In this conversation, artist Thomas Müllenbach discusses his life and artistic journey. Thomas Müllenbach was born on December 20, 1949, in Koblenz, Germany. He has been based in Zurich, Switzerland, since 1972, where he has made significant contributions to the art world. Müllenbach is recognized as a painter, draftsman, and professor, with a career spanning several decades. His artistic practice focuses on the "normality" of everyday life, transforming the mundane into thought-provoking works through painting and drawing.
He studied at the Kunstakademie in Karlsruhe before moving to Zurich to train as a restorer at the Swiss Institute for Art Research (SIK). His work often explores themes like the architecture of banks and insurance companies ("Geldräume") and reinterprets familiar imagery, as seen in his "Halboriginale" series—unique appropriations of art historical references. Müllenbach initiated and co-founded the Kunsthalle Zürich in 1985 and served as its vice president until 2003. He also taught painting at the Zurich University of the Arts (ZHdK) from 1989 to 2015, influencing a generation of artists.
His exhibitions, such as "Das ganze Leben" (2000) at Kunst Halle Sankt Gallen, highlight his ability to blend irony, minimalism, and a keen observation of daily life. In his own words, he's a “Specialist for normality in all its facets by means of painting and drawing. An unfamiliar view of the familiar brings about the strangeness of the familiar.”
In this interview, Thomas Müllenbach talks about his beginnings, art restoration, his career as independent artist, his time in New York, the professorship in Zürich, how he brought the Kunsthalle Zürich to life, and his recent work. The conversation was conducted in German, English subtitles are available via the YouTube settings.
Studio visit and interview with the artist Thomas Müllenbach. Zürich (Switzerland), February 20, 2025.
He studied at the Kunstakademie in Karlsruhe before moving to Zurich to train as a restorer at the Swiss Institute for Art Research (SIK). His work often explores themes like the architecture of banks and insurance companies ("Geldräume") and reinterprets familiar imagery, as seen in his "Halboriginale" series—unique appropriations of art historical references. Müllenbach initiated and co-founded the Kunsthalle Zürich in 1985 and served as its vice president until 2003. He also taught painting at the Zurich University of the Arts (ZHdK) from 1989 to 2015, influencing a generation of artists.
His exhibitions, such as "Das ganze Leben" (2000) at Kunst Halle Sankt Gallen, highlight his ability to blend irony, minimalism, and a keen observation of daily life. In his own words, he's a “Specialist for normality in all its facets by means of painting and drawing. An unfamiliar view of the familiar brings about the strangeness of the familiar.”
In this interview, Thomas Müllenbach talks about his beginnings, art restoration, his career as independent artist, his time in New York, the professorship in Zürich, how he brought the Kunsthalle Zürich to life, and his recent work. The conversation was conducted in German, English subtitles are available via the YouTube settings.
Studio visit and interview with the artist Thomas Müllenbach. Zürich (Switzerland), February 20, 2025.
Category
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CreativityTranscript
00:00:00How did you start playing football?
00:00:09Tell me about your beginnings.
00:00:14You're not from Zurich, you were born in Koblenz and then grew up in Bonn, right?
00:00:22That's right, I didn't know Koblenz. I was brought up in Bonn and went to school there.
00:00:33Primary school and then high school until I was 19.
00:00:38And then I left for Graz and went to the art academy.
00:00:50I applied for jobs in Berlin and Karlsruhe.
00:00:58I didn't have any private education, so I just drew and drew at home.
00:01:08I put two maps together and applied for jobs in Berlin and Karlsruhe.
00:01:13I had to apply in several places because the rejection rate was high.
00:01:16I was accepted at both of them, to my surprise.
00:01:20And then I went to Karlsruhe, not to Berlin.
00:01:24Because Berlin was very politicized at the time and I just wanted to deal with painting, not with cultural politics.
00:01:35And after that study you went back to Zurich for restoration?
00:01:40Yes, that's more complicated. I didn't study for very long, I was only there for three semesters.
00:01:45With different professors in different classes, because I wasn't satisfied.
00:01:53You didn't really find yourself. One liked me and I didn't like him.
00:01:57And with the other it was the other way around, as always.
00:02:00I got into something that interested me. We painted the Alps.
00:02:08At the beginning I didn't know if it was a painting or a painting.
00:02:11It quickly became clear that it was a painting.
00:02:13And then it annoyed me when I was in collections and looked at old paintings,
00:02:19that I had no idea how they were made.
00:02:21That annoyed me.
00:02:23And then I looked for a place in Europe where I could immerse myself in Renaissance and Baroque painting.
00:02:35And there aren't many places where you can do that.
00:02:45I was actually thinking of England and the Netherlands, more north.
00:02:53I traveled around, I was also in Vienna.
00:02:56That's why I fled, I left it.
00:02:58That was the old-fashioned way.
00:03:01And then I went to Brussels.
00:03:04I was told what they were looking for.
00:03:06At the Musee Royale.
00:03:14I talked to the chief restaurateur, he had an appointment.
00:03:19And he told me, he listened to me and said,
00:03:21what you are looking for, you have to go to Zurich.
00:03:23There is someone who can do that.
00:03:25And that was at the SIG, the Swiss Institute of Art History.
00:03:29That was Thomas Brachert.
00:03:31And Thomas Brachert had an education from old scratch.
00:03:36So he was a good copyist and a very excellent painter.
00:03:41Technologist.
00:03:43So in old tradition.
00:03:45And I just called there and said,
00:03:49I would like to do an interview there.
00:03:54And they said, come over.
00:03:57We talked for ten minutes and then I was accepted.
00:04:01I thought, that's normal.
00:04:03He had a very international crew at the time.
00:04:07He paid a lot of attention to internationality.
00:04:09There were Israelis, Americans, French, Germans, English.
00:04:13Who knows who else from Australia.
00:04:16So that was a whole crew that did some research.
00:04:19And otherwise restored.
00:04:21But I didn't want to become a restaurateur.
00:04:23I went there because of copying.
00:04:26And of course I had to restore a bit.
00:04:29They introduced me there.
00:04:31But I copied a few things there.
00:04:34I was there for two years.
00:04:36And I copied Dutch people there.
00:04:4017th century above all, Italians.
00:04:43I started early with early Gothic.
00:04:47Striegel.
00:04:4918th century.
00:04:53And where did this interest come from?
00:04:55That you wanted to know.
00:04:57And this interest in how you did it.
00:05:00And can you repeat that?
00:05:02Yes, it came from...
00:05:04I kept coming to limits in painting.
00:05:08How does it work?
00:05:10You can just smear it on with paint.
00:05:13And it lasts.
00:05:14It wasn't like that in the old days.
00:05:16And as I said.
00:05:18When I was in the old department of a museum.
00:05:22I had no idea how it was done.
00:05:24And no one could do it.
00:05:26At the academies.
00:05:28The professors can't do it.
00:05:30And then I found it.
00:05:33Not for use.
00:05:36I feel pretty uncomfortable.
00:05:38That I have no idea how it works.
00:05:40I followed it.
00:05:42It's a bit like...
00:05:44Going to the bottom.
00:05:46And that's what I did.
00:05:48But do you actually use it?
00:05:50People ask me a lot.
00:05:52No, I don't use it.
00:05:54I just wanted to exclude it.
00:05:57That's funny.
00:06:01Nowadays I have the impression.
00:06:03When you look at contemporary art.
00:06:06A lot is important.
00:06:08But the craft stuff.
00:06:10Not so much.
00:06:12Exactly.
00:06:14I wasn't so strict.
00:06:16I wanted to know how it works.
00:06:18I wanted to know exactly.
00:06:20Not somehow, roughly and by myself.
00:06:22And you can't actually read that.
00:06:24You have to do that.
00:06:26I can't read.
00:06:28How I build a wall.
00:06:30I can read that.
00:06:32But I can't build a wall in the middle.
00:06:34And I can't make a plaster.
00:06:36And the difference between plaster.
00:06:38And cement plaster.
00:06:40And lime plaster.
00:06:42You have to do that.
00:06:44It's a craft stuff.
00:06:46You need a certain skill.
00:06:48If you have two left hands.
00:06:50You can't do that.
00:06:52And if you have the wrong eyes.
00:06:54You can't do that either.
00:06:56But you can learn a lot.
00:06:58And I was good at that.
00:07:00Until the Vermeer.
00:07:02And I don't know what.
00:07:04Peter Klaas up and down.
00:07:06And so on.
00:07:08Still life.
00:07:10And they were.
00:07:12My copies were.
00:07:14Not so bad.
00:07:16It's fascinating.
00:07:18I'm interested in that too.
00:07:20I'm very close to that.
00:07:22And you have to say.
00:07:24These old masters.
00:07:26Who are so virtuoso.
00:07:28That is something.
00:07:30That is sustainable.
00:07:32Absolutely.
00:07:34And this whole layer painting.
00:07:36It was about the layer painting.
00:07:38I came as a student.
00:07:40At the academy.
00:07:42I started to paint layers.
00:07:44By colleagues.
00:07:46I didn't know.
00:07:48What I was actually doing.
00:07:50And I know that very well today.
00:07:52I know very well.
00:07:54How a baroque painting is built.
00:07:58How did it go on?
00:08:00It went on.
00:08:02I was young.
00:08:04As I said.
00:08:06I didn't want to be a restaurateur.
00:08:08That wasn't my goal.
00:08:10I could have done that.
00:08:12I would have been a very bad restaurateur.
00:08:14It didn't fit me ideologically.
00:08:16To document a picture for a year.
00:08:18What was painted in half a day.
00:08:20I know that.
00:08:26How it went on.
00:08:30Brachert left afterwards.
00:08:32He became director.
00:08:34Of the German National Museum.
00:08:36In Nuremberg.
00:08:38And I had an internship.
00:08:40In Greece.
00:08:42As a restaurateur.
00:08:44At the German Archeological Institute.
00:08:46In Berlin.
00:08:48They accepted me.
00:08:50I spent three months there.
00:08:52Putting old things together.
00:08:54And tidying up.
00:08:56I wanted to be the last wheel on the wagon.
00:08:58But there was only one.
00:09:00The chief restaurateur.
00:09:02And then I came.
00:09:04And he said.
00:09:06We have stocked up our staff.
00:09:08We are now second.
00:09:10And yes.
00:09:12I came back.
00:09:14And he left.
00:09:16And I found it.
00:09:18I am now a free artist.
00:09:20At the end of 1924.
00:09:22How did you get into art?
00:09:24How did you find the galleries?
00:09:26They found me first.
00:09:28I didn't find anything.
00:09:32Here in Switzerland.
00:09:34There are various.
00:09:36Talents.
00:09:40Exhibitions.
00:09:42Exhibitions for scholarships.
00:09:44Exhibitions for scholarships.
00:09:46From the canton.
00:09:48From the city.
00:09:50I participated there.
00:09:54You had to be in Zurich for at least two years.
00:09:56I was there.
00:09:58Then I applied.
00:10:00And I won the first scholarship.
00:10:06Then there were inquiries.
00:10:08And then it started.
00:10:14How was it?
00:10:18Exciting.
00:10:20I was 24.
00:10:22Or 25.
00:10:24At the age of 25.
00:10:26I was an independent artist.
00:10:28Without a side job.
00:10:30I didn't have the permission.
00:10:32To do anything else.
00:10:34I wasn't even allowed to be a waiter.
00:10:38Interesting.
00:10:44Then I hung around.
00:10:46From exhibition to exhibition.
00:10:48From sale to sale.
00:10:50From scholarship.
00:10:52I won all the scholarships in Zurich.
00:10:54Some from the canton.
00:10:56I couldn't participate.
00:10:58Because I was a foreigner.
00:11:00I was excluded.
00:11:02You went abroad.
00:11:04To New York.
00:11:06That was one of the prizes.
00:11:08I went to New York.
00:11:121979.
00:11:14I stayed in New York for a year.
00:11:16That was great.
00:11:18I had nothing to do with New York.
00:11:20My English was bad.
00:11:22Let alone American.
00:11:26Today I can't really speak English anymore.
00:11:28But rather American.
00:11:30I had no idea.
00:11:32Where did I go?
00:11:34I was 29.
00:11:36How did you experience New York?
00:11:38Was it mysterious?
00:11:40That was the wild time in New York.
00:11:42Today we call it the wild time.
00:11:441979.
00:11:46There were a lot of drugs.
00:11:48It was considered dangerous.
00:11:50I never felt danger.
00:11:52I went everywhere.
00:11:54To Brooklyn.
00:11:56It was good.
00:11:58I didn't look rich.
00:12:00I didn't walk around
00:12:02with a camera around my neck.
00:12:04That was clear to me.
00:12:06You shouldn't do that.
00:12:08I don't care.
00:12:10I'm a bad photographer.
00:12:12I'm the worst photographer
00:12:14in the north of the Alps.
00:12:16I can't photograph.
00:12:18It never works.
00:12:20It's blurry.
00:12:22It's shaky.
00:12:24Some artists make a career out of it.
00:12:26I don't know.
00:12:28There was a time when
00:12:30photos had to be bad
00:12:32to be art.
00:12:34It's not my medium.
00:12:36I use technology.
00:12:38I always press the wrong button.
00:12:40It's different than painting
00:12:42where I know which brush to use
00:12:44and which color.
00:12:46It's more complicated
00:12:48but it's not my thing.
00:12:50The high-tech stuff
00:12:52is not my thing.
00:12:54I don't even have a computer.
00:12:56I do everything on my phone.
00:12:58I read that.
00:13:00My phone is out of order.
00:13:02I need a new one.
00:13:04I wanted to write something
00:13:06and it writes something else
00:13:08that I want.
00:13:10At some point,
00:13:12they start to make fun of me
00:13:14so that I buy a new device.
00:13:16Do you have a typewriter?
00:13:18No, but I don't use it.
00:13:20I do everything
00:13:22on my phone.
00:13:24I don't have a TV.
00:13:26I have a wife
00:13:28who is very clever.
00:13:30She says
00:13:32that her eyebrows are twitching
00:13:34when I say,
00:13:36come on, give it to me.
00:13:38But I did everything
00:13:40on my phone.
00:13:46Did you not want
00:13:48to stay in New York?
00:13:50Yes,
00:13:52it was on the verge.
00:13:54I already had
00:13:56it.
00:13:58It was not clear
00:14:00whether I would stay.
00:14:02There were different reasons
00:14:04why we didn't stay.
00:14:06Today I am glad
00:14:08that I came back.
00:14:10There was a possibility
00:14:12to buy a loft
00:14:14in the Tribeca.
00:14:16Today it would be worth ten times
00:14:18more.
00:14:22You have to focus.
00:14:24I am very glad
00:14:26that we came back.
00:14:30But that's another topic.
00:14:32We didn't know that back then.
00:14:36Did you come back?
00:14:38You were a professor.
00:14:40Yes, not so fast.
00:14:42I was 30 in New York.
00:14:44I celebrated my birthday
00:14:46and said goodbye
00:14:48to my friends.
00:14:52The USA was open.
00:14:54When I came back,
00:14:56I was depressed
00:14:58because everything was so small
00:15:00and you get used to
00:15:02the speed very quickly.
00:15:08The rooms were so small
00:15:10that I imagined
00:15:12that it would be bigger.
00:15:14We were in an old house
00:15:16in Schwamendingen.
00:15:18It was built in 1543.
00:15:20It was dark.
00:15:24Very romantic, dark,
00:15:26small rooms.
00:15:28I continued to work.
00:15:30I had an exhibition
00:15:32in the Kunsthaus.
00:15:34My first museum exhibition
00:15:36with 30 exhibitions.
00:15:38Not upstairs in the Grand Hall,
00:15:40but downstairs.
00:15:42That was with the works
00:15:44that I did in New York.
00:15:46They were very quiet works,
00:15:48big and abstract.
00:15:54With the abstract,
00:15:56it went back and forth.
00:15:58As a student,
00:16:00I worked oppositely,
00:16:02but so far abstract.
00:16:04I was told
00:16:06that I should decide
00:16:08abstractly or oppositely.
00:16:10These were professional accusations.
00:16:14I said I would have decided
00:16:16for art.
00:16:18It's strange that you have to decide.
00:16:20Innovation always
00:16:22arises
00:16:24through combinations of things.
00:16:26Exactly.
00:16:28Those were the ideological
00:16:30battles.
00:16:32But that's not interesting.
00:16:36That was my bold answer.
00:16:38I would have decided for art.
00:16:46The works I did in New York
00:16:48were like
00:16:50a romantic landscape.
00:16:52Where it goes to the horizon,
00:16:54everything disappears.
00:16:56Then I only painted
00:16:58where it disappears,
00:17:00where it only flutters.
00:17:02Those were abstract works.
00:17:04Yes.
00:17:06Then it went on.
00:17:08I did galleries.
00:17:14I did galleries
00:17:16from one to another.
00:17:18Some closed,
00:17:20others didn't.
00:17:22Etc.
00:17:24It just went on.
00:17:26The docenture
00:17:28came later.
00:17:30I was there.
00:17:34In 1936.
00:17:36Five or six years later.
00:17:38I was asked
00:17:40by colleagues.
00:17:42It was called
00:17:44School of Design.
00:17:46Then it was called
00:17:48Higher School of Design.
00:17:50Then it was called
00:17:52University of Design.
00:17:54They changed their names
00:17:56like other people.
00:17:58I was asked
00:18:00for a course
00:18:02in drawing and painting.
00:18:04They were not allowed
00:18:06to speak
00:18:08about art
00:18:10because of the law.
00:18:12It was forbidden.
00:18:14Because
00:18:16– and now it's getting very heretical –
00:18:18because
00:18:20it was a school,
00:18:22a vocational school.
00:18:24An artist
00:18:26was not an approved profession.
00:18:28Unlike a musician
00:18:30or an actor.
00:18:32Musicians were allowed,
00:18:34but artists
00:18:36were not allowed in Bern.
00:18:38It had to be approved
00:18:40by Bern.
00:18:42It was nice.
00:18:44There was only a drawing course,
00:18:46a textile class,
00:18:48but
00:18:50there was no class for
00:18:52art.
00:18:54From the point of view of Germany,
00:18:56France, Italy,
00:18:58there were no academies.
00:19:00Completely incomprehensible.
00:19:02But that's connected
00:19:04with the political progress.
00:19:06They had their dukes
00:19:08and kings
00:19:10and they needed good artists.
00:19:12The academy was there
00:19:14to provide them with good artists.
00:19:16Here in the Farmers'
00:19:18and Citizens' Republic
00:19:20there was no feudalism,
00:19:22so there were no academies,
00:19:24so there was no visual art.
00:19:26That's highly interesting.
00:19:28It was promoted
00:19:30and then
00:19:32it became an academy.
00:19:34It was a vocational school,
00:19:36with the vocationalization.
00:19:38And from there
00:19:40we had to
00:19:42as founders,
00:19:44I was a co-founder
00:19:46of this art class
00:19:48with my colleague
00:19:52Höppner.
00:19:54We were all men,
00:19:56which we didn't like,
00:19:58but that's how it was.
00:20:00Höppner, Emch,
00:20:02Christoph Schenker and me.
00:20:04And
00:20:06it was
00:20:08vocationalized
00:20:10and then there was
00:20:12a lot of bureaucracy
00:20:14which we all hated.
00:20:16I was a lecturer
00:20:18and then
00:20:20I became a professor.
00:20:22What was that?
00:20:24Bureaucratization?
00:20:26Yes, there was
00:20:28so that it was
00:20:30recognized as a university,
00:20:32you had to prove certain things.
00:20:34Theory and so on.
00:20:36Everything that wasn't
00:20:38so and so before,
00:20:40lectures,
00:20:42there were hours of calculations
00:20:44and
00:20:46admission restrictions.
00:20:48We simply
00:20:50admitted people
00:20:52we thought were good
00:20:54and all of a sudden,
00:20:56only with a degree or
00:20:58an exception.
00:21:00And we were often
00:21:02crossed with the bureaucracy
00:21:04because we still admitted people
00:21:06we shouldn't have admitted.
00:21:08And we just said,
00:21:10he's good, we'll admit him.
00:21:12And then there were rumors
00:21:14from above,
00:21:16they would date us back
00:21:18and today you can
00:21:20become a doctor or something.
00:21:22Doctor of Arts.
00:21:24Okay.
00:21:26However.
00:21:28Did it get worse
00:21:30with time?
00:21:32It got worse, definitely.
00:21:34In my opinion, it's not a good development.
00:21:36And what I hear from students,
00:21:38they complain about it.
00:21:40When I hear today's students
00:21:42and back then, I did a survey
00:21:44what people would rather have.
00:21:46A diploma degree
00:21:48or a bachelor's or master's degree.
00:21:50The answers were
00:21:52devastating for the
00:21:54Bologna system.
00:21:56With all the points
00:21:58ECTS.
00:22:00ECTS, 30 points
00:22:02per semester.
00:22:04There were many students
00:22:06who collected their points
00:22:08by going everywhere
00:22:10and got points, but they weren't artists.
00:22:12Voila.
00:22:14I understood
00:22:16to support them
00:22:18that they make good art.
00:22:20It's strange
00:22:22that it's so bureaucratic
00:22:24in this area.
00:22:26That's obvious
00:22:28as soon as it's so high-level
00:22:30and state-owned.
00:22:32You can understand it.
00:22:34Art studies are an in-between thing.
00:22:36On the one hand, knowledge
00:22:38is absurd.
00:22:40It's not science or medicine
00:22:42that matters.
00:22:44And it's not art history.
00:22:46Art history is
00:22:48quasi-scientific,
00:22:50half-scientific,
00:22:52settled at the ETH or at the university.
00:22:54But making art,
00:22:56how does it work
00:22:58with the survey,
00:23:00the quality assessment,
00:23:02and so on.
00:23:04It's much more complicated.
00:23:06What criteria?
00:23:08Criterion catalog, and so on.
00:23:10But I've been retired for 10 years.
00:23:16And then you
00:23:18initiated the art world.
00:23:20Yes, that's a completely
00:23:22different story.
00:23:24Besides being an artist,
00:23:26I'm a,
00:23:28as they say,
00:23:30a homo politicus.
00:23:32I read a lot
00:23:34and get to know
00:23:36things.
00:23:38When I came back
00:23:40from New York,
00:23:42I was invited
00:23:44as a member
00:23:46of the
00:23:48board of the Kunsthaus
00:23:50by the city council.
00:23:52The city council
00:23:54called me
00:23:56as an artistic delegate.
00:23:58I was 30
00:24:00in this
00:24:02high-ranking
00:24:04council.
00:24:06I
00:24:08took a look at it
00:24:10and found that
00:24:12a Kunsthalle is missing in Zurich.
00:24:14Because the Kunsthaus is overloaded
00:24:16with tasks.
00:24:18Classical, modern,
00:24:20historical art,
00:24:22contemporary,
00:24:24collection.
00:24:26But a Kunsthalle is missing
00:24:28exclusively for contemporary art.
00:24:30And
00:24:32since I was in this council,
00:24:34I tried to use it
00:24:36to found a Kunsthalle
00:24:38with the roof
00:24:40of the Kunsthausgesellschaft.
00:24:42That was my idea.
00:24:44Back then, there was the Helmhaus,
00:24:46which was completely underused
00:24:48or with absurd exhibitions.
00:24:50The hairstyle in the
00:24:52baroque or something.
00:24:54They made weird exhibitions.
00:24:56That was from the city.
00:24:58I said, we could
00:25:00make a Kunsthalle with our own
00:25:02management, but the membership
00:25:04with the Kunstgesellschaft.
00:25:06Back then, the Kunsthausgesellschaft
00:25:08had 18,000 or 19,000 members.
00:25:10Today, it's 24,000
00:25:12or even more.
00:25:14In order not to
00:25:16have to found a new
00:25:18association, we could
00:25:20take that in, a slight increase,
00:25:2210 or 20 francs
00:25:24in the contribution.
00:25:26Kunsthaus, Kunsthalle and so on.
00:25:28That's what I suggested to the management.
00:25:32Back then, Felix Baumann
00:25:34and
00:25:36the president,
00:25:38that was Kastelberg.
00:25:40Yes.
00:25:42And then I
00:25:44interpreted that, we should do that.
00:25:46And then they said,
00:25:48we don't want that.
00:25:50With the argument,
00:25:52we don't want
00:25:54this increase of power.
00:25:56Okay.
00:26:02Weird reason?
00:26:04Weird reason?
00:26:06I think it was proposed.
00:26:08I don't know.
00:26:10It would have meant work and so on.
00:26:12But they kindly
00:26:14tapped me on the shoulder and said,
00:26:16Müllenbach, if you want to found a Kunsthalle,
00:26:18then do that.
00:26:20And then I said, okay.
00:26:22Okay.
00:26:24Because they didn't believe
00:26:26that I would do that.
00:26:28Logically not.
00:26:30I said, okay.
00:26:32May I take that 1 to 1?
00:26:34If I found a Kunsthalle,
00:26:36I have your word
00:26:38that you will not only
00:26:40not prevent us, but
00:26:42when asked in public,
00:26:44that you welcome that.
00:26:46And they promised me that.
00:26:48And they kept their word.
00:26:50And then
00:26:52I met people
00:26:54that I knew.
00:26:56Different professions.
00:27:04Architecture,
00:27:08art theory,
00:27:12photography,
00:27:14and so on.
00:27:16No colleagues.
00:27:18I didn't invite any artists.
00:27:20Not because I was afraid
00:27:22of
00:27:28other colleagues.
00:27:30It can't be
00:27:32an artist thing.
00:27:34It has to be beyond that.
00:27:36It's not a self-help organization.
00:27:38There was Produga,
00:27:40a producer gallery and so on.
00:27:42Not there.
00:27:44That's not possible.
00:27:46Really high-ranking people.
00:27:48Bankers, lawyers.
00:27:50I called
00:27:52all of them
00:27:54and invited them
00:27:56that I knew.
00:27:58Of course there was a bank as well.
00:28:02And then
00:28:06we set a founding date.
00:28:08It was a white wind
00:28:10and we founded the thing.
00:28:14And the people from Kunsthaus?
00:28:16They weren't there.
00:28:18But they were asked
00:28:20by the press.
00:28:22What do you think?
00:28:24It's good to have a gallery.
00:28:26They kept their word.
00:28:28If they said
00:28:30it would be a failure.
00:28:34With this conversation
00:28:36I didn't get them on board.
00:28:38But
00:28:40they advocated it.
00:28:42Good.
00:28:44And with that
00:28:46it was advocated by the city.
00:28:48I knew them from the presidential department.
00:28:50They were all oriented.
00:28:52And then it would have almost failed
00:28:54at the founding meeting
00:28:56because it wasn't clear
00:28:58who would be president.
00:29:00You're the initiator.
00:29:02I won't be president.
00:29:04First of all, I'm a foreigner.
00:29:06Second of all, I'm an artist.
00:29:08That's not possible.
00:29:10And thirdly, I'm a secretary.
00:29:12And fourthly, I don't have access
00:29:14to Zürichberg.
00:29:16That's not possible.
00:29:18And how did you find someone?
00:29:20Peter Bossart
00:29:22was the first president.
00:29:24The great collector.
00:29:26He sat next to me.
00:29:28He had a lot of works.
00:29:30Today I'm in the
00:29:32Kunstzeughaus Rapperswil.
00:29:34He was a great collector.
00:29:36A great art lover.
00:29:38I said, Peter, you have to do it.
00:29:40And they wanted to go.
00:29:42It was about to fail.
00:29:44If it wasn't clear, we would go.
00:29:46Then it would have been dead.
00:29:48Without a president, it's not possible.
00:29:50I said, Peter, you have to do it.
00:29:52And he did it.
00:29:54It was a bit cruel.
00:29:56I mean, as you said,
00:29:58the Kunstzeughaus Rapperswil
00:30:00doesn't do it anyway.
00:30:02Many people have ideas.
00:30:04But to go through it,
00:30:06then Peter Bossart
00:30:08set up a fantastic presidency.
00:30:10He had a wonderful secretary.
00:30:12A top lawyer
00:30:14with a great secretary.
00:30:16She also participated.
00:30:18Without a secretary.
00:30:20Completely hopeless.
00:30:22Then I was
00:30:24vice president for 18 years
00:30:26until it finally
00:30:28started.
00:30:32It was also suggested to me
00:30:34that I wanted
00:30:36to find a job.
00:30:38I said, I don't want to be a curator.
00:30:40Neither president, nor curator,
00:30:42nor director, nor anything else.
00:30:44I just want an art gallery for Zurich.
00:30:46Period.
00:30:48We have many exhibitions.
00:30:50I didn't like it.
00:30:52It's normal.
00:30:54An art gallery.
00:30:56It's been around for 40 years.
00:30:58I've been aware of it
00:31:00since 2005.
00:31:02I've been following it
00:31:04since 2005.
00:31:06But the exhibitions
00:31:08have been
00:31:10quite a success.
00:31:12I remember the exhibitions.
00:31:14You have
00:31:16personal preferences.
00:31:18But it was
00:31:20always great.
00:31:24It's a very high level.
00:31:26There is a ranking
00:31:28for contemporary art
00:31:30worldwide.
00:31:32You are among the
00:31:3420.
00:31:3621.
00:31:38For years.
00:31:40It has become
00:31:42a very important institute.
00:31:44Not only for Zurich and Switzerland,
00:31:46but internationally.
00:31:48It's never boring.
00:31:50It has also changed
00:31:52because of the curators.
00:31:54It's very exciting.
00:31:56Of course,
00:31:58it had a different name
00:32:00than Daniel Baumann.
00:32:02Or Bernhard Bürgi.
00:32:04And it's great
00:32:06that it's still
00:32:08on the same level.
00:32:10We founded it
00:32:12without money,
00:32:14without space
00:32:16and without a director.
00:32:18It was a pure will.
00:32:20We immediately founded
00:32:22a broad association.
00:32:24It was clear
00:32:26that it had to be supported broadly.
00:32:28There was an attempt
00:32:30to found an art gallery
00:32:32without a club,
00:32:34without support.
00:32:36That was Urs Rausmüller.
00:32:38It was a huge failure.
00:32:40Immediately.
00:32:42You have to anchor it.
00:32:48We didn't have all that.
00:32:50In the first period,
00:32:52we said,
00:32:54we're looking for rooms
00:32:56that are somehow free.
00:32:58Then a curator
00:33:00will play the room.
00:33:04We did that.
00:33:08It was a coincidence.
00:33:10Then we had a room
00:33:12outside the Mühle Tiefenbrunnen.
00:33:14Half-annually.
00:33:16We couldn't afford it
00:33:18every year.
00:33:20We shared it with a gallery.
00:33:22The gallery Torske and Torske.
00:33:26It had to go abroad
00:33:28because of legal problems.
00:33:38Then we found the rooms
00:33:40in Westend.
00:33:42The first curator
00:33:44and director was Bernhard Bürgi.
00:33:46You can read the rest
00:33:48how it went on.
00:33:50Bernhard Bürgi was there for a long time.
00:33:5212 or 13 years.
00:33:54Then came Beatrix Ruf,
00:33:56then Daniel Baumann,
00:33:58and now these are the curators.
00:34:00I'm curious
00:34:02how it will go on.
00:34:04We're all curious.
00:34:08You did your exhibition.
00:34:14You talked about your work
00:34:16in New York.
00:34:18I watched it.
00:34:22The statement between
00:34:24figurative and abstract.
00:34:26Where are you at the moment?
00:34:28Are there different phases?
00:34:30Looking back at your career,
00:34:32are there different phases?
00:34:36Yes, there have been phases.
00:34:38What hasn't changed
00:34:40is that I've always been
00:34:42interested in normality.
00:34:44I don't like
00:34:46very exciting art.
00:34:48The opposite of
00:34:50expressive Basquiat.
00:34:54Although Basquiat
00:34:56worked with Warhol,
00:34:58Warhol was much more
00:35:00interested in normality
00:35:02and Basquiat was more like
00:35:04I'm there.
00:35:06If we take these two,
00:35:08they worked together.
00:35:10I'm interested in normality,
00:35:12in calm things,
00:35:14but I did a lot of things
00:35:16in recent times
00:35:18about high-tech,
00:35:20high-complex interior spaces
00:35:22that I
00:35:24don't understand.
00:35:30Here in the exhibition
00:35:32I have ITER,
00:35:34six-part work.
00:35:36It's an experimental reactor
00:35:38of the most complex
00:35:40there is.
00:35:42It's like
00:35:44an ancient search
00:35:46for the machine
00:35:48that keeps reproducing.
00:35:50I'm fascinated by such things,
00:35:52especially
00:35:54by the aesthetics.
00:35:56These are so complex spaces
00:35:58that I'm interested in aesthetics.
00:36:00Aesthetics in such things
00:36:02like the airplane
00:36:04cockpits I made
00:36:06or the operating room
00:36:08look chaotic,
00:36:10but it works.
00:36:12This gap
00:36:14between
00:36:16a highly complex
00:36:18technology
00:36:20and an anarchic
00:36:22look is a gap
00:36:24that interests me.
00:36:26I'm on the anarchic side.
00:36:28As a 16-year-old
00:36:30at rock concerts,
00:36:32when they built their towers
00:36:34with speakers
00:36:36with a wiring,
00:36:38I thought,
00:36:40how can the sound
00:36:42get through?
00:36:44It works, but it looks chaotic.
00:36:46It's like hand surgery
00:36:48in a hospital.
00:36:50Highly complex things
00:36:52are similar.
00:36:54It's crazy.
00:36:56I also made
00:36:58the driver's cab
00:37:00of an MD-11.
00:37:02It was exhibited
00:37:04twice in the Kunsthaus.
00:37:06That's the MD-11
00:37:08that crashed
00:37:10in Canada.
00:37:12It's interesting
00:37:14that the fewest people
00:37:16know how something
00:37:18technical works.
00:37:20Exactly.
00:37:22But everyone has a picture
00:37:24in their head.
00:37:26It's different from the technicians
00:37:28who know it.
00:37:30I don't even understand
00:37:32how a refrigerator works.
00:37:34I don't understand
00:37:36how you make energy cold.
00:37:38I don't get it.
00:37:40Of course,
00:37:42you can change it.
00:37:44But I think it's incredible.
00:37:46They have a certain
00:37:48aesthetic.
00:37:50I'm interested in that.
00:37:52I follow it.
00:37:54All those high-tech things
00:37:56in drawings
00:37:58and in watercolor.
00:38:00I'm away from oil.
00:38:02For three or four years
00:38:04I only do
00:38:06watercolors,
00:38:08which is much more difficult.
00:38:10Why do you do that?
00:38:12Is there a reason?
00:38:14It makes me too fat.
00:38:16At some point,
00:38:18everything was too fat for me.
00:38:20The oil is so fat.
00:38:22The tension
00:38:24and the canvas
00:38:26and everything.
00:38:28Watercolor is like
00:38:30almost nothing.
00:38:32For me, watercolor
00:38:34is the discipline
00:38:36of painting.
00:38:38The step from complete
00:38:40failure
00:38:42to success is so tiny.
00:38:44I can't even name
00:38:46why it is.
00:38:48But it's there.
00:38:50Before, it was just shit.
00:38:52That's great.
00:38:54There's a big watercolor.
00:38:56I can unpack it if you want.
00:38:59I noticed
00:39:01that in many art exhibitions
00:39:03like in Baselitz,
00:39:05there was a parallel exhibition
00:39:07in the Fondation and the Kunstmuseum.
00:39:09I'm more interested in the drawings
00:39:11than in the paintings.
00:39:13That's so fat.
00:39:15Very German.
00:39:17Baselitz is very German.
00:39:19Whether he represents it or not.
00:39:21But you can't be more German.
00:39:23Unlike the Polke.
00:39:25He's flatter
00:39:27and more relaxed.
00:39:29If I had to choose
00:39:31between Baselitz and Polke,
00:39:33it's Polke, of course.
00:39:35It's the lightness
00:39:37and the freedom.
00:39:39Yes, the freedom.
00:39:41The heaviness.
00:39:43Yes, exactly.
00:39:45But I don't have to decide that.
00:39:47They're much bigger names
00:39:49than my small name.
00:39:51They're much more well-known.
00:39:53But it's funny
00:39:55that you see me
00:39:57as a bit higher.
00:39:59You said
00:40:01that with watercolors
00:40:03you can't make mistakes.
00:40:05It's more spontaneous for you.
00:40:07Yes, of course.
00:40:09It's more direct.
00:40:11Of course.
00:40:13It's a relatively
00:40:15large watercolor.
00:40:17There are bigger ones.
00:40:19Here are the big ones
00:40:21on fabric.
00:40:23It's crazy.
00:40:25It's incredibly
00:40:27tricky to do.
00:40:29But...
00:40:31Okay.
00:40:33These simple
00:40:35complicated things
00:40:37are complicated
00:40:39in the technique.
00:40:41But...
00:40:43No, complicated
00:40:45in the look.
00:40:47But functional.
00:40:49I don't know.
00:40:51Not for the functionality,
00:40:53but for the look.
00:40:55Where do you get
00:40:57your inspiration?
00:40:59Do you read it in the newspaper?
00:41:01Is it interesting?
00:41:03Yes, yes.
00:41:05I...
00:41:07Many artists go online
00:41:09and look for their stuff.
00:41:11I don't do that.
00:41:13I'm a newspaper reader.
00:41:15Here are the next things.
00:41:21There's a picture.
00:41:27What's that?
00:41:29I don't know.
00:41:31What's that?
00:41:33Wait a minute.
00:41:37Emergency power unit.
00:41:41Do you need it?
00:41:43Emergency power unit.
00:41:45I think it's great.
00:41:47It's...
00:41:49I don't know
00:41:51if I put it in the center.
00:41:53It's almost too central.
00:41:55Maybe I leave it out.
00:41:57I'm very free with it.
00:41:59Delivery of an emergency patient.
00:42:01I think it's great.
00:42:03This room is...
00:42:05It's like
00:42:07Odyssey in space.
00:42:09But it's everyday life.
00:42:11Stuff like that.
00:42:15Exam room.
00:42:17I also have hand surgery.
00:42:19I don't know what that is.
00:42:21The big ones.
00:42:23A lot of
00:42:25nuclear reactors.
00:42:27Etc.
00:42:29Life is interesting.
00:42:31A lot is going on at the moment.
00:42:33A lot is disappearing.
00:42:35We saw it before.
00:42:37The technology is disappearing.
00:42:39It's disappearing.
00:42:41It's losing...
00:42:43Atomized.
00:42:47It's also
00:42:49aesthetically interesting.
00:42:51You used to have steam engines.
00:42:53Big ones. Black.
00:42:59It's shrinking.
00:43:01It's disappearing.
00:43:03Nowhere.
00:43:05It's crazy.
00:43:07But it's highly complex.
00:43:11I've been asked
00:43:13if I make fun of it.
00:43:15I think it's
00:43:17almost the opposite.
00:43:19I celebrate their
00:43:21unintentional aesthetics.
00:43:23They don't do it
00:43:25because it's aesthetically great.
00:43:27It just works.
00:43:29It's aesthetically incredible.
00:43:31It's exactly the opposite.
00:43:33It's interesting.
00:43:35A lot of planes
00:43:37even military planes
00:43:39are great.
00:43:41They are high performance parts
00:43:43and have a certain
00:43:45elegance.
00:43:47You don't think
00:43:49something has to go there.
00:43:51It comes from
00:43:53the function.
00:43:55It's interesting
00:43:57that it's often
00:43:59aesthetically great.
00:44:01To see such things
00:44:03is
00:44:05interesting.
00:44:07Those are my topics.
00:44:09I used to do a lot of style lives.
00:44:11For me, interior style lives
00:44:13are close.
00:44:15It's an interior.
00:44:21I read in the newspaper
00:44:23that you made
00:44:25a series called Woke.
00:44:27Yes.
00:44:31These are it.
00:44:35I have this little catalog
00:44:37from Sam Scherer.
00:44:39I don't have it anymore.
00:44:41It's a PDF.
00:44:43There you have it.
00:44:45These are the people
00:44:47who...
00:44:49For me,
00:44:51Woke is a fashion term.
00:44:53He replaced
00:44:55the old-fashioned word
00:44:57ethics.
00:45:03Those who
00:45:05call themselves
00:45:07liberals
00:45:09are right
00:45:11and superior to the others.
00:45:13Period.
00:45:15If you doubt that,
00:45:17you're already a pig.
00:45:19This attitude
00:45:21doesn't suit me.
00:45:23I call myself a liberal.
00:45:25There are decent
00:45:27FDP people and
00:45:29economic leaders.
00:45:31This attitude,
00:45:33this rigid attitude,
00:45:35I don't like.
00:45:37It's not my thing.
00:45:39Someone once said,
00:45:41it used to be called nice to each other.
00:45:43Or I said ethics.
00:45:45Nice to each other.
00:45:47I think it's a matter of course.
00:45:49There are
00:45:51ups and downs.
00:45:53They are absurd.
00:45:55For example,
00:45:57fighting between two houses
00:45:59in Zurich.
00:46:01Because someone
00:46:03feels like he has to leave.
00:46:05Those are
00:46:07noble houses.
00:46:09And the Moor's pharmacy
00:46:11was from the Arab era.
00:46:13They are
00:46:15completely wrong.
00:46:17And if society says,
00:46:19we can't tell anyone
00:46:21a wrong feeling,
00:46:23if a black person comes by
00:46:25and feels like he has to leave,
00:46:27then we have to cover it up.
00:46:29Sorry.
00:46:31I feel insulted
00:46:33when I go through
00:46:35and have ugly front yards.
00:46:37Get rid of it.
00:46:39Sorry,
00:46:41somewhere it stops.
00:46:43I think it's
00:46:45a bit strange
00:46:47that
00:46:49this
00:46:51irresistibility,
00:46:53that you no longer
00:46:55talk to each other
00:46:57on certain topics.
00:46:59I think
00:47:01sometimes it's difficult
00:47:03to talk about politics
00:47:05because you can no longer
00:47:07argue reasonably.
00:47:09Because everyone,
00:47:11left or right,
00:47:13up or down,
00:47:15it's no longer
00:47:17reasonable.
00:47:19What shocked me
00:47:21is that you can no longer
00:47:23get into a discussion.
00:47:25The willingness to discuss
00:47:27In the universities
00:47:29the pro-Israeli
00:47:31opinions are shouted down.
00:47:33Those are universities.
00:47:35By people who study
00:47:37and who might be
00:47:39economic or political leaders.
00:47:41They shout down the other people.
00:47:43Sorry.
00:47:45It gets bad there.
00:47:49It really gets bad there.
00:47:51I have
00:47:53a picture
00:47:55with Putin
00:47:57years ago
00:47:59before he
00:48:01marched somewhere.
00:48:03I made a picture
00:48:05where he
00:48:07talks to the world.
00:48:09Where he explains
00:48:11his worldview
00:48:13to the whole world.
00:48:15This picture
00:48:17is from a long time ago.
00:48:19It's
00:48:21maybe here.
00:48:23A speech to the world.
00:48:25It's 10 years ago.
00:48:27This is it.
00:48:29It's from a hall.
00:48:31I don't show Putin
00:48:33or anything. I only show the hall
00:48:35with the many people inside.
00:48:37And somewhere a microphone comes in
00:48:39which looks like a cracker.
00:48:41That's the speech to the world.
00:48:43Things like that.
00:48:45It's translated politics.
00:48:47These are
00:48:49...
00:48:53What I like about art
00:48:55is when it's not too clear.
00:48:57Exactly.
00:48:59Like with the microphone.
00:49:01Otherwise it gets very artistic.
00:49:03It's only readable in time.
00:49:05It's not general anymore.
00:49:07It's a room in a lab.
00:49:09It's white in white.
00:49:11These are the big ones
00:49:13that were exhibited in the art hall.
00:49:15If you want,
00:49:17I can unpack something like this.
00:49:19I'll unpack this one.
00:49:25It just came back.
00:49:27That's why it's still wrapped.
00:49:45The glue.
00:49:59The glue.
00:50:03I got this from my gallery.
00:50:05I had a gallery
00:50:07when I was free.
00:50:09I found you
00:50:11with the bubble wrap.
00:50:13With the bubble wrap.
00:50:15Exactly.
00:50:17Every now and then I say
00:50:19that our time
00:50:21won't be called the atomic age
00:50:23in 100 years,
00:50:25but the glue age.
00:50:29We always make jokes
00:50:31about duct tape.
00:50:33This stuff that you can use
00:50:35on everything.
00:50:37If you peel off the decal.
00:50:39What's it called? Duct tape?
00:50:41Duct tape, yes.
00:50:43Recently,
00:50:45a few years ago,
00:50:47there was a car scene
00:50:49near the art hall.
00:50:51He really glued the half of the car
00:50:53with duct tape.
00:50:55Awesome.
00:50:59This is a work that
00:51:01I can hang up.
00:51:05Is that good?
00:51:07Wait.
00:51:09We have nails up there.
00:51:19This is a room
00:51:21that comes from the industry.
00:51:23This is
00:51:25the most abstract
00:51:27of the tubes.
00:51:29As you can see, there are tubes.
00:51:31This is also
00:51:33derived from some
00:51:35photos.
00:51:39It still has a tiny
00:51:41spatial aspect,
00:51:43but not much.
00:51:45It's just a picture
00:51:47where you say,
00:51:49okay, abstract, yet still
00:51:51spatial.
00:51:53From there,
00:51:55it's a very typical picture
00:51:57in my opinion.
00:51:59Do you draw on it?
00:52:01No, I never draw.
00:52:03I never draw.
00:52:05I draw every day,
00:52:07but not on the pictures.
00:52:09Neither with charcoal,
00:52:11nor with pencil, nor anything else.
00:52:13I start right away.
00:52:15What I do for a long time,
00:52:17when I implement something like this,
00:52:21is to think about
00:52:23how to start.
00:52:25How do I start?
00:52:27I start with the green.
00:52:31I don't know yet.
00:52:33It's been lying around for a while now.
00:52:35Then I turn it around
00:52:37until I know what I want.
00:52:39How do I start?
00:52:41So you think about it relatively long in advance.
00:52:43Yes.
00:52:45That's how it is.
00:52:47That's how it is.
00:52:49Because the drawing,
00:52:51the daily drawing,
00:52:53that's something different.
00:52:55They don't flow directly
00:52:57into the pictures.
00:52:59There's also such absurd stuff.
00:53:03I say it's like brushing your teeth.
00:53:05In the evenings,
00:53:07I often draw in front of me.
00:53:09That's partly counterproductive.
00:53:13These are the very simple ones.
00:53:17This, for example,
00:53:19is also related to the
00:53:21Behind Abstract.
00:53:23That's the pure irony.
00:53:25Behind Abstract.
00:53:27There's a lady smiling in front of her.
00:53:29Almost childish, isn't it?
00:53:33That's interesting.
00:53:35I was once
00:53:37in the Santa Fe
00:53:39Clifford Still Museum.
00:53:41There was a lecture
00:53:43about how he
00:53:45went from object to abstract.
00:53:47With the cracks.
00:53:49Yes.
00:53:53I can show you
00:53:55a series here that
00:53:57wasn't on display
00:53:59and that I actually still like.
00:54:01They're relatively
00:54:03new.
00:54:05And that's another exception.
00:54:07It's not a watercolor.
00:54:09Here I have taken very creepy colors.
00:54:11And that's industrial colors
00:54:13where there are some
00:54:15remains of
00:54:17lacquers and so on.
00:54:19But these are all rooms.
00:54:21These are all rooms
00:54:27that are also
00:54:29almost abstract.
00:54:33Here's a bed somewhere.
00:54:35Suddenly
00:54:37a bed appears.
00:54:41This is really
00:54:43with lacquer remains
00:54:45and so on.
00:54:47Really violent.
00:54:49Here it is also shiny
00:54:51and so on.
00:54:53Cans
00:54:55where I still found remains.
00:54:59Yes, from the house.
00:55:01No artist colors.
00:55:03No industrial colors.
00:55:05There is still a remain
00:55:07and then I smear it
00:55:09through here.
00:55:11And then I had this paper
00:55:13and smear it on it.
00:55:15So it's really a waste.
00:55:17I still like them.
00:55:19They have a lot to do with the things
00:55:21that I also do in watercolors.
00:55:23And for them there are also
00:55:25templates where you found something?
00:55:27Yes, partly.
00:55:29Partly and partly
00:55:31not.
00:55:33Partly out of my head.
00:55:35Somehow.
00:55:37But very, very free.
00:55:43Behind abstract.
00:55:45That's really
00:55:47a very nice title.
00:55:51The studio here.
00:55:53Did you build it yourself?
00:55:55Yes.
00:55:57Here was a garage.
00:55:59We took over the house
00:56:0135 years ago.
00:56:05This is the
00:56:07great-grandfather's house
00:56:09of Isabella, my wife.
00:56:11She grew up here in Zurich.
00:56:15When we were
00:56:17offered this by her father,
00:56:19we said,
00:56:21okay, we have to tear down the garage
00:56:23and have to build an atelier.
00:56:25My wife Isabella
00:56:27had a practice downstairs
00:56:29as physiotherapy
00:56:31and up here the atelier.
00:56:33This is not drawn by me.
00:56:35This is drawn by her father
00:56:37who was an architect.
00:56:39Who has not lived for some time.
00:56:41What do you need
00:56:43and what does it look like?
00:56:45Then we have this here.
00:56:49What I also found
00:56:51when I first came here,
00:56:53good light, right?
00:56:55Yes, the light is good here.
00:56:57Pretty good with the two top lights.
00:56:59These strange corner windows
00:57:01are made
00:57:03so that you can put through
00:57:05very large formats.
00:57:07It's hard to get them out.
00:57:09You have to put through such formats.
00:57:11Clever!
00:57:13And they don't disturb the walls.
00:57:15It has too much in here.
00:57:17I still have a warehouse
00:57:19in Ephratikon.
00:57:21I would urgently need
00:57:23to rent a van again
00:57:25and empty it again.
00:57:27It's really clever.
00:57:29I notice it
00:57:31especially when filming.
00:57:33If a museum or a gallery
00:57:35has a lot of side windows,
00:57:37you always have the problem
00:57:39with alternating white balance.
00:57:41That can be really difficult.
00:57:43White balance.
00:57:45Unfortunately,
00:57:47it is not the human eye
00:57:49that adapts to you.
00:57:51You have your difficulties.
00:57:53The word white balance
00:57:55is difficult.
00:58:03I think
00:58:07that's about it.
00:58:09Exactly.
00:58:11Do you have anything
00:58:13you would like to learn?
00:58:15Did you forget something important?
00:58:17I often don't know
00:58:19what is so important.
00:58:21I often paint the unimportant.
00:58:23Not the important.
00:58:25That is sometimes important.
00:58:27Exactly.
00:58:31With the unimportant
00:58:33I made an observation.
00:58:35Many young people
00:58:37at the weekend
00:58:39go from one party
00:58:41to the next
00:58:43and they have to jump
00:58:45because they think
00:58:47maybe the other party
00:58:49is more important.
00:58:51And I say
00:58:53we always miss the most important.
00:58:55Even now where we are standing
00:58:57there is something much more important.
00:58:59If you let it go
00:59:01on your tongue
00:59:03that you are not
00:59:05at the most important place in the world
00:59:07then it lives differently.
00:59:09That was a very nice
00:59:11closing word.
00:59:13A friend of mine
00:59:15studied Germanistics
00:59:17and said
00:59:19courage to the gap.
00:59:21Exactly. Courage to the gap
00:59:23and I say courage to the unimportant.
00:59:25I have many
00:59:27of my works
00:59:29that are typical
00:59:31left and right
00:59:33are very close to the edge.
00:59:35Often the important
00:59:37is not on the picture
00:59:39but maybe next to it.
00:59:41But I did not paint that.
00:59:43That is why my pictures
00:59:45are very close to the edge.
00:59:47Very often.
00:59:49There are some where I focus
00:59:51but most are close to the edge.
00:59:53But that makes it interesting
00:59:55because many things
00:59:57that are so obvious
00:59:59are boring.
01:00:01Yes, of course.
01:00:03Thank you very much.
01:00:05You are welcome.