the right way of looking at it.
17:24 See, the new store, usually when we open a new store, it goes through a maturity period.
17:29 So, the new stores that we've opened during this quarter have done fairly well.
17:34 It's just that the historical stores that we have have not seen a big revenue jump on
17:39 a YOY basis.
17:40 It's been flattish.
17:41 And that's why the cost in some stores has been higher.
17:44 Understood.
17:45 But there is quite a substantial increase in the number of stores you're introducing
17:49 as well.
17:50 As I understand it, you are planning to add as many as 120-130 every year.
17:56 What is the kind of cost that you're setting aside to set this up?
18:00 And how many are you planning to open in the last quarter?
18:04 So, see, our original plan for this year was about 120-125 stores.
18:09 We will be falling short of that a little.
18:12 So, we would be ending up with 100-110 stores net additions this year.
18:18 Last year, we had opened about 120-125 stores.
18:21 For a very long time, we've been opening 120 stores every year.
18:26 We feel there's a large runway for the number of stores we can add.
18:29 Today, we are at about 700 stores.
18:31 As a brand, we see opportunity of having more than 1500 GoColor stores across the country.
18:35 So, keeping that large vision of number of stores in mind, I think 120-plus stores a
18:40 year is a good healthy number for us in terms of additions.
18:43 You've explained it.
18:45 That was the management of GoFashion talking about how they'll fall short of store openings
18:50 this year.
18:52 And we also spoke to Adani Gas Management, Satyendra Pal, about the current status of
19:01 the company's projects and the growth outlook.
19:04 Here's a slice of that conversation.
19:08 We've made a very strong start to our business in Dhamra, not least because of the enormous
19:15 amount of effort and experience that people put into this project.
19:19 Since the time we last met, we have stabilized our operations.
19:25 We've imported 15 commercial cargoes till date.
19:29 I think 10 from Gale, 5 from IOCL.
19:32 We are at about 52% capacity utilization in the first year, which, if my numbers are correct,
19:39 makes us the second most utilized terminal in India this year.
19:45 Given you have already got 15 cargoes, what are your plans and what's the kind of demand
19:51 you foresee for your terminal?
19:54 Vikas, it is quite instructive to note that Dhamra is the closest LNG terminal for 35%
20:03 of India's population.
20:04 We are the only terminal in Eastern India.
20:07 And with the unification of gas tariff in the pipeline by PNGRB last year, we are really
20:14 very well placed to definitely service the Eastern market, but also the Northern and
20:19 soon the Southern markets, which will be connected.
20:22 This, coupled with the fact that there has been a softening, a considerable softening
20:26 in global LNG prices in the last few months, and of course, the Honorable Prime Minister's
20:33 vision, which he reiterated today, of increasing the share of natural gas in our primary energy
20:37 mix to 15% very soon.
20:40 All of these three factors actually are very good factors for us when we are looking to
20:48 grow our business.
20:49 I see a very robust role for gas, in particular LNG, in the coming months, and that is going
20:56 to be a step towards decarbonizing our entire industrial sector, and also will be in the
21:05 long term more economical, because LNG is definitely going to be cheaper than some of
21:10 the liquid fuels it will replace.
21:12 Who are our main customers, main buyers of the cargo that we are getting?
21:17 Is it only getting consumed on the Eastern front of the country, or you're also looking
21:21 at Northern and Southern India?
21:23 Yeah, thanks Vikas.
21:26 As you know, our capacity has been subscribed to by Indian Oil and Gale.
21:32 As I understand, Indian Oil is taking this LNG for use in its refineries primarily.
21:38 Gale, of course, is also taking it to service its demand in the fertilizer sector, and also
21:45 other customers.
21:46 Most of the gas at present is being consumed in the Eastern part of India, but there have
21:52 been instances where the gas has actually also flowed to the North.
21:56 There are no technical constraints to more gas being flowing to the North, and as the
22:02 throughput increases, we fully expect LNG from Dhamra to find its way not just to the
22:07 Northern parts, but also the Southern parts, of course, in addition to the Eastern sector.
22:11 That was the management of Adani Total Gas, but Bascon Engineers just came out with its
22:17 results, and the stock is down about 5%.
22:20 If you look at the results, the revenue is up 10% to 280 crore.
22:26 If you look at the EBITDA, that's up 27%.
22:30 Margin also increased to 9.6% versus 8.3% in the last year, like the corresponding quarter
22:37 of last year.
22:38 Net profit also up 14%.
22:40 However, market reacting very sharply to it, Harsh.
22:43 The stock is already down over 5% in trade.
22:46 Absolutely, under some amount of pressure there, Bascon Engineering.
22:49 Quickly switching focus though, Vikas also spoke with Ashu Singhal, the MD of Mahanagar
22:56 Gas, about the company's expansion plans and capacity building.
22:59 Listen in to a slice of that.
23:01 We have already recently commissioned one LNG retail outlet at Savroli, which is on
23:07 Bombay-Pune Highway.
23:08 And last year we have formed a joint venture company with Baidinath LNG, which is a 51%
23:16 stake of Mahanagar and 49% of Baidinath.
23:20 So, we plan to put up six stations in one calendar year or so.
23:26 So, the acquisition, the land acquisition and other processes are already on.
23:32 And we expect that within one year we will be able to commission six more stations.
23:38 The capacity typically is that depends on the tanks we put.
23:43 It can be 20,000 kiloliter or 20,000 liter capacity tank or a 50,000 liter capacity tank.
23:51 So, we have to design and depends on the potential market there that we design the outlet.
23:59 So, who are the potential buyers for this kind of LNG that we look at?
24:03 See, there can be several buyers because heavy trucks like which operate on a circulate route,
24:11 like cement factories or fertilizer factories where the truck pick up the luggage and goes
24:18 to the destination and come back.
24:20 Mining is one such application.
24:22 Typically, LNG can replace diesel in the long haul because one fill of LNG can run almost
24:29 up to 900 kilometers of distance.
24:32 And it is cleaner as compared to diesel.
24:34 So, potentially we are looking at a market which is currently being handled by diesel.
24:39 So, that can be replaced by LNG.
24:41 So, have you already tied up with such players who are going to be customers or it's like
24:47 as you come, serve basis?
24:49 Already we have signed contracts with Greenline who are applying LNG trucks.
24:55 So, they are picking up LNG from our Sabaroli station.
24:58 Around four tons per day sale is happening from Sabaroli.
25:03 Going forward when we are, Maha LNG is the new company's name which will be installing
25:07 more stations.
25:08 So, in that localized area, we will see which are the companies.
25:12 So, Greenline can be one more potential.
25:14 Concord is another one and few more companies directly we will contact that whosoever is
25:20 interested, we will sign the contracts with them.
25:22 By when you see this company to contribute to your total turnover?
25:29 It's a small company, new initiative.
25:32 It may take some time, maybe two, three years, but the revenue generation will start after
25:38 completion and commissioning of these stations.
25:40 So, maybe two years down the line, we expect that some revenue will start generating from
25:44 this company.
25:45 Right.
25:46 So, those were some conversations that we had with managements as well, but that's all
25:52 we have on the show for today.
25:54 Stay tuned to NDTV Profit.
25:55 Thanks for watching Market IQ from myself, Smriti.
25:58 Everyone who puts the show together, thanks so much for watching.
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29:20 Hi, thanks so much for joining in.
29:27 You're watching The Mutual Fund, a show on NDTV Profit.
29:30 My name is Alex Matthew.
29:31 Like the name suggests, this show gets you actionable insight
29:34 on everything related to mutual funds.
29:37 And often we talk about the way that mutual funds are managed as well.
29:41 So today, one of the primary focuses is going to be a potential change,
29:46 something that might just be in the works,
29:49 and how that will change portfolio construction
29:52 or approach to portfolio construction by fund managers.
29:55 We're joined by Chirag Mehta, who's the CIO of Quantum AMC,
30:00 and we will soon be joined by Nikhil Kothari,
30:03 who's the Director at Etika Wealth.
30:05 Chirag, thanks so much for taking the time,
30:07 and pleasure speaking with you on NDTV Profit.
30:10 Thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here.
30:12 So we're having what is very obviously a hypothetical conversation right now
30:17 because there is a source-based report out there
30:20 that suggests that there might just be a bid or a suggestion
30:24 by the industry to the regulator to reclassify the market capitalizations
30:31 and the definitions of large cap and mid cap.
30:35 Currently, you have large cap as defined as the first 100 stocks
30:40 and mid cap as the next 150 stocks.
30:44 But the reasoning that has been given is that
30:47 we've seen a significant rise in the market since COVID-19 lows,
30:51 and what was a large cap then is in fact a mid cap right now.
30:56 So what I'm trying to understand in this conversation is
30:59 would this materially change the way that you approach portfolio construction?
31:04 Why is this a requirement? So that's the first question, Chirag.
31:08 Yeah, so the argument you just laid out that, you know,
31:12 given that some large caps would have become mid caps.
31:16 So from that construct perspective, still it is a subset of 100 stocks, right?
31:21 A large cap is still 100 stocks, mid cap is still 150 stocks.
31:24 So number of stocks may have moved from one end of the curve
31:28 to the second end, but overall still the subset remains 100 and 150 stocks
31:33 in each category. The issue is that large cap funds have a restriction
31:40 of 80% to be held in large cap stocks.
31:43 And therefore, given that there is a churn, for example, last year,
31:48 we saw a churn of 14% moving from large cap to mid caps,
31:52 which from that perspective leaves little room for fund managers
31:57 to have enough flexibility to kind of rebalance their portfolios.
32:01 So there will be some say 3% to 5% cash for liquidity purposes held by the fund.
32:06 There will be churn that will result into that 14% impact
32:11 in terms of changes in allocation.
32:14 So to meet that 80% threshold becomes to that extent difficult
32:19 when market dynamics are pushing a lot many stocks from large cap to mid caps.
32:24 So I think from a large cap perspective, there is a need to have more,
32:29 some more flexibility moving into the threshold levels,
32:34 like 80% is a high threshold level to achieve when market dynamics
32:39 are changing very, very fast. In years when you have churn ratios
32:44 of 2% to 5%, probably that's easier. But when you have churn ratios
32:48 which are very high because of market cap changes, that leads to,
32:52 you know, re-looking at the classification.
32:56 But however, for mid and small cap funds, there is a leeway of 35%.
33:00 So from that perspective, there is enough wiggle room for these funds
33:04 to maneuver out and ensure that they meet those thresholds.
33:08 But for large caps, probably there is a room or a merit in re-looking
33:12 at the classification the way it's given.
33:15 So if you do hypothetically change the classification and you have,
33:20 instead of 100 stocks, you increase it to 125 for argument's sake.
33:25 Chirag, from my perspective, the challenge of that would then be
33:30 how do you benchmark it? Because right now you have a lot of funds
33:34 in the large cap actively managed space that benchmark to the BSE 100.
33:40 But if you change the base or the pool from which you choose the stocks
33:46 to 125, would benchmarking then become difficult?
33:51 Not really, because if you see, benchmark is just a barometer
33:56 of what that space is doing, right? So if you have a pool of 125
34:01 and you benchmark 200, still it occupies much of the market cap
34:05 that lies in the 125, maybe leaving around 10% away, you know,
34:10 additional for the 25 stocks. So overall, you still will be capturing
34:14 90% plus of the market cap, even if you compare the pool of 125.
34:20 Similarly goes for, for example, small cap. Small cap has about
34:25 maybe 3,000, 4,000 stocks and you are benchmarking to 250 stocks.
34:30 Is that good enough or not? So I think benchmark acts just as a barometer
34:35 and 125 stocks benchmark to 100 stock index, I think that still justifies
34:41 because it captures much of the market caps available there.
34:44 Okay. So I think that more or less covers that topic.
34:47 But while I have you with me, and this is something that I like to do
34:51 with all of the representatives of funds that speak to us on this particular program,
34:57 is to try and understand how your portfolio construction works.
35:01 Would you be able to describe the ethos that you follow when you're selecting
35:06 your stocks? Sure. And I will relate it to the topic that we are discussing.
35:13 Much of the requirement for flexibility emerges when you have, say,
35:21 funds AUM rising much more than the market cap and liquidity of the underlying pool
35:26 that you're tracking. For example, the mid and small cap have, you know,
35:30 increased the fund size have increased by about 250 to 350 percent anywhere in that range.
35:37 Whereas if you see the market caps of these companies have only risen by about 230 percent.
35:43 So that is the last four years. So if you were to look at why these flexibility
35:50 requirements are emerging now is because, you know, the fund sizes have crossed
35:56 the capacity levels to some extent of which they can deliver a meaningful portfolio,
36:02 keeping into consideration the market cap and liquidity requirements that are needed for
36:07 managing these strategies. And that is where you have that ask, you know,
36:12 to re-look at the classifications. So at Quantum, we are very, very aware of the market cap
36:18 and liquidity criteria. So in our large cap oriented offerings,
36:23 we kind of look at liquidity as one of the first criteria to filter out stocks.
36:28 So any stock that trades only a million dollars a day on a liquidity over the last 12 months
36:36 is only included in the universe that we track so that we can scale the fund
36:43 to a size without compromising the portfolio characteristics of the fund.
36:47 Another thing that we look at is governance is a very important criteria.
36:53 If governance is not up to mark, we would not invest into those companies.
36:58 And thirdly, from a valuation standpoint, it should make sense in terms of the upside
37:02 it leaves on the table after normalizing the numbers over a period of time,
37:06 because in a bull market, it's easier to get carried away.
37:09 Whereas if you normalize numbers, probably it gives you a realistic picture.
37:12 So those are the things that we look at liquidity, governance and valuations
37:17 as a predetermined factors that should tick when we select a stock.
37:22 So that gives me an overarching framework. But when you look at the market,
37:26 and this is essentially my last question right now. If you look at the valuation picture right now,
37:33 are you sanguine? Are you comfortable? Are you holding more cash in your portfolios right now?
37:39 And will that be your approach in the near term?
37:43 Yes, so valuations are getting expensive by the day as markets keep moving up.
37:48 Companies are delivering good in terms of earnings growth.
37:52 So we are seeing that support from the market and therefore long term.
37:55 If you look at the P/E ratios of index are slightly above only over the long term averages.
38:02 But given that we are bottom up stock pickers and we look at stock specific ideas,
38:07 we still see some room for our portfolio to provide some upside in stocks.
38:13 So yet we haven't increased our cash levels as yet because cash is just a residual of our process.
38:20 And we still see upside in our stock. So we are staying put at this point in time.
38:24 But if markets keep rising, probably we'll be compared to sell because there will be no upside left into those stocks.
38:30 And therefore our cash levels may rise. But at this point in time,
38:34 we are still looking at more upsides from our portfolio companies.
38:38 Fantastic. Chirag, thanks so much for joining us on the Mutual Fund Show. Pleasure speaking with you.
38:43 All right. And by the way, Nikhil is joining the interim. Nikhil, thanks so much for joining us.
38:48 We will have a conversation about arbitrage funds as related to systematic transfer plans,
38:56 because as Chirag just pointed out, valuations in certain pockets are getting just a tad bit stretched.
39:04 So we will take that up after a very quick break. Viewers do stay with us.
39:33 Thank you.
39:46 Thank you.
40:15 Thank you.
40:43 Thank you.
41:11 Thank you.
41:39 Thank you.
42:07 Thank you.
42:23 Welcome back. You're watching the Mutual Fund Show.
42:25 Now, a few market watchers have pointed out that valuations in certain pockets of the equity market are a little stretched.
42:33 Now, from the perspective of a retail investor, then you need to be a little bit cautious when you're deploying large sums of money.
42:40 How do you maneuver in this scenario? You usually use an instrument or rather a method of deploying funds called the systematic transfer plan
42:54 that allows you to invest in a particular scheme of a mutual fund, which then deploys funds periodically into another scheme of that same fund.
43:04 That's the definition of a systematic transfer plan. We'll talk about how you should employ this and in which situations you should employ this.
43:11 To talk about this in more detail, I've got Nikhil Kothari of Etika Wealth joining in.
43:16 Nikhil, thanks so much for joining us on the Mutual Fund Show.
43:19 I do want to start before I get into STPs and how you use it. I want to get into the fund that you use to use that STP,
43:28 which is traditionally a liquid fund or a fixed income fund.
43:32 But the taxation or the tax treatment of these fixed income funds has changed.
43:38 So from that perspective, should you rather use an arbitrage fund because of the tax advantage and what do you need to bear in mind?
43:45 So the first question is, what is an arbitrage fund?
43:49 So arbitrage fund, as the name speaks, gets an arbitrage opportunity.
43:54 They may be in price difference. So basically on last Thursday of every month, the future market price and the cash market price become same.
44:02 So what arbitrage fund does is that they buy in cash market and immediately sell in future market.
44:07 And what is the difference is the return which they will make.
44:10 And in the last few months, what we have seen is that the spread, the rollover spread has increased and arbitrage fund are giving return upward of liquid fund returns also.
44:21 And since when the markets are volatile, you get a lot of arbitrage opportunity.
44:25 And arbitrage fund keeps on deploying in those opportunities and making a return, which is a risk free return if you hold the position for the whole one month.
44:34 So there's no risk on the downside and it gives you a risk free return if the fund holds the position for one complete month.
44:41 Understood. Now, the question I need to ask is that because the management of the arbitrage fund is in the equity markets and you're talking about buying in cash and selling in futures.
44:55 So therefore, the underlying is equity. The question is, is there a risk of capital loss?
45:02 And is that something to worry about at all? And what is the degree of volatility of returns that you will get from an arbitrage fund?
45:09 What impacts that return?
45:12 Okay, so basically see, as I discussed that what they do is that, say for example, the cash market price, Reliance Shares is trading at 3000 rupees.
45:21 And future market price, so let me say, last Thursday of the month and the future market price is 3100 rupees.
45:28 So what the fund manager does is that he buys in 3000 and immediately place an order to sell on futures market in 3100 rupees on last Thursday of every month.
45:37 On last Thursday of every month, what was the price? If example price goes to 3500, he makes 500 rupees profit in the cash market.
45:44 He makes loss of 400 rupees in the futures market and overall his gain is 100 rupees, which is logged in when he did the transaction.
45:51 So in a whole month, if the positions are rolled over, there is no concern of making a capital loss.
45:58 But during the month, what can happen is that the future market price can go up and can go down and the cash market price also fluctuate.
46:05 So because of that, in between, arbitrage fund may show you some volatility in terms of return.
46:10 But if you hold for the whole company, when the position gets closed in last Thursday of every month, the cash market price and future market price become same.
46:16 And whatever price you have done the transaction, the first day gets logged in the same thing.
46:22 So you don't make any capital loss if you hold the position for the complete one month.
46:26 So you don't have to worry about the loss of principal.
46:28 What you need to worry about the interim volatility because if you say, for example, invested in only invested for 15 days, you may see some volatility in the return.
46:36 But over a one month period, you get return in line with your liquid fund returns.
46:40 OK, but at the same time, the tax treatment is equity, right?
46:44 So what does one need to bear in mind?
46:47 Usually it's short term capital gains, right?
46:50 So, yeah. So if you're doing STPs of short period of time, then basically you will be redeeming all your money in less than one year.
46:56 So in that case, it becomes a short term capital gain and you only pay 15 percent tax on that.
47:00 OK, but if you're doing long term STPs, and say, for example, two years, three years, OK, a lot of people like to right now get money for 15 months and 20 months to do STPs.
47:09 In that case, the work of money is invested in arbitrage to do.
47:12 And if it completes after one year and then you do the redemption, when you do the STPs, that tax rate will only be 10 percent.
47:17 So effectively, you pay 15 percent or 10 percent as compared to a debt fund where you pay 30 percent if you fall in the highest tax bracket or if you fall in the even higher tax bracket, you pay 30 to 40 percent tax as per your minor tax rates.
47:29 Got it. Let's also talk about STPs and the use of STPs.
47:34 It's not necessary that it is always beneficial to do STPs. And of course, you know, this SIP Sahi Hai campaign, I think, has been bought into by a very large number of people.
47:45 It has worked as well. STPs are more nuanced approach, wouldn't you say?
47:49 So what, according to you, is the ideal window in which you should deploy using STPs and in which scenarios should you use STPs?
47:59 Is the current scenario something that is appropriate?
48:02 So STP is basically, SIP is a different concept also, because I earn every month, I need to invest every month and that's where the SIP concept comes in.
48:11 But what is STP? When we use STP, when I have a large sum of money, it can be a bonus, it can be any large, if I sold any investments and I got a large sum of money and I need to invest in equities.
48:22 OK, now, normally, if you all know that if you invest in equities and hold for 10 years, you make very good return.
48:27 But many times, valuation also plays a role that when you should be investing lumps of money in equities and when you should be staggering your investments in equities because the valuations are stretched.
48:37 So when you're doing STPs, you need to understand that whether the markets are cheap, markets are fair value or markets are expensive.
48:44 If markets are very cheap, then you should not be using STPs. You should be investing your balance money in equities at that point of time.
48:50 So, for example, if you take the COVID times when markets are corrected by 15, 20, 30 percent, that is not the time to do STPs. You should be investing lumps of money.
48:57 When markets are fair value and you believe that there can be some event in the short term and can be volatile, you can do STPs for five, six months.
49:05 But if you believe that markets are really expensive or the valuation are stretched, I believe in the long term struggle of the country.
49:11 But because there may be some volatility in the next six months, eight months and there are very big events coming in terms of elections and earnings.
49:20 So in that case, what you do, because you're not very comfortable investing your lumps of money in equities at that point of time, you should use STPs.
49:28 So you park in debt for arbitrage fund and then from there you can take a every month date and you can keep on doing STPs every month to your equity fund.
49:36 Now, over and above STPs, you should also be using something called a switch. So then you believe in markets are corrected by 10, 15 percent.
49:43 And those point of time, you instead of only waiting for STPs to keep on going, you can switch your money from arbitrage or debt fund to equity fund at that point of time.
49:51 So you use STP when mainly believe markets are expensive. And as you have already heard that last speaker was saying that markets in some pockets are really expensive and most basically in middle and small cap space.
50:02 So if you want to invest in middle market space, there can be some volatility next one year, one and a half year.
50:06 So in that case, I won't recommend that you invest in lumps of money in those counters right now. Rather you do a staggered approach of investing in this funds in the current juncture.
50:15 Okay, fantastic. Now, I did promise at the start that I would take some queries.
50:19 And in fact, we've got a few viewers that have written in on the WhatsApp number that you can see on your screen right now.
50:25 Parikshit Kulkarni has got the first question and he's got a two part question.
50:30 The first one, he's listed out a couple of schemes in which he is investing in through SIPs.
50:35 And this is since 2017. He's got the ABSL focused equity fund, which he's doing a 6000 rupee SIP in.
50:43 And he's got the UTI mid cap fund as well, in which he's doing a 4000 rupee per month SIP.
50:49 The total value of that currently stands at 17 lakh.
50:52 The question is, should he stop the SIPs or continue for 15 more years? If yes, which one should I stop and which new mutual fund scheme should he look at?
51:02 What's the view here, Nikhil?
51:04 See, both these funds are good in their respective categories.
51:08 In recent times, they would have underperformed their peer group is more because the allocation what they have.
51:14 So ABSL focused equity fund has a large component of biases to a large cap.
51:19 Whereas if you if he's comparing to his peer group, there may be a lot of funds which are called middle small cap.
51:24 And because of rallying middle small cap, ABSL focused fund has slightly underperformed his peer group.
51:29 And same goes for UTI because this fund also got 25% in large cap space.
51:33 So what I would rather recommend right now, these funds are good, they're managed by a good fund manager.
51:37 You can hold on this fund, not redeem in this fund because in mutual fund, there will be phases where one fund will underperform.
51:44 Okay, but every two months or three months underperform should not be lead to your changing the funds.
51:49 Because ultimately, when you hold the funds and stay invested for 10-15 years, then only you make return.
51:53 So I'll say that you should continue to hold on this fund and just stay invested.
51:58 Then you see change in fund manager, change in philosophy, then it should be changing the funding accordingly.
52:03 The second part of his question, and he's asking about more SIPs that he's doing.
52:08 He's got Kotak Emerging Equity Fund 5000 rupees per month.
52:11 He's got ICICI Pro Multi Cap Fund, which is doing 5000 rupees per month.
52:15 And he's got recently started SIPs. He's got the Nippon India Multi Cap Fund, the SBI Large and Mid Cap Fund and the Parag Parik Flexi Cap Fund, all of which he's doing 5000 per month.
52:26 So he's doing quite a lot of investments. He's asking since he already has two multi cap and two mid cap funds, should he add another large cap fund?
52:33 And he wants to invest a lump sum of 15 lakh. Should he invest in these SIPs in a staggered manner or in other?
52:41 Or how does he do it? And I think that the STP conversation we had earlier is relevant in this scenario.
52:48 So one, should he add another large cap? And I've got a question on this. He's got a lot of schemes. Should he reduce the number of schemes?
52:56 Yeah. So first of all, adding more funds doesn't make any sense in his portfolio because you already have a lot of schemes.
53:01 And if you look at his portfolio, as I discussed, Builder Focus already large cap, have a good large cap exposure.
53:06 Parag Parik Flexi Cap also have a large cap exposure. SBI Large and Mid Cap will have 35 to 50% in large cap.
53:12 Multi Cap will also have a large cap exposure. So there's no point of adding any more large cap funds in his portfolio.
53:17 So I would not recommend to add any more funds in the portfolio. Considering portfolio, he can do that because he already has an SSA multi cap.
53:24 So it doesn't make sense to add Nippon India Multi Cap again in the same category.
53:27 So I would rather recommend that not to add any more funds in the portfolio.
53:31 You can consider it as a multi cap, Nippon multi cap to one multi cap fund instead of having two funds.
53:36 And rest of the funds can continue the SIP as is what he's doing now. And incremental SIP also, if he wants to add, he should add in the similar funds.
53:43 With regard to lump sum investments, as we discussed already, that it's a good time to do staggered investments instead of putting lump sum money.
53:51 So he should do STPs and currently he can look at Parag Parik Flexi Cap, SBI Large and Mid Cap.
53:57 And if he wants to add Mid Cap, he can either do emerging on UTM Mid Cap and invest in the existing scheme only in a staggered manner.
54:05 Okay. I do want to ask, and I forgot to ask you about this, arbitrage funds is what we discussed as an option to use.
54:12 But which arbitrage funds in your opinion should be looked at?
54:15 Of course, if you're looking at an STP, you should essentially be doing the arbitrage in the same scheme.
54:21 So the other question is, you've looked at all of these schemes, which of these, if he has to consolidate and if he has to reduce the number of schemes, which can he move?
54:31 Okay. So first on the arbitrage, I also added one more point.
54:34 Why is that? Why arbitrage is right now even more making even more sense is that earlier, I'm saying long back, we had T plus 5, then we came to T plus 3 settlement date.
54:43 Now, then we had T plus 2 settlement date, which used to take 3 days time from money moving from arbitrage to equity fund.
54:49 Now we have T plus 1 settlement date. So basically the money moves in 2 days time itself, right?
54:53 You have a trading date, next day there is settlement and third day money is in your designated date.
55:01 Plus zero settlement date. So in that case, the arbitrage fund and the liquid fund will remain more or less similar in terms of when the money gets switched in terms of time frame,
55:09 when the money gets switched from debt or arbitrage to equity fund. So that way the arbitrage makes more sense.
55:14 With regard to when you're doing STPs, you have to select the arbitrage fund from the similar fund house from where you're doing the STPs.
55:20 Otherwise, I'm saying in arbitrage fund, there's not too much of research.
55:24 What you need to know is that arbitrage fund should be consistent, okay?
55:28 And they should be, they should not be volatile. And the fund house should not take a negative equity exposure.
55:33 They should all, all the exposure to equity should be pure arbitrage opportunities.
55:36 And finally, very quickly, very, very quickly, which should he move out of to consolidate?
55:42 So I say say multi-cap, Nippon multi-cap, he can either choose one fund and doesn't make sense to have two funds.
55:47 And rest of the fund he can continue as of now.
55:49 Fantastic. All right. Nikhil, thank you so much for joining in and for giving us that answer and speaking to us on arbitrage funds as well.
55:55 That brings us to the end of this particular edition of the Mutual Fund Show.
55:58 It's been a pleasure bringing it to you. Do stay tuned. This is NDTV Profit.
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