Rotherham win, Jobe's brilliance, transfer latest and Mowbray reports dissected
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00:36 Hello and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:42 My name is Joe Nicholson.
00:43 I'll be hosting for today and I'm joined by my fellow Sunderland writer,
00:47 James Copley.
00:48 And we're gonna be reviewing Sunderland's 2-1 win over Rotherham at
00:52 the Stadium of Light, their first win of the season.
00:55 And James, although some may say it was only Rotherham, it was a home game.
01:01 Just how important was it for Sunderland to get the three points on Saturday and
01:05 get their season up and running?
01:07 >> Yeah, very important.
01:08 I think we all stopped shy of calling the game a must win, but
01:11 it was definitely a must not lose.
01:14 Sunderland did better than that in the one the game that takes some of
01:16 the pressure off.
01:18 Sunderland should be beating Rotherham at home.
01:19 There's no doubt about that.
01:21 You think back to Tony Mowbray's first game at the club,
01:24 which was a win over Rotherham at the Stadium of Light.
01:29 He needed that day to sort of alleviate the tension and
01:32 alleviate fears that Sunderland were gonna go backwards.
01:36 They didn't go backwards, they pushed on.
01:38 And Rotherham at home, again, needs to be the platform for
01:43 Mowbray and the Sunderland side to hopefully push on again and
01:47 get close to or better in last season's positivity and success.
01:52 >> I felt there was quite a lot of angst in the stadium, kind of around the first
01:57 20 minutes, and particularly when Rotherham scored that goal in the 20th minute.
02:01 Sunderland, as we've seen kind of quite a lot playing at home last season and
02:06 in the first kind of two games, they've seen how a lot of the ball.
02:08 But without that natural strike or
02:10 that natural focal point struggled to kind of get into the final third.
02:14 There wasn't really able to anyone to stretch the Rotherham defense.
02:17 They were able to push up quite a little bit higher.
02:20 And then they got the goal in the 20th minute.
02:22 But to be fair, Sunderland after that, like they did at Preston,
02:25 they reacted pretty well.
02:26 Joe Bellingham getting his first Sunderland goal after a good header back across goal
02:30 from Dan Neil after Jack Clark's cross.
02:32 And then Bellingham got the winner shortly after halftime.
02:35 So we'll just touch on Bellingham's performance,
02:37 obviously, the match winner on Saturday with these two goals.
02:41 It was a kind of different kind of role for him, wasn't it?
02:43 Because he was having to play as like the number nine a lot of the time with
02:46 Bradley Dack dropping deep.
02:48 And he was the one that was having to make those runs to stretch the Rotherham
02:50 defense and basically become the striker a lot of the time.
02:54 >> I thought it was really interesting, that dynamic actually, because as you say,
02:58 for the first 20 minutes, Rotherham were on top.
03:00 It was nervy at the stadium of like, I think the pressure told a little bit.
03:04 And it's weird that this group seems to need to go behind to wake up,
03:07 because when they do wake up, they play some brilliant football.
03:11 But in that first 20 minutes, Dack was definitely deployed furthest forward.
03:15 And when Rotherham scored, there was a change.
03:17 I don't know whether that came from Tony Mowbray,
03:19 whether the players on the pitch sorted it out.
03:21 But it was noticeable that Dack started to come deeper and deeper,
03:24 and Bellingham was the focal point.
03:26 And it worked for us in the end, which was great.
03:30 I don't think Bellingham's a striker at all,
03:32 even though he took his two goals extremely well.
03:35 I don't think he's the answer to that problem.
03:36 We definitely do need a striker in January, but hugely positive performance for
03:40 Bellingham. The finish for the second was great.
03:43 Getting the first with a header as well, you need that physicality up front.
03:48 I thought there was a really interesting moment.
03:50 I can't remember exactly in the first half.
03:51 I think it was just before Sunderland went a goal down.
03:54 But you had Bradley Dack back to two Rotherham defenders trying to hold the ball up
04:01 in just over the halfway line.
04:03 And he was really struggling to, because it's not his game, isn't it?
04:07 Playing back to two defenders.
04:10 Bellingham could perform that role slightly better.
04:13 And when that switch happened, it allowed Dack to get on the ball.
04:16 Bellingham to stretch the defenders and push people a bit further up the pitch.
04:21 I would be really interested to see how Dack would fare playing further up.
04:26 But off a striker like Ross Stewart in the Nathan Broadhead role or something similar to that.
04:32 But, yes, I thought that tactical switch was really interesting to begin with,
04:36 when Dack clearly started as the number nine, so to speak.
04:41 And then that was quickly jettisoned after Sunderland went a goal behind.
04:45 And I think starting games on the front foot is something Sunderland really need to do.
04:51 They did it against Ipswich, to be fair, and they were sucker punched either side of half-time.
04:56 Perhaps it's a confidence issue, a bit of an experience as well.
04:59 But you can't keep throwing those goals away.
05:04 And just on the goal as well, Joe, I thought, I don't know how you saw it,
05:09 but live I thought that 09 was probably at fault because he was dragged so far over.
05:14 But then when you watch the replay back a couple of times,
05:17 Sergan sort of loses his man and is in no-man's land between the right winger and the right back.
05:23 But to be fair to him, he's only in no-man's land because the right backs overlap and Clark hasn't gone with him.
05:30 Ekouar probably could have done a bit better in the middle to get back in.
05:34 The problem probably started in midfield, but then obviously goes out to Clark.
05:38 Sergan can't deal with it.
05:39 Then 09's pulled over.
05:41 So, sort of collective responsibility and a bit of an experience for that goal as well.
05:46 But, you know, positives are suddenly bounced back really, really quickly.
05:50 And, I mean, Joe Bellingham, it looks like we've got a player on our hands, 17 years old.
05:56 I tweeted at the weekend that it feels like we've maybe robbed Birmingham a little bit.
06:02 I know he wasn't so hot against Preston, but I actually thought against Ipswich Town he showed some quality.
06:09 First ever senior goals.
06:10 I think the youngest player to score a brace since Ryan Sessegnon for Fulham in 2019, something like that.
06:17 So, he's in good company.
06:18 He's doing all the right things.
06:20 More brace, constantly talking about how he's always asking questions and he wants to learn.
06:26 I think that's a real positive.
06:28 And long may it continue.
06:31 Yeah, I actually spoke to Bellingham after the game.
06:33 Spoke really well for someone who's 17, turning 18 this week, actually.
06:37 And kind of asked him about his role in the side.
06:40 And he didn't want to give too much of the tactics away.
06:43 But he was saying that it was kind of his job to make those forward runs, push Rotherham's back line further back.
06:50 And then that allowed space for people like Clark and Roberts, more space to kind of get on the ball and run forward.
06:55 And we've seen what kind of damage they can cause going forward.
06:59 And they kind of got more into the game.
07:00 I thought they were both very lively as well.
07:02 Zach, as you said, dropped deeper and got on the ball more.
07:04 And Dan Neal as well was making some forward runs into the box as well to support Bellingham.
07:09 Obviously headed the ball back across goal for the opener.
07:11 And he had a very good game as well.
07:14 But just going back to defensively, as you were talking about there, it's now five goals conceded in three league games for Sunderland.
07:21 There was also some chance for Danny Bath as well after Sunderland fell behind from the Roker end.
07:28 Now, I think we touched on it on last week's podcast that would Danny Bath have stopped the five goals that Sunderland have conceded?
07:34 You can't say 100% that he wouldn't have done.
07:38 I think if Sunderland were conceding as they were consistently at the end of last season,
07:42 from kind of crosses into the box and set pieces, you can make a strong argument for Danny Bath coming into the side.
07:48 But as you mentioned, I don't think it's kind of one individual error that's kind of leading to these goals.
07:54 I think it is kind of collectively.
07:56 A lot of the goals kind of maybe coming from mistakes in midfield towards the back.
08:00 You mentioned O9 maybe looked like he was out of place for that goal, but maybe that came from midfield as well.
08:06 So what are your kind of thoughts?
08:07 I know you've said before on the podcast that you would probably have Danny Bath in the team alongside Ballard.
08:12 But kind of what are your thoughts now?
08:14 I think while Sunderland are still conceding goals, I would be tempted to have Bath in there just for his experience.
08:19 Just because I think of when O9 has played his best football at centre back,
08:24 it's been alongside Danny Bath. When Dan Ballard has played his best football at centre back, it's been alongside Danny Bath.
08:31 We'll get into the stats in a second, but I think there are some things that stats can't measure.
08:35 Leadership is one of them. Tactical now, talking players through the game.
08:39 I think that comes from a centre back to midfield, especially an experienced head who can sort of marshal the likes of Dan Neal and Equart, who are positionally very good.
08:47 But perhaps that experienced eye may have been able to prevent that goal at the weekend.
08:53 We don't know for sure. It's not to single O9 out, who had a very good game.
08:59 But statistically, when you drill down into the numbers, O9 is more accurate with his passing.
09:04 He makes more progressive passes. He makes more passes forward.
09:09 He's better at running out with the ball.
09:11 And I actually thought O9 grew into that game against Rotherham United.
09:15 I thought he led the team well as captain.
09:18 So it's a tough one because Sunderland are conceiving goals and they've got the player of the season on the bench.
09:23 I do see the logic in O9.
09:27 It just feels weird, doesn't it, Joe?
09:28 Because I feel like every season we have this sort of culture war within Sunderland circles on O9 and whether he should be in the team, whether he shouldn't be, what's his best position?
09:37 It seems to happen sort of every six months.
09:41 But at the end of the day, Sunderland did come out with the win.
09:44 But yeah, for me, there's just that lingering thing that perhaps the experience of Danny Barth might have helped.
09:49 But Tony Mowbray is very sort of adamant on the way he wants to play.
09:52 You could say the system has changed slightly since last season, obviously with the departure of Ahmad.
09:59 So the creativity needs to be shared around a little bit more and Sunderland want to sort of evolve and play out from the back a little bit more.
10:08 O9, with his background in midfield, is probably a little more suited to that role than Barth, you would expect.
10:14 There's also the uncertainty lingering around Barth's contract.
10:18 He's got a year left to transfer.
10:20 Question, will he go to Blackburn?
10:21 QPR have also been linked.
10:23 So I think there's all sorts of stuff going on behind the scenes that we're not privy to.
10:28 And it makes for an interesting narrative going into the last week and a half of the transfer window.
10:34 But yeah, for me, probably would just still have Danny Barth in there.
10:38 But when Lugo 9 is named on the team sheet, it's not something that really worries me or I have any major complaints about.
10:46 But yeah, the caveat to that is Sunderland have conceded five goals.
10:49 Whether you could blame that one against Rotherham on O9, I think is a dubious proposition.
10:55 As I say live, I actually did think it was O9's fault.
10:57 But when you drill down into it and watch it back a couple of times, it's a tough one.
11:04 As I said earlier, Barth might stay in position.
11:08 He might not get dragged over.
11:10 But then if the cross comes in and nobody challenges him and Rotherham score anyway, you know, O9 still at fault.
11:15 So he's on a bit of a hide-in to nothing, really.
11:17 What I will say is I thought Dan Ballard was excellent with a couple of his recovery tackles winning the ball back.
11:25 And I did dig up some stats on O9.
11:27 So he played, he completed 94 out of 98 passes, 96% passing accuracy, 10 out of 13 duels won.
11:36 And he actually won all of his aerial duels, which is sort of a stick that's used to beat him.
11:41 He's not as good as the air as somebody like Adani Bath, but on Saturday, he actually didn't lose an aerial duel.
11:48 So it's an interested, multifaceted debate, I think.
11:53 I think, yeah, Sunderland have definitely now got that hype back, haven't they?
11:55 Because at the end of the last season, I think it became something silly, didn't it?
11:58 Like five goals conceded in four games from crossers into the box.
12:03 They have got that hype back now with Ballard obviously back.
12:06 And you say there O9 winning a lot of his aerial duels as well.
12:09 And I think you mentioned Danny Bath's leadership.
12:12 And yes, he was excellent last season as a captain, as a leader, very kind of influential person in the dressing room.
12:18 But I think O9 is that as well.
12:19 I remember the game back, even the second leg at Luton where you're a bit closer to the pitch and you can hear kind of
12:24 Luko O9 is one of the very vocal players on the pitch, kind of shouting instructions to his teammates.
12:30 So a lot of the younger players, he is kind of a leadership figure as well in that dressing room and a very influential person in there.
12:37 And he's worn the captain's armband in the last few games.
12:39 So that is another kind of thing that he brings to his game.
12:42 And obviously, as you mentioned, the passes forward, that's something that probably he's better at doing than Danny Bath,
12:48 even if he doesn't have maybe the height and the physicality.
12:50 So it'll be an interesting one to see how that develops.
12:53 But Mowbray obviously is, that's his first choice partnership at the minute with Ballard and O9 in there in defence.
13:00 But you kind of touched on the transfer situation just there.
13:04 Danny Bath is one of the players who has got a year left on his contract.
13:08 One of the players that Tony Mowbray has admitted could leave this summer.
13:12 The other two being Alex Pritchard, who he actually came out and said is probably likely to leave in his pre-match press conference last week.
13:18 The other one being Lyndon Gooch, all three kind of have a year left on their contract,
13:22 all three quite popular players or three quite influential players in the dressing room.
13:27 You saw when Pritchard came on on Saturday against Rotherham, he got a big cheer from the home crowd.
13:32 Gooch as well, they were chanting his name at the end.
13:35 So what do you kind of think on those three?
13:38 It would be a big gamble to let all three go.
13:40 You'd think probably maybe one would go.
13:43 How kind of big a decision is it with all those three players?
13:46 Because it would be a big call to let even two of them leave the club, I think.
13:49 Yeah, I agree. I really like all three players.
13:52 I think Danny Bath was excellent last season.
13:54 Lyndon Gooch is a player who I've personally watched play for Sunderland's Under-21s against Tottenham in the Premier League too.
14:02 I've seen him play in League One.
14:04 I've seen him score the winner in the Parma John's Trophy.
14:06 I've seen him lose playoff finals, win playoff finals, be relegated.
14:10 I've seen him made his debut against Manchester City in the Premier League against Pep Guardiola.
14:15 He's done it all with the club.
14:16 Massive servant, bleeds red and white, like proper adopted Magnum.
14:22 I still think he has something to contribute to Sunderland, to be honest.
14:26 Possibly not as a starter, but you need players like Lyndon Gooch who can play left back, right back, anywhere off the front.
14:36 He's a leader as well, understands what it means, brings that passion.
14:39 Somebody who can really communicate to players that are maybe not from the area what it's like to play for Sunderland.
14:45 What the expectations are, what the fans are like, what the area is like.
14:50 You need players like that.
14:51 And I'm not saying that we should keep Lyndon Gooch around the building simply for that reason.
14:55 I do genuinely think he can contribute as well.
14:57 He's combative and he's a good asset.
15:00 The same with Alex Pritchard and Bath, to be honest.
15:03 Pritchard's a player I really like.
15:04 I know me, you and Phil have spoken on this podcast this season that perhaps we would have started Pritchard in one of these three league games.
15:12 He's a player I really rate.
15:14 I've said before that he's dragged Sunderland through some pretty tricky moments,
15:19 came up with goals towards the back end of last season when Sunderland were pushing for promotion.
15:24 As you mentioned, all three have got a year left on the deal.
15:27 I think it would be really, really, really bad to let all three of them go.
15:33 If one goes, I can sort of get away with it.
15:36 But I think we have to be careful that we don't tip too far towards the youth.
15:44 I think it's great to have young players.
15:46 We all enjoy seeing the Chris Riggs score, Joe Bellingham score,
15:51 players like Dennis Oaken and Trey Hulme coming in and evolving into first team players.
15:56 We enjoy seeing Dan Neal in the middle of the park.
15:59 We enjoy seeing Anthony Patterson and Goal.
16:01 We're all for stuff like that.
16:03 There's no doubt about that.
16:04 But you do need players like Bath to bring the Ballards through.
16:09 You need players like Alex Pritchard for Chris Rigg to learn off.
16:13 I know we've brought Bradley Dakin and he's here to replace him for Alex Pritchard.
16:17 But when we brought Bradley Dakin, I personally didn't think, right, that means Alex Pritchard's going.
16:23 My actual thought was this squad could maybe do with a touch more experience,
16:27 especially with Evans being out for a while yet.
16:30 There is an argument that most squad members at Sunderland are a year more experienced
16:37 than they were. You mentioned all nine taking on a lot of leadership responsibilities.
16:40 Dan Neal's got a season in the Championship.
16:42 Ballard's got a season in the Championship.
16:45 Anthony Patterson's got a season in the Championship.
16:46 So you do hope to develop new leaders, especially as players sort of come into the mid-20s and stuff like that.
16:53 But yeah, I think you have to tread carefully.
16:57 I think you have to be careful what you wish for.
17:00 And I think especially with the senior pros that have contributed for Sunderland,
17:04 you need to treat them with respect.
17:06 And I personally wouldn't like to see any of them leave.
17:10 I don't think that's sentimental.
17:12 I think that's because they can contribute on and off the field.
17:15 I mean, Danny Bath was Player of the Season last year.
17:18 Alex Pritchard, you know, promotion winner, great servant, producing really good moments.
17:24 And Lyndon Gooch has been there and done it all.
17:26 And it was nice to see them sort of get that acknowledgement from the Roka end.
17:32 But what I will say, if the club do want to go down that route and one of them is to leave,
17:37 then you'd hope it would be sooner rather than later.
17:39 Get that replacement in, get it sorted and explain it to the fans.
17:43 But yeah, I think we have to be careful because we all play the games, don't we?
17:50 We play like Football Manager and some of us will play FIFA and all of this.
17:53 And, you know, that's the name of the game in football now.
17:56 You want to buy low, sell high, buy young, sell old, all of that sort of stuff.
18:02 But there's certain things that can't be sort of measured in statistics in football.
18:07 And experience is certainly one of them.
18:11 And you do have to be very careful because you can become overwhelmed very quickly in the Championship.
18:15 Interestingly enough, I was thinking about this before we came on the podcast.
18:19 Neil and Ekwer are a partnership in midfield that I think are really blossoming.
18:23 But what lets them down is probably a little bit of inexperience.
18:27 Obviously, that's going to come.
18:29 They're sort of unfamiliar playing together as well in a two.
18:33 But yeah, would a Corey Evans in a midfield three with them really help sort of cement what those two are really good at?
18:38 Probably yes. So, yeah, you do have to be careful, I think.
18:43 Yeah, and maybe someone like Corey Evans in there, maybe we wouldn't have seen some of the midfield mistakes that have maybe led to goals this season.
18:50 You can't say for sure, but obviously, those three players that we've mentioned,
18:54 Gooch, Pritchard and Danny Batt, all very experienced players.
18:58 And the other thing as well is, although they may not be in the starting 11 right now,
19:02 you are only an injury away from if Triton's unavailable.
19:06 For example, Lyndon Gooch becomes your right back if Ballard picks up an injury, as he did last season.
19:12 Danny Batt probably comes into the side. Pritchard, as we were saying before,
19:15 I thought he was going to start the first game of the season against Ipswich.
19:17 Murray Berry went with Bellingham and now Bellingham is flourishing and has done well kind of in the last game and started the season well.
19:24 But Pritchard was a player that you could have quite easily seen starting the first game of the season and being in the side,
19:29 particularly after Ahmad went back to Man United.
19:33 So, yeah, big decisions for Sunderland to make.
19:35 And as you said, they have got to be careful because those three players probably formed a lot of the core of the dressing room last season.
19:42 And when you're bringing in a lot of players from abroad and different cultures and backgrounds and nationalities,
19:46 I think you do kind of need that strong core in the dressing room that kind of those three were a part of.
19:52 So we'll see how that kind of develops over the next two weeks in the transfer window.
19:55 Some people will be asking as well, why would you kind of let these players go for minimal fees when they've only got a year left on their contracts?
20:04 I think the thing that Sunderland have always kind of been keen to do kind of under the new regime is if a player is not playing,
20:10 they're not just going to keep them around the place for kind of the sake of it.
20:14 They want to go and let them play football.
20:16 And that's part of the reason why they can bring in younger players as well, because they will, if it comes in, it's good enough.
20:22 They will let that player move on.
20:24 So they don't want to kind of get in players way if they're not playing.
20:26 But as I said before, I think the thing is with these three that we've mentioned in Gooch, Bart and Pritchard is they are quite close to the first team set up.
20:33 And they could quite easily in a week or two be in the team if an injury happens or lack of form for any player for whatever reason.
20:41 So, yeah, we'll see how that one develops.
20:44 Also, Sunderland looking to bring players in in the final two weeks of the window.
20:48 Time is running out, but Tony Mowbray seemed quite optimistic on Saturday after the game.
20:53 Did mention Jay Stansfield from Fulham.
20:55 He said he's one of the players that Sunderland are looking at.
20:59 Also said last week that Sunderland could be looking at the loan market, which you mentioned could be.
21:04 Kind of talked about the gamble of the loan market, didn't he?
21:06 The fact that you could wait later and perhaps get a better player or do you act now and just bring someone in rather than risk missing out towards the end of the window?
21:15 So how are you kind of feeling with two weeks to go?
21:18 Sunderland, they do have one only available striker in Hamir who's not been playing.
21:25 We think it's going to be back by the end of September.
21:27 Well, that seems to be what he thinks.
21:29 Sunderland still very light up top.
21:30 But how do you kind of view the striker situation at the minute?
21:34 Yeah, I think Tony Mowbray needs help.
21:35 I think he needs additions, whether they be loan or permanent.
21:38 I would prefer that they were permanent.
21:41 You know, they have suffered a bit of bad luck.
21:44 Obviously, the Stuart injury, Maénda coming in and getting an injury in his first training session is not ideal.
21:49 But without ever having seen him play, was Maénda ready to lead the line for Sunderland in the championship?
21:56 I'm not sure. But Luis Jemir Simédo, it doesn't appear he is at the moment.
22:02 He needs to get a bit fit, to get a bit more physical and be allowed to develop.
22:07 So, you know, Jay Stansfield sounds like a really promising player.
22:12 Obviously, on loan at Exeter last season, I think.
22:14 So, looking to make the step up.
22:16 Obviously, good pedigree being at Fulham and coming through academies and stuff like that.
22:21 But I would be interested because it's been reported that that's more of a loan deal at the moment.
22:27 As you mentioned, you can get really good quality in the loan market, as we all know with Ahmad.
22:33 But the crux of that is you can become over-reliant on loans, can't you?
22:36 And getting a striker in on loan, whilst it does plug a gap for six to 12 months,
22:43 if he doesn't get recalled in January like Ellis Sims, it does plug a gap.
22:47 But it can present problems in the future, can't it?
22:49 As we've seen at Sunderland.
22:51 So, I'm more than happy with Tony Mowbray getting help at the top end of the pitch,
22:57 whether it be a loan or a permanent.
22:58 But I would like us to sign a striker who can contribute immediately on a permanent basis, to be honest,
23:07 because we haven't really owned one of those of our own since Ross Stewart, essentially.
23:13 I know they brought in Jermaine Defoe, which went completely wrong.
23:16 But since then, the permanent signings, to my mind, Maienda and Hamir,
23:21 are youth players, essentially, who are going to be around the first team and play a few minutes here and there and set up.
23:27 But, you know, looking at Bellingham and looking at Hamir, you know,
23:32 Bellingham looks ready and Hamir just doesn't yet, which is a shame.
23:36 Hopefully, he'll get there.
23:37 I actually thought his cameo against Rotherham was moderately positive, to be honest.
23:43 He almost scored, didn't he, within a minute of coming on?
23:45 Yeah, he got on the ball and it was sort of like, 'All right, OK, you've woken up a little bit.
23:50 You've got the ball, you've turned.'
23:51 And it was a really good shot, actually.
23:53 A bit more accuracy and it could have gone in.
23:55 There was plenty of power and that seemed to sort of liven him up a little bit.
23:59 But I just thought after that, he did look a little lost again.
24:05 I did think his cameo was promising and perhaps he was trying to do a bit more of what's expected.
24:10 But it's just little things like learning when to run, when to press.
24:14 He seems a bit disjointed at the moment, which you would expect as a young player coming over.
24:19 He's played for Benfica B and by all accounts, wasn't a starter for them at the end of last season
24:28 because they knew he was going to be leaving the club.
24:29 So, it's going to take him a while.
24:33 He scored a couple in pre-season, which perhaps made us think that he was going to have a greater impact than he is.
24:40 But having seen him in league games, it's pretty obvious that it's going to take him a while.
24:44 And that's fine, absolutely fine.
24:48 We expect that with young players.
24:49 But then I think if that's going to be the situation with Hamir and Maienda, you would assume when he gets fit,
24:55 then you have to sign someone who can contribute and start games, I think.
25:01 It's a difficult one for Hamir, isn't it?
25:02 Because I was at the end of 21's game the other day where he actually dropped down into that game and played.
25:07 And to be honest with you, he struggled.
25:08 He struggled to get involved in the game.
25:10 And Mowbray has mentioned a few times in press conference, quite a lot actually, that he's struggled with the physicality, Hamir.
25:16 He's brought that up kind of a few times.
25:18 They struggled with the kind of demands to press and what you've got to do in the championship
25:24 and what's on the require of a striker.
25:26 And as you mentioned, he's been playing for Benfica's B team.
25:29 And it seems to be it's a big step up to then coming into a championship game and what he's been asked to do.
25:34 So, Mowbray obviously feels that it's better at the minute putting Bradley Deck in there,
25:38 even if he's going to drop a bit deeper, playing Bellingham further forward with the athleticism that he brings,
25:43 even though he's only 17, and that it's better for now just to kind of protect Hamir.
25:49 You could maybe argue how has Sunderland managed kind of Hamir at the minute?
25:52 Have they managed him correctly in kind of the last few weeks, kind of taking him out of the firing line at Preston and then putting him in for the 21's?
25:59 Kind of not sure what your thoughts are on that.
26:01 Do you think Sunderland have managed him well or do you think that was a good decision to kind of take him out and put him in with the 21's?
26:07 I think it was probably a good decision to take him out because I feel like he would have been on a bit of a hide and often,
26:15 and, you know, players can quickly get disheartened.
26:19 And it's a big stage he's playing on with, you know, 40,000 expectant fans.
26:24 And, you know, they can see, we can see that perhaps he just isn't quite ready yet.
26:30 And as I say, there's nothing wrong with that at all.
26:33 But then just don't play him for the sake of it, I think is the key.
26:36 And there may be a little bit of a message, a message from Tony Mowbray to those above him as well, that, you know, you have got us this striker, thank you,
26:45 but he's not quite ready.
26:47 I've started him in a game. It hasn't worked.
26:50 So he's dropped to the under 21's.
26:52 And as you say, he struggled there as well.
26:55 So we clearly need help.
26:57 So I think in terms of him here personally, I think they've handled it fairly well.
27:01 But I just wonder if there's a little element of Mowbray trying to manage up a little bit as well there.
27:07 Yeah, Dak obviously is a player he trusts very much as well, even though he's not playing his natural position as a false nine.
27:13 But obviously, he's a player that Mowbray likes a lot and knows what he's kind of capable of from that time at Blackburn.
27:19 But just to finish, we are going to kind of just touch on some reports that came out yesterday on kind of Sunday.
27:25 More reports that came from Football Insider that Tony Mowbray is potentially fighting for his job kind of follows on from the reports that we had at the end of last season.
27:36 They then kind of re-emerged after the game at Luton, the playoff semi-final.
27:41 And these kind of reports have never really been put to bed, have they, about Tony Mowbray's future?
27:46 No one from the club has kind of come out and said, you know, he's definitely kind of here for the long term or whatever that may be.
27:54 He's still got a year left on his contract at Sunderland.
27:57 We know that he is very much the head coach, that he's not in charge of transfers, but he is very much involved with kind of the discussions around transfers.
28:05 Obviously, he'll have had a big say in bringing in someone like Bradley Dak, for example, who he worked with at Blackburn.
28:11 But just kind of what are your thoughts, James, on this situation that has kind of lingered on from last season, still a bit of uncertainty around Mowbray's kind of future at the club?
28:22 Yeah, I think it's interesting.
28:23 I think there's probably two parts to it.
28:25 We said in the podcast last week and during the summer that the club missed a couple of good opportunities to put the Tony Mowbray story to bed.
28:36 They should have done it, in my opinion.
28:38 You know, there were links to Italian coaches and whatnot, and, you know, there was getting a lot of traction on social media.
28:44 He's got another job, by the way, hasn't he?
28:46 Well, exactly. He's no longer on the market.
28:49 So there was a lot of big hitters tweeting about this story.
28:51 So there was clearly something there.
28:54 You know, all clubs have contingency plans.
28:56 All clubs are looking to the future.
28:57 No issue with that at all.
29:00 But the way that was handled in the summer perhaps has unsettled things a little bit, as Phil, our colleague, has alluded to.
29:09 But I think in regards to the talk that came after Rotherham, it just felt like a bit...
29:15 And I'm not trying to talk down anybody's reporting here at all, but it just felt like a bit of an easy story.
29:21 You know, Sunderland, it felt like the same sort of story would have been written had Sunderland lost or was sort of ready to be written,
29:29 had Sunderland lost that game against Rotherham.
29:31 It would be the story to write that Mowbray was under serious pressure and that everybody at the club was considering his job.
29:38 I think, again, as Phil's touched on and other people like Nick Barnes have touched on,
29:43 there is a degree of sort of unsettlement at the club, with it being a transfer window down a little bit.
29:53 But for me, I don't...
29:55 My gut instinct says that there's no immediate danger of Tony Mowbray fighting for his job or whatever the term was he's got,
30:02 you know, a year essentially left on his contract, which sees him through to next summer.
30:07 Then the club will probably evaluate again.
30:09 I think he's done a...
30:10 Well, he did a brilliant job last season,
30:12 no doubt about that, taking over from Alex Neil under tough circumstances,
30:16 getting Sunderland to the playoffs, which we forget really that nobody expected that, really.
30:21 There was a couple of pundits, actually.
30:23 I think Lee Hendry said that Sunderland would make the top six.
30:26 And at the beginning of the season, we all laughed.
30:28 We all said, 'Not a chance.'
30:30 But he got us there.
30:31 He deserves credit for that.
30:34 I've spoken to people around the club who say that his door is always open about any issue,
30:42 which is not how a typical head coach tends to work these days.
30:49 I think it's pretty rare.
30:50 You're looking at people like Sean Dyche and Tony Mowbray,
30:52 those sort of types of managers that really care about the person as well.
30:58 So he's highly thought of.
30:59 Players like Patrick Roberts-Lygan, obviously Bradley Dack.
31:04 A massive fan of his.
31:05 And yeah, he's worked wonders at Sunderland, really.
31:08 So I think in terms of his job being under threat at the moment, I don't see that.
31:13 You could have made the argument that it was under threat had he lost against Rotherham.
31:18 But even then, I think it would have taken another couple of weeks of really poor results for a change to have been considered.
31:26 But you know, the saying goes that you're only a couple of bad results away in football.
31:31 And that is probably true, but let's not be dramatic about this.
31:36 Sunderland lost 2-1 at Ipswich Town.
31:38 Could have got something out of that game.
31:40 They lost 2-1 to Preston.
31:43 Arguably could have got something out of that game.
31:46 The beat Rotherham came from behind and were good value for that win.
31:51 It's not like Sunderland have been terrible, turning in awful performances.
31:55 Has there been things that could have been improved on?
31:57 Yes, absolutely.
32:00 But I don't think it's right that people are suggesting that Tony Mowbray is fighting for his job after the opening three games.
32:06 Possibly a little disingenuous as well.
32:08 And I think the limitations on Sunderland's squad at the moment, which are well documented and we've just talked about, would suggest that, you know,
32:16 the club as a whole have a responsibility, not just Tony Mowbray.
32:20 Yes, results come in his remit.
32:22 But, you know, at the end of the day, had he had a fit senior striker over the age of 19 or 20 for the Preston and Ipswich games, Sunderland might have won.
32:34 If would have had another Sims or a Ross Stewart, something like that.
32:38 I think of the Bristol City game away last season where Sims and Stewart scored, you know, if he'd have had, under Alex Neil, if he'd have had those players against Ipswich and Preston, it could have been a different story.
32:51 So I think it's collective responsibility at the club regarding those poor results in the championship to begin with.
32:58 But I don't know how you see it, Joe, but my sort of inner alarm bells weren't ringing at the performances.
33:05 Yes, things could have been improved, but it wasn't like Sunderland were utterly horrendous.
33:10 No, I think you're right. I think the two games against Ipswich and Preston, they could have easily won both of those games.
33:16 The Ipswich game, I thought they dominated for the first half an hour and then the sucker punch right before half time really knocked their confidence and they had a difficult spell at the start of the second half.
33:25 Preston was similar as well.
33:26 They were the better side in the first half, went a little bit off it in the second half and that proved costly.
33:31 But I didn't come away from those two games thinking Sunderland are in trouble here.
33:35 I thought if you put a fit Ross Stewart in that side, it's a completely different team.
33:40 If you get Bradley Dack up to speed and Mowbray's mentioned this as well.
33:43 If you put Stewart and Dack in at the top end of that team, I think you've got a very, very good side there that you'd expect to challenge for the playoffs.
33:50 And that's because they were in the playoffs last season, as you said, massively overachieved.
33:54 I don't think anyone at the start of the season, we didn't see Sunderland getting into the playoffs this time last year.
34:01 And the fact that they've done that has massively kind of increased expectations for this season because people are thinking, well, Sunderland should be in the playoffs again.
34:09 Whereas if they'd have come 17th last season, for example, you'd be maybe looking at this season, looking for a top half finish.
34:15 So the job that Mowbray did last season has increased expectations.
34:19 That's put more pressure on him.
34:22 But also you've got to look at the limitations as well.
34:25 He's had with, as you said, not very much up front to play with.
34:29 If Ross Stewart had been in that team, it could have been a completely different story.
34:32 So I think you're right in terms of alarm bells certainly weren't ringing after those first two games.
34:37 It was big for them to get the win over Rotherham to relieve that pressure.
34:41 And hopefully now they can kick on away at Coventry this weekend.
34:45 I think with Mowbray as well, I think it's a similar story in a way to sort of Gooch, Barr and Pritchard.
34:53 I don't think Kiril Uluodiris, Christian Speakman, Sunderland as a whole should ever stop trying to move forward and push the club forward and advance and get up the table, get to the Premier League, get as far as they can.
35:05 By all means do that. That's what Sunderland fans want.
35:09 That's certainly what I want as a journalist.
35:11 I want to cover this club as far as it can go.
35:14 I want to be here for the good times.
35:15 But you do have to respect people and what they've done for the club.
35:19 And I think Mowbray, Pritchard, Gooch and Bath have done a lot for Sunderland.
35:24 And you do have to be careful what you wish for.
35:26 Sometimes progress for the sake of progress can mean you accelerate a little too quickly.
35:31 And then, you know, everyone's looking in six to 12 months' time going, you know, who's going to get us through this really difficult time?
35:38 And the likes of Mowbray, Pritchard, Gooch and Bath are somewhere else.
35:43 So, yeah, I think caution would be my sort of message.
35:48 As you touched on as well, I think all the players really have a lot of respect for Murray Bridges.
35:52 He says his door's always open.
35:54 They always speak very positively of him.
35:56 And he's very honest in press conferences, isn't he, with people like Bath and Pritchard and Gooch,
36:02 who could potentially take that the wrong way.
36:04 But I think he's also honest with them behind the scenes.
36:07 He's just a nice, genuine bloke, as you say.
36:10 I don't really recall anybody saying much of a bad word about him in football,
36:16 other than Roy Keane in a documentary about the Sunderland promotion season.
36:20 But that was sort of unrelated anyway.
36:22 Anyway, a bit of a tangent.
36:23 But yeah, like journalists or players, I'm sure that there will be some somewhere.
36:29 But I've never heard anything but good things about him in terms of people's dealings with him.
36:35 Well, it's another big game for them this weekend.
36:37 The tough one as well away at Coventry, who were obviously in the playoff final last season.
36:42 So we'll have more build up to that game over on the SAFC section of the Sunderland Echo website.
36:48 Mo Ribery will be speaking to the media later in the week ahead of that game at the CBS Arena.
36:54 And you can find more analysis, transfer news and all the latest things that are going on at the Stadium of Light over on the Echo websites.
37:02 This has been another episode of the RAW podcast.
37:05 Thanks a lot for joining us and we'll be back very soon.
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