Luisa Weiss, author of Classic German Baking and The Wednesday Chef blogger, in conversation with Annie Fitzsimmons from AFAR Media.
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TravelTranscript
00:00 Okay, I am so excited to be here with Louisa Weiss, who wrote one of my all-time favorite
00:08 cookbooks, one that you can really cook from, as you can tell from my Post-its, but you
00:13 can also just bring it to bed and read it like a novel.
00:16 So thank you so much for being here.
00:18 Thank you so much for having me.
00:20 It's such a pleasure.
00:21 So a brief intro on Louisa.
00:24 So she wrote the very popular award-winning Wednesday Chef blog for many, many years,
00:29 wrote a memoir called My Berlin Kitchen, where she told the story of her life going back
00:33 and forth between America and New York and Berlin, re-meeting her husband Max in Paris,
00:38 and finally moving back to Berlin 10 years ago, getting married in Italy, having two
00:42 boys who are now almost four and eight.
00:46 And her work since then has included being a food columnist for Harper's Bazaar Germany
00:50 for a few years, and of course, writing classic German baking.
00:55 So thank you again.
00:58 So your cookbook, it's like a big comforting hug this year more than ever.
01:02 So let's start with an overview of German baking, which you say is a huge part of the
01:07 culture in Germany.
01:09 Can you talk about that coffee and cake culture and what it means to many Germans, and if
01:13 it's still comforting to you?
01:15 Yeah.
01:16 So it's considered one of the meals of the day, technically.
01:21 You've got breakfast, lunch, coffee at night, and then dinner time.
01:26 And obviously, modern life has meant that a lot of people used to be in offices at that
01:32 time.
01:33 But there was always, for many Germans, I would say, there is still that moment in the
01:37 afternoon when you take a break and have a little snack.
01:41 And some people, like I always talk about my father-in-law, because it just cracks me
01:45 up, the idea that he's a car mechanic.
01:48 He has his own shop.
01:50 And at 3 o'clock every day, religiously, him and all of his colleagues, they put down their
01:55 tools, and they go out to the corner bakery, and they each order a big piece of cake and
02:00 have a coffee.
02:01 And they stay there, and they eat.
02:02 And then they go back and finish work.
02:06 And certainly on the weekends, this time is still relatively sacred.
02:13 You always have a chance to stop or invite people over.
02:15 Like in Germany, a lot of times, socializing will revolve around tea time or coffee time
02:21 in the afternoon, where you'll have cake together.
02:23 And that's--
02:24 And you can kick them out, and you're home for dinner.
02:26 So--
02:27 Yeah, exactly.
02:28 [LAUGHTER]
02:29 So what about you?
02:30 I mean, is it still comforting for you, despite having written this and probably eaten a lot
02:35 of cake?
02:36 Well, it's funny.
02:37 I think I had PTSD for a year or two after finishing the recipe testing process, because
02:43 we just--
02:44 my friend Maya and I, who worked with me on the book, we just baked so much that there
02:49 was a very long phase where I couldn't-- you know how when you bake cakes and stuff, the
02:54 smell of butter and sugar, it sort of gets into your hair?
02:57 The smell of it.
02:59 The smell of it.
03:00 I found it-- oh.
03:02 But now I have found joy in baking again.
03:05 And it is a comfort.
03:06 And it is sort of-- now that we're all home all the time, I mean, it's a nice way to spend
03:12 the time, pass the time.
03:14 It is.
03:15 It is, for sure.
03:16 Definitely comforting.
03:17 Yeah.
03:18 I mean, you've talked about before how a lot of bakeries-- this is happening, of course,
03:22 all over the world, but in Germany, use frozen dough.
03:25 And some of this tradition that you've written about in your book is disappearing.
03:29 Have you seen a renaissance at all in small bakers?
03:34 Or is it still kind of going downhill?
03:37 Well, the proliferation of chain bakeries in Germany has really been the biggest problem,
03:44 where the goal is to produce food as cheaply as possible.
03:49 And this is where you see the frozen rolls coming from Eastern Europe or even China and
03:56 being sold for pennies, literally.
04:00 And for a long time, I was really dejected.
04:03 I didn't see an urgency in the general public to sort of safeguard and respect the traditions
04:14 that I think were getting lost.
04:16 But the last few years, I think, have changed things a little bit.
04:21 For example, in Berlin, which was always really infamous in Germany for having really terrible
04:26 bread, there have been some amazing new bakeries sprouting up all over the city, some of them
04:33 actually run by immigrants from Australia and other places, and some of them, obviously,
04:41 German, making really incredible artisanal sourdough bread and things like that.
04:48 There is, I think, among a certain group of people, the understanding that Germany has
04:53 this incredible wealth of knowledge and handicraft, artisanship, whatever you want to call it,
05:03 that really needs to be respected and honored and hopefully given a sort of more stable
05:09 place in the offerings.
05:11 Preserved, yeah, preserving traditions.
05:14 It's a huge part of travel, right?
05:16 You don't want to go somewhere and just have everything look the same, right?
05:20 And so Germany, having those bakeries, I think, is really important.
05:25 So talking specifically about food, what are some of the greatest hits, like bakery items,
05:30 that people love in Germany?
05:32 And then what are some of your son's favorite favorites?
05:37 I mean, I'll speak for the general public as best I can.
05:42 I mean, people love their fresh rolls, their Brötchen or Semmeln or Weck, whatever they
05:48 call them in various different regions of Germany and the German speaking world.
05:55 Fresh rolls on a weekend is kind of a cult of past, you know, you just kind of have to
06:00 do it.
06:01 Fresh pretzels, freshly baked pretzels are a big thing for kids, but they're actually
06:07 a southern German specialty.
06:09 And so the rest of Germany, from the eyes of the southern Germans, has obviously really
06:14 subpar pretzels.
06:15 Yeah, of course.
06:16 But they are still sold everywhere and they are really delicious, even the yucky one.
06:24 And then cakes, frankly, lots of the yeasted sweet cakes, even though they are still being
06:31 made at home, people buy them a lot in bakeries.
06:37 And even the sort of chain bakeries that aren't producing really wonderful quality things,
06:43 definitely always have a big tray of Bienenstech with cream filling or poppy seed rolls with
06:51 straws on top.
06:57 Do you eat it with coffee or tea?
06:59 Yeah, if you're a coffee drinker, you would have it with coffee.
07:03 Germans drink filter coffee traditionally.
07:06 We are a tea family, so we always have it with tea.
07:10 Our kids really are really into tea as well.
07:13 Oh, yes.
07:14 It's very, very sweet.
07:16 Yeah.
07:17 And so which ones do they love?
07:20 So they both love the pretzels.
07:26 So in Germany, it's not just pretzels that are made with the lye bath, but also pretzel
07:31 rolls and pretzel twists and pretzel braids and pretzel croissants.
07:36 My kids love those.
07:37 They're sort of salty.
07:38 They have a nice, interesting additional layer of flavor.
07:42 Yeah.
07:43 They love those.
07:44 Those are special treats.
07:45 But also Rosinenbrötchen.
07:46 It's like a classic German children's treat from the bakery, which is just a white, fluffy
07:54 roll made of enriched dough, yeasted dough that has raisins in it.
08:01 And what they also like are, well, we have a local bakery up the street.
08:06 It's just a it's a it's a family owned collection of bakeries just in our neighborhood in Berlin.
08:11 And they make something called Kahlsbrote, which are croissant type baked goods, but
08:19 not made with laminated dough made with bread roll dough.
08:23 Oh, yeah.
08:24 I don't know how they do it.
08:25 They're very flaky, multi-layered, but they're not buttery.
08:30 They're crusty, rolly.
08:32 They're amazing.
08:33 If I ever write another cookbook, I will try and include those.
08:38 I wanted to ask you that.
08:39 Do you think you will?
08:40 I don't know.
08:42 I don't know.
08:43 Maybe we'll see.
08:44 We'll see.
08:45 There's certainly I feel like, you know, the German baking tradition, we did a good job
08:49 covering them for this book.
08:51 Although, of course, it's hard because there's just so much to include and I had to limit
08:56 it.
08:57 So there is the sense when we were working on it, Maya and I kept saying when we would
09:01 cut out a recipe that wasn't 100 percent right, we'd say we'll save this for the next one.
09:06 Although actually the next one would sort of it would beg to have like a cooking German
09:10 cooking.
09:11 Yeah, yeah.
09:12 The sauerkraut.
09:13 Yeah.
09:14 Exactly.
09:15 So I think I mean, on the flip side, then, you know, what are in your book, what are
09:20 some of the two or three lesser known recipes that you found that you really kind of you
09:25 love?
09:26 I have to sort of look at the list because I don't have them all memorized anymore.
09:32 I love the savory chapter.
09:36 Those were a revelation to me, all the sort of savory yeasted tarts that are filled with
09:43 everything from scallions and bacon and savory streusel on top or the onion.
09:51 There's like an onion cake called sweet and cool and that is always eaten here in the
09:56 sort of the harvest time.
09:57 It's really, really good.
09:59 And the the the cabbage strudel.
10:03 Amazing strudel, one of the things that I discovered writing this book is that strudel,
10:08 which is Austrian technically, not technically, which is Austrian, is actually really easy
10:14 to make.
10:15 It looks like it's very difficult, but it's really not.
10:17 And you can fill it with all kinds of things, you know, fruit, quark, which is a fresh cheese,
10:23 but also things like mashed potatoes and cabbage.
10:25 Love those.
10:26 I have to say, I made apple strudel from your book for the first time about a month ago.
10:32 And I have been terrified about making it.
10:35 And you're right.
10:36 It is the most beautiful dough.
10:38 It's like you can really see through it, but it's strong enough that, you know, I mean,
10:41 it broke in a couple places, but it's my first time.
10:45 And I loved it.
10:46 And it makes me want to make things that are savory, like the cabbage and the bacon, you
10:50 know, whatever else.
10:51 But it just it's such an amazing dough.
10:53 And it was so easy.
10:54 So I'm so glad to hear that.
10:55 That was really I, I always thought if I could get just people to love strudel because of
11:01 this book, it's worth it.
11:03 You've won.
11:04 So hopefully, hopefully more.
11:07 And I talk about it a lot now.
11:08 So oh, good, good.
11:09 Good.
11:10 I'm happy.
11:11 And I know, of course, now we're talking in December.
11:14 So it's Christmas time when of course, people look at baking more and more.
11:19 But so you have I counted 24 Christmas recipes.
11:22 You can't make them all every year.
11:24 So but which ones do you make every year?
11:27 Well, some people would beg to differ with you.
11:30 They do make every single one every year.
11:35 But the ones that I mean, I try to make the old fashioned gingerbread every year, that
11:41 one requires a little bit of advanced planning, because you make it a couple months before
11:44 Christmas and let the dough ripen before baking it.
11:48 But the cookies are first of all, the dough is a dream to work with.
11:51 It's really good with kids.
11:52 It's very easy to roll out and reroll and cut out and reroll again, and it doesn't really
11:56 suffer.
11:57 But and they they they travel well in normal years.
12:01 If you're shipping cookies this year, it's a little difficult because of the crazy postage
12:04 prices.
12:05 But they're really good for shipping because they let's just go back for a second because
12:09 it is two months, right?
12:11 You said two months is the ideal amount of time that you would like to ripen.
12:16 You could also make it the day before you bake it, it just won't have as much sort of
12:21 round rich flavor.
12:23 The flavor is fine.
12:24 It tastes like gingerbread, but the longer it ages, it sort of just develops this whole
12:28 another level of I love that it's like an aging dough.
12:34 Yes.
12:35 Yeah.
12:36 Well, my friend Joan, who is not German, but has lived here since 1955.
12:41 Her balcony is always the sort of smorgasbord of Christmas delights.
12:45 If you go to her balcony in November, early December, you'll find so many different bowls
12:52 filled with lots of different.
12:53 Oh, that's like her refrigerator.
12:55 Exactly.
12:56 So any others that you have to make every year or?
13:01 I love the this one's kind of difficult to pronounce.
13:04 It's called Lebkuchen vor Wiedertaschkern.
13:07 They're actually Austrian.
13:09 They're little rye cookies that you fill with plum paste and then fold together and crimp.
13:17 They're delicious.
13:18 They're sort of chewy and fruity and really wonderful.
13:25 And I love the Bibble.
13:28 This is something that my friend Maya introduced to me.
13:30 It's a really thin gingerbread dough rolled around a log of almond paste.
13:37 And then you sort of cut them into these little chunks.
13:40 They look like combos.
13:41 Yes, I had a combo in a while.
13:44 But they're sort of spicy gingerbready, rich from the almond paste.
13:50 They're such a treat.
13:51 And they're really like a delight just to have.
13:57 It's hard for me to choose a favorite because I love every recipe in this book so much.
14:03 We worked so hard on getting them all right.
14:05 But the Christmas chapter is particularly difficult to pick out my favorite.
14:11 The other one that I also really like is the Elisenlebkuchen, which are the traditional
14:16 round gingerbreads from Nuremberg that are baked on a wafer, on a little, like the wafers
14:23 that you get given at Mass.
14:28 If you leave away the wafer, it's actually a gluten-free cookie.
14:30 It's all just nuts and lots of spices and chopped up candied orange peel.
14:37 And then when they're baked, you can either cover them in a sugar glaze or in a chocolate
14:41 glaze.
14:42 They're so good.
14:43 I love them.
14:44 That's what I need to make this weekend.
14:46 Yeah.
14:47 Actually, it reminded me of something because German baking, something that I was surprised
14:51 about, it's actually changed my taste.
14:52 I mean, I live in London now, but I, of course, American cookies and sweets are so sweet,
14:59 right?
15:00 And in German baking, it tends to be less sweet, right?
15:03 And very fruit-based.
15:06 So that's, I mean, that actually is.
15:09 It's really nice.
15:10 Yeah.
15:11 Which is, I think, why you're able to have cakes and treats on a relatively regular basis
15:17 without it not contributing to, you know, it's the, like in the yeasted cake chapter,
15:24 I talk about this, the yeasted cakes, they're basically sort of sweetened, slightly sweetened
15:30 bread doughs.
15:31 Yeah.
15:32 With a little bit of flour, obviously.
15:34 And they're so fruit forward that having one, a piece as a snack, like a piece of flamkuchen
15:40 on yeasted base with, with fruit, with plums on top, it's a treat, but it's not like a,
15:47 it's not heavy.
15:48 It's not actually all that rich either.
15:50 It's just kind of a nice little pick me up in the middle of the day that isn't going
15:54 to give you one of those crazy sugar high and then crash.
16:00 Even the, even the torts and cakes that are a little bit more sort of special occasion.
16:05 Yeah.
16:06 I will say like the poppy seed torts or the, even a Linzer torte, there's much less sugar
16:12 in a lot in, in, in the, in there is an American baking, which is why Germans are simultaneously
16:18 totally transfixed by American baking and also kind of appalled by it because it's so
16:26 creamy and impressive, but it's also so tooth achingly sweet.
16:31 It is like two cups of sugar in a recipe or, you know, you're like, oh, so that is a big
16:36 reason why I love German baking.
16:38 It doesn't feel so heavy.
16:41 It really isn't.
16:42 It really isn't.
16:43 It's a much lighter way of indulging.
16:44 If that's the word you're going to use.
16:47 Yeah.
16:48 Yeah.
16:49 Daily indulgence, which I love.
16:50 Also, I mean, you, of course you have roots in a lot of places in Italy, Germany, America,
16:55 and I think a lot of people, especially now have at least told me like, gosh, I just wish
16:59 I lived in Europe or they, you know, they have feel a longing to live in Europe and
17:02 not just visit.
17:03 They dream of a life here.
17:05 But why, why do you feel so settled in Germany?
17:09 Even though of course you're going to always be American and Italian.
17:14 It's such a good question.
17:15 I mean, I was born in Berlin and I was, but I'm not German and I wasn't raised by Germans.
17:21 I was raised by an Italian and an American.
17:24 We also lived in Boston, my father and I, but so I grew up in somewhat of a little non-German
17:31 bubble within the city.
17:35 And of course this was in during the height of the cold war when West Berlin, which is
17:40 where we lived, was filled with Americans, French and English people that had really
17:45 very little to do with the Berlin population.
17:50 I think about that a lot because I wonder if that helped me feel so at home here.
17:58 All I can say is that I've really spent my whole life believing and feeling deep in my
18:02 soul that this is where I belong.
18:04 I feel very rooted to the city.
18:08 And it feels, it feels like home on such a deep, profound level on a personal level.
18:15 I can't really imagine calling anywhere else home like that.
18:20 I mean, I feel very American.
18:24 It's a weird thing because I feel very American and I also feel Italian to a certain degree.
18:30 I don't feel German at all, but I belong here.
18:33 It's just one of the quirks of my-
18:36 Well, global existence and growing up between places.
18:40 And I think that's, I mean, especially, I mean, how lucky to have to know that.
18:44 I think a lot of people don't know that, right?
18:46 Where they want to be or where they belong.
18:48 Well, and I will say that in the years that I wasn't living here, but I knew I wanted
18:56 to be here, but I couldn't figure out how.
18:58 Those were very hard years.
19:00 I was so sad and I couldn't see a path to be where I belonged.
19:07 And that, I feel so fortunate that I was able to identify it and then actually able to go
19:14 because as you say, not everybody can, and I feel at peace now, which is everything.
19:20 Yeah.
19:21 Absolutely.
19:22 Absolutely.
19:23 And raising your family there.
19:25 Yeah.
19:26 Yeah.
19:27 And it's funny because I have, I'm raising little German people.
19:30 I mean, they're bicultural or tricultural depending on how you see it.
19:36 And so they're not totally German, but it is kind of amusing to me that I have these
19:40 little-
19:41 These little Germans.
19:42 Yeah.
19:43 And a German husband.
19:44 And a German husband, yeah.
19:45 So let's end on a fun note.
19:49 When we can travel again freely and when this is all over, where is a place or some places
19:55 in Germany that you want to visit?
19:58 Well, because of my sort of global background or whatever, I have actually spent very little
20:05 time traveling in Germany.
20:07 It's something I'm extremely embarrassed by.
20:10 I know Berlin really well.
20:12 I've been to Frankfurt a bunch because of the book fair, but I really haven't been to
20:18 that many other places.
20:19 So high on my list is actually Hamburg.
20:21 I've never been to Hamburg, not even that far from here, but also the Black Forest.
20:26 I've never been to the Black Forest and I would really love to go.
20:33 And yeah.
20:35 So those are the two sort of very different-
20:37 And I've heard cuckoo clocks, right?
20:39 Is that-
20:40 What's that?
20:41 Is that a tradition of, is that in the Black Forest?
20:45 Is it the Black Forest or is it Switzerland?
20:47 I don't know.
20:48 No, you would know if it was Switzerland.
20:51 I feel like it's the Black Forest.
20:52 I don't know.
20:53 Well, anyways, when you go, you can buy a cuckoo clock or not.
20:56 Also, the gastronomic offerings in Southern Germany are legendary.
21:02 And so we're hoping to go when our kids are old enough to be able to hike for a while,
21:08 which is not too far away.
21:11 We want to go.
21:12 Yeah.
21:13 Amazing.
21:14 Well, thank you so much.
21:15 And I really am inspired now to cook more from your book in the next few weeks.
21:19 And thank you for keeping German baking alive and well in our culture.
21:24 Thank you so much.
21:25 And so it was really lovely to talk to you.
21:27 And I hope you have fun baking from it.
21:30 Thank you.
21:31 Bye.
21:32 Bye.
21:32 Bye.
21:33 Bye.
21:34 Bye.
21:34 Bye.
21:35 Bye.
21:36 Bye.
21:37 Bye.
21:37 Bye.
21:38 Bye.
21:39 Bye.
21:40 Bye.
21:40 Bye.
21:41 Bye.
21:42 [BLANK_AUDIO]