Pakistani journalist and author Mujahid Hussain speaks with Col Anil Bhat (retd) on the return of former PM Nawaz Sharif | SAM Conversation
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00:00 Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor.
00:15 Today we will discuss the return of the former Prime Minister of Pakistan, Nawaz Sharif.
00:36 We are very happy to introduce you to Mr. Mujahid Hussain, a well-known writer and author of Pakistan.
00:51 Mr. Hussain, it is a pleasure to meet you.
00:56 Thank you.
00:59 Mr. Hussain, I have a connection with you.
01:06 My publisher sent me his first book, Punjabi Taliban, to review.
01:21 It was widely published and my publisher told Mr. Hussain that the person who has reviewed it is writing a book on Pakistan.
01:37 It is called Terror to Turmoil in Pakistan.
01:46 When Mr. Hussain asked me if I could review it, I sent him a brief.
01:56 The comment Mr. Hussain wrote on it became a great forward for my book.
02:04 Recently, Mr. Hussain has published his book, Turmoil in Pakistan, which we have already discussed.
02:16 Now, let's go back to the future.
02:36 We had to go through a lot of circumstances to get to where we are today.
02:46 The circumstances in Pakistan are very delicate.
03:06 The army is a new force.
03:16 The role of the army is no different than before.
03:26 Mr. Hussain, where should we start?
03:31 I think the role you mentioned is the most important point.
03:44 You said it is very important. I think the role of the army has become the most important in history.
03:54 Especially, the events of 9th May, the demonstrations of Tehreek-e-Nasaf, the arrests, the circumstances.
04:09 The army, which was not as strong as it was politically, has become very strong again.
04:19 Mr. Imran Khan has helped the army to become stronger.
04:25 He has helped the army to make political decisions, to regain control,
04:30 and to decide which party will come forward and which will retreat.
04:35 Who will come forward, who will deal with, and who will be out of politics.
04:40 Thanks to Mr. Imran Khan, the events of 9th May, the stance he has taken against the army through social media,
04:50 and through Pakistani media, the way he has confronted the army directly,
04:58 Mr. Khan's party has broken apart.
05:01 But the army has become stronger than before, and I think the army should be thankful to Imran Khan
05:11 that the army has regained the same power that it had in the past.
05:18 So now, all the decisions, like you mentioned, our ex-Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif has returned to Pakistan.
05:29 So, if you call this a compromise, you can call it a deal.
05:33 He goes out of the deal, and comes back from the deal.
05:37 There has been another deal to bring him back.
05:40 And now, there will be an election, and what will happen after that?
05:44 There will be another deal about how the election will be held, and how it will not be held,
05:48 and who will be in charge.
05:50 I think that all the events that have happened in the past 6 months or a year,
05:57 have brought the army back to the driving seat.
06:01 And if I can mention here,
06:06 that Mujahid Hussain has coined the word "dealistan" in his own program.
06:19 There is a history of so many deals in Pakistan.
06:27 I found this word funny, but it is a fact.
06:43 He coined the word "dealistan".
06:46 Let's go, sir.
06:48 The issue is that, even if we don't go too far back,
06:55 let's start with 1988, when Zia's crash happens,
06:59 and apparently, there are general elections in Pakistan,
07:03 and Benazir Bhutto's daughter's party takes the majority.
07:11 Even then, the army did not want, and General Aslam Beg did not want,
07:16 that the People's Party would get power.
07:19 So, the first deal that was made at that time,
07:22 with the respected Benazir Bhutto, his party, and the army,
07:28 the ISI, was that we will bring you into power,
07:33 and our president will be Ghulam Ishaq Khan,
07:36 who has been the representative of the establishment all his life.
07:39 So, he became the president.
07:41 And the second deal was that when you go to the parliament,
07:45 you will not demolish the power of the parliament to dissolve,
07:50 under Article 58B of the constitution.
07:56 You will not make amendments to it, and you will let it be as it is.
08:00 So, Benazir accepted this, and he became the prime minister.
08:05 And then everyone saw that only two years ago,
08:08 when relations between Benazir and the establishment were damaged,
08:12 within two years, Ghulam Ishaq Khan used the shik of the constitution
08:17 and dissolved the assembly.
08:21 And then a new election took place.
08:23 When the new election took place,
08:25 then the party of Mian Nawaz Sharif got power.
08:30 And during this time, efforts were made to form a party.
08:35 So, you may remember, an alliance was formed, IJI,
08:40 Islamic Republic of Unity,
08:43 which included Jamaat-e-Salami,
08:45 and other pro-establishment parties, religious parties, and Nawaz League.
08:50 So, he again became the prime minister,
08:55 Nawaz Sharif became the prime minister for the first time,
08:58 and he was allowed to run for two years.
09:01 Then Ghulam Ishaq Khan dissolved his government.
09:04 Then another deal was made.
09:06 The People's Party would come in the future,
09:08 and the People's Party would be able to do this and that,
09:10 and not be able to do this and that.
09:12 Then in 1993, Benazir Bhutto became the prime minister.
09:16 And then in 1996, under the same constitution,
09:19 under the same shik, which was 58-2B,
09:22 under that, the government of the People's Party itself was dissolved by President Farooq Laghari.
09:31 And 58-2B continued to run.
09:35 So, to say that there is a deal,
09:39 there have always been deals,
09:41 a deal was made for power, a deal was made to end power,
09:45 a deal was made to form other parties,
09:48 everyone has a deal.
09:49 I don't know if you have a deal, or if there are deals in the world,
09:53 but the deals we have are very naked.
09:56 They are completely naked.
09:57 The deals we have are in front of us, and they are being made.
10:00 And if we jump to the current situation,
10:05 when this same Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif was in power in 2014,
10:11 at that time, he did not like that Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif was making his own decisions,
10:19 and the army was upset with him.
10:23 So, he held a protest, you may remember, in Faizabad,
10:29 about which the Supreme Court has given a decision,
10:32 that these people who distributed money in the protest,
10:35 the people of the Rangers and other security forces,
10:39 they have exceeded their powers,
10:43 they have gone ahead, they should not have done this.
10:46 So, when that protest was held, you may remember,
10:48 then Tahir ul Qadri was brought in,
10:50 then Imran Khan came,
10:51 then the Nawaz Sharif government was not able to run,
10:54 and then when Nawaz Sharif was still in government,
10:57 then a deal was made with Imran Khan,
10:59 that now we will make you the Prime Minister,
11:02 your party will win, we will make your party,
11:05 and then the party was made, everyone saw it.
11:08 The same Jahangir Khan Tareem, who was the man of the establishment,
11:11 and still is,
11:12 people were brought in his planes,
11:15 justice was made,
11:17 a deal was made,
11:18 Mian Sahib's government was over,
11:19 before that, Mian Sahib was released in the Panama case,
11:22 when the government was over,
11:24 the election of 2018 took place,
11:26 then Imran Khan won,
11:29 how did his government form, this was also a deal.
11:35 Thank you very much, Hussain Sahib.
11:38 Now, please bring some attention to this,
11:43 that in India,
11:46 and in Balochistan,
11:51 what can be the impact?
11:54 One, the new statement that Nawaz Sharif has come up with,
12:00 which is worth listening to,
12:02 that there has never been any benefit from the enmity with India,
12:12 and he has said something very wise,
12:19 but am I wrong in thinking that
12:24 it is not possible for this to have any impact?
12:32 Because the government of Pakistan,
12:36 the Pakistan army,
12:38 their aim is very clear,
12:44 their livelihood,
12:48 their livelihood is India,
12:53 regarding this,
12:56 You are absolutely right,
12:59 Nawaz Sharif has said this,
13:02 that there can be no progress by fighting with the neighbours.
13:06 So, obviously, the biggest neighbour is India,
13:10 and apart from that, Afghanistan is also a neighbour,
13:13 the relationship with both is not normal.
13:17 And the most important thing is,
13:19 if after 40 years of political experience,
13:23 Nawaz Sharif has come to the conclusion
13:25 that we cannot progress by fighting with the neighbours,
13:28 then I think this is a very historic movement.
13:32 This is a very good thing,
13:34 and if the army has also understood this,
13:38 then I think this is a better thing.
13:42 And one thing,
13:44 Bhatt Sahib should remember,
13:48 that Mian Sahib has made a complete deal with the army.
13:56 And in this deal,
13:58 it is not possible for Mian Sahib to give a ground-breaking statement
14:03 and the army to not be pleased with it.
14:06 Now, they will not do this.
14:08 Because they have seen in 3-5 governments,
14:12 that as soon as they make a statement,
14:15 the army and their allies are against them.
14:18 Kargil is in front of you.
14:20 After Kargil, Wajib Bhai's arrival in Lahore is in front of you.
14:25 After that, Mian Nawaz Sharif's family weddings,
14:29 Prime Minister Modi and your State Security Advisor,
14:35 their arrival was also a big allegation against Nawaz Sharif.
14:39 And all this propaganda that was done
14:42 to bring Imran Khan against Nawaz Sharif,
14:45 it was all about Nawaz Sharif
14:48 and the Indian government, especially the BJP government,
14:51 and Modi,
14:52 and how they are out of the way in building their relations.
14:57 And there are such stories in Pakistan,
15:00 that the people who work at Nawaz Sharif's sugar mill,
15:04 they have a connection with Rao.
15:06 Many people from there come and work there.
15:08 These stories are made with social media.
15:12 Like you have a lot of storytellers on your social media,
15:18 some are majors, some are not.
15:21 So, those stories come from there.
15:23 We have a lot of storytellers in our country as well.
15:26 So, these kinds of stories.
15:27 Now, this story -
15:29 I will tell you about three or four days ago,
15:31 that the day Nawaz Sharif came to Pakistan,
15:34 the next day,
15:35 there was a huge storm on social media
15:37 that Nawaz Sharif was caught on a call at 11pm,
15:40 he was talking to Modi,
15:42 and he said, "Attack him!"
15:46 And then, it so happened that from tomorrow,
15:49 the Jammu sector,
15:51 the working boundary of India-Pakistan,
15:54 from tomorrow, there is unrest there,
15:56 and there is some firing going on in Charwa, Harpal, and other sectors.
16:01 So, the people who were saying this story, "Attack him!",
16:03 they have also started saying that as soon as Nawaz Sharif came back,
16:07 there has been an escalation with India.
16:11 But, Bhatt Saheb, there is a coincidence in this,
16:14 you will be surprised.
16:17 I am also from the same area as the working boundary.
16:22 The previous government of Nawaz Sharif,
16:24 from 2014 to 2018, when he was Prime Minister,
16:28 there has been unrest on the working boundary for the past 4 years.
16:34 BSF and Rangers have been standing in front of each other and there has been firing.
16:38 Yes, there has been a lot of heat.
16:41 A lot of people have been killed on both sides.
16:44 Yes, yes.
16:46 Okay, so as soon as the elections were held,
16:48 Imran Khan's government came,
16:50 so this unrest ended.
16:52 This is a surprising thing.
16:55 So, for as long as Imran Khan has been in power,
16:58 even till now,
16:59 Imran Khan's government ended,
17:01 and after that,
17:02 the PDM government has been in power for a year and a half.
17:05 The area was totally peaceful.
17:09 Now, 3-4 days have passed and unrest has started again.
17:12 You are a soldier,
17:14 you can explain this in a better way.
17:16 But, this is in a way about Mian Nawaz Sharif,
17:20 the concept building that we have,
17:22 that when Mian Nawaz Sharif's government is in a bit of a mess in Pakistan,
17:27 the situation is a bit bad,
17:29 they are politically weak,
17:31 so they request India to fire a few bullets.
17:34 I don't know if this is possible or not,
17:38 but this is definitely a perception we have.
17:40 There is no need for them to say this,
17:46 when they themselves fire bullets,
17:48 we have to fire back.
17:52 Generally, our attitude is not to fire the first bullet.
18:02 Till now, we often say,
18:05 sometimes,
18:06 analysts,
18:07 the analysts with a background in the military,
18:11 we often say to fire the first bullet.
18:14 But, no, we always fire the first bullet,
18:21 and then we fire the bullets in response.
18:25 This is a government version.
18:27 But, Bhatt Saheb, the problem is that if we come to a point,
18:30 then the fact that Nawaz Sharif cannot develop by fighting with the neighbours,
18:36 this is a very good thing.
18:39 This is a very good thing.
18:41 He has made a very strong statement.
18:44 I am absolutely certain that the situation in which Nawaz Sharif has returned,
18:50 the way his political party is weak in Pakistan,
18:54 and the way his opponent is in jail,
18:56 and is politically stronger than him,
18:58 and Imran Khan can give him a tough time in the elections,
19:03 then in this situation,
19:05 Mian Nawaz Sharif would never say anything that goes against the interests of the army.
19:13 So, we should accept this with a positive gesture,
19:18 or we should give a margin for doubt.
19:22 If Mian Saheb has said this,
19:24 then it is possible that the wisdom of the Pakistan army has also changed.
19:30 Now, we will build good relations with India.
19:35 And if this happens,
19:38 and it should happen that we have good relations with India,
19:42 we are neighbours,
19:44 and there is less conflict between us,
19:47 then there can be a better solution for the disputes.
19:51 Where there is conflict these days,
19:54 or where there are brutal disputes,
19:56 the situation is not better for the people.
20:01 It is very bad.
20:05 But what you have said,
20:11 that India and Pakistan should have good relations,
20:17 this is a very sad thing.
20:21 When the British made this plan to make Pakistan,
20:30 the plan was very clear,
20:34 that all these undivided,
20:39 India should not be left undivided.
20:43 If it is left undivided, then it will be a very strong country.
20:50 And they planned it very well.
20:57 But the problem is,
21:01 and of course, Mr. Bhatt has many opinions,
21:05 but we should accept that in 1947,
21:10 one thing was divided,
21:13 two separate countries were formed,
21:16 and two years later, three countries were formed.
21:21 Now when three countries have been formed,
21:24 and three countries have been formed,
21:26 Bangladesh has been separated for more than 50 years,
21:29 so in this situation, we should accept that we are neighbours,
21:34 and many of our things are similar.
21:37 We have a very large population,
21:41 which is living under poverty.
21:44 So we should accept this.
21:48 Like I told you before,
21:51 the way Imran Khan,
21:56 who was a selection of the army,
21:59 sorry,
22:01 the way Imran Khan demoralized the army,
22:05 or fought with the army,
22:08 and the way things are,
22:11 I think the Pakistani army should make core changes in their concepts.
22:20 They should be able to do it.
22:23 They know.
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