On the latest episode of The Breakdown, Nicholas Britell takes Rolling Stone through his process of creating the soundscape for Succession's fourth and final season
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00:00 these four chords that sort of create kind of the musical world of
00:05 succession. These four chords were the C minor that sort of...
00:10 Those four chords, you know. Hi, I'm Nicholas Bertil. I'm a composer of
00:14 succession and this is a breakdown.
00:18 As far as how I approached the initial like scope of the sound in season four, I
00:29 knew that I wanted there to be quite a bit of an orchestral palette. I also felt
00:35 that because of the potential wide scope of emotion that was gonna happen in
00:40 season four, going into season four I knew Logan was going to die in episode
00:44 three. That was one of the things I knew. I knew about this sort of ever
00:48 increasingly painful complicated relationship between Tom and Shiv, for
00:51 example. There were certain shapes that I knew were going to be happening through
00:55 the season, but there were also things I didn't know. Like I actually didn't know
00:58 how the season would end until pretty late and that was a conscious decision I
01:02 didn't want to know. I wanted to feel the sort of reveal the way an audience would,
01:07 which I think helps me hopefully to get a sense of like as an audience member
01:14 what is the show actually presenting and then how do I want musically to either
01:19 enhance that or perhaps go on counterpoint to that, you know. So it's if
01:23 I have an immediate reaction to something as opposed to knowing it in
01:27 advance I think it helps me to have a more instinctive musical approach to
01:33 that, you know. Some of the music for Logan's death I started writing actually
01:40 from learning that Logan was going to die in episode three and that's something
01:43 that I've done in every season. I start writing from when I talked to Jesse for
01:48 the first time about what might happen and that's one of the great things. Like
01:50 he's such a incredible, not just supportive and brilliant collaborator,
01:56 but he really he has such deep insights into what he's doing and he thinks so
02:01 deeply about the series obviously and I remember talking to him about that and
02:06 immediately having a sense that I wanted there to be some sort of elegy kind of a
02:12 piece. Something that really felt like it was a sort of remembrance of the dead
02:16 and yet at the same time it's obviously the remembrance of an incredibly
02:19 complicated person. So it had to have this, you know, I think on the one hand
02:24 there's a sense of the point of view of the family. So you're thinking of the
02:28 actual emotion of losing your father, you know, and what that might feel like.
02:31 But on the other hand it's the objective perspective of the world looking at this
02:35 and this is an incredibly complicated legacy that he's leaving the world. So I
02:40 think, you know, in some of those elegy pieces that I wrote before actually
02:45 seeing some of the footage there's a lot of, there's I think hopefully a deeper
02:50 sense of emotion. But at the same time there's quite a bit of dissonance within
02:55 the pieces where the melodies and the melodic lines kind of hit each other and
03:00 you know kind of create what might seem like a wrong note sometimes in a sense.
03:04 And I think I've often, I've often found just personally as a, you know, as a
03:11 musician but also just as a music lover that when I hear things like that happen
03:15 I respond a certain way and I think to me it's almost like you, it's almost like
03:18 you wince sometimes a little bit, you know. And I think that's important for
03:22 Logan because we're not, I'm not trying to create a sense of the grandeur of a
03:29 great man, you know. I'm trying to create the sense of loss, of a family's loss, but
03:33 also I think the reality of his legacy is as important as the family's loss, you
03:41 know, and the truth of his legacy which is obviously, you know, a dark one. I am
03:45 inspired by all the characters when I'm writing the music but I often don't
03:50 really write themes for characters because I feel that to me what really
03:57 impacts me musically is the relationships between the characters in
04:01 a sort of dynamic way. If you hear a theme when you see a character, you know,
04:06 it's sort of this sort of one-to-one relationship like just because someone's
04:09 in front of you you're hearing a theme. I'm not always sure that that is additive
04:14 to you, to your experience because you already see the person, you know. And you
04:18 know what, there's that kind of that old adage of like the hat on a hat, you
04:22 know. You don't put a hat on a hat. And so I think often I'm trying to figure out
04:27 the relationships between characters or even at times going in counterpoint to
04:32 what you're seeing. So with the characters, like with the piece I was
04:36 mentioning for Logan's death, you know, that piece actually exists as part of
04:40 the kind of succession universe is the way I think about it for season four. And
04:44 you hear it at times, you know, you hear it certainly there's a version of a
04:49 piece of that that you hear, you know, let's say after Logan dies, you know,
04:53 certainly the end credits of that episode, episode three, you hear a version
04:56 of this. But at the same time there's a version of that piece that you actually
05:00 hear while Tom and Shiv are, you know, in their bedroom, you know, saying we gave it
05:06 a go, you know, is this the end of their relationship. So there's almost a sense
05:09 that that piece perhaps represents like endings of things, you know, and it's not
05:14 necessarily that it's about Logan, although at that moment it is about
05:20 Logan when it happens. So I think in general for succession that's something
05:23 that I've done a lot. There are these sort of overarching kind of themes that
05:26 almost exist like at times like at a 30,000 foot view. They're sort of about
05:32 the world of succession and then at any one moment they're sort of about certain
05:37 characters, but the music is constantly evolving over the seasons and the
05:41 characters are constantly evolving and you're hearing in general ideas that are
05:46 changed versions, but there is hopefully a sense of the through line that is
05:52 tying you back to where you started, you know. So I think above all, even outside
05:56 of the idea of character development, it's really about this sort of long-term
06:00 kind of like development of these characters' lives and the music is also
06:05 having this sort of, it's just changing over time too, you know. So there's this
06:09 kind of parallel evolution of things that every season I kind of go out of my
06:13 way to like write a lot of totally new ideas and then I also try to write ideas
06:19 which I feel are, you know, this sort of ever-increasing variation on
06:23 certain themes. Starting in season one there were these chords, I can show
06:29 how it evolved a little bit, there are these four chords that sort of
06:32 create kind of the musical world of succession. These four chords were in
06:38 C minor, this sort of...
06:41 those four chords, you know, and those four chords, that progression is actually a
06:46 progression that was used extensively in the classical era and it would sometimes
06:50 occur, perhaps often occur, at sort of a culminating moment of a movement or a
06:55 piece that way and there was something about this feeling of kind of
06:59 like culminating that I really was drawn to early on in the show, this sort of the
07:04 gravitas of that sort of like dark culmination and that, those chords really
07:11 kind of form the basis of succession in a sense and so each season I'm taking
07:16 those chords and putting them in different places and taking them to new
07:19 places. So season four actually changed a lot into, I go to F minor, so we're...
07:24 this is kind of the, a lot of the universe of season four is in F up here
07:32 and there's a progression that I took which felt like it could go from those
07:37 first four chords into a new place and potentially provide almost like a sense
07:42 of ending but also, you know, endings are also beginnings, so a sense of like what
07:48 is the future, like what comes after this, you know, and so you know you're sort of
07:52 in this and then it goes to this was really the new season four version was
07:58 this...
08:16 So that was the kind of new idea and so that piece for example, those chords,
08:21 that's actually the chords that underlie the very last piece in the whole season
08:26 actually where we see, you know, I don't know how many spoilers we can do here
08:31 but the last piece basically where we see Kendall, you know, walking in lower
08:35 Manhattan then and in season one when we, you know, at the end actually I think it's
08:40 really the end of the pilot of season one, we hear this piece...
08:45 [Music]
09:01 This idea, this andante con moto of what that, you know, this which generally to
09:07 me sort of felt like it was it would occur sort of potentially towards the
09:11 ends of episodes as a culminating kind of feeling itself or it happened to
09:15 coincide often with Kendall, that was something that just felt like a sort of
09:20 Kendall move in a way, so the end of season four it's up here in F minor...
09:25 [Music]
09:41 And then it goes to those chords...
09:43 [Music]
09:59 So that's kind of how that evolved into that and going back to Tom and
10:04 Shiv, so you see how that those chords sort of are this like next step in
10:08 the succession chords life in a way and with Tom and Shiv there was a version
10:13 when like the sort of we gave it a go kind of idea, you know, this...
10:17 [Music]
10:38 That kind of an idea, you know, and basically the what I then do with that
10:44 piece is I start bringing in different counterpoint from the main title theme
10:49 on top of this new progression, so in different parts of season four you'll
10:54 hear this sort of, this sort of, this sort of, you know...
10:56 [Music]
11:15 And so for example like you'll hear this sort of, you know, like up here I think I
11:19 do in Kendall's, you know, at the end of the...
11:22 [Music]
11:34 This is the other, this, this sort of...
11:37 [Music]
11:54 You hear the...
11:55 [Music]
12:03 So that kind of, you know, so these are all the different ways where it can kind
12:05 of wind back around and that was something that I even started doing I
12:09 think in season two, you know, the pieces sort of have a
12:13 memory of where they've been sometimes, there's a rondo in F minor
12:19 from season two, this piece...
12:22 [Music]
12:47 This piece, you know, and then what it does is it sort of...
12:50 [Music]
13:15 starts to wind around back...
13:25 like it knows the theme somehow...
13:28 [Music]
13:48 So you see it's sort of like the piece like knows what it's a part of in a
13:53 sense, yeah. So a lot of the music is kind of like
13:55 having a dialogue with itself almost, where it's sort of like
13:59 it like knows the family and it knows where it's been but it's also trying to
14:03 go somewhere new and with Tom and Shiv that chord
14:06 progression, with Logan that same kind of, and then
14:10 seeing it with Kendall. So a lot of these ideas exist in different
14:13 variations with different characters but perhaps
14:16 there's actually a connection between all of them which there
14:18 certainly is, you know. So that was one of the particular ones.
14:23 Another one with Tom and Shiv that I imagined was this thing which I call
14:27 l'amantoso, which is this progression here where it
14:30 goes... it's actually, if you listen closely, it's
14:33 actually the chords of the the main theme, these...
14:39 but in a totally different way. So this piece, the l'amantoso, is this,
14:44 the same chords but just...
15:01 the same exact chords, just kind of different, you know.
15:19 So that's something that you hear, I think you hear that for the first time
15:23 in the first episode, right after they've bought, right after
15:29 they've won the bid for Pierce and Shiv is on her way home and you hear
15:36 this kind of new... it's like a lament, you know, and there's a sort of
15:44 melody that kind of goes with it. There's this sort of, you know...
16:02 There's a whole sort of set of new kind of windy melodies that kind of come
16:06 around with that. So each piece hopefully feels like
16:09 it's this kind of ever-evolving journey
16:14 through this family's life in that way. You know, I remember in the first season
16:19 I very consciously used that idea, and I would repeat it at times,
16:23 as an almost kind of maniacal reminder of this family, you know. There was a very
16:28 conscious choice that this should feel like it's this almost sort of devilish
16:31 thing, you know. But it's interesting, each season
16:34 it's evolved so much where I, for me, by the time we're hearing some
16:38 of these things, it just feels sad to me. It feels like
16:42 this, you know, I think the truth of the show is this is a very sad existence
16:49 they're in. They have all the every worldly comfort, you know, and yet they're
16:53 totally bereft and lost, you know. And the things that they have right in front of
16:58 them they don't even see, you know, and they lose, you know. So
17:01 I think to me by the end of season four that's how
17:04 some of those, you know, echoes of that idea feel for me. The essence of
17:11 of this work is this collaboration. If it's on a film, it's with the
17:16 director. If it's television, you know, really I'm
17:19 almost entirely working with Jesse, you know, our showrunner.
17:23 And it's been such a pleasure and such an honor to work with him. He's
17:26 just got such insights into this, and
17:30 at the same time I think there's a real kind of
17:33 trust that we have for each other, you know. I think he really,
17:37 in such a wonderful way, has kind of trusted me with
17:41 just going off and writing all this music.
17:44 And then he's, you know, let me kind of do my thing in a way with that. And at
17:50 the same time I totally trust him where as we're going through different parts
17:54 of the show, depending on what his instincts are, you
17:57 know, we'll go in a whole other place. And that
18:00 happens every single episode, you know. There's places where
18:03 I remember, for example, in the funeral episode in episode nine,
18:07 I remember there was a very particular piece.
18:11 Right as the sort of funeral caravan is on their way to the cemetery,
18:17 I remember I had a piece of music there and Jesse had these really interesting
18:21 notes of how to evolve that piece or what he wanted
18:23 dramatically to happen there. And I remember I created a totally new piece
18:27 that actually is one of my favorite pieces I did
18:30 for the show there. And I said to him, I was like, this is a direct
18:33 result of us talking, you know, without that conversation
18:36 that would never have happened. So that's what I love about the process, you know.
18:39 It's not, obviously I like writing music, but I
18:43 really love this kind of creative cauldron that we find ourselves
18:47 in where we get to, you know, sort of experiment and try
18:51 things together and see what feels right and push it
18:55 until it really feels like it's right for the show.
18:57 It's a mixture of the chords from the main theme in F. And actually I
19:04 think it's an A minor there. I think I was...
19:07 So this is going on...
19:10 with strings with a whole orchestra. That's going on. And then on top of it is
19:19 actually the Lamentoso piece in A minor
19:26 for a full string orchestra. So on top of this
19:30 is going...
19:33 you know...
19:38 So that's all, you know, so it's sort of impossible to play it all.
19:50 You know, it's like I can sort of figure out, but basically it's this, it's almost
19:53 like sort of two whole orchestral concepts at
19:56 the same time. And that was the interesting thing because
19:58 initially I had just put in A minor this sort of
20:01 with the strings going...
20:04 I had done this sort of thing. And then Jesse said, you know, we really need a
20:20 sense of what just what Kendall and Hugo were just
20:23 talking about. This idea of what the next step was here.
20:29 And I felt like by bringing in the drama of those sort of
20:33 Logan kind of feeling, you know,
20:37 you know, so you're feeling that the almost season one
20:41 of all of this on top of it. And so that was kind of how that
20:45 that came together. Yeah, so it doesn't really sound like what I just did. It
20:48 sounds much better in the show. The whole last third of episode 10,
20:54 a lot of work went into that of figuring out all the particular moments
20:59 because there are so many different moments of pain
21:02 and of talk about culminations, you know.
21:06 And I think a lot of the end of episode 10 for me is really about like we talked
21:09 about this feeling of endings, you know, and to me that,
21:13 you know, you just get a sense of like what, where possibly is their
21:17 relationship, is all of their relationship going after this, you know.
21:21 That last piece is actually something where interestingly
21:24 I wrote that piece and I remember showing Jesse some of these early
21:28 ideas that I was having and this one piece that I'd written I
21:33 felt this is, this could really be the ending. I didn't even know how the
21:36 show ended, you know, up until recently. But at that time it felt like
21:40 emotionally if there was an ending to this show it could be
21:44 this, you know, like a sense of ending but also a sense of the future
21:49 somehow. And I played all these different pieces and I played him that piece
21:54 and I remember Jesse immediately said, "I think that might be how the show ends."
21:58 So that was just a wonderful serendipity and I remember when they
22:02 finished editing it he called and he said, you know,
22:05 "I want you to watch the final episode." And then he said, "By the way,
22:09 I really think that piece actually can work at the end." He was,
22:12 but he's so, he's so kind and he basically said, you know, "Of course,
22:16 let me know what you think if you don't think so." But I remember watching it and
22:19 putting that piece there and being like, "No, that feels totally right." So
22:22 that piece is the piece that takes us from
22:26 the conference room, the board room, where they're signing all the papers
22:31 through Tom and Shiv in the car, takes us all the way through Kendall and all the
22:35 way to the final, right up to the moment of the credits
22:38 before the choir begins. And so that's one huge piece which
22:42 is that final, you know, that is the, that is that final version of that,
22:47 what I was sort of calling that Kendall culminating kind of piece, you know, this
22:50 one, this...
22:55 this...
22:57 You know, so that piece keeps going and then it ends with that sort of...
23:25 That's the kind of final ending there, yeah. So, but that is that final sort of
23:29 evolution of that piece. The first version in season one where it's
23:35 just, you know, and then season two, it actually, I didn't
23:39 play it before, but season two goes into this...
23:43 That's the season two version.
23:51 [Music]
23:55 That's where it goes in season two, and then in season three there's a new
24:10 version where it does this sort of, it goes, you know, and then it goes...
24:17 [Music]
24:21 [Music]
24:25 [Music]
24:35 [Music]
24:45 [Music]
24:49 So that's the season three, and then the season four.
25:06 [Music]
25:07 Which really to me feels very different. I think season, season two has more, has
25:11 this sort of melancholy turn. Season three is almost more action, you
25:16 know, you hear that piece, for example, as the FBI is raiding Waystar, as an
25:21 example, you know. But season four to me really has this
25:24 sense of kind of, you know, I don't want to say hope, but
25:27 there's a sense of the future, of just a, just like a change, you know,
25:32 something has happened and we're going somewhere else, you know. So that's those
25:36 chords to me that sort of...
25:40 You hear this also in the church.
25:46 [Music]
25:50 [Music]
25:54 [Music]
25:58 [Music]
26:02 [Music]
26:06 So those are sort of how it
26:10 feels like an ending to me. I think, you know,
26:13 my goal above all is that the music can feel
26:17 like it is sort of a part of the fabric of the show,
26:23 but inside the show in a way. So it's never forcing you to feel a certain way.
26:28 Hopefully it's just, you know, widening the dimensions of
26:31 what's already incredible in the acting and the writing and all of the
26:35 performances and everything about the show.
26:38 That's always my number one goal is, you know,
26:42 sort of learning from the show as we go and seeing
26:45 what's possible and experimenting. And I really view so much of working on these
26:50 projects as like it's like the show is teaching you what it needs, you
26:54 know, and you're trying to learn and study,
26:56 you know, what does it need? What should it feel like, you know?
27:00 But then I think now that this show is over,
27:04 I certainly hope that people can, you know,
27:08 perhaps take their own journey with the music,
27:12 you know, as we all go forward, you know. And I think one of my
27:15 dreams for a lot of the music that I write is that it can have its own,
27:20 you know, integrity of its own, you know,
27:23 sense of itself outside of a project. I think it's important.
27:27 And that's something I think about with writing music for everything, you know.
27:30 It's like you want it to work inside the world of
27:33 the project, but I think it's also important that the music is able to kind
27:36 of stand on its own, hopefully. And I think if it can do that, I
27:40 think it then also works even better inside a project, you know.
27:44 There's something about music having its own internal
27:47 character, I think, that, you know, if it can,
27:51 you know, stand on its own somehow, that's sort of
27:54 better somehow aesthetically in both ways.
27:58 But my goal above all is always for it to be right inside
28:02 the project, you know. So yeah, I hope people keep enjoying the music. I hope,
28:07 I'm certainly excited for it to be out there. And
28:11 yeah, I've never written this much
28:15 music or lived with a project for this long,
28:18 you know, in a sense. I mean, I've been writing music sort of,
28:21 you know, on a relatively consistent basis on this project
28:25 for almost seven years. So, you know, and I think I've never
28:32 had something where, you know, we're coming back in many
28:36 different seasons and having to sort of re-approach an idea
28:40 and say to myself, you know, not only where is the show going, but where
28:44 musically are we going, and figure out a way to have it
28:47 feel new and do new things, but also have it maintain a link,
28:51 you know, because you don't want to also sever your connection to the past
28:55 either. I think it's important to feel that
28:58 the connection of where we came from in the music. So that was a real,
29:01 that was really the biggest challenge, I think, in some sense,
29:04 was just constantly creating this tapestry over such a long period of time,
29:07 over so many episodes, and trying to hopefully have it feel like
29:11 it's all one big connective tissue, even though it's actually this sort of
29:16 sprawling work that I've worked on for, you
29:19 know, I mean, I think it was 2015 when I first found out about the
29:23 show, and it was 2016 when I first, when I went to the pilot set,
29:29 and then met with Jesse for the first time,
29:32 so, and it's 2023 now, so it's been a while,
29:36 it's been a while, and I've loved every moment of it.
29:39 [Music]