The New Vodoo. Spiritualism in art, yesterday and today. With Nicole Fritz, Kunsthalle Tübingen; Astrid Mania, HFBK Hamburg; Nanette Snoep, Rautenstrauch Joest Museum, Cologne. Host: Kathrin Luz.
(in German language)
Art Cologne 2023, Talks Lounge. Cologne (Germany), November 18, 2023, 5-6pm.
(in German language)
Art Cologne 2023, Talks Lounge. Cologne (Germany), November 18, 2023, 5-6pm.
Category
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CreativityTranscript
00:00 I'm testing the sound. The sound is there. We're there too. You're there too. We're happy
00:17 that you've brought up our topic "The New Voodoo" a little provocatively,
00:24 about the current situation of spiritualism. That's our topic today.
00:30 I have to tell you right away that Astrid Mania, who is sitting here today, is not Julia Voss,
00:37 as announced. She unfortunately got sick, but it turned out that Astrid was so nice
00:44 and above all so competent to jump in here, so that I don't want to make it noticeable.
00:53 I invited Julia Voss because she is going to curate a big exhibition on Hilmar of Klint
01:02 in the Rhineland next year. She is an expert and has written a big book.
01:08 I don't know if you know the artist Hilmar of Klint. We can play in a picture
01:17 where you can see her art in combination with Kandinsky.
01:24 The exhibition will be held in Düsseldorf in the Kunstsammlung.
01:29 In recent years, she has not only become one of the great rediscovered,
01:35 newly discovered women in public attention, but also because she has brought
01:43 spiritualism into the discussion. There are beautiful stories,
01:50 which Julia and others have described, that she has also, with her friends,
01:56 and I think that's an interesting topic, the possible proximity between spirituality
02:03 and spiritism, which apparently played a certain role in the development of modern art.
02:09 And for that, Hilmar of Klint is now more than ever.
02:15 But we thought, we discussed it as an introduction, let's take a look at a few other cases,
02:21 where it may not always be so well known, but there are definitely such spiritual connections.
02:29 And for this reason, I am very happy that Nicole Fritz from the Kunsthalle Tübingen is here,
02:36 because she wrote her doctoral thesis about Joseph Beuys and the superstition.
02:43 And I will ask her right away, what is the difference or not between superstition and spiritualism?
02:51 Spiritism?
02:53 Not spiritism.
02:55 With Joseph Beuys, first of all, as a cultural scientist, I am interested in the interaction
03:05 between individual memory and cultural memory.
03:09 And the prerequisite for this topic was, I was interested in how the cultural super-sufferer,
03:17 in this case the popular superstition, appears in the work of Joseph Beuys.
03:23 And the superstition is a difficult term, as I said, it is a counter-belief,
03:28 it is a limited belief from Christianity, it is about religious fragments and rituals,
03:35 which were collected in the people, but also about written, handed down religious fragments.
03:42 And I was lucky that there was a thesis, that there is a manual of superstition,
03:49 and I had this as a comparison sheet and could show it like this, like Joseph Beuys in his work.
03:57 And I was very happy to see that he was able to show, how he picks up this old tradition,
04:04 how he brings in magical catalysts in his work, but also transforms them with his own meaning,
04:12 to speak his own spiritual experience anew, but with traditional symbols and motifs.
04:20 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
04:28 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
04:36 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
04:44 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
04:50 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
04:58 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
05:03 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
05:09 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
05:14 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
05:19 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
05:24 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
05:29 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
05:34 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
05:39 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
05:44 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
05:49 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
05:54 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
05:59 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
06:04 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
06:09 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
06:14 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
06:19 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
06:24 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
06:29 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
06:34 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
06:39 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
06:44 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
06:49 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
06:54 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
06:59 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
07:04 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
07:09 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
07:14 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
07:19 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
07:24 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
07:29 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
07:34 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
07:39 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
07:44 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
07:49 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
07:54 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
07:59 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
08:04 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
08:09 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
08:14 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
08:19 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
08:24 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
08:29 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
08:34 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
08:39 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
08:44 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
08:49 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
08:54 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
08:59 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
09:04 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
09:09 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
09:14 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
09:19 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
09:24 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
09:29 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
09:34 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
09:39 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
09:44 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
09:49 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
09:54 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
09:59 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
10:04 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
10:09 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
10:14 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
10:19 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
10:24 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
10:29 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
10:34 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
10:39 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
10:44 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
10:49 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
10:54 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
10:59 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
11:04 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
11:09 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
11:14 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
11:19 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
11:24 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
11:29 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
11:34 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
11:39 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
11:44 And I think that this is a very interesting example of how a superstition can be transformed.
11:49 Thank you for the question.
11:54 First of all, I think that I am speaking from the perspective of an ethnological museum.
12:02 And actually, for such museums, ritual art or ritual objects, sacred objects, are being deactivated.
12:16 Once they enter the museum, the objects are disinfected, they get a museum's inventory number.
12:26 That is exactly the opposite. The museum first deactivates such objects.
12:34 And then we see in certain projects, of course, that it is sometimes about reactivating them.
12:41 But of course, that is the question. In a museum context, there is a certain adaptation, reactivation.
12:51 As a cultural anthropologist, and for me, the title is 'The New Voodoo',
12:58 I have been working a lot with voodoo from West Africa.
13:05 And I can only give one example, where it was indeed a very difficult task.
13:12 That was for a large exhibition that I curated in 2012 for the Quai Branly Museum in Paris.
13:22 It was called 'Mètres du Disordre', 'Masters of Disorder', or 'Chaos'.
13:27 It was later shown in the Bonn Art Gallery, 'Loop der Toorheid', also in 2012.
13:35 And then we worked with a voodoo priest from Togo, who with a voodoo altar…
13:42 I won't go into the details of voodoo, I don't think that's the place here.
13:49 When I talk about voodoo, it's not what you think of voodoo, like Hollywood voodoo, with a lot of blood and so on.
13:59 But that's not the place here. I won't go into too much detail about what voodoo really is.
14:05 Let's say it's a spirituality, a religion, that comes from West Africa,
14:13 and is a religion of slaves, who were later transported to the US, Brazil, or Haiti.
14:23 So it's a religion of survival.
14:27 Here, in 2012, we worked with a voodoo priest, who made an altar in a museum.
14:35 And of course, there's a conflict. What kind of voodoo priest is he,
14:44 to deal with deactivated, spiritual, sacred objects, that are in a museum?
14:53 And these are two different worlds, where you have to coordinate very well.
15:01 I think a museum can never really reactivate something.
15:07 It's a form of reanimation, but it's an attempt.
15:14 And that's what you see in many exhibitions,
15:21 in the House of Cultures of the World, in the HKW, in Berlin,
15:30 who, step by step, take spiritual art or spirituality,
15:37 into secular spaces.
15:46 But that's not an easy thing, because it's also about narratives.
15:53 It's also about the purpose of these performances, or ritual performances.
16:03 When I'm here, creating an altar with a voodoo priest,
16:10 I'm trying to understand what that means for them,
16:16 who, I don't think, have much to do with it.
16:21 And what is a voodoo altar in South Togo?
16:26 That's a complex situation, which is often misunderstood.
16:35 It's not a form of exhibitionism or exotism.
16:41 But it's often a very simple reality,
16:47 for many people living in the global South.
16:51 But for Europe, in our very Eurocentric world view,
16:56 it's something that is considered exotic.
17:01 We'll discuss that in a moment.
17:05 But I'll ask Astrid, because you've also dealt with it.
17:10 Voodoo is one thing, but there are many examples in the Christian,
17:16 Western visual tradition, where spiritual experiences with art,
17:24 when you think of all the Christian art,
17:28 is very much influenced by those moments.
17:34 How would you summarize the current debate,
17:39 or maybe some examples, for our audience?
17:43 The Western art, the sacral art,
17:51 is at least at a point, where I think it can change.
17:56 Where a religious work of art is created,
18:01 but the creators of this work have understood each other as artists.
18:07 I think that's an elementary difference,
18:10 whether you know that you're acting between the worlds,
18:14 or whether you feel like a tool of a higher power,
18:19 or create works of art in traditions,
18:23 where there is no Western concept of art,
18:26 of this functionlessness.
18:29 There were discussions about showing Christian works of art,
18:33 two years ago in the Art Forum,
18:36 Christian works of art in churches.
18:40 I think that even there, we Western viewers,
18:44 the few of us who go to a church,
18:47 where they stand in front of altars and bow their knees,
18:50 we can switch back and forth.
18:53 I think it's more problematic when objects or works of art,
18:57 in the absence of a better word,
18:59 that didn't arise in a Western artistic context,
19:04 come into our museum or exhibition context.
19:08 And that's something that concerns people like me,
19:10 who deal with contemporary art.
19:13 The Biennale of Vienna, I had 2015 works of art
19:18 from northern India.
19:21 There are always these, or Boudicca is a very exciting example,
19:25 in the penultimate document, where it changes,
19:28 where someone creates spiritual works of art,
19:30 which can function as art in their own understanding,
19:33 which can function in a ritual context
19:36 after a decontamination phase from the exhibition context.
19:40 And you have it in the museum,
19:42 you have an altar that can be both.
19:45 And that's a good approach,
19:48 that you try to leave both at certain times,
19:52 where it's supposed to be.
19:54 Because we get the problem,
19:56 that we have to find a suitable way around
19:59 with such works of art.
20:01 But aren't objects sometimes even endangered
20:05 when they are involved in ritual actions?
20:08 And of course, it's always connected to the question,
20:11 what do you actually do with them?
20:14 And who is allowed to have them?
20:17 It depends on which objects we're talking about.
20:24 I'm not going to talk about the return debate here,
20:29 but when we say, how do we endanger objects
20:34 when we return them to their original context?
20:39 How did these objects end up here?
20:42 Very important, sacred objects.
20:47 We didn't ask if we could take these objects to Europe.
20:53 I think that's an ethical question.
20:58 It depends.
20:59 You can't talk about all objects like that.
21:02 But there are many, very important,
21:05 sacred, ritual objects that are in European museums.
21:11 They come from the African continent,
21:14 or South America, or wherever.
21:17 They were brought to Europe in the context of colonial violence
21:21 in the late 19th century, early 20th century.
21:27 And then, of course,
21:30 how can a museum, or a country in Europe,
21:36 or a city, or an institution,
21:40 avoid when such an object returns
21:44 to its original, ritual context?
21:48 But you can't generalize it.
21:52 But that's what's happening right now.
21:56 For many ethnological museums,
22:00 we have this return debate,
22:03 where some objects return to the community
22:10 and then resume their sacred role.
22:15 Even if they can no longer be complete
22:22 as if they had been collected.
22:26 They have lost their innocence, so to speak.
22:29 But if you look at these debates,
22:32 and you mentioned it at the HKW,
22:35 which is very strong, the House of Culture in Berlin,
22:40 is very strong in support of such practices.
22:45 And you ask yourself,
22:47 is there a certain hype in society
22:50 to deal with these issues?
22:53 What's behind it?
22:55 I'm asking Nicole,
22:57 if an artist like Marina Abramovic
23:02 is increasingly dealing with these issues,
23:05 even beyond art,
23:07 and is developing and offering a school for such techniques.
23:11 What does this tell us as a social trend?
23:16 I think there have always been such phases.
23:19 In the 20th century,
23:21 and I'm currently doing another exhibition
23:24 on the influence of Sigmund Freud on art,
23:27 we've noticed that there are always
23:30 waves of therapeutic activity.
23:32 People are introverted,
23:34 and they try to cope with the situation.
23:37 That was the case in the early 20th century,
23:40 and that was the case in the 1970s,
23:42 and that's the case again since the 1990s.
23:45 And we can see that the interest
23:48 is increasing in introverted positions.
23:52 I think that this interest in spiritual tradition
23:56 is also due to the fact
23:58 that we live in an incredibly individualized society
24:01 and that many people are looking for a place to stay.
24:04 And that it's everyone's job
24:06 to find their own religion.
24:09 Because the super-organized religions
24:12 are always dissolving.
24:15 The super-organized order is always dissolving.
24:18 And so everyone has to find their own way
24:21 to transcend themselves.
24:24 And I think that many phases are coming together.
24:29 And of course there is also a longing
24:32 to grow beyond one's own ego.
24:36 What do you say to that?
24:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
24:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
24:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
24:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
24:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
24:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
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25:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
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31:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
31:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
31:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
31:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
31:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
31:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
31:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
31:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
31:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
31:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
31:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
31:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
31:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
32:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
33:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
34:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
35:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
36:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
37:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
38:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
39:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
40:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
41:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
42:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
43:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
44:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
45:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
46:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:27 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:30 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:33 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:36 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:39 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:42 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:45 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:48 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:51 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:54 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
47:57 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
48:00 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
48:03 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
48:06 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
48:09 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
48:12 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
48:15 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
48:18 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
48:21 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.
48:24 I think that there is a lot to be said about that.