For the first time in years, the Boston Celtics and Los Angeles Lakers both have a solid shot at winning a banner. With the tally tied up at 17 each, the stakes in this age-old rivalry are not small. Just in time to grease the wheels of that ancient enmity is a new season of HBO's "Winning Time: Rise of the Lakers Dynasty" chronicling the historic feud between the bi-coastal foes in the Larry Bird-Magic Johnson era. And while it will be many months before we know if there's a chance the two rivals will meet in the NBA Finals, the series should help keep us busy.
Older fans revel in the days of Bird, Robert Parish, and Kevin McHale vs, Magic, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Cooper, and Norm Nixon. Younger Boston fans can learn what all the hubbub was about. To that end, the hosts of the CLNS Media "Celtics Lab" podcast reached out to the man who wrote the book on that era in the literal sense, Jeff Pearlman, the tome in question being "Showtime: Magic, Kareem, Riley, and the Los Angeles Lakers Dynasty of the 1980s".
Pearlman joined us to talk all things Celtics-Lakers, how the book and then series came to be, and what he thinks of the series having had an eagle-eye view of its creation, even appearing in cameos with his family. Make sure you catch this Lab -- and Winning Time's second season while you're at it.
This episode of the Celtics Lab Podcast is brought to you by Fanduel Sportsbook, the exclusive wagering partner of the CLNS Media Network. NEW customers can bet $5 and get $200 in BONUS BETS – GUARANTEED. Plus, all customers who bet $5 will get $100 OFF NFL SUNDAY TICKET from YouTube and YouTube TV. Now is the best time to join FanDuel! The app is easy to use and you can be on everything from spreads to player props and more! So, visit FanDuel.com/BOSTON and kick off the NFL season with an offer you won’t wanna miss.
21+ and present in MA. First online real money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable bonus bets that expire 7 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at fanduel.com/sportsbook. Hope is here. GamblingHelpLineMa.org or call (800)-327-5050 for 24/7 support. Play it smart from the start! GameSenseMA.com or call 1-800-GAM-1234. NFL Sunday Ticket Offer ends 9/18/23. No refunds. Terms and embargoes apply. $100 off NFL Sunday Ticket, not YouTube TV. YouTube TV base plan required to watch YouTube TV. Redemption requires a Google account and current form of payment. Commercial Use Excluded. Subscription renews; cancel anytime.
Older fans revel in the days of Bird, Robert Parish, and Kevin McHale vs, Magic, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Cooper, and Norm Nixon. Younger Boston fans can learn what all the hubbub was about. To that end, the hosts of the CLNS Media "Celtics Lab" podcast reached out to the man who wrote the book on that era in the literal sense, Jeff Pearlman, the tome in question being "Showtime: Magic, Kareem, Riley, and the Los Angeles Lakers Dynasty of the 1980s".
Pearlman joined us to talk all things Celtics-Lakers, how the book and then series came to be, and what he thinks of the series having had an eagle-eye view of its creation, even appearing in cameos with his family. Make sure you catch this Lab -- and Winning Time's second season while you're at it.
This episode of the Celtics Lab Podcast is brought to you by Fanduel Sportsbook, the exclusive wagering partner of the CLNS Media Network. NEW customers can bet $5 and get $200 in BONUS BETS – GUARANTEED. Plus, all customers who bet $5 will get $100 OFF NFL SUNDAY TICKET from YouTube and YouTube TV. Now is the best time to join FanDuel! The app is easy to use and you can be on everything from spreads to player props and more! So, visit FanDuel.com/BOSTON and kick off the NFL season with an offer you won’t wanna miss.
21+ and present in MA. First online real money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable bonus bets that expire 7 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at fanduel.com/sportsbook. Hope is here. GamblingHelpLineMa.org or call (800)-327-5050 for 24/7 support. Play it smart from the start! GameSenseMA.com or call 1-800-GAM-1234. NFL Sunday Ticket Offer ends 9/18/23. No refunds. Terms and embargoes apply. $100 off NFL Sunday Ticket, not YouTube TV. YouTube TV base plan required to watch YouTube TV. Redemption requires a Google account and current form of payment. Commercial Use Excluded. Subscription renews; cancel anytime.
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SportsTranscript
00:00 Celtics Lab is brought to you by FanDuel,
00:03 the exclusive wagering partner of the CLNS Media Network.
00:07 - All righty, welcome to the Celtics Lab podcast
00:09 brought to you by FanDuel,
00:10 the exclusive wagering partner of the CLNS Media Network.
00:12 I am Cameron Teptebai.
00:14 I'm joined by Alex Goldberg,
00:15 who's checking in from Brooklyn,
00:16 his new apartment in Brooklyn,
00:17 and I'm joined by Dr. Justin Quinn.
00:19 This is a very special edition of the Celtics Lab podcast
00:23 because we have a very special guest.
00:26 This is a person that sports fans,
00:28 like really across the spectrum might know
00:30 because Jeff Pearlman, who is our guest,
00:32 has written about Bo Jackson.
00:34 He's written about the Lakers, the Mets,
00:36 and so much in between.
00:37 So Jeff, I'm gonna welcome you in
00:39 and then really dial into what we're talking about.
00:41 Jeff Pearlman, how are you?
00:42 - I'm doing okay, actually.
00:44 I'm, you know, book research hell for the next book,
00:47 but that's okay.
00:49 So this is a little break.
00:50 - Can you tell us what you're researching or too soon?
00:54 - I'm doing the biography of Tupac Shakur.
00:57 So I'm doing my first non-
00:58 - Whoa, oh man.
01:00 - First non-sports book.
01:01 So, yeah.
01:02 - Wow.
01:03 - Yeah.
01:04 - Okay.
01:05 See if there's a connection to the Celtics,
01:06 so we can have you back on and talk about that book.
01:09 - He definitely heard of the Celtics.
01:11 - Yeah.
01:12 (laughing)
01:14 All right, that's good enough for us.
01:15 Until then, we're here to talk about your book,
01:19 which eventually became an HBO show.
01:20 The book is "Showtime, Magic, Cream, Riley,
01:23 and the Los Angeles Lakers Dynasty Boo,"
01:25 parenthetically, which has now become HBO's winning time,
01:28 "Rise of the Lakers Dynasty."
01:30 And our connection there really is,
01:31 you can't talk about the Lakers in the '80s
01:33 without talking about the Celtics in the '80s.
01:35 Good enough for us.
01:36 Jeff, I'll tell you, the show is tremendous.
01:39 The source material is tremendous.
01:41 So off the jump, I'd just like to congratulate you.
01:43 I hope you're enjoying the ride,
01:44 'cause it's a lot of fun as a consumer.
01:47 - Yeah, I mean, you should always have,
01:49 if anyone ever comes to you guys and says,
01:50 "We want to turn," whatever,
01:52 "into an HBO show or a Netflix show or whatever show,"
01:55 you definitely always say yes,
01:57 because there's just very few negatives
02:00 that come out of it, you know?
02:01 A couple, very few.
02:02 So yeah, it's been cool.
02:04 - All right, good.
02:06 That's a hot tip for our listeners.
02:07 Here's how we're gonna do this.
02:09 People who listen to this podcast know
02:10 that when we have big Jesus come around,
02:12 we break the podcast into more traditional
02:15 one-on-one interviews.
02:16 So Alex is gonna hop in.
02:17 He's gonna talk to Jeff about his background,
02:19 about sports writing, and the origins of this book.
02:22 Then Justin, you're gonna kind of bridge the gap
02:24 between how the book becomes a show,
02:26 and Jeff, and the tail end of the program.
02:28 You and I will talk about the show itself.
02:30 How's that?
02:31 All right, Alex, from Brooklyn.
02:34 I mean, we're here to talk about Jeff,
02:35 but give people your 30-second Brooklyn update,
02:37 'cause that's exciting too, I suppose.
02:39 - Sure, hello, listeners.
02:41 Nice to see you again.
02:42 I have been kind of on and off the lap lately,
02:44 and that's in large part because I've been moving
02:46 my entire life to Brooklyn, New York,
02:48 to more seriously pursue music and other fun things like that.
02:52 If you like the music at the top of the program,
02:54 that's me on the bass band is doing stuff.
02:56 Check it out.
02:57 Divine Sweater is the name.
02:59 Anyway, I'm here in Brooklyn now,
03:01 but I am still a hardcore Celtics fan,
03:03 which means that the Los Angeles Lakers
03:06 being a topic on this podcast is confusing
03:09 and strange to me, but nonetheless, here we are.
03:12 I guess we have to talk about it.
03:14 So, Jeff, we're gonna just kind of jump right into it.
03:18 So let's start with how the Lakers even became
03:22 a topic of interest to you in the first place.
03:24 Are you a fan?
03:26 Was it the '80s Lakers specifically,
03:28 or is it the Lakers more generally?
03:29 Like, what do we think about this?
03:31 - I was not a fan.
03:32 I grew up in New York.
03:34 I grew up a weirdly diehard New Jersey Nets fan in the '80s,
03:38 and the Nets really sucked, and it was like,
03:40 this is pre like Van Horn and Jason Kidd.
03:43 This is Buck Williams and Otis Byrd's song
03:46 and Darwin Cook, really bad.
03:48 But I remember being a kid, and every now and then,
03:53 Lakers Celtics would play in LA,
03:56 and they'd be like live from, you know, Inglewood,
04:01 and see, first they'd show the shot of the beach.
04:04 Maybe they'd have like a couple of people
04:05 playing beach volleyball in bikinis or whatever,
04:07 or a couple of lifeguards, whatever.
04:09 Then you'd go inside the forum,
04:12 and they'd have the Laker girls,
04:13 and then they'd have like, you'd see like Jack Nicholson
04:16 and Diane Cannon and Blair Underwood,
04:18 and then you'd see Magic, and you'd see Byrd.
04:20 And the whole thing was just so freaking magical to me.
04:22 Like really was, that I always like fancied LA
04:26 and fancied that time period,
04:27 and wanted to touch that thing that was so elusive.
04:32 So I just always thought about that,
04:34 and no one had written like a definitive,
04:35 definitive book of that era and those teams, that team.
04:39 So I just went for it, and that's how it was.
04:40 It was almost like envying what I never had as a kid.
04:44 - Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day,
04:45 as much as I admit this begrudgingly,
04:47 the Lakers are one of two iconic franchises in the NBA,
04:51 whose presence is arguably bigger than the sport itself,
04:55 at least for some people.
04:56 So pretty reasonable to pursue that as a topic,
05:00 as a sports journalist.
05:01 Speaking of sports journalism,
05:03 you've gotten a couple of different books.
05:05 Obviously you're moving into
05:08 a non-sports journalism project now,
05:10 but you've kind of made your bones as a sports journalist.
05:15 And I guess I'm wondering, first off,
05:17 how did you get into sports journalism?
05:19 And then what kind of sparks interest in you
05:23 in pursuing what is a really complex and involved project?
05:28 Like, how do you go from writing columns
05:31 and writing kind of standard sports journalism
05:35 to doing such a really kind of thoughtful
05:37 and deep research piece like this?
05:40 - I mean, I started, so I went to high school
05:45 in a tiny town in Nailpack, New York,
05:48 and I wrote for the high school newspaper.
05:51 And I remember it was either my junior or senior,
05:53 I think it was my senior year,
05:55 I wrote a column for the high school newspaper
05:57 called "Cheerleading, Sport or Activity?"
06:01 And at the time I was just this kid
06:02 who like kind of a nerdy kid,
06:05 newspaper, ran track, that kind of stuff.
06:07 And I remember writing a column,
06:08 ripping, saying that basically cheerleading
06:10 was just an activity, not a sport.
06:13 And the day after I wrote it or the day it came out,
06:15 all the cheerleaders surrounding me
06:17 and yelling at me in the cafeteria
06:19 and kind of being like, "Wow, that was cool.
06:23 They actually know who I am.
06:23 They noticed me, you know, blah, blah, blah."
06:25 That's a very pathetic reason to get into it all,
06:27 but that kind of did it for me.
06:29 And I went to the University of Delaware,
06:31 really got into student newspaper,
06:32 became sports editor and editor and all that stuff.
06:35 And I love sports.
06:38 And out of college, my first job at the National Tennessean
06:40 as a newspaper guy,
06:42 actually started as a food and fashion writer
06:44 and was really bad at it.
06:45 Then became a music writer, was really bad at it.
06:48 And finally, they put me on high school wrestling
06:50 and I covered high school wrestling
06:51 for the National Tennessean.
06:52 I don't want to brag.
06:53 And loved it, loved it.
06:56 Just loved everything about it.
06:57 Loved the competition and loved covering it and everything.
06:59 And my dream as a kid was to write for Sports Illustrated.
07:02 Like the dream, books was never a dream.
07:04 TV show certainly was never a dream.
07:06 Sports Illustrated was the dream.
07:08 If you were a kid growing up in the '80s,
07:09 SI was it, it was the Bible if you were a sports fan.
07:12 And I applied and applied and applied.
07:16 And what happened, I had this moment.
07:18 When I was in college,
07:18 I had applied early for the NBA draft
07:20 just to see what would happen.
07:21 I didn't play college basketball,
07:22 but I applied early as a junior for the NBA draft.
07:25 And I got a letter from the league.
07:27 I remember coming back to my dorm
07:28 and my roommate being like,
07:29 "Hey, Pearl, there's a letter from the NBA."
07:32 And I look at it and,
07:34 "Dear Mr. Pearlman, as of this date,
07:35 "you have surrendered your eligibility, blah, blah, blah."
07:38 And I was like, "Whoa, that's crazy."
07:40 Then a few weeks later,
07:40 the head of security for the NBA called me
07:42 and was basically like, "Who are you?"
07:43 And I'm like, "Well, I'm a forward at Delaware."
07:46 So when I was at the Tennessee Inn,
07:49 I kept applying to Sports Illustrated
07:50 'cause my dream was SI.
07:52 And they liked my writing enough
07:53 that they said, "Why don't you pitch an idea?"
07:55 So I pitched a couple of ideas,
07:56 and then I pitched, well, when I was in college,
07:58 I applied for the NBA draft.
08:00 And they said, "Write that."
08:02 I wrote it, and a few months later,
08:03 I got hired to write for Sports Illustrated.
08:05 And I was a baseball writer at SI
08:07 for a good amount of time.
08:08 And a friend of mine named John Wertheim
08:10 wrote a book about women's tennis,
08:11 mainly about Venus and Serena.
08:13 And I was like, "I could write a book."
08:15 So I got a book deal about the '86 Mets.
08:18 That was my first book.
08:19 It was called "The Bad Guys Won."
08:20 I didn't know what to expect.
08:21 I didn't know what I was doing.
08:22 The book made the New York Times list.
08:24 I really love digging into a subject.
08:25 I really love the intricacies of reporting,
08:27 reporting, reporting, tracking down people,
08:29 finding little nuggets and stuff
08:31 maybe other people didn't know.
08:33 And here I am with 10 books and a TV show.
08:36 It's kind of weird.
08:37 - Not bad, not bad.
08:39 Former Nashville resident myself,
08:41 I read the Tennessee in sports column back in the day.
08:43 Probably not when you were there, but-
08:45 - You just made me feel old.
08:46 I know what that secret message was.
08:48 Probably when you were there, meaning you're older than me.
08:50 I respect that.
08:51 - That is true.
08:52 But yeah, fun newspaper.
08:56 So you mentioned baseball.
08:57 First off, got to ask, New York Yankees, Mets,
09:00 do you have a side in that rivalry?
09:02 - Well, I grew up a Mets fan.
09:05 But then when you cover baseball long enough,
09:08 when you cover anything long enough,
09:09 you sort of lose the boom for it.
09:11 I guess I'm kind of a Mets fan,
09:14 but I don't really give a shit if they win or lose.
09:16 I don't care.
09:17 The funny thing is when you're a baseball writer,
09:18 I said this to someone the other day,
09:20 in my whatever, five years of covering baseball,
09:23 I probably knew 99.5% of all MLB rosters.
09:28 I could tell you the Dodgers, third string catchers,
09:30 I could do all that stuff.
09:31 Now I probably know-
09:32 - That is legitimately really impressive.
09:34 - That's what you did back then.
09:35 That's what it was to be a national baseball writer,
09:37 is you covered all these teams and you had to swoop in
09:38 and you had to, you know?
09:40 But now I probably know 4%.
09:42 Like I just don't, I don't write that much.
09:44 We saw a ton of (indistinct)
09:46 - I recently went to a Mets game
09:48 and there's not a lot of juice
09:50 in that rivalry at the moment.
09:51 Yeah, so obviously, you wrote a book
09:56 about the Los Angeles Lakers.
09:57 You grew up a New Jersey Mets fan.
10:00 This is the Celtics Lab podcast though.
10:02 So we do have to talk about the Celtics.
10:03 I'm curious, what did you kind of think
10:06 of the Boston Celtics in the '80s and onward?
10:09 What was your impression as a Mets fan?
10:12 Let's start with that.
10:13 - Hated them.
10:14 - Yeah, okay.
10:15 - Hated everything about them.
10:16 Hated them.
10:17 They were, them and Detroit were just the asshole teams
10:20 that you didn't like, you know?
10:21 Like you only played the Lakers twice a year,
10:23 so it wasn't like you were doing,
10:24 think about the Lakers much.
10:26 But the Celtics were in the same,
10:27 they were both Atlantic Division teams
10:28 and the freaking, they were so much better than Mets.
10:31 Like so much better than Mets.
10:33 In fact, I remember every now and then
10:35 a former Net would play on the Celtics
10:37 and that would actually just burn you.
10:39 Like I remember, I think Michael Ray Richardson
10:41 might add a cup of coffee to the Net with the Celtics
10:43 and you're like, well, that sucks.
10:45 And I'll probably be good with the Celtics.
10:46 It was just, I hated Bird, I hated Parrish,
10:49 I hated McHale, I hated Danny Ains,
10:51 I hated Jerry Seasting, I hated Dennis Johnson,
10:55 hated Casey Jones, hated all of them.
10:57 And when they started sucking,
10:58 I was probably a pretty happy guy
11:00 'cause I just hated them.
11:01 No offense.
11:02 - You sucked for a little while, so you get your two cents.
11:06 - Well, now they're good again, you know?
11:08 - I am curious, just while we're on the subject,
11:10 what do we think of the Nets-Celtics trade
11:13 that resulted in the restoration of Boston as a title team?
11:18 - A monumentally awful trade for the Nets.
11:21 I mean, that might be,
11:22 I don't think I could think of a worse actual trade
11:26 in NBA history if you think about
11:27 what that did to both franchises.
11:29 And also, it wasn't like, it was just weird.
11:34 You were basically saying, all right,
11:35 we have Brooke Lopez and we have,
11:38 Darren Williams is our point guard.
11:40 So we're gonna fortify that with aging veterans.
11:44 That's not like saying we have LeBron and Bosh,
11:46 let's add three more guys.
11:48 It's like saying we have two good NBA players,
11:51 let's add a bunch of aging guys to that.
11:52 It didn't make any sense.
11:54 And then it was the first time coach Jason K,
11:56 the whole thing was just such a shit show.
11:57 That did not work out.
11:59 - No.
12:00 So while we're still on the current and then we'll move on,
12:04 what are your thoughts on the state
12:05 of the Celtics-Lakers rivalry now?
12:08 'Cause it's a huge topic in the book and in the show.
12:10 And I guess I'm curious,
12:11 with both teams at 17 banners a piece,
12:15 what are your thoughts on kind of,
12:16 and frankly, with realistic chances
12:19 to potentially hang another one in the near future,
12:22 what are your thoughts on the state of Lakers-Celtics?
12:24 - Well, I think what's cool about it is
12:26 if you think about it,
12:27 you don't really think Lakers-Celtics during the season.
12:30 Like it's not a in-season rivalry.
12:32 Like people don't really talk about Lakers-Celtics
12:33 that much midway through a season,
12:35 even if the Lakers are good,
12:37 'cause they just don't play very often.
12:38 They play twice a year.
12:39 But I think it's always cool when it's a possibility.
12:42 And when both teams make the playoffs,
12:44 like this year I never considered the Lakers
12:46 a legit title contender.
12:47 I just didn't.
12:48 Even when they were running in the playoffs, I never did.
12:50 But I thought the Celtics were.
12:52 And it is interesting watching the brackets
12:53 when they get closer and closer and closer.
12:56 And I don't think you can think of any other teams
12:57 really like that.
12:58 We were like, maybe Cleveland and Golden State a little bit
13:01 because not that long ago, but it's really intriguing.
13:04 And I know it's not gonna end well,
13:09 but I really liked the Port Cingus trade when it was made.
13:11 I just like, you gotta shake this thing up.
13:13 You just have to.
13:14 I know it sucks getting rid of a guy like Marcus Scott,
13:17 Marcus Smart because of all the,
13:19 he's a leader and he's the guts of the team.
13:21 But like, if you look at sports history,
13:23 those guys are relatively replaceable.
13:26 And like, I like the trade,
13:28 but then I also think Port Cingus
13:30 is probably gonna end up playing 43 games
13:32 and hurting his foot in a blender or something.
13:34 And the Lakers are legit.
13:35 I think the Lakers are actually better positioned right now,
13:38 to be honest, to make up those run than the Celtics.
13:41 - That's very interesting.
13:42 I mean, it seems like they've kind of been dancing
13:44 around each other for the past couple of years.
13:46 And I think everybody would love to see Lakers, Celtics
13:49 in the finals again, but.
13:51 - It's just fun.
13:52 And the NBA would love it
13:53 'cause it's a guaranteed ratings bonanza.
13:54 I think people love it.
13:55 - Yeah, absolutely.
13:58 So let's get into it then.
13:59 Lakers, Celtics is a crucial topic in Showtime.
14:03 Tell us, walk us through kind of your process
14:06 of writing that.
14:06 Like how did that idea come up
14:08 and then what was it like actually like doing the legwork
14:11 trying to get this story together?
14:13 - I mean, it's kind of the same.
14:16 I could be writing a Tupac book or a Lakers book
14:19 or like a Brett Favre book.
14:20 And it's always the same, which is the first thing you do
14:23 is order every media guy from eBay,
14:25 make a file for every single person
14:28 in all those media guys.
14:29 Not just, sorry, not just the stars,
14:32 not even just the players, not even just the coaches,
14:38 the administrators, the massage therapists,
14:43 the secretaries, everyone.
14:45 And you build up this enormous library of people.
14:47 And a lot of times people make, I think,
14:49 make the mistake of thinking,
14:51 "Oh, if you don't get Magic or you don't get Korean."
14:53 I didn't get Magic or Korean for the book.
14:55 They think, "Oh, wow, that's really hard."
14:57 It's actually the opposite.
14:59 Magic and Korean are two guys who've been asked
15:00 about the Lakers dynasty for a million times.
15:03 But Wes Matthews hasn't and Mike Smrek hasn't.
15:07 And whoever you wanna pick,
15:09 even AC Green guys like that haven't.
15:11 So for me, it's all about finding the people who are there
15:13 but who haven't been recognized 27,000 times.
15:16 And that was my thing, like digging and digging
15:20 and digging and digging.
15:20 Same with, and then you get to the other teams.
15:23 So when they played the Celtics in the finals those times,
15:25 you start, you dig through a Celtics media guide
15:28 and you try to find as many guys from the Celtics
15:30 as possible.
15:31 You wanna interview guys who are there
15:31 and people who are part of the team
15:33 and who are witness to the hellishness of it all.
15:35 At the same time, you build this library.
15:37 This is literally my Tupac library right here behind you.
15:42 So for Lakers, I had this enormous library
15:44 and it wouldn't just be Laker books.
15:45 It'd be Larry Bird's autobiography
15:47 and Jack McCallum writing about the Celtics
15:49 and Bob Ryan and Dan Shaughnessy and all those things.
15:52 And you end up building these 8,000 libraries
15:55 and piecing it all together.
15:56 And then the other thing you do is you like print out,
15:59 like literally to the right of me,
16:01 these are some of my Tupac articles,
16:02 but it's like, I don't know if you can see,
16:04 like a pile of stuff.
16:05 So you build this clip collection and you dig through it
16:09 and it's basically a combination of original research
16:11 plus old stuff, finding little nuggets, making it relevant.
16:15 And this is why I have no life.
16:17 And I like am always losing my mind
16:20 because you become beyond obsessed
16:23 with what you're working on to the point
16:24 where you're just a mindless drone
16:26 only thinking about Lakers Celtics.
16:29 - And so you have like a big stack of documents.
16:33 It seems like you've been reaching out
16:34 to a lot of people for this book
16:35 and were doing so for your other books.
16:37 I'm curious, what is your balance
16:39 as far as archival sources versus interview in this process?
16:44 'Cause it seems like you use both.
16:46 - I do.
16:46 I'm all about both.
16:48 I don't even know if there's a balance.
16:49 Like I don't remember how many interviews
16:52 for the Laker book.
16:52 My last book was about Bo Jackson
16:55 and I interviewed 720 people, which is a record for me.
16:58 And that's like, it's like, you're not just calling.
17:02 So let's say you're writing about Bo Jackson
17:04 and the obvious thing is you call all his teammates.
17:06 You wanna find all his teammates.
17:08 But you also be using archival materials
17:10 and maybe you're reading an article about him
17:12 and it might be about him buying his first house.
17:14 And it'll say like, "Kansas City real estate agent,
17:16 "Becky Fernandez sold him his house."
17:19 Then you wanna find Becky Fernandez
17:20 and you call Becky Fernandez.
17:22 Becky Fernandez might tell you,
17:23 "Oh, you know what's so crazy?
17:25 "When I was selling him his house,
17:26 "I recommended his gardener.
17:27 "His gardener is Barry Schmidt.
17:29 "You should call Barry Schmidt."
17:30 Then you call Barry Schmidt.
17:32 And like, so starting with the archival material
17:34 leads you this way and this way and this way
17:36 and this way and this way.
17:37 And all of a sudden you just have this buffet
17:38 of overwhelming material to work with.
17:41 - That's cool.
17:44 All right, so obviously-
17:44 - I would say it's not cool.
17:46 I would say it's the nerdiest thing ever,
17:47 but I appreciate your kind words.
17:49 - Fair enough.
17:49 I'm trying my best here, man.
17:53 So obviously, "Showtime" is a great book,
17:57 but I think it's fair to say that most people now know it
18:01 in its TV incarnation.
18:03 And so how did that kind of process
18:06 to make it a series get started?
18:08 It says on Wikipedia that Jim Hecht
18:11 was pretty heavily involved before Adam McKay
18:14 or Max Bornstein kind of hopped in.
18:17 So tell us the backstory of how you got to meeting
18:20 all of these people and how this kind of started
18:22 to gestate from a book into a show.
18:25 - So Jim Hecht was, at the time,
18:27 he was a screenwriter who reached out to me.
18:30 And when I Googled him, his big movie,
18:33 his big screenplay was "Ice Age 2."
18:35 And I was like, "Ice Age 2."
18:37 But he was really persistent,
18:39 and also he was very complimentary,
18:40 and he clearly loved the book, loved the Lakers.
18:43 So 2014 Easter, Jim Hecht comes to my house
18:48 to eat with my family.
18:50 He's like, "I can come by."
18:51 And we're both Jewish, so it wasn't like,
18:52 we had family dinner, so that was it.
18:55 I said, "All right, come to my family dinner."
18:57 And Jim shows up.
18:58 I knew almost nothing about him.
19:00 And he came to my house.
19:01 We still joke about this, with three things.
19:02 He came with a block of Saran Wrap Baker's chocolate.
19:06 He came with a big-ass tomato.
19:09 And he came with a bottle of imitation wine drink.
19:12 And my wife is like, "Who the fuck is this guy?"
19:14 And I'm like, "I don't know.
19:15 "He's interesting in the book."
19:17 And he was just a really nice guy.
19:21 And he just had this vision for it as a screenplay.
19:24 And I wasn't getting any bites on it at the time,
19:26 and I was kind of naive, so I didn't even ask for money.
19:28 I was like, "All right, whatever, take a year."
19:31 And nothing ever happened.
19:32 Nothing ever happened.
19:33 Every now and then he'd call me.
19:34 Him and his partner, Jason Schumann,
19:36 his business partner, used to always say,
19:37 "We wanna make you the male Candace Bushnell."
19:41 Bushnell, is that her name?
19:42 "From Sex and the City."
19:43 And I was like, "I don't even know what that means.
19:45 "I don't even know who that is, but okay."
19:47 And I just never bought it.
19:48 I was cynical.
19:50 And then years later, he's like,
19:53 "Adam McKay wants to meet with us."
19:57 And honest to God, my reaction was,
19:59 "I don't know who the fuck that is.
20:00 "I don't know who that is."
20:01 So I Google Adam McKay,
20:04 probably while I'm waiting in his driveway for gym,
20:07 and I see who he is, and that's cool.
20:08 And we go meet with him, and he's very nice.
20:10 And he, I love the book, blah, blah, blah.
20:12 I think he'd be great.
20:13 And I'm like, "Okay, but this isn't gonna happen."
20:16 'Cause I'm just like, honestly,
20:18 I'm a Northeastern Jewish guy,
20:20 and we were raised to be pessimistic.
20:22 Like it is in our DNA that we are required.
20:25 Right, worst case scenario.
20:26 It's always a worst case scenario.
20:27 What is the worst thing that can happen?
20:29 That's probably what's gonna happen.
20:30 That's in my dad, my grandparents, so it's me.
20:33 So I'm like, "Well, this is never gonna happen."
20:35 And then Jim's story, he's like,
20:36 "No, I'm telling you, I'm telling you."
20:38 And then you start seeing stuff like Adam McKay.
20:40 I mean, excuse me, John C. Reilly signed up
20:42 to play so-and-so, and Sally Field, and Adrian Brody.
20:46 And then they start making it.
20:50 And you're still like, "I don't know.
20:52 "I don't know, maybe it's cool, maybe."
20:54 And then the show's coming out,
20:55 and I'm at this premiere party for this show
20:57 based on my book.
20:58 And I'm like, "This is the craziest shit ever."
21:00 And I really do mean it.
21:01 People are like, "Is it a dream come true?"
21:02 And I'm like, "It's not a dream come true,
21:04 "'cause all I want to do is be a sports illustrator
21:06 "and write a cover of baseball."
21:07 So everything since then has been this big cherry on top.
21:10 And this is one of the biggest cherries ever.
21:11 It's just phenomenal.
21:13 That's what happened.
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21:54 - All right, last question
21:59 before I hand things off to Justin.
22:03 So the book is Showtime,
22:06 but the, sorry, the TV series is Winning Time,
22:10 Rise of the Lakers Dynasty.
22:12 How did that name change come about?
22:13 And did you sign off on that or did HBO just do that?
22:17 - I would say it wasn't my call at all.
22:20 The weird thing is there's another book called Winning Time
22:23 about the Lakers that's out there.
22:25 And I'm like, not only are you changing the name
22:27 after buying the rights to my book,
22:28 but you're changing it to the name of another book.
22:31 But then like, I mean, I kind of understood it.
22:34 It's HBO.
22:35 They didn't want to maybe have this conflict with Showtime.
22:38 The weird thing is now HBO's app is called,
22:40 I mean, streaming services, Max.
22:42 And there is a Cinemax out there.
22:44 So I don't know.
22:45 Ultimately what I know is the check's always clear.
22:49 It's been a dream come true.
22:50 It's helped book sales.
22:52 My wife, my kids, and I all have had cameos in the show.
22:54 I've made a lot of really great friends and contacts.
22:57 With it in regards to Tupac research,
22:59 it's given me a remarkable amount of cred.
23:02 Like instead of just saying I'm this guy,
23:03 I also say I'm also a producer on the HBO show,
23:05 Winning Time.
23:06 And that's like, even though it's kind of
23:08 a preposterous thing, it's a pretty decent quality.
23:11 So Winning Time, Showtime.
23:13 I don't think, honest to God,
23:15 I don't think people care that much about names.
23:17 I honestly don't.
23:17 I think after a while you just watch a show
23:19 or don't watch a show.
23:20 So I don't even think about it.
23:22 - Fair enough.
23:22 All right, JQ, your turn.
23:24 - Okay, as a fellow child of the 1980s
23:28 who has written something very long
23:30 and involved in my PhD dissertation,
23:33 one of the things that really interested me
23:36 about the version that I've been watching on TV
23:41 is how, and we can talk about this a little bit more
23:44 a little bit later, how it is a dramatization
23:48 which has definitely irked some of the people involved.
23:52 I wanted to talk to you specifically about the book first.
23:55 Was that also a dramatization
23:57 or was it really close to the wire?
24:00 - Oh, the book was journalism reporting, fully reporting.
24:04 There's no dramatization in the book, no.
24:06 - Okay, cool.
24:07 So you didn't write the screenplay, but you were consulted.
24:12 How did that work?
24:14 What level of control did you have?
24:17 How did you feel about the dramatization?
24:20 What was the process like for you?
24:22 - All right, so basically, a lot of times
24:25 when people sell their books and their books are optioned,
24:28 you know, they're given a check, they say, "Thanks a lot.
24:31 "You can come to set one time
24:32 "and take your photo with this star and move on," right?
24:35 And this has been the exact opposite of that.
24:37 This has been phenomenal from the beginning.
24:38 They've been gracious and cool.
24:40 They send me every script.
24:41 They let me, they asked my opinion on casting for season two,
24:45 like different things like that.
24:46 It's been amazing.
24:47 I'm not in the writer's room.
24:48 I've never asked to be in the writer's room.
24:49 I'm not a TV writer.
24:50 Like, it's not what I do, you know?
24:53 And it's a very interesting question
24:55 because I don't know if you guys are like this,
24:58 but I'm a horrible audience for sports TV and movies.
25:02 Horrible.
25:03 I always use, I've been saying this a lot,
25:04 and it's really true.
25:05 Like, I think "Moneyball" is an excellent movie.
25:07 I do.
25:08 But I was a baseball writer
25:10 at "Sports Illustrated" during that period,
25:11 and Scott Hattenberg did not turn around those Oakland Aves.
25:14 Like, they had three Cy Young war candidates
25:18 in the starting rotation
25:19 who never get mentioned in the entire movie, right?
25:22 They had Eric Chavez playing third base.
25:24 Eric Chavez was a 30 home run, 100 RBI guy.
25:26 They had Miguel Tejada at shortstop, an MVP.
25:28 Like, I can't watch that movie and just be like,
25:31 "Oh, this is great."
25:33 Like, I'm like this.
25:34 Same with the Jackie Robinson movie, "42."
25:36 I'm like, and the worst is "We Are Marshall,"
25:39 which actually has led to my hair falling out
25:41 because I can't, that movie just, you know,
25:44 like, it's a serious issue.
25:46 People died in a plane crash,
25:47 and you're just like playing fast and loose
25:49 because it's fun.
25:50 So I suck.
25:52 I suck.
25:53 And I have really had to adjust to this.
25:57 Like, I just have, I had to adjust.
25:59 It is a dramatization.
26:00 This is not a documentary.
26:03 They do do stuff that is interpretive.
26:06 For example, in the first season, first episode,
26:09 Norm Nixon and Magic Johnson go to a white party,
26:11 and they play one-on-one.
26:12 Not a white party, like white people,
26:13 like a white party, everyone wears white.
26:15 And it didn't happen, right?
26:17 And when I first read it, I was like,
26:18 "Oh, I don't know."
26:20 But I kind of get it, like what they're trying to do.
26:22 And I actually talked to the actor
26:24 who played Jack McKinney in season one,
26:26 is a really, really well-known playwright named Tracy Letts.
26:30 And I had Tracy on my podcast, and I asked him about it.
26:33 I was like, "Are you bothered at all by sort of Jerry West?
26:35 "Should we be bothered at all by Jerry West
26:37 "being upset by the show?"
26:38 And he goes, "Not even remotely."
26:40 He's like, "Real life is not interesting.
26:43 "That's just a reality.
26:44 "Real life is not interesting.
26:45 "And if we just did, you know, shows like this
26:49 "that are real life, well, you'd watch Jerry West
26:52 "pull up in his parking lot to the forum,
26:54 "and then he'd go to the bathroom,
26:55 "and then he'd shake some hands,
26:57 "and they'd file some papers,
26:58 "and like, it doesn't work that way.
27:00 "And I've accepted it, and maybe I'm a hypocrite."
27:03 It's a fair point if someone wants to say,
27:04 "I'm a hypocrite because I do get paid for the show,
27:06 "and it certainly helps my book,
27:08 "but I've just had to accept it."
27:10 That's all you can do.
27:11 It's not easy, it's not, but I've just had to accept it.
27:15 - There's a thing in anthropology
27:16 called the crisis of representation,
27:18 and it deals with a lot of what you would expect,
27:21 the representation of the people you're dealing with
27:23 and trying to represent in your work.
27:25 And, you know, in my own work,
27:27 I've had to hide the identity of some of the people
27:30 I've worked with for political reasons,
27:32 because it could be retribution
27:33 for the stuff that they shared with me.
27:35 And that kind of sat with me a little weirdly at first,
27:40 but like, I grew in this very similar and parallel way
27:43 to kind of see the wisdom of it.
27:45 But then, like, when you were mentioning
27:47 like the Marshall situation,
27:48 that immediately drew my mind
27:50 to one of the more recent examples in the series,
27:53 where things aren't exactly as how they were
27:55 on a really fraught subject,
27:57 which is Larry Bird's father
27:59 appearing while he was in college,
28:00 which by then he was dead from suicide.
28:03 But they also handled that situation
28:06 like in a really thoughtful manner.
28:10 So, I don't know, when you saw that,
28:12 did you feel like they did that particular scene justice?
28:15 'Cause it was, admittedly, a really touchy scene.
28:18 - I have mixed feelings on all this stuff,
28:20 just as far, not just with the show, like in general.
28:23 Because like, when you write books, you can't do that.
28:28 Like, you can't do that.
28:29 You wouldn't do that.
28:29 You wouldn't even think to do it, right?
28:30 It wouldn't even be a thing.
28:32 I mean, it's just a different medium.
28:38 Like, that's being honest.
28:39 I'm actually being honest.
28:40 It's just a different medium.
28:41 It's not my medium, and it's not my world.
28:43 Like, do I like that stuff from a journalistic standpoint?
28:46 Of course not.
28:47 But it's not journalism.
28:48 It's storytelling.
28:49 And I mean, it would be weird, like to me,
28:53 it would be, all right, like a perfect example
28:58 is "The Blind Side," everything going on
28:59 with "The Blind Side" right now in that movie.
29:02 And like, that kid was already at that high school.
29:05 In real life, that kid was already at that high school
29:07 when he met that family.
29:08 That kid was already an excellent football player
29:11 when he met that family.
29:13 That woman did not, the little kid did not have
29:15 to take ketchup bottles and show him how to play football.
29:18 And I'm so disturbed by that movie in hindsight.
29:21 I was at the time, but I really am now thinking about it,
29:25 how they basically made up everything about this kid.
29:27 I feel like, at least in the defense of the show,
29:30 it did happen.
29:32 They fucked with the time, period.
29:35 Is that cool?
29:35 I guess it depends on your, I could see it either way.
29:38 You know, I just, I could see it either way.
29:41 - Yeah, I don't know if there's really a way around that
29:44 either too, because as you were alluding,
29:46 you know, real life is boring.
29:47 And even if you are representing people fairly faithfully,
29:50 it's not uncommon for them,
29:51 even when you have a recording of them
29:53 saying a certain thing, for example,
29:55 for them to push back and deny that it actually happened.
29:57 So it's a really hard needle to thread.
30:02 I don't know if I have a good landing spot for that
30:04 because it is such a difficult topic.
30:06 But what I think I will do is hand this off to Cameron
30:09 to talk about the rest of the series
30:11 on some maybe less anxiety inducing topics.
30:16 - I want to make one point about that though,
30:17 because I actually think it's a great question.
30:19 I think it's a great question.
30:20 And I, honestly, like what happens is like,
30:23 generally when people promote stuff and like actors come on,
30:27 so there's an actor strike right now.
30:28 So there's no actors here.
30:29 And you get someone like me, I'm like, you know,
30:32 this is everything, books, movies, TVs, whatever.
30:35 They get people and they prepare you
30:36 how you should answer these questions and blah, blah, blah.
30:38 If they ask you this, make sure to sidestep it, blah, blah, blah.
30:41 I think that's a hell of a question.
30:42 And I actually think like, it is a fair,
30:46 again, the we are Marshall test.
30:48 Like as an example, they're on the plane,
30:50 the plane's about to crash.
30:51 The coach says to the team, we are,
30:54 and they all go, Marshall, right?
30:56 But they didn't do that chant for years later, right?
30:58 And it's a small little thing, but like, it bothered me.
31:02 It really did bother me that like,
31:05 you're talking about a plane crash that changed
31:07 the lives of so many people.
31:11 You're talking about the ramifications of with,
31:13 people aren't born, people don't get married,
31:15 like families forever change, everything about it,
31:18 the shrapnel of that.
31:19 And to just come along and fuck around with that
31:21 is kind of crazy.
31:23 So I don't know, I guess we all justify what we do.
31:26 Like, that's one thing we all, as a journalist,
31:28 I justify my existence all the time.
31:30 When I will interview someone
31:31 in a really uncomfortable situation
31:33 and have to ask myself, is this really,
31:34 am I doing any good with this?
31:36 Or am I just being an asshole and doing my job?
31:38 I just think that's one of those things
31:39 we all have to deal with.
31:40 And it's really, there's no great answer to it.
31:42 - I like how you put that.
31:45 The personal introduction of ethics is something
31:49 that I think is not given enough attention
31:51 in modern media at any level,
31:53 whether we're talking journalism, winning time,
31:56 or I don't know, the coverage of,
32:00 the incident that just happened in Florida
32:01 with the white supremacist,
32:05 which we don't need to talk about any more than I just did.
32:08 But I don't know, very heavy, heavy turn,
32:12 but I think it is definitely worth something
32:15 for us to keep talking about
32:16 in terms of the ethics of representation,
32:18 even in something fairly lighthearted as sport,
32:20 because sport touches on the rest of our real lives
32:23 as we have been touching on.
32:25 - I just, wait, I saw the other day something,
32:28 I know this isn't about this,
32:29 but I saw the other day when there was a political rally
32:33 and Trump was mocking Chris Christie for being fat, right?
32:36 And I was thinking like,
32:37 how many people in that audience are overweight?
32:39 And somehow or another, they're able to laugh
32:41 and justify him mocking someone who's overweight.
32:44 And I just think we all sort of find a way to justify
32:47 whatever we need to justify.
32:50 You know, it's a weird human thing we do.
32:52 Maybe it's a survival mechanism, I don't know,
32:53 but it's very strange.
32:56 - It is.
32:57 - Well, I mean, I don't know if you'd heard,
32:58 Trump is 6'3", 215.
33:00 I mean, that guy's built like a linebacker, evidently.
33:03 - The crazy thing is I'm 6'3", about 200.
33:05 I'm almost 6'3", I'm like 6'2 1/2.
33:07 I mean, it is preposterous when you're near those dimensions
33:10 to actually look at him and think he's those dimensions.
33:13 I was like, he's gotta be closer to 315 than 215.
33:17 - Oh, he's got it.
33:18 There was something-
33:20 - He's a handsome man.
33:20 He's a dashingly handsome man, and that's what he is.
33:22 - I mean, his hair, it's the envy of-
33:25 - Glorious.
33:28 - Yeah, well, so Jeff, I don't know if you know this,
33:30 so I'm a history teacher, Alex is a history teacher,
33:33 and Justin is a doctor of anthropology,
33:35 so how stories get told is not incidental on this podcast,
33:38 which is why sometimes our podcast comments are like,
33:42 "These guys are so nerdy, what the hell is going on?"
33:44 But I mean-
33:45 - The nice ones.
33:46 - Yeah, the nice ones.
33:47 I'm gonna stick with that because,
33:48 and maybe you don't know the answer to this,
33:50 I don't know that Larry Bird has spoke much
33:53 about the incident question, his father's suicide,
33:57 save an interview I found in the '90s where he said,
34:00 "It was tough, I think I handled it well,"
34:02 and he doesn't elaborate.
34:04 Do you know if he was CC'd on the second season much?
34:08 - Oh, no, definitely, I don't think at all, actually.
34:11 That's my guess.
34:12 I know that, wait, time out, I will say,
34:14 I know the show tried to reach out
34:15 to these different figures.
34:17 - Sure.
34:18 - I don't know the specifics of Bird, I just don't.
34:20 This is the time when I say, "Look, I just wrote the book."
34:22 Actually, I said this to someone the other day,
34:24 I have the best of both worlds,
34:25 if you guys say, "I love the show,"
34:27 I can say, "Oh, thanks so much,"
34:28 and if you say, "I hate the show,"
34:29 I can say, "I just wrote the book."
34:31 So in that regard, I just wrote the book,
34:33 I do not know the answer to that.
34:35 - Yeah, I mean, I'll leave that ethical parenthetical
34:39 like hanging out there, I don't really know.
34:41 - I don't either.
34:42 - I thought it was an arresting episode,
34:45 I'm sure it was meaningful to a lot of people,
34:48 but maybe for the Bird family,
34:50 they could have any number of reads.
34:52 I guess a little less serious,
34:53 but still worth wondering is Jerry West's
34:55 approach to the show.
34:57 Maybe you have insight that you can't share,
35:00 but he threatened to pursue legal action,
35:04 pursued legal action against the show,
35:05 he didn't like how he was characterized,
35:08 although Jason Clark, the man who plays Jerry West
35:09 in the show is brilliant,
35:10 I mean, he's a huge bright spot on the show.
35:12 - He threatened to go to the Supreme Court,
35:18 which was a little bit bonkers.
35:20 Actually, someone said, "Boy, he showed us
35:23 "how not crazy he is by threatening to take this
35:25 "to the Supreme Court."
35:27 Here's the thing about Jerry West,
35:30 I think the depiction is pretty odd,
35:33 I get it, it's dialed up a little bit,
35:34 there's no doubt about it.
35:36 But if you, one of the best sports books ever written
35:39 is Jerry West's autobiography, autobiography,
35:42 called "West by West" or "West on West,"
35:43 I think "West by West," it's ridiculously good,
35:45 it's insightful, it's amazing.
35:47 And he speaks of his own manic behavior,
35:50 of his own sort of insane intensity
35:52 of breaking a golf club out of anger,
35:54 it's all there in the book.
35:57 So I always say, I think the writers on the show,
36:02 they do not have journalistic backgrounds, right?
36:04 And unlike me, they're not really used to dealing
36:06 with athletes when athletes get mad at you,
36:08 and I have dealt with that a lot.
36:10 And I think they were surprised by the backlash
36:13 and maybe caught a little off foot by the backlash.
36:16 And I've said to them multiple times,
36:18 and I've said in interviews multiple times,
36:20 but I always say to them, you have to expect that.
36:24 You're Jerry West, you're home,
36:26 you're watching your show, this TV show,
36:28 there's a guy in there, an actor who looks like you,
36:30 who's playing you.
36:32 And you're like, "Well, I didn't fucking say that."
36:34 Or, "That wasn't..."
36:35 You have to understand it.
36:36 And then on the flip side, I do think people like Jerry West
36:40 and Magic Johnson and Kareem, if they're watching the show,
36:43 are a little bit missing the level of homage this is
36:46 to that era and to those teams.
36:48 This is homage.
36:49 This is straight out homage to them.
36:51 And I mean, I get why someone would be upset,
36:56 but I also think like, if you watch a clip,
36:58 I think it's a love letter to Jerry West.
36:59 I really do.
37:00 I'm not dissenting.
37:01 I think it's a love letter to Jerry West.
37:02 - You know what?
37:03 So my theory is that the showrunners,
37:08 people who love sports, it is a love letter to Jerry West
37:10 because you know what he accomplished,
37:12 you know where he's going next,
37:13 you know how brilliant he is.
37:14 But like, I watched the first season with my girlfriend,
37:16 who is not a huge basketball fan.
37:19 So for example, I was getting tired of the Magic
37:22 and Cookie phone calls early enough
37:24 'cause we knew where it was going.
37:25 And she didn't know that they end up together.
37:27 So she was really dialed in,
37:29 whereas as someone who knows what happens next,
37:30 I was like, all right, got it.
37:32 Let's keep it moving.
37:33 If you didn't have, I bet everyone on this call
37:36 thinks very, very highly of Jerry West.
37:38 If you were coming as a Jerry West noob,
37:42 he's somewhere between manic and derpy in the show.
37:45 So maybe that's where the real life Jerry West
37:47 is coming from.
37:48 And maybe the showrunners don't pick up on that.
37:50 - It is interesting.
37:51 Wait, 'cause I watched recently,
37:53 there was a six part or five part documentary on Hulu
37:56 about Tupac called "Dear Mama."
37:58 - Yeah.
37:58 - And I'm working on a Tupac book,
37:59 so I was riveted by this documentary.
38:01 And my wife was kind of confused.
38:03 She was like, 'cause she's not a big hip hop fan, not huge.
38:06 And it kept going back and forth to Tupac's mother,
38:08 Feeney, who was in the Black Panthers,
38:09 and it got kind of jumbled.
38:11 And I was like, this is fantastic.
38:13 And she's like, I don't really like it.
38:14 And I do think it,
38:15 I don't know how much showrunners, screenwriters, et cetera,
38:20 I just don't know the answer to this,
38:21 taking into account that we're going to have various degrees
38:24 of knowledge observing our show,
38:27 and we should cater to this.
38:29 I just don't know how that works or what they're thinking.
38:31 - No, I don't know either.
38:32 I mean, I kind of, I don't want to get off topic too much.
38:34 I kind of have that concern with Oppenheimer.
38:37 It both made me-- - You watched it?
38:39 - It made me, yeah, it made me feel like
38:40 it insulted my intelligence
38:42 and that it knew that I was a history teacher.
38:44 - Hey, I just want to say, I'm happy to have this real quick.
38:48 I was with a friend last night.
38:50 I was with two friends last night
38:51 who were both much wiser than I am,
38:53 and they were bored by Oppenheimer.
38:56 And I was like, I am so happy you say that
38:59 because I was a history major in college.
39:00 I'm a history buff.
39:02 I was bored.
39:03 Like, I was bored after,
39:04 I thought that movie should have been an hour shorter.
39:06 And I know that's-- - Big time.
39:07 - Yeah, and like, everyone's like raving about it.
39:09 Sometimes you wonder if people rave about stuff
39:11 because they're just supposed to rave about it
39:12 versus they genuinely loved it.
39:15 - I thought the first half was gripping
39:16 and the second half really petered off.
39:19 - Well, I have the opposite concern,
39:21 and then we'll go back to basketball,
39:22 which is the first half was gripping,
39:24 but we knew the bomb was going to work.
39:25 So there were no stakes, right?
39:27 And then the second half, I actually loved.
39:29 It was like Aaron Sorkin, and it was a crime drama.
39:32 But you were so tired after watching a two-hour movie
39:34 that it was like, we're really going to watch
39:36 an episode of "The West Wing" now?
39:37 What is this?
39:39 So anyways, that's Oppenheimer for me.
39:40 - I just want to say we did the "Barbon Hopper."
39:42 "Barbon Hopper?"
39:43 - Oh, I loved "Barbon."
39:45 - And I thought "Barby" was a better fucking movie.
39:46 - Oh, big time.
39:47 - Yeah.
39:48 - I thought it really handled my intelligence well.
39:50 It just was like, hey, this is what it is, buckle up.
39:54 I thought it was great.
39:55 Whereas Oppenheimer, they were like,
39:56 the Germans think it's hydrogen, but we know it's nitrogen.
39:59 And then they draw something on the chalkboard
40:00 and it was like, all right, thanks.
40:01 Thanks, movie.
40:02 Okay, anyways.
40:03 So Jerry West's depiction, we think is probably true to life.
40:08 Some people haven't loved it.
40:10 Quincy Isaiah as Magic has been a revelation.
40:12 I know, again, you can't claim that,
40:14 but any thoughts on Quincy Isaiah
40:16 or just any other portrayals in the show?
40:18 - Man, I'll tell you a few things.
40:19 First of all, this I really mean.
40:22 Kareem "Magic" Byrd, they could have cast that
40:25 for the next hundred years,
40:26 and I don't think they would have found any better guys
40:27 than those three.
40:28 I just think it's a true.
40:30 Quincy, his real name is Quincy Crosby.
40:33 He goes by Quincy Isaiah.
40:34 He was a football offensive lineman at Kalamazoo College
40:39 with almost no acting experience whatsoever.
40:42 Very young.
40:43 I think he did local theater, maybe community theater,
40:45 but that's it.
40:46 And it was like needle in a haystack, awesome.
40:49 Kareem is Dr. Solomon Hughes, who played center at Kal.
40:54 And he's not that much younger.
40:55 He's about 42, but he's also like, he's a PhD.
40:59 He's very intellectual and he's really smart.
41:01 And it's all cliche, but it's true.
41:02 Like he has his Kareem like-
41:03 - Yeah, that's perfect.
41:04 - Pride about him.
41:05 That's really good.
41:06 And they're both awesome.
41:07 Like they're both like really good hay.
41:09 It's like, they're just good people to hang out with.
41:11 And Sean Patrick Small,
41:12 the original bird was Bo Burnham, the comedian.
41:15 Originally cast as Bird and he dropped out.
41:18 And Sean Patrick Small, he's really a writer
41:21 and he lives about an hour North of me.
41:23 He's from Northern California.
41:25 And there's a Seth Davis book.
41:26 Seth is a former colleague of mine at SI.
41:28 He wrote a book about Magic Bird
41:30 and the Michigan State, Indiana State game.
41:33 And Sean had optioned that
41:35 because he wanted to write it as a screenplay.
41:37 And he wanted to play Bird in the adaptation.
41:40 - Cool.
41:41 - Bo Burnham drops out.
41:43 Somehow Sean finds out that they're casting for Bird.
41:46 He reads via Zoom, I think, on like a Friday
41:50 and he gets cast on a Monday.
41:51 About six weeks, he's a great guy.
41:54 About six weeks ago, he shows up at my hang.
41:56 I play pickup basketball every Saturday morning
41:59 and I've been bugging him to come down and play.
42:01 And he shows up.
42:02 He's in real life, he's six four.
42:04 He played high school ball, a good player.
42:06 Played college intramurals, all that stuff.
42:08 He shows up and he tells me
42:10 that he shoots just like Bird now.
42:12 Because in training for the show, they remastered his shot.
42:15 So he actually does, he has the exact same high release point
42:18 as Larry Bird and he's a really good player.
42:20 So he shows up shooting like Bird.
42:22 And they just like, they really got it.
42:26 Like they really, really, really got it with those three.
42:29 And it would have been predictable
42:34 if they found like the hot, young African-American actor
42:38 to play Magic Johnson.
42:39 You know what I mean?
42:40 - Right.
42:41 - You know, whoever Michael B. Jordan is 10 years younger.
42:43 Like we got the, oh, we got this guy.
42:45 He was in this show and this show and this show.
42:47 But you look at him and you're always thinking,
42:48 oh, that's Michael B. Jordan.
42:49 And like, Quincy just oozes.
42:51 He oozes this thing.
42:52 He has a really beautiful smile.
42:54 He has this thing about him that's like cool and confident.
42:58 And like, they just somehow nailed it.
43:00 It's insane.
43:02 - I mean, it's like I said, I have to jump first of all,
43:04 like the show is carefully well-made,
43:05 but the source material is great.
43:07 Like Dr. Bust was a character.
43:09 Magic Johnson is a character.
43:10 Like it just works.
43:12 Okay, a couple of kitchen sick things
43:14 and then we'll let you go.
43:15 Just while we're on casting,
43:17 Devon Nixon plays his dad, Norm Nixon.
43:20 How did that come about?
43:21 And have you talked to Devon about playing his dad?
43:24 - Yeah, oh yeah.
43:25 Well, so little known fact,
43:28 Devon played Whitney Houston's son in "The Bodyguard."
43:32 So he was a child actor.
43:34 He was in a bunch of stuff.
43:35 He liked his IMDb page.
43:36 And actually I was with him the first,
43:39 my wife and my kids and I were all in,
43:42 we all been in the show.
43:43 And the day I think my kid shot,
43:45 Devon was shooting the same scene.
43:47 He was in that scene actually.
43:48 And the funny thing is,
43:51 I don't think like,
43:52 I think his dad has been insanely hands-off about it all.
43:56 Like kind of like you do you.
43:58 'Cause I think it's the only,
43:59 I think it's probably the gateway
44:01 to a healthy father-son relationship,
44:03 you know, is like to not have your dad overloading you.
44:06 And the thing, I remember when I wrote the book,
44:09 I went, 'cause Norm Nixon's married to Debbie Allen,
44:11 the former, I don't know if you guys are a little young,
44:13 but Debbie Allen was in "Fame" and she's a famous actress
44:15 and she's been in a ton of stuff.
44:17 And she runs a dance studio.
44:18 And I interviewed Norm at the dance studio
44:20 and I met Debbie Allen.
44:20 Debbie Allen was a childhood crush of mine.
44:22 So I was like, oh, Debbie Allen.
44:23 And Norm Nixon, but Debbie Allen, what?
44:26 And I just think that the whole thing for Devon
44:28 has been like his dad has kind of stayed out of it
44:31 and he's done it.
44:32 He's also in "Snowfall" right now, Devon Nixon.
44:35 The guy's, for my, he's, I mean, it's a big statement.
44:39 He might be the best actor in the show.
44:41 Like he is, everyone talks about how preposterously talented
44:44 he is as an actor.
44:45 He just, he oozes that thing.
44:48 Like when you see him on screen, he really like,
44:50 I hate to be this bullshit Hollywood nonsense,
44:53 but like you do keep your eyes on him
44:55 when he's on the screen.
44:55 He kind of has some sparks coming off him.
44:57 - And the first episode, two episodes where you meet him,
45:01 it's like, oh, they're going to use him as a heel
45:02 to like tell the story.
45:03 But it's like, no, he deserves all the oxygen
45:05 he gets in the room.
45:06 It's really good.
45:07 - He's great.
45:08 He's great.
45:09 - Quick shout out.
45:10 - Quick shout out.
45:11 His dad has a podcast on our network.
45:13 I can't remember his name right now
45:15 because I'm an excellent plugger,
45:17 but just go look for it on the NBA History and Legends
45:21 channel on CLNS Media.
45:23 - I think it might be with Michael Cooper, actually.
45:25 I think it might be two of your enemies.
45:26 - Yeah. - I think it might be
45:27 with Michael Cooper, yeah.
45:28 - I think you're right about that.
45:30 'Cause we, there is a lot of synergy
45:32 between the Lakers and the Celtics
45:33 when it comes to podcast making.
45:35 - Yeah.
45:36 - Tell us a story of your cameo.
45:39 How'd you do?
45:40 - Well, so I technically have two cameos,
45:42 but my one, I had one in the pilot episode.
45:45 My wife and I both were shot the same day.
45:48 My wife ended up getting a laugh.
45:50 Like she actually laughs.
45:51 She plays the Chicago Bulls administrative assistant
45:54 and I'm just a reporter, so you see my back.
45:56 But this year, I'm in episode five,
45:59 I play a reporter at a press conference.
46:01 I get to ask three questions.
46:02 John C. Roddy's Dairy Bus calls at me
46:05 and actually calls me Jeff.
46:06 Like, it's a nice little thing, you know?
46:09 - Yeah.
46:10 - I was super excited.
46:12 I got there very early to the Warner lot in LA.
46:16 You do wardrobe, which is cool.
46:19 You have your own trailer with your name on it,
46:21 which is cool.
46:22 They do makeup.
46:23 I had a wig, had everything put on, cool.
46:26 Craft services, cool.
46:28 I go to the set of "Time to Kill."
46:29 The set of Abbott Elementary is right next door,
46:31 so I'm walking around the school bus.
46:32 - Wow, very cool.
46:33 - Cool.
46:35 And then it's time to film the scene.
46:37 And they take you over to the set
46:38 and I'm a reporter at a press conference.
46:39 And I'm literally not joking,
46:41 had my lines written on my hand because I was so nervous.
46:44 They're like three lines.
46:45 I could recite them now for you.
46:46 Like, they're not hard, you know?
46:47 But like, so they shoot it, I do it.
46:51 They shoot it again, I do it again.
46:53 Shoot again, I do it again.
46:55 They shot that scene, I think I had is 104 times total.
46:59 I was there from like 11 in the morning
47:01 to about nine at night, maybe.
47:04 It was dreadful.
47:05 It was so boring and hot and itching.
47:08 My head started itching.
47:09 This is the worst part, my head starts itching.
47:11 And I'm like, I don't know, I get home
47:14 and I have like bumps all over my head.
47:16 And I actually asked another cast member,
47:19 I don't know what's going on,
47:20 if I'm having allergic reactions.
47:21 She's like, "Take some Benadryl."
47:22 I take Benadryl.
47:23 Next morning I wake up, my head is just enormous.
47:25 It's like a pumpkin.
47:26 And I go to urgent care and I'm having an allergic reaction
47:30 to the wig glue that they used on my head.
47:33 So basically, I was there for 100 gazillion hours.
47:37 It was boring as all anything.
47:40 I had an allergic reaction, I had to go to urgent care.
47:42 But it's one of the coolest things ever to have
47:45 as a little clip in my life, you know?
47:47 - Yeah, that showbiz.
47:49 Why so many takes?
47:51 - They're just meticulous, as you can imagine.
47:53 Different angles, we have to use this camera,
47:55 we have to use that camera, we're gonna shoot with this.
47:57 They do some of the footage with the Super 8,
48:00 which is like the old-fashioned camera.
48:02 Yeah, it was a grind.
48:04 It was a grind.
48:05 Like it was not, I could lie to you guys.
48:08 Like a lot of people I think would promote a show
48:09 and be like, "Oh, it's the best."
48:11 It was the worst.
48:12 It sucked, it was horrible.
48:13 But the people are lovely and professional and cool,
48:16 and I'm glad I have it.
48:17 But I've never, I've told this story a few times.
48:20 Years and years ago, I did a story for TV Guide
48:23 and I went to the set of a TV show called "Love Monkey,"
48:26 and it was like Tom Cavanaugh, Jason Priestley
48:28 from "90210" was in the show.
48:30 And I remember interviewing Jason Priestley
48:32 after watching them shoot the scene like 30 times.
48:35 And I said, "I'm gonna be honest with you,
48:36 "that seemed kind of boring."
48:38 And he goes, "Brother, you have no idea."
48:40 And I feel like now, 20 years after "Love Monkey,"
48:43 I have my own idea.
48:44 - Yeah, you gotta follow up, you gotta go find him.
48:47 - Yeah, find Priestley and be like, "You were right, buddy."
48:49 - All right, Jeff Pearlman,
48:50 I'm gonna give you three quick questions
48:51 and we'll get you out of here.
48:52 How's that?
48:54 Just to justify you coming on a Celtics podcast,
48:56 Rick Fox was consulted for the show
48:59 and obviously bridges the gap
49:00 between the Celtics and Lakers.
49:02 Any conversations with Rick Fox, any Rick Fox stories?
49:05 - I love Rick Fox.
49:06 So first of all, it's weird because when,
49:11 this is the thing that first came into my head,
49:14 when Kobe Bryant, when news first came out
49:17 that Kobe Bryant had crashed,
49:19 like first, first, first news, someone texted me.
49:21 And I was in a corner bakery writing
49:25 and someone texted me, "Did you hear about Kobe?"
49:27 And I said, "What?"
49:27 She wrote, "Died in a plane crash."
49:30 And I was like, "What, a helicopter crash?"
49:32 One of the first people I texted was Rick Fox
49:34 to see what he knew.
49:36 And actually the initial reports right after that
49:39 were Rick Fox was on the helicopter.
49:41 - Yeah, I remember that.
49:42 - He ended up not being,
49:43 but he was one of the first guys I texted.
49:45 Rick is a really nice guy.
49:46 And he hated Rick Pitino.
49:50 I mean, he's not alone in that, obviously,
49:51 but he felt, I remember it 'cause I ended up writing,
49:54 I wrote a followup book called "Three Ringed Circus"
49:58 about the Shaq-Kobe Lakers.
49:59 And obviously he went from the South to the Lakers.
50:02 And he basically said, I mean, in not so many words,
50:05 Rick Pitino was a dishonest piece of shit, you know?
50:07 And that he didn't keep his word and blah, blah, blah, blah.
50:10 So yeah.
50:11 - That sounds familiar.
50:12 I keep getting notifications on my phone
50:14 about something familiar.
50:15 - Yeah, he's a, Rick is a really cool guy.
50:18 He's super, you meet him.
50:20 My wife was like, we went to a screening
50:22 and Rick Fox was there.
50:23 And my wife was like, "Oh, Rick Fox."
50:25 And I was like, "You can shut up now."
50:27 You know, like he still has like that dashing cool thing
50:30 that, you know.
50:31 - Well, he used to live in Watertown,
50:33 which is a suburb in Boston.
50:34 And so he used to be like a little bit of a man around town.
50:37 I think he lives in California now.
50:39 - Very nice guy, legit nice guy.
50:41 - Yeah, no high on my list of,
50:44 I'm sure you've had this experience where most of the time
50:46 you play it cool when you meet people you look up to.
50:48 Rick Fox, this is someone I don't know
50:50 that I do a good job with that.
50:52 - You're like my wife, going like, "Oh, Mr. Fox, hey."
50:55 - I mean.
50:56 - That's okay.
50:58 - Look at him, he's aged like a fine wine,
51:00 a fine non-alcoholic wine.
51:01 This is a selfish question.
51:05 Do you know Neil Best personally?
51:07 - I do not.
51:08 - I thought maybe 'cause of the news day.
51:10 Okay, thought I'd ask.
51:12 Okay, you have a podcast, is that correct?
51:15 - I do.
51:16 - Plug the product.
51:17 - Oh, it's called "Two Writers Slinging Yang."
51:19 It's a different journalist every week.
51:20 It comes out usually Monday evenings.
51:22 And I just love talking shop.
51:25 Like I love talking shop.
51:26 I don't make money for it.
51:27 I produce on my own.
51:28 Just gets a couple of thousand listens every week.
51:30 It's not huge, but like I had Adam McKay on,
51:33 I've had Jimmy Kimmel on, like I've had some big guests.
51:36 And then mainly it's like, I had Dan Shaughnessy on,
51:39 you know, for good or bad.
51:42 I know, but I, you know,
51:43 different writers and different mediums.
51:44 And I just dig talking and writing.
51:46 I really do.
51:47 - Well, that's perfect.
51:48 My last question was going to be,
51:50 who's a one guest past or present
51:53 that would be like absolute tops for you?
51:55 I mean, here, let me,
51:58 I'll let you think while I do our outro.
52:00 How's that?
52:01 Okay, so this episode of the Southside Podcast
52:03 was brought to you by FanDuel,
52:04 the exclusive wagering partner of the CLNS Media Network.
52:06 We've been talking with Jeff Perlman.
52:08 He is a author 10 times over,
52:10 nine times on the New York Times bestseller list.
52:12 I think I have that right.
52:13 Maybe it's 10.
52:15 Yeah.
52:15 - It's 10, or you can say the accurate number,
52:17 which is I think seven.
52:19 - Or seven, or several.
52:20 We do history.
52:23 We don't do math on this podcast.
52:24 All right, Mr. Perlman,
52:26 who would be the cream of the crop as podcast guest?
52:29 - Yeah, I just thought of this.
52:30 When I was in college at the University of Delaware,
52:32 my, the guy who changed my life in many ways
52:36 was a professor named Bill Fleischman.
52:37 And he was a columnist for the New York Daily News.
52:40 Excuse me, Philadelphia Daily News.
52:42 And he became a very, very close friend, guide, et cetera.
52:46 And not to get depressing, he died about five years ago,
52:48 and I never had him on, 'cause it was very early in the pod.
52:51 And that's one of my regrets.
52:53 So if I could go back in time, I would get Bill Fleischman on.
52:56 - Wow, I love that.
52:57 Wow.
52:58 I'm getting a little emotional.
53:00 Thank you for sharing that, Jeff.
53:02 Okay, well, Jeff, if anything,
53:05 you want people to check out, check out twice,
53:07 be on the lookout for?
53:09 - Uh, I have my Bo Jackson book called "The Last Vulk" here.
53:13 It comes out in paperback, I think next week or two weeks.
53:17 And yeah, just, I don't know.
53:19 Watch the show.
53:20 I would say this, honest to God, this is what I'll tell you.
53:23 I want the show to survive.
53:24 It is really hard times.
53:26 Actors can't promote, writers can't promote.
53:28 It's basically up to people like me,
53:30 the people nobody wants to hear from to promote.
53:32 And this show needs views.
53:33 It's an expensive show.
53:34 It's a great show, but it needs views.
53:36 - It's really good.
53:37 If you could just encourage, honest to God,
53:38 I would, if you know, if your listeners and fans
53:41 or whatever could just support the show,
53:43 even though they're Celtic fans,
53:45 there's hardcore Larry Bird.
53:46 There's a lot of Larry Bird love.
53:48 Episode, the last few episodes,
53:50 a lot of Celtics, chunky Celtics.
53:52 So if you could just watch the show,
53:53 I'd be so appreciative.
53:54 - Yeah, whoever's playing Red Auerbach has also nailed it.
53:58 - I could say- - Ticklis, yeah.
54:00 - Oh, to share my age, geez.
54:02 - I'll just say real quick,
54:05 they had a premiere party last year for the first season.
54:08 It was the best party I've ever been to.
54:10 It was probably a better night than my wedding.
54:12 (Rick laughs)
54:13 And not only that, my wife wasn't even in town.
54:14 She was out of town.
54:16 So I took my kids and my kids are both teenagers.
54:19 And we go to this party and it's the greatest thing ever.
54:23 It is the greatest thing ever.
54:24 They send a car for us.
54:26 They have a red carpet to walk.
54:28 Oh, there's Jason Segel.
54:29 My daughter loves Jason Segel.
54:30 Can you take a picture of me?
54:31 Sure, the whole thing.
54:33 And my daughter goes, they had a cigar rolling station
54:37 with winning time labels on them.
54:39 So it's like, we're at the premiere of a TV show
54:42 based on a book I wrote and they have a cigar station.
54:44 My daughter goes, "We should smoke cigars."
54:47 And I'm like, first dad of the year moment.
54:50 We should smoke cigars.
54:51 So me, my daughter, my son,
54:53 who was probably a sophomore in high school at the time,
54:55 all try, my son was like, "I don't want to."
54:57 I was like, "You're trying a cigar, damn it."
54:59 We all took puffs of a cigar
55:01 with the actor who plays Red Auerbach, Michael Chikovs.
55:03 Oh man.
55:05 Very cool.
55:06 And I feel like it's okay to be a bad parent
55:08 every once in a while.
55:09 In fact, sometimes being a bad parent
55:10 makes you a good parent.
55:11 Yeah, totally.
55:12 Particularly if you have a chance to smoke
55:14 a Red Auerbach cigar,
55:15 at least the closest you can get to that.
55:18 We all snort a Coke together.
55:19 Is that bad?
55:20 Oh yes, yes, yes, of course.
55:21 It's just different.
55:23 It's just different.
55:24 There's no good or bad.
55:25 Cokes are difficult.
55:27 All right, on that unbelievable anecdote,
55:29 Jeff Pearlman, congrats on all the success.
55:32 Thanks for spending time with us.
55:34 This was great.
55:34 Yeah, give us a ring when Alex plays bass
55:38 in a successful band.
55:39 That's good enough for us to have you
55:40 come talk about Tupac.
55:41 Oh yeah, let's do it.
55:43 All right, thank you guys so much.
55:44 I really do appreciate it.
55:45 Thanks for your time.
55:46 Take it easy.
55:46 Thanks everyone.
55:47 Like and subscribe.
55:48 We'll see you later.
55:49 Adios.
55:50 New FanDuel customers can bet $5
55:53 and get 200 in bonus bets, guarantee.
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56:00 off NFL Sunday ticket from YouTube at YouTube TV.
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