Going South... Travelling to art. Biennials at the intersection of tomorrow.
A KUNSTFORUM Talk on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the KUNSTFORUM.
With Isabelle Bertolotti and Alexia Fabre, Biennale Lyon, Hedwig Fijen, Manifesta 15 Barcelona and Carlos Antunes, Bienal de arte contemporanea de Coimbra.
Host: Ann-Katrin Günzel, editor in chief of KUNSTFORUM.
Art Cologne 2023, Talks Lounge. Cologne (Germany), November 18, 2023, 2-3pm.
A KUNSTFORUM Talk on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the KUNSTFORUM.
With Isabelle Bertolotti and Alexia Fabre, Biennale Lyon, Hedwig Fijen, Manifesta 15 Barcelona and Carlos Antunes, Bienal de arte contemporanea de Coimbra.
Host: Ann-Katrin Günzel, editor in chief of KUNSTFORUM.
Art Cologne 2023, Talks Lounge. Cologne (Germany), November 18, 2023, 2-3pm.
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00 [no audio]
00:09 Welcome to everybody. I think we can start now, no?
00:13 You wanted to say something, Katrin? No?
00:15 No. Okay.
00:17 So I will start now and introduce myself first.
00:21 So I'm Ann-Katrin Günzel,
00:23 the editor-in-chief of Kunstform International,
00:27 and a very welcome to everybody who is here,
00:32 and especially to my guests, Isabel Bertolotti
00:36 and Alexia Fabre, Hedwig Fienn and Carlos Antunes,
00:41 for being my guests today.
00:44 We're talking about going south,
00:46 traveling to art, biennials at the intersection of tomorrow.
00:52 So we will talk about the biennial, biennials,
00:57 and their spreading all over the world,
01:00 the necessity of having such events,
01:03 the competitions and cooperations,
01:06 and of course about the traveling
01:09 to all the different biennial places and the effects it has,
01:14 or maybe there's also the question
01:17 if this is still a concept for the future.
01:21 And I would like to start with a few words
01:24 about what is a biennial,
01:28 what does it mean, since there is no clear definition about it,
01:33 apart that it takes place every two years.
01:36 And it came up first in 1895,
01:40 was the first Biennial di Venezia,
01:44 and it was an "esposizione internazionale", it was called,
01:50 so a model that has since spread all over the world
01:52 in a wide variety of formats.
01:57 In total there are more than 300 different biennials by now,
02:03 so that is really a lot worldwide.
02:06 And what are they?
02:08 They are fields of experimentation
02:10 and meeting places with different concepts,
02:13 quite heterogeneous.
02:17 In the Biennale survey that Kunstforum published,
02:22 it's this one from 2020, called "Quo vadis Biennale",
02:30 our author Sabine Vogel, she stated
02:33 that biennials have become a unique model
02:36 for transnational encounters between artists,
02:40 a testing ground for new curatorial concepts
02:44 and for expansive definitions of art.
02:48 In the beginning, there were of course country competitions,
02:52 such as the country pavilions in Venice still show today,
02:56 but from the 1990s onwards,
03:00 it was more a competition by the curators
03:02 who staged themselves as stars of the scene,
03:05 followed then at the beginning of the 21st century
03:09 by the cities setting up a so-called city marketing,
03:13 which could be easily implemented with a biennial.
03:17 So those biennials spread throughout cities,
03:20 occupying a wide variety of venues
03:24 and searching for traces of the history
03:27 and social conditions of the places where they take place.
03:32 Finally, in the early 2000s,
03:35 satellites were created in other places
03:38 and thus they were decentralized.
03:42 And the former star curators became teams.
03:45 So there were a lot of changes during the times.
03:49 Togetherness and horizontality are the keywords,
03:53 placing commonality at the core.
03:56 And the exhibitions became shared living spaces,
04:01 also for research and for knowledge.
04:05 And since there were always changing concepts
04:08 of how to biennial, one can say,
04:12 or maybe there were even rehearsal stages for another world,
04:16 like Ingo Arendt wrote in this issue of Kunstforum,
04:20 there's still the question, of course,
04:23 what challenges and visions are actually dominating today?
04:28 And that's for sure a question
04:31 for every biennial that's taking place.
04:34 And since we have the representatives
04:37 of three different biennials gathered here today
04:42 for a conversation for the Lyon Biennale,
04:45 represented by Isabelle Bertolotti and Alexia Fabre,
04:48 then the Nomadic Place-Changing Manifesta,
04:52 represented by Hedwig Fienn,
04:54 and the Biennale des Artes Contemporaines de Coimbra,
04:58 represented by Carlos Antunes,
05:02 and I would be delighted that maybe we could briefly introduce
05:08 the different concepts of the biennials also to the audience,
05:14 just to explain a little bit what is the special
05:18 or the characteristics of the Biennale de Lyon, for example.
05:23 So you can find that it's the 17th Biennale,
05:27 next year taking place in 2024.
05:30 It's about human relations and hospitality practices
05:35 are at the center of it,
05:36 but can you maybe outline a little bit about the concept
05:40 or about the special concept that takes place next year?
05:45 So, hello everybody.
05:48 First of all, I will introduce more the DNA of the Lyon Biennale
05:53 and then Alexia will explain more about the concept of the next edition.
05:59 So, the Biennale in Lyon is a biennale really involved on the territory
06:06 and at the same time for the people living here
06:11 and for the people coming too,
06:13 but not only because it's obviously it's a biennale,
06:18 so you imagine an event every two years,
06:20 but in between what's happening, which is also important.
06:25 So in between, we are working with the territory, with people,
06:29 with artists and also with the economic network.
06:35 So the idea is to produce more than half of the work,
06:40 sometimes it's 90 persons, sometimes it's less,
06:44 it depends on the concept,
06:46 but very often we are working with people,
06:50 which for me is important.
06:52 And the idea is, since a long time, is to collaborate to other,
06:56 not only biennale, but we try to,
07:00 but also with other museums, arts, structures in France and abroad.
07:10 So, which means that for instance in 2015, we were in Singapore,
07:17 then we have been also in South Africa, in Russia, in different places,
07:23 which is not only to travel, of course,
07:28 it's the idea of bringing with us young artists
07:32 to know more about the different scene,
07:35 but not only the scene, what I call scene is the way people are imagining,
07:42 showing sometimes the art.
07:47 And it's quite different in different places in the world.
07:52 So it's important for this artist to meet other artists,
07:55 to meet other ways of showing works,
07:57 to meet other ways of, sometimes other materials.
08:02 We had this problem in some places.
08:04 So for me, it's important to connect people to other people and to learn,
08:11 because each time we move to another place, we learn something
08:15 and we meet some other people,
08:17 and together we can work and imagine different things,
08:21 we know more things.
08:23 So the idea, the last one, was to collaborate more with the museum in the place,
08:29 because each biennale is connected with the history
08:32 and geography and social context of Lyon.
08:36 We talked about last time silk, because Lyon is very famous for silk.
08:43 So we were connected with Lebanon,
08:46 we discovered a very important connection with Lebanon.
08:49 A lot of people in Lyon didn't know this,
08:52 so that was important to know this.
08:55 But we were also connected, of course, with China, Japan and other places.
09:00 But to do something different than art,
09:07 connect you with the art to other people,
09:09 which for me is important to have this way of entering in the biennale,
09:13 because very often people say in different contexts,
09:18 "I don't know a lot about contemporary art, I'm not very well..."
09:24 So maybe it's a way to touch, to connect with more people on the territory,
09:32 which is very important.
09:35 And then I invited Alexia, because I know how she worked
09:41 when she was in a McVal in the museum near Paris.
09:45 The work she did with the territory was, for me, wonderful.
09:52 And I wanted her to be challenged with the new context of Lyon,
09:58 and with the geography, the history,
10:02 inspired her and the artists we are inviting.
10:08 And we are not inviting artists thinking of,
10:13 "We can show that work, that work, that work."
10:15 We are inviting artists.
10:17 They see the new places, because we are changing the place.
10:21 This time we will have a very, very nice place.
10:25 You will see at the moment a very huge place.
10:28 So they have to feel the place, and to invent, to create new pieces.
10:36 So that's the new place.
10:37 So maybe you can say more about the next...
10:40 How you want to...
10:42 Hello everybody.
10:44 So you have watched the images from the location of the biennale,
10:55 which is a very specific and new place for the biennale in Lyon.
10:59 It's an industrial place which has been abandoned some years ago,
11:06 where were repaired manned trains.
11:11 And as you can see, it's a huge place.
11:14 And I didn't want to start that way,
11:16 but this is a real subject, and maybe it is a subject for us.
11:21 Do we have to deal with the temptation of big productions?
11:29 Or do we have to resist, as I'm going to try to do,
11:33 because it's a huge place, and I'm not sure...
11:36 I'm sure that we have to deal with it.
11:39 We will have to talk with it, because the walls talk,
11:44 the walls sweat, the walls whisper.
11:48 Still, we have to think about the subject of production,
11:51 and how, but you told about that,
11:54 we have to think that subject, staying in the territory.
11:58 But anyway, this is...
12:01 Well, a biennale to me is...
12:03 You have talked about the territory.
12:06 I would like to talk about the time it is,
12:09 the occasion to invite artists,
12:13 to show how we trust artists,
12:17 and to invite artists to work for,
12:21 but also to work with the audience,
12:26 and the public, and the population.
12:28 So, you've been talking about that.
12:30 But to me, this is a question of trust, of invitation,
12:36 which is also the subject of the biennale,
12:39 subject of relationships, of welcoming,
12:42 and how we can encounter the others.
12:47 On the other hand, of course, we think about meeting,
12:50 welcoming, because we know today
12:54 how dialogue can be complicated sometimes.
12:57 I don't know if you will go into talk about that,
12:59 but this is an intense subject today.
13:04 So, as we are going to welcome the biennale
13:08 in an old factory, which used to be a place
13:13 for political, syndical fights.
13:17 This is a national company of trains in France,
13:20 so maybe you have heard about how many strikes
13:23 and important fights have become there,
13:28 have started there.
13:29 We want to show and to welcome artists
13:39 in a real invitation,
13:41 and to let them interpret the subject of relationships
13:44 and the other side of that.
13:46 So, this is a very open invitation for production.
13:50 We will show some pieces that already exist,
13:53 because we can't do without some pieces
13:57 that relate so much to the subject.
13:59 But almost, this is an occasion to produce,
14:03 to produce in a very local way,
14:06 but to produce with also the population,
14:09 to extend the dynamic of creation,
14:13 before, during, after,
14:17 to work on a very big territory,
14:19 because this region is very big.
14:22 It goes from the mountain to the south,
14:26 and we try to work with the idea of confluence,
14:33 of influence, how we get richer,
14:36 and countering, meeting the others.
14:38 Maybe you know that Lyon, like many other big cities,
14:42 is crossed by two big rivers,
14:45 so two circulation roads, as we can say.
14:53 And so this is really the idea of being in link
14:59 with this very special geography.
15:02 But maybe I'm too long.
15:03 Thank you very much.
15:05 I would like to talk about the audience
15:08 and the invitation to the audience,
15:09 and who can be the audience of all these biennials later on.
15:13 But first I would give the word to Edwig Fjell
15:16 to present also to our audience here
15:21 the manifesto a little bit and the concept of it,
15:25 because it's a very, very special concept also.
15:28 Thank you, Anna-Kathrin.
15:31 Wonderful to be here.
15:34 I'm coming from Barcelona.
15:36 Manifesto 15 is taking place in Barcelona.
15:39 Maybe the difference between all the biennials in the world
15:43 and manifesto is that we're moving every two years
15:47 to a new city.
15:48 And the last four editions were in the south of Europe.
15:53 So we concentrate on Europe
15:55 and from Palermo, Manifesto 12,
16:00 to Marsilia, Manifesto 13,
16:03 to Pristina, Kosovo, Manifesto 14.
16:07 We're now in Barcelona.
16:10 I think also the main change, to keep it really short,
16:13 the main change between Manifesto and the rest
16:16 is that we are invited with a very special task.
16:21 So it's not to make an exhibition only
16:24 or to do something on the visual arts.
16:28 We changed since Manifesto 12
16:30 from l'arte contemporanea, contemporary art,
16:34 to interdisciplinarity.
16:36 So we work with architects, environmentalists,
16:40 biologists, futurologists.
16:43 And this is also reflecting in the concept.
16:45 But the most important,
16:46 since Manifesto sometimes goes to cities
16:50 where a biennial context
16:52 or a contemporary culture context doesn't exist,
16:56 we want to invest the money
16:58 into long-term sustainable projects.
17:03 Just to give you an example, in Pristina,
17:05 where Manifesto 14 was taking place in 2022,
17:10 we have still part of the Biennale open.
17:13 We created with Catherine Nichols,
17:17 who is here from Germany, from Hamburg-Habanov,
17:20 we created a center for narrative practice
17:23 and a center for telling stories.
17:26 Otherwise, why did we do this?
17:29 Kosovo is a post-conflict war country
17:33 and the young generation had a need
17:35 to tell the stories in a different way.
17:39 So the Center for Narrative Practice
17:41 is about radio station, podcast studio, libraries,
17:46 but also trauma workshops.
17:48 This is just an example.
17:51 I see some in the audience who have been in Pristina,
17:54 so they know a little bit more about this.
17:56 Barcelona invited us, Ada Calau,
17:59 the former mayor of Barcelona,
18:02 invited us to do something completely different.
18:04 She said, and this is part of the research Manifesto did,
18:10 "The center of Barcelona has very beautiful museums,
18:15 but the entire metropolitan area
18:18 where the Catalan people live
18:20 do not participate in these museums.
18:23 And the icon of Barcelona, the Sagrada Familia,
18:27 is catering for tourists.
18:29 Can Manifesto help us create an alternative cultural ecosystem?"
18:36 And I said, "Do you want us to make 12 biennales?"
18:40 She said, "Yes, in principle, yes."
18:41 So we wanted to...
18:43 We did not start with hiring a curator or anything.
18:47 We invited architects, futurologists,
18:51 but especially the citizens,
18:53 because who are deciding about the future?
18:56 And you see the 12 cities.
18:59 These are the citizens.
19:00 And there is a couple of organizations in Catalonia
19:04 called Decidim, who work with citizens,
19:06 and they sat with 100 citizens in these 12 cities
19:12 to find out what are the main topics.
19:15 This was a year ago,
19:16 and we invited also 10 international collectives
19:20 and researchers to go from these topics
19:24 into, let's say, statements.
19:27 And we're working now on drafting a Magna Carta.
19:30 What is a Magna Carta?
19:32 It's a basic new social contract for Barcelona,
19:38 but it could also be for Dusseldorf,
19:40 or for Amsterdam, or for London.
19:42 Because everybody in this Bürgerinitiative
19:46 decided to say to Manifesta,
19:49 "Maybe we don't need art.
19:50 Maybe we need something else."
19:52 And what you see here is the three main conflicts,
19:57 or the main issues, which brought on the table is,
20:00 how do we see a future together?
20:03 What sort of new social contract do we need?
20:05 The second was, there's so many conflicts
20:09 between growth and degrowth.
20:12 On whose side are we anyhow?
20:15 And then you see here, cure and care.
20:17 For whom do we care?
20:20 And who cares about the world?
20:21 Who cares about, let's call it Cerrola,
20:24 who cares about, let's say, the green lung of Barcelona?
20:29 And these are the 10 collectives and researchers
20:38 and also one researcher,
20:40 it's Anais Florin and Arquitectos de Capcellera,
20:43 they're very local.
20:44 They said, "This manifesto needs to be about
20:47 a radical locality.
20:49 It's not about bringing international tourists.
20:53 We're dying of tourists.
20:54 We have 20 million tourists a year.
20:57 So don't use it like this."
20:59 So we created a list of collectives
21:03 who are translating what Manifesta possibly means
21:07 and what Manifesta possibly can do.
21:09 I show you Embassy of the North Sea.
21:11 They're investigating the toxicity and the pollution
21:14 of the waters, the rivers, the sea.
21:17 Lara Schnitger, she's from LA,
21:20 she's comparing feminist suffragettes,
21:25 19th century methodologies,
21:28 with, for example, the Extinction Rebellion.
21:32 And she's creating a work with the descendants
21:37 of the textile industry and the feminist societies
21:40 in the different parts of the metropolitan region.
21:45 But also Radio Slumber,
21:48 they organize slumber parties with citizens
21:51 about how can the young generation survive
21:55 after COVID and long COVID.
21:57 The Versorium is a local group of dysfunctional
22:01 or less functional people, disabled people,
22:04 who organize parties for local citizens
22:08 to understand how accessibility needs to be developed.
22:14 One of the key issues is,
22:15 "Okay, if Manifesta is going to take place
22:18 and we do it for radical local communities,
22:24 how do we want to do what?"
22:27 And we found four symbolic venues
22:33 symbolizing these issues I just mentioned.
22:37 Cure and Care is a monastery from the 12th century
22:41 in Colserola about spirituality,
22:45 how to get to a different sort of senses.
22:47 The Gustavo Gili building,
22:50 as you see, is a modernist building
22:52 built in the fascist period,
22:54 which will have a colonial and decolonial archive,
22:58 but also an archive about the Civil War,
23:02 the fascist period.
23:04 Because if you go to Barcelona,
23:06 you need to understand, "Where am I?
23:08 What has taken place?
23:10 What were the genealogies,
23:11 the stories from the history?
23:13 How did this Civil War or this fascist period,
23:16 how is it still working on
23:18 and impacting the different communities?"
23:21 The Casa Gomes is an amazing modernist
23:27 private building of four sisters,
23:29 but it will disappear
23:31 because the airport will need to extend.
23:34 And also a turtle beach
23:37 where breeding turtles are protected
23:40 will disappear if we select for the growth of tourism
23:44 and the growth of the airport.
23:46 So all these venues symbolize one topic.
23:49 The main venue will be these three chimneys,
23:53 a Tate Modern before the Tate Modern was existing,
23:57 and it is the symbol of fossil fuel.
24:00 And we have invited local communities,
24:03 "What do we need to do with such a kind of space?
24:06 Does it need to become an environmental center?
24:09 Does it need to be turned into a park,
24:13 a vertical park?
24:14 Does it need to become in housing?"
24:17 So this is what we are going to discuss.
24:21 We can't say a lot about what it's going to be
24:24 because everything is going to be in process,
24:28 and it's depending also how local communities
24:31 want us to continue with this.
24:34 So for example, on the grounds around the three chimneys,
24:38 we will invite political activists
24:42 who somehow need to have a voice
24:45 about what is building,
24:48 which will definitely disappear
24:49 if the sea level rises in the next decade for two meters.
24:55 But what does the future of Barcelona need to be?
25:00 Ada Colau, who is not a mayor anymore,
25:02 said maybe these three chimneys as an environmental space
25:08 can become the new Sagrada Familia of the 21st century.
25:12 This is the monastery.
25:14 So this is what I can say about where we are.
25:19 And I am not allowed to say,
25:23 "Don't come to Barcelona next year."
25:25 I'm not allowed to say it by the people,
25:28 but in principle,
25:30 the next manifesto is for the Catalan people
25:33 to rethink, imagine their future.
25:37 Thank you.
25:38 Okay, thank you.
25:40 So we have here already also the invitation
25:44 to a special audience,
25:45 so a public that you define as the citizens.
25:50 But before talking about that,
25:53 let's hear Carlos Antunes about the Biennial de Coimbra.
25:57 I'm really happy to be here,
25:59 especially because I really respect
26:01 and appreciate this to Lyon and Manifesto Biennial.
26:05 In order not to get lost in time,
26:07 I wrote a small text.
26:10 I will start immediately and then we can talk.
26:13 With sound, please.
26:15 I have sound in this video.
26:17 It's really important.
26:18 [Music]
26:21 [Music]
26:23 [Music]
26:25 [Music]
26:27 [Music]
26:29 ♪ São teus ♪
26:34 ♪ São duas aves marias ♪
26:39 ♪ Dos ários da amargura ♪
26:47 ♪ Que eu vejo todos os dias ♪
26:58 ♪ Dos ários da amargura ♪
27:02 - This teaser we have just seen
27:10 is the final scene of Wiener Wander's "Pina",
27:13 in which Pina Bausch dances
27:14 a traditional Coimbra song, "Fado".
27:17 This image shows me the purpose of holding a biennial
27:20 in a city like Coimbra.
27:22 In this conservative university city,
27:24 contemporary practice need to be inscribed.
27:27 A deeply contradictory city
27:29 that has always been the cradle of the artistic avant-garde,
27:33 but at the same time,
27:34 maintains a conservative way of looking at the world.
27:37 The biennial has this purpose.
27:39 It was created by Círculo de Artes Plásticas de Coimbra,
27:42 an artistic association I belong to
27:45 since I was 18 years old.
27:47 The oldest institution linked
27:49 to the production of contemporary art in Portugal.
27:52 It was founded in '58,
27:53 and has consistently promoted
27:55 the most radical and modern forms of artistic production,
27:59 which has lost some relevance
28:00 from the point of view of cultural production
28:02 due to the growth of Porto and Lisbon.
28:05 What we want to do with the biennial
28:07 is to refocus the city
28:09 on the possibility of making it a relevant source
28:11 of contemporary production,
28:13 counteracting the country's cultural polarization.
28:17 The biennial arises in this context also,
28:20 and also from the inscription
28:23 of the University of Coimbra's UNESCO World Heritage Site.
28:27 Based on these new conditions of the city,
28:29 we thought it was an extraordinary opportunity
28:31 to propose a program of highly public visibility
28:35 in Coimbra, questioning the limit of the inscription itself.
28:38 A Throw of Dice,
28:41 based on Malarmé's seminal poem of modernity,
28:44 the first edition of the biennial in 2015,
28:48 curated by myself, Luís Quintaes and Pedro Pousada,
28:51 positions the biennial as the provocative agent
28:54 that contradicted any glorification discourse
28:57 of this new condition of the city,
28:59 which should correspond to new urban responsibility
29:02 and an action program for the city.
29:04 In the second edition in 2017, Healing and Repairing,
29:09 based on Tony Judd's thought, Heal First the Land,
29:13 curated by Delfim Sardo,
29:14 the biennial finds an extraordinary building,
29:17 the Monastir of Santa Clara.
29:20 It's a building of huge scale abandoned.
29:23 The city is divided by a river,
29:26 monumental on one side where the university is,
29:29 and on the other, more peripheral, where the monastery is.
29:33 Both facing each other.
29:37 The Third Bank, the 2019 edition curated by Arnaldo Farias,
29:41 based on the short story, The Third Bank of the River,
29:44 by Brazilian writer João Guimarães Rosa,
29:47 solidifies our relationship with Brazil
29:49 and Latin America and the former territories
29:52 of Portugal occupation.
29:54 We believe that these relationships can be resignified
29:57 through contemporary art and create the possibility
30:00 of healing and repairing all the colonial trauma.
30:04 Midnight, the 2022 edition,
30:08 curated by Elphi Turpin and Filipe Oliveira, Two Women.
30:12 These questions are taken even further,
30:15 particularly with the introduction
30:17 of a feminist vision of the world,
30:19 reflections on the night as a place of exclusion,
30:23 and alternative epistemologies.
30:25 The Phantom of Liberty, based on a film by Luiz Buñuel,
30:34 the 2024 edition, curated by Marta Mestre
30:38 and Angel Calvulloa, based on the commemorations
30:41 of 100th anniversary of the Surrealism Manifesto
30:44 and the 50th anniversary of the April 25 Carnation Revolution
30:49 that introduced democracy to Portugal,
30:52 will once again be an opportunity to reflect
30:55 on these periods and not to exalt it.
30:59 Latin American and African countries
31:01 will occupy a very central place
31:03 in what will be our program.
31:06 However, I would like to end by saying
31:08 that the last thing we want is to be held hostage
31:11 by our geographical condition.
31:14 That is, there is a specific idea
31:16 that a peripheral country is expected to take care
31:19 of the peripheries, and a country in the southern Europe
31:22 is expected to take care of the global thought.
31:25 We tend to resist this vision
31:26 because it seems to be a neocolonial view
31:29 of the expectations that geography place on us.
31:32 So, the Biennale is about this condition,
31:37 but it's also about the opposite.
31:39 I will leave you with these images from the show
31:42 we have just had, a new solo show from Ragnar Karskjönsson,
31:47 which touched Portugal so much.
31:49 Sound, please, here.
31:50 And last, sound, please.
31:53 [MUSIC PLAYING]
31:56 And last but not least, the 12th century map
32:18 of the Arabic geographer Al-Idrisi,
32:21 representing the world upside down,
32:23 a wrong and Eurocentric way to refer to it.
32:27 So, from Binabash to Semihawakamara,
32:31 from Vupertal to Senegal, going south, going north,
32:35 going everywhere.
32:38 Yeah, thank you.
32:39 Thank you very much.
32:42 I think that was a very interesting overview
32:44 of three different, totally different concepts.
32:48 And still, there is a lot in common, I think.
32:51 So, it's like the keywords of responsibility,
32:55 sensibility for places, for people, for topics,
33:00 and for citizens, going together with the citizens who
33:04 are part of the audience or the entire audience,
33:07 or doing it together with the people.
33:10 And since it's not the first time, the next year,
33:13 you are dealing with these topics and with these concepts.
33:18 My question would be, is this choosing the audience
33:22 or inviting this kind of audience going outside
33:26 of the cities and the outskirts?
33:29 Does this also function for the periphery of society?
33:35 So, does it really work with this going together
33:39 with citizens and having a different audience
33:43 than this art audience that you might meet here,
33:46 maybe at the Art Cologne?
33:47 But it's like a totally different approach.
33:51 And I think it's a very difficult approach, also,
33:56 to do it this way.
33:59 Because going outside does not mean that the people have
34:03 access, really.
34:04 It's still always a privilege, also,
34:07 of education, of financial resources,
34:10 of time you have to have to really do all these concepts
34:15 or to participate in these concepts.
34:17 And I think that would be interesting to hear, also,
34:21 from the last years or the last biennials, how does it work?
34:27 Or how is this wish, or maybe also a little bit
34:31 the Utopium project, to integrate people
34:35 and to have a participation, a wide participation,
34:38 outside the art public?
34:40 Does it really work at the end, also?
34:46 Yeah, for the manifesto, for example.
34:49 I think for manifesto, maybe it's
34:50 different because we're moving from city to city.
34:54 So our first, let's say, research approach
34:58 is for whom are we doing it and what is, let's say,
35:01 the main question here.
35:03 And we learned the two L's, learning and listening.
35:07 If you listen to what's happening in a local community--
35:11 and I think that's what I learned in Kosovo,
35:14 but also in Palermo, redistribution of power.
35:19 Asking some really critical questions to yourself.
35:23 What are you doing?
35:24 Why are you doing it?
35:25 What is the purpose?
35:26 For whom are you doing it?
35:28 And I think this can be on the four P's, for the people,
35:32 the program, the partners, and the project itself.
35:37 And it started maybe in Palermo, where
35:40 Leo Luca Orlando asked us, can you
35:43 help us transform in this city?
35:44 And I said, of course we can't.
35:46 You're working 25 years against fighting the mafia.
35:50 But then we started working on how
35:53 is culture accessible for large audiences?
35:57 And is an audience, überhaupt, interested in participating?
36:02 And we spoke a lot about, can a biennial
36:05 become an incubation of change?
36:08 And what sort of change?
36:10 And we found out that interdisciplinarity,
36:14 intergenerational approach-- so not only young people,
36:18 or old people, or the wealthy people,
36:20 but especially interdisciplinarity,
36:22 or transdisciplinarity, forced us to work with architects,
36:27 with urbanists, to understand sociologists,
36:30 to understand where are the questions we're dealing with.
36:34 So we never start with artistic practices.
36:37 And we never start with artistic questions.
36:39 That's also why, for example, in Kosovo, 800,000 people
36:44 visited the manifesto, especially
36:48 members of the community who are normally not participating.
36:52 And it's a primer.
36:55 Carlo Ratti, who did a burger initiative in Kosovo,
36:59 won the German Design Prize on his transformation
37:03 of the city of Pristina, because he was a lot about, hey,
37:08 in a post-communist, post-war society, what does it
37:12 mean to share public space?
37:14 So we did a project about this.
37:17 And this didn't mean art exhibition.
37:19 In the end, there were some art exhibition.
37:21 But it was cleaning a garbage dump in the city of Pristina.
37:27 It was cleaning a rape alley and putting light there
37:31 so women could pass the city from another.
37:34 It was taking the cars and creating a pedestrian art.
37:41 And it was creating a center where women, especially,
37:44 could feel free to talk about a war, the Center
37:47 for Narrative Practice.
37:48 The main thing for manifesto-- but I
37:52 don't think any older Biennialists need
37:54 to work with this-- is how can we also
37:57 use the money and the investment for long-term,
38:02 langfristig development?
38:05 So this is also why, in Barcelona,
38:08 we're not looking at the museums in the center.
38:10 We're looking into connecting these 12 metropolitan cities.
38:15 And I approached my colleagues in Sharjah, Liverpool, Venice,
38:19 Documenta, Berlin, saying, if we're
38:22 dealing about environmental issues,
38:25 if we're dealing with, let's say,
38:27 overconsumption and overexploitation,
38:30 let's not invite the art audiences
38:33 to fly to Sao Paulo, Sydney, to fly to, I don't know, Shanghai.
38:40 But let's work together and exchange
38:44 the works we are producing.
38:45 Because also, many artists are complaining at this moment--
38:50 I spoke to Isaac Julian, for example--
38:52 that some of the works and the artists
38:55 need to work on 10 Biennialists.
38:58 So let's reduce not only the COT emissions,
39:04 but also let's reduce how much we
39:06 need all this kind of transport.
39:08 And think about collaboration and co-creation.
39:12 Think about how we can do something together.
39:14 Think about that manifesto doesn't want to be unique
39:18 and invite artists to do this own work, but do it together.
39:21 And I think this could be something
39:23 which could also look at a critical view to the art world
39:27 itself.
39:28 That's what we're trying.
39:29 We don't know what the outcome is.
39:32 In terms of curation, we are also critical to ourselves.
39:36 We invited Filipe Oliveira, who was also working in Quiambra,
39:41 who is very close by, speaks the language.
39:44 We invited these 10 collectives.
39:46 But also, we said, if it is about a metropolitan area,
39:51 why do we need a curator from--
39:54 we call them creative mediator--
39:56 from New York?
39:57 Maybe we appoint and invite people from those cities
40:02 to help us.
40:03 And that brought a fantastic project, which I want to share.
40:08 The local communities and artistic representatives
40:12 of the cities found out that in the Second Republic,
40:15 before the Civil War, there were, like now,
40:18 a lot of concerns about industrialization,
40:21 environmental issues.
40:23 And in 1923, in Barcelona, in Catalonia,
40:27 before the Civil War, they created
40:29 a radical pedagogical system in which there
40:33 was a school at the beach, a school at the woods,
40:37 to try to find out how can we live together
40:39 in a much more sustainable way.
40:41 And when we found the archives, it
40:44 was one-to-one applicable to now, 100 years ago,
40:49 because we didn't find any solution for the rivers.
40:52 We didn't find solutions for how to detoxify the woods.
40:57 So we're taking a lot of inspiration from the locality
41:01 and try to think from the past and include this.
41:04 Sorry for the long intro.
41:06 Thank you.
41:07 So you're really working together
41:09 with the people who are living in this region.
41:12 How about Coimbra?
41:13 Is it similar?
41:15 Yes, of course.
41:18 Biennials have a huge problem.
41:21 They became a kind of typology.
41:23 And when we think about this typology,
41:25 we imagine in a way that are all equals.
41:29 This is a happy day today, because we
41:31 are seeing that, in fact, we have alternatives.
41:34 The three biennials here, in fact,
41:36 work in a different direction.
41:38 And this is very important.
41:41 By saying this, well, in fact, working with--
41:44 why do we do biennials?
41:47 To show contemporary art.
41:51 I prefer to think we do these biennials to promote
41:54 and to empower the cities where we are working with.
41:58 And that's what we do, in fact, in Coimbra.
42:02 We invest a lot of our time working with the communities.
42:08 And even the curators, we immediately
42:13 start to tell them we don't want a kind of star system,
42:17 curators traveling around the world.
42:19 If they want to work with us, they
42:21 want to work with the people, with the local.
42:24 And by this, by doing this, by knowing the city,
42:27 by knowing what the city needs, they
42:29 can start to propose a program for the city.
42:33 You talked about the social contract.
42:35 I like the idea.
42:35 I used to talk about a program for the city.
42:37 But in a way, it's the same.
42:41 In fact, I like to think--
42:44 this idea of typologies, in fact,
42:47 came from the idea of universal exhibitions.
42:50 Huge shows, a kind of summer festival,
42:52 spring festival that can allow people to move to the city,
42:57 to spend money there, and then leave.
42:59 We have to do the opposite.
43:01 This is what we have to do.
43:03 Do the opposite.
43:04 Work with the local.
43:06 And by doing this, I believe we will gain a lot.
43:09 I used to use an image.
43:12 As you know, we Portuguese people
43:14 like to eat and food.
43:17 And I like to think the Bahianas as a kind of gastronomy.
43:21 If it's relevant for the locals, if it's good, for sure,
43:27 it will be important for the locals.
43:30 And it will gain attention from the outside world.
43:33 But in fact, it starts by the opposite direction.
43:37 OK.
43:39 Yes.
43:41 I do agree, absolutely, empowering our territories,
43:45 but also empowering the artists.
43:49 This is a chance to invite them, to recognize them,
43:52 to recognize the value in the society.
43:57 Well, now I'm actually working directing
44:00 Les Beaux-Arts de Paris, which is a school of fine arts
44:05 in France, in Paris, of course.
44:07 And I feel that the artists want to be recognized.
44:12 They want to create.
44:14 And also, they want to act.
44:18 They want to act.
44:19 This is something which is very different, which is new.
44:25 They want to be active in the society.
44:27 And I think that a Biennale, like all your Biennales,
44:31 which are thought to deal with, to do with, not only to do for.
44:40 And this is the best chance we have
44:43 to recognize the special value of artists in our world.
44:49 And maybe Biennales should last longer.
44:55 Maybe this is another subject.
44:57 But this is a special time to highlight their value
45:02 and to make them active and to give them
45:04 the chance to act with the people
45:09 and not only for the people.
45:11 So not only together with the people, you mean that--
45:14 so you are inviting the audience from outside to come
45:17 and to really to explore the region also.
45:20 Yes, of course.
45:22 Of course.
45:22 But also now, the artists don't want to create alone.
45:27 I think the artwork is not the only issue.
45:31 It's not always a final issue.
45:35 The work is doing with, thinking with, in a special location,
45:41 in a special venue, and with a special community, with people.
45:48 Most of the young artists, even if they still work in studios,
45:53 they ask for, they long to work in a special situation.
46:02 They want to be invited.
46:03 They want us to believe in them.
46:06 And I think what you are saying is super important,
46:09 because I think we are many people in society, educated
46:15 and non-educated, care about the world
46:17 and care about the environment.
46:20 Let's say the whole climate change, the climate crisis,
46:23 one of the issues most people care about
46:26 is a very technical one.
46:28 And what I found out last year, dealing
46:30 with this subject with artists, biologists, specifically
46:36 artists, can create unorthodox, imaginary solutions.
46:42 For example, we have one group, Parliament of Trees.
46:46 They want to give trees the legal right of an entity
46:51 as a non-human actor.
46:54 So involving this group, we want to allow a forest
47:03 to start a lawsuit against the city about being toxified.
47:08 People understand that.
47:10 People are enthusiastic about those things.
47:13 So the imaginary power of what artists can do
47:17 in trying to give a direction to some
47:20 of the key issues in our society is crucial.
47:24 I agree.
47:26 One more thing I would like to add
47:29 is what's the difference between a biennial and an exhibition?
47:33 For me, it's quite different.
47:35 An exhibition is a theme and a collection of works.
47:41 And you can work with artists, of course.
47:44 But it's a specific purpose, which
47:47 can be in a city or another one or everywhere in the world.
47:52 But a biennial, for me, is an event.
47:57 Also, the duration is important.
48:00 It's not only one shot from March to September.
48:04 It's something you deal with the population, but also
48:10 the audience, and also the people who will come,
48:13 also the artists you're inviting.
48:15 And it's a long, long discussion with the artists.
48:18 And the artists are discovering things on the territory.
48:21 They are influenced by social context, by the other artists,
48:26 because they are working together.
48:28 There are not only a few artists.
48:29 It's a huge number of artists.
48:31 And it's a discussion, how many artists to invite, small,
48:35 a lot of.
48:36 It's a discussion we have, not only
48:39 concerning the budget, but also the way you are inviting them.
48:43 Do they have to travel?
48:45 And also, we can say that we will co-produce something
48:49 with other biennials.
48:50 But will the work you will produce
48:54 travel in the same way it has been imagined somewhere
49:01 and in another place?
49:03 I think all these questions, it's
49:05 more complex than just saying, don't travel,
49:08 be careful of this.
49:10 And I think it's really, really complex questions.
49:14 And we are talking a lot about this.
49:16 And I think you are doing the same in your place.
49:19 I think all these things have to be discussed,
49:23 but together with the artists, and also on the way
49:27 we want to promote the way we are thinking about this new--
49:33 But you have kind of collaborations,
49:35 because since--
49:37 I mean, it's absolutely understandable what you say.
49:40 And I agree also.
49:44 But like you said, there are collaborations
49:46 for not having artworks produced or people traveling
49:50 all around the world.
49:52 Since we have more than 300 biennials, it's a lot.
49:56 So you could almost every day go in another place
49:59 and look at something different.
50:02 And even if there is a characteristic for the place
50:06 and a site-specific work, it still
50:10 remains the problem of the traveling around
50:12 and of this large public traveling around
50:16 to all the different places.
50:18 And of course, the question is, is this necessary?
50:20 Do we really need so many biennials?
50:24 Or would half of it be enough?
50:28 People need the biennial on their territory.
50:32 Not a lot of people are traveling.
50:34 I think we have the idea that all the world is traveling
50:37 to Barcelona, then to Lyon.
50:40 It's not true.
50:42 They're not traveling everywhere in the world.
50:44 We are traveling, all of you.
50:47 And we are traveling, but not all of you.
50:48 With an electric car.
50:51 But I think it's good to say the topology of a biennial
50:55 is being confused.
50:56 A biennial is not only--
50:58 and I think not all the 300 biennials--
51:01 are just extreme exhibition production centers.
51:05 Many of the biennials, especially
51:08 in non-Western countries, have a very important co-creation,
51:13 conscious, and even activist, local urgency.
51:20 And I think we can work together with all the biennialists
51:23 to promote that function of a biennial.
51:26 Think about a biennial not only as a kind of exhibition.
51:30 Think about it as a kind of, as I said,
51:33 incubation for social creation.
51:36 Maybe in Cumbria, there is a lot of need
51:39 to rethink what the fascist period had done today.
51:44 Or for example, in the Netherlands,
51:46 it needs to be thought of colonial, slave trade.
51:50 This is part of it.
51:51 So it can be an instrument for change.
51:54 And artists and culture are very much needed.
51:57 Then we need to be critical to ourselves.
52:00 Yes, I do think so.
52:02 I think we need to be critical because we are part of a system.
52:07 And this system needs to change.
52:09 That's for sure.
52:10 How we do it, in which time frame, as you say,
52:13 the complexity of this question is also extremely difficult.
52:18 But we can make, into a positive, constructive attempt,
52:24 imaginary solutions.
52:26 And I am trusting cultural interventions
52:29 and artistic practices in this.
52:31 But I think it is nothing worse about being
52:35 critical to yourself.
52:36 Yes.
52:38 So maybe that's a good schlusswort.
52:40 Catherine gave me a sign to--
52:43 Ah, that's a pity.
52:44 I thought we just started.
52:46 Yes.
52:48 Unfortunately, we are already at the end.
52:50 Maybe there is time for one or two questions
52:53 from the audience, if there are questions you have.
53:00 Otherwise, I would thank you for coming
53:03 and for giving us this impression of the biennial.
53:08 Thank you very much.
53:10 Thank you.
53:11 Thanks also for coming.
53:13 Thank you.
53:15 [BLANK_AUDIO]