The political fortunes of both former Prime Minister Imran Khan and his Pakistan Tehreek-E-Insaf party or PTI hang in the balance following his conviction on graft charges and incarceration. The guilty verdict automatically triggers Khan’s disqualification from seeking public office for the next five years, ruling out his contesting the coming general election.
Other than appealing to higher courts to overturn the verdict, the party’s core committee is preparing behind the scenes for the eventuality that the former prime minister is not granted relief even by the Supreme Court and looking at life without the charismatic Khan at the helm.
Raoof Hasan, the PTI’s information secretary who spoke to Mayank Chhaya Reports from Islamabad, cast serious doubts about the trial court order by questioning how it was that a 30-page order was drafted and pronounced in just about half an hour.
Other than appealing to higher courts to overturn the verdict, the party’s core committee is preparing behind the scenes for the eventuality that the former prime minister is not granted relief even by the Supreme Court and looking at life without the charismatic Khan at the helm.
Raoof Hasan, the PTI’s information secretary who spoke to Mayank Chhaya Reports from Islamabad, cast serious doubts about the trial court order by questioning how it was that a 30-page order was drafted and pronounced in just about half an hour.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00 (dramatic music)
00:02 (dramatic music)
00:05 (dramatic music)
00:08 (dramatic music)
00:36 - Political fortunes of both former Prime Minister
00:39 Imran Khan and his Pakistan Tehrik-e-Insaf Party,
00:44 or the PTI, hang in the balance following his conviction
00:48 on graft charges and subsequent incarceration.
00:52 However, his party leaders and lawyers are hopeful
00:57 of vacating his conviction and releasing him
01:00 after they filed a petition challenging the verdict
01:03 in the Islamabad High Court today.
01:06 A trial court in Islamabad which sentenced Khan
01:10 to three years in prison on August 5th
01:12 said in its 30-page order, and I quote,
01:16 "He cheated while providing information about gifts
01:19 he obtained from Tosha Khanna,
01:21 which later proved to be false and inaccurate.
01:24 His dishonesty has been established beyond doubt," unquote.
01:28 Tosha Khanna is the custodian of all state gifts.
01:32 Rauf Hassan, the PTI's information secretary,
01:36 has cast serious doubts about the order
01:38 by questioning how it was that a 30-page order
01:42 was drafted and pronounced in just about half an hour.
01:46 The guilty verdict automatically triggers
01:48 Khan's disqualification from seeking public office
01:51 for the next five years.
01:53 If his sentence is upheld by the Islamabad High Court,
01:57 the PTI plans to go to the country's Supreme Court.
02:01 Behind the scenes, though,
02:02 the party's core committee is preparing
02:05 for the eventuality that the former prime minister
02:08 is not granted relief even by the Supreme Court
02:12 and looking at life without the charismatic Khan
02:15 at the helm.
02:16 Rauf Hassan spoke to my entire reports from Islamabad.
02:20 - As you can see, I had reserved this
02:25 for Mr. Khan's appearance,
02:26 but I don't know if you can see this.
02:30 - Oh, oh, lovely, lovely, lovely.
02:35 - Alas, it's not to be.
02:37 - No, it will be, it will be.
02:40 He's not going to be there for long.
02:42 We'll get him out.
02:43 - Okay.
02:44 - Let's do it.
02:46 - Let me begin, yeah.
02:47 - Thank you, sir.
02:49 - I heard in your interview just now
02:53 that the order that was passed by the court
02:57 for Mr. Khan's conviction was essentially wrapped up
03:02 in about 30 minutes.
03:04 And the talk in Pakistan is that it was already written
03:08 before anything happened.
03:10 What's your sense?
03:11 Do you think this was just a sort of a kangaroo
03:16 court-like thing?
03:17 - Well, may I, let me ask you just one simple question.
03:22 Can you draft 30 pages in about 30 minutes?
03:25 - Not a verdict, no.
03:27 - So that is exactly what happened.
03:30 He closed proceedings at three, at 12
03:33 and the judgment was out at 3.30, at 12.30.
03:38 - But that's...
03:41 - For 30 minutes.
03:43 - That's a damning thing.
03:44 So is it your sense that it may have come
03:47 from political bosses?
03:50 - No, the way the entire case was conducted,
03:52 basically, of course, we were certain about the fact
03:55 that this is the judgment, this is the verdict
03:57 that would come out ultimately, and we proved to be right.
04:01 And most importantly, it was Khan himself
04:03 and who said, well, it has been predicted.
04:06 In one of my tweets, I called it a premeditated
04:08 hatchet job.
04:09 That is the best description that one could come up with.
04:11 It's a hatchet job, basically.
04:13 - Since we're talking about the Doshakhana case,
04:17 lay out for my viewers some details
04:20 because there's a lot of confusion
04:22 about whether he bought those gifts at a discount,
04:26 whether he did not buy it.
04:27 What exactly is the position that Mr. Khan has taken on it?
04:32 - Well, I'll take a few minutes to explain it.
04:34 Basically, see, it is legal to get gifts from Doshakhana.
04:39 When Khan became the prime minister,
04:43 the going price was 20% of the evaluated price, right?
04:48 If you pay 20% of the evaluated price,
04:51 then the gift is yours.
04:53 Khan, first and foremost, increased it to 40%.
04:56 So instead of 20%, he said, you will have to pay 40%.
05:00 Now you can keep gifts to yourself,
05:02 but certain gifts are not permissible to be taken away,
05:05 including the cars.
05:07 You cannot take cars away.
05:09 When they are gifted to any dignitary,
05:12 they immediately go to the national car pool
05:14 and then they are used for whatever purpose
05:17 they are appropriate for.
05:19 So Khan did, yes, did take certain gifts,
05:22 after payment of 40% of the evaluated price.
05:25 And part of the money, in fact,
05:28 most of the money was invested in building
05:30 about six kilometer long road in the area.
05:34 It's a public road in the area where he lives,
05:37 which is called Benigalai in Islamabad.
05:39 So all that money that he made
05:41 was invested in building that road.
05:42 Six, in fact, it's a little more than six kilometers.
05:46 So where is the problem?
05:47 The problem is that there are two statements
05:51 that you have to give.
05:52 One statement is given, it's for tax purposes,
05:55 it goes to the Federal Board of Revenue in Pakistan,
05:58 in which he mentioned that, yes, he had taken that money
06:02 and this is the kind of profit that he earned
06:04 and he paid tax on that.
06:05 The other statement goes to the Election Commission
06:07 of Pakistan for purposes of your eligibility in elections.
06:11 There, although the money was mentioned,
06:14 but he did not mention the profit.
06:16 Now, Election Commission of Pakistan
06:20 is not the taxation body.
06:21 So obviously, the oversight was not
06:23 because he didn't want to pay taxes,
06:25 because he had already declared that profit
06:27 to the Federal Board of Revenue
06:30 on which he had also paid taxes.
06:33 This was, since he was not filling up the forms
06:35 and all that, you can well imagine,
06:37 his staff did all that, they have always been doing it.
06:40 So there was at some point in time an oversight
06:43 where the money was, the profit was not mentioned.
06:45 So that is the entire case.
06:47 It's a technicality, it's a minor technicality
06:50 that why is it that it was not declared?
06:52 Like I said, it was declared to the Federal Board of Revenue,
06:55 which is the taxation body and tax was paid,
06:57 but somehow it was an oversight
06:59 and it was not mentioned in his submissions
07:01 to the Election Commission of Pakistan.
07:03 - But in retrospect, do you think it might have been
07:07 problematic for him to have sold those items,
07:11 even if it was all above board?
07:15 - Well, it was above board, you know,
07:17 while there have been questions on the moral aspects of it,
07:22 I think that is what you're referring to.
07:24 But you see, he did it because he needed money,
07:27 and it was a long road.
07:29 And I remember, because I've been going to that area
07:31 for a long time, it was a horrible road.
07:35 I mean, it was full of potholes.
07:38 So he got that and it was well within the law
07:41 because law does not prohibit you from selling the product,
07:45 you know, selling the gift, you know,
07:47 that you have purchased from the Tushar Khanna.
07:49 So he did it.
07:50 In hindsight, you know, he may be thinking differently,
07:53 I may be thinking differently,
07:54 but the fact is that at that moment in time,
07:56 he was thinking of investing that money
07:58 in improving the road conditions
08:00 for the inhabitants of that area.
08:01 Hundreds of thousands of people use that every day,
08:04 which actually came because of the money that he invested.
08:09 - Yeah. - Yeah.
08:10 - So quite clearly, the money did not,
08:13 the profit did not go to his own pockets.
08:15 That's been clear from the get-go.
08:17 And yet, here we are.
08:19 This is the case which has undone him.
08:22 He's in prison now.
08:24 And the fear is that this is it for him
08:27 in terms of his political career.
08:29 Do you think this is it for him?
08:31 - Well, let me also state here that, you know,
08:34 virtually every head of state or head of government
08:36 in this country has taken gifts away.
08:39 And they have also taken forbidden gifts.
08:41 You know, for example,
08:41 some gifts cannot be taken, like cars.
08:43 The Zardaris and the Sharifs and the Bariums
08:47 of this country have taken even cars.
08:50 And some of those gifts have been taken away
08:53 even at less than 20%, you know,
08:55 which was then the mandated price
08:56 that one had to pay to get those gifts.
08:59 So obviously, I don't know whether those cases
09:00 will ever come up or not,
09:01 but this is, as I said, you know, this is a hatchet job.
09:04 No, Mayank, I don't agree with you, basically.
09:07 I think this is a temporary phase.
09:11 And even if the courts of the country
09:15 would grant a modicum of justice, you know,
09:17 I think, you know, we shall in the next two, three,
09:20 four days be able to get the punishment suspended
09:25 and he will be out of jail.
09:27 And then of course we shall be fighting the case.
09:29 But what we fear is that, you know,
09:31 if he's granted a bail in this case,
09:32 which we think and hope that will be,
09:35 then they're going to just all up in some other case,
09:37 you know, because there are lots of fake
09:39 and fabricated cases, you know,
09:40 which have already been registered against him.
09:42 There are about four or five in numbers.
09:44 There is the cyber thing.
09:46 There is a few other cases, basically.
09:51 So we feel that they want him behind bars
09:53 and they do not want him there at the time of elections.
09:58 But now we also virtually know
10:02 that elections are not going to be held anytime soon.
10:05 Particularly after yesterday,
10:07 when there were two by-elections held in Peshawar
10:09 and Havailia, both these places are in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.
10:12 And in the Peshawar election, you know,
10:14 last time they were held, you know,
10:15 we had ended up at number four, virtually the last.
10:18 Yesterday we won with a thumping majority of 10,000 votes.
10:21 And at Havailia, basically, the number one and number two,
10:24 both belong to Pakistan Tariqa itself.
10:26 One was an official candidate,
10:27 the other was an unofficial candidate.
10:29 It was there.
10:30 So we won that too.
10:31 So these, again, in Havailia too,
10:33 we were languishing in the last election,
10:35 we were languishing at, I think, number four or number five.
10:38 So we won that seat.
10:39 So this is the way the electorate is speaking.
10:42 I mean, it does not matter
10:44 whether the courts are awarding punishment to Khan or not.
10:46 The fact is that the electorate has made up its mind.
10:49 You know, Khan had said a long time ago,
10:51 he said, "No, let them do whatever they want to with me."
10:54 He said, "Whether I am a free man or I am behind bars,
10:57 the fact is that people will cast their votes for me."
10:59 And yesterday's elections in Peshawar and Havailia
11:02 have actually proved him right.
11:04 That is what they did.
11:05 They brought his people back.
11:08 - So ironically, the arrest has ended up bolstering
11:13 the PTI and your electoral prospects
11:15 in case national elections are held.
11:17 - Well, it actually has bolstered, you know,
11:21 and we expected this kind of response.
11:24 I mean, when people realize, you know,
11:26 that injustice has been meted out to the leader,
11:30 then obviously they will come out in larger numbers,
11:32 you know, and I think they will come up
11:33 with greater level of conviction also.
11:35 That is exactly what was exhibited in Karachi,
11:37 in Peshawar and Havailia yesterday.
11:39 I mean, we were absolutely,
11:41 when we were very pleasantly surprised, you know,
11:44 because we thought that maybe we do a little better,
11:46 but we were not expecting to win the elections
11:48 by margins that we actually did.
11:51 So that's incredible.
11:52 That's incredible.
11:53 - So is it your case that there is absolutely no prospect
11:57 of elections being held October, November timeframe at all?
12:02 - No, it is our conviction that elections
12:04 are not going to be held for two reasons.
12:05 Number one, they have empowered the interim government,
12:09 you know, because the interim government is inducted
12:11 for a period of 90 days according
12:12 to the constitution of Pakistan.
12:14 And their sole purpose is to run these day-to-day affairs
12:18 of this country and then hold elections
12:21 and hand over power within 90 days.
12:22 That is number one.
12:23 So they have empowered the government
12:25 beyond the stipulated limits contained in the constitution.
12:29 So that means they want this government
12:32 to last longer than just 90 days.
12:34 We look at one to two years actually as the time period,
12:38 you know, that they, you know, want this government to last.
12:42 And then of course, they've raised this question of census.
12:44 There was a census conducted, you know,
12:46 and this elections are going to be held
12:49 on the basis of the old census.
12:51 Couple of parties, you know, demanded that new,
12:54 it should be held, the election should be held,
12:57 you know, on the basis of the new census.
12:58 But they have now, about three days ago,
13:01 they held a session of the Council of Common Interest,
13:04 you know, in which it has decided that elections
13:07 will be held on the basis of the new census results.
13:09 Now that new census results, you know, in the tabulation,
13:13 you know, and then in the demarcation of constituencies
13:15 and all that, you know, according to experts,
13:17 election experts, they take anything
13:20 between four to eight months.
13:22 So given the three month period, you know,
13:25 and that four to eight months period, you know,
13:28 and the fact, you know, that the God is smashing
13:30 at Peshawar and Havailia yesterday,
13:32 so it must have reimposed their conviction that,
13:34 you know, they cannot win at the hustings.
13:36 So because of all these factors put together,
13:38 we are virtually convinced, you know,
13:39 that elections are not going to be held anytime soon, sir.
13:42 - Doesn't the incarceration automatically trigger
13:46 his disqualification from seeking public office?
13:49 - Yes, technically, he has been disqualified for five years,
13:54 and I think the Election Commission of Pakistan
13:55 has initiated proceedings in order to have him removed
13:58 as the chairman of the Pakistan Tariq-e-Insaf.
14:01 But when I said, you know,
14:01 we are going to move a petition tomorrow,
14:04 because yesterday our lawyers went to see him at Attock Jail,
14:07 and they were not permitted to meet him,
14:09 but they went this morning,
14:10 so they've got the papers signed, you know,
14:11 which are a prerequisite to being able to move the court.
14:15 But since the meeting took place in the afternoon,
14:17 we have not been able to move the petition
14:19 before the Islamabad High Court today,
14:20 but we shall be doing so tomorrow,
14:22 and we hope that in the next three, four,
14:24 five, six days' time, you know,
14:26 we shall be able to get the sentence suspended.
14:29 Quashment may take longer,
14:31 because, you know, when after the suspension of sentence,
14:33 you know, the Islamabad High Court, you know,
14:36 will initiate proceedings all over again.
14:38 So that may take time, and it depends on the outcome.
14:43 If the punishment is quashed,
14:47 then automatically the disablement will also be quashed.
14:51 So if the Islamabad High Court does not do that,
14:56 then we have another forum to go to,
14:57 which is with the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
15:00 So we feel that we may ultimately have to go
15:02 to the Supreme Court, because there has, you know,
15:05 the Islamabad High Court,
15:06 at least one or two judges there,
15:07 one judge definitely, who's the Chief Justice
15:10 of the Islamabad High Court also,
15:11 he has been complicit in the matter
15:13 with the judge of the lower court, which is Judge Dillawar.
15:17 So, you know, he has been acting
15:20 in a funny manner in the past also.
15:21 So we think, or we fear, that ultimately we will have to go
15:25 to the apex court in the country
15:27 called the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
15:29 - But are these justices favorably disposed
15:33 towards looking at this whole scenario the way you want?
15:38 - Well, we don't want them to be favorably disposed.
15:41 We want them to be objective, and, you know,
15:45 and to take decisions, you know, on the basis of the law,
15:49 which is in front of them.
15:52 If the law dictates, you know, that this is a crime
15:54 of such proportion that, you know, he should be,
15:59 first of all, if it's a crime, number one, number two,
16:02 is of such proportion that he should be incarcerated
16:06 for three years and disqualified from holding public office.
16:08 It is for the court to decide,
16:10 but we are not looking for any favors,
16:12 but we also do not want them to grant favors
16:14 to the other party.
16:15 We want them to take a decision which is strictly
16:17 in accordance with the rules of law.
16:19 - I read that he is currently lodged in a C-class cell,
16:24 which is for ordinary prisoners, including some,
16:28 I think Don mentioned that it's sometimes even terrorists
16:32 lodged in a cell like that.
16:34 What's the condition?
16:36 Have you heard anything from the lawyer, Mr. Bhanjota?
16:41 - Yes, he met him today and we have firsthand information.
16:45 I'll share it with you, but let me first
16:48 narrate the other contradictions.
16:50 According to the court order, he was to be arrested by,
16:53 the Islamabad police was ordered to arrest him.
16:56 Instead, he was arrested by Lahore police.
16:58 And you know, the Lahore police reached there
16:59 within minutes.
17:01 So, it looks like they already knew what was coming,
17:04 so they arrested him.
17:05 Then the court also said that he should be housed
17:08 at Adiala jail, which is a jail in Rawalpindi.
17:11 They're adjacent to the capital of Pakistan.
17:14 Instead, he was taken to Attock jail,
17:17 which is a colonial heritage.
17:20 And it does not even have a B quality cell.
17:24 It's all C quality cell, you're right.
17:26 Terrorists are usually housed there and they're tortured.
17:29 So, he has been housed in one of those cells basically.
17:35 And Naim Bhanjota, who met him today
17:37 for about an hour and 40 minutes,
17:39 he has come back with harrowing description
17:40 of the conditions under which he has been kept.
17:43 Said it's a nine by 11 foot cell, which is dark and dingy.
17:47 And he virtually has nothing there
17:50 for his basic comfort.
17:53 There's not even a bed.
17:55 There's a chair there and you see there's a mattress there.
17:59 There is no light.
18:00 It's completely dark.
18:02 What they call the bathroom, but actually it's a toilet.
18:07 It's a stinking toilet, which is inside the room.
18:11 So, he has to contend with that.
18:14 So, these are the conditions under which he's living.
18:17 And we are going to, in our petition before the Supreme Court
18:22 we are also going to request to know
18:24 that he be provided the facilities
18:25 that according to the constitution of Pakistan is his right.
18:28 So, let's see how does the court respond to that?
18:32 There are multiple, multiple factors to the petition
18:34 that we are expected to sort of move tomorrow.
18:38 So, let's see how does the court respond
18:39 and how do we move further with this?
18:41 But this is absolutely abominable.
18:43 The conditions under which, I mean,
18:45 rainwater was dripping from the ceiling last night.
18:47 So, you know, you can well imagine.
18:51 - Yeah.
18:52 - There's a lot of vendetta at play here.
18:57 More than justice and fair play.
19:00 - In the event that your case does not go
19:03 the way you would like, what happens?
19:07 He remains in prison and then he has to serve out a sentence.
19:10 I'm talking about beyond Supreme Court.
19:12 If the Supreme Court also does not rule
19:15 in favor of releasing him,
19:17 what is the contingency that the PTI leadership has?
19:22 - Well, technically, yes, you're right.
19:24 Then he serves the sentence
19:26 and he remains disqualified for a period of five years
19:28 from holding the public office.
19:29 That means he does not remain the chairman of the party.
19:32 But that does not mean
19:33 that he would not be able to guide the party.
19:35 And so many people, for example,
19:36 Nawaz Sharif living in London has been disqualified
19:38 from holding public office in the last three years,
19:41 three and a half years.
19:42 But he has continued to lead the party.
19:44 So was the case with Zardari also.
19:46 At some time, he was disqualified,
19:48 but he continued to lead the party.
19:49 So, he becomes kind of leaders without a designation,
19:53 but they will continue to lead the party.
19:55 But he will not be able to hold public office.
19:57 He will not be able to fight the election
19:59 to become a member of the National Assembly
20:01 and consequently cannot become the Prime Minister
20:03 of the country.
20:04 So that, of course, will not happen for five years.
20:07 I mean, we knew that he was going to be arrested.
20:11 That was, of course, a foregone conclusion.
20:13 So, but before he was arrested,
20:14 he had put a mechanism together,
20:16 how to run the party in his absence.
20:18 And this party is now being run according to that mechanism.
20:20 There's a core committee of which I'm also a member,
20:24 and we meet every day and we take the rest of the situation
20:29 as it is developing.
20:30 And then we take decisions on a day-to-day basis.
20:33 But these decisions are taken by consensus.
20:35 This was the chairman's directive,
20:38 that all decisions will be taken by consensus.
20:41 So we have a mechanism.
20:42 We have a workable mechanism in place,
20:44 and that is functioning at this moment in time,
20:46 even when the chairman is not there for,
20:48 hopefully for just a short period of time.
20:51 - How do you battle the deep-rooted culture of vendetta
20:55 and vindictiveness that has seen your leaders
20:59 being sent into exile?
21:01 They are disqualified, they are imprisoned,
21:03 then they come back and contest and win.
21:05 It seems like a cycle in Pakistan,
21:08 the latest being Mr. Khan.
21:11 - My aunt, you are absolutely right.
21:13 I can't doubt it at all, not an iota.
21:15 And I was in another program with this lady, Faiza,
21:20 and we discussed it, and I said it's painful.
21:25 I said it's painful, and it has happened
21:28 because of excessive politicization of state institutions.
21:31 Police, for example.
21:33 I mean, there was a time when Sharif Nawab,
21:35 Shahbaz Sharif was the chief minister of Punjab.
21:37 He brought 2,000 criminals, hardened criminals
21:41 out of the prison cell and recruited them
21:43 in the police department.
21:44 And he proceeded to have lots of extrajudicial killings
21:49 perpetrated by using these people, but they have stayed on.
21:53 And instead of 2,000 people, they possibly are 20,000 now
21:56 because there's a kind of culture
21:58 which has penetrated the police force.
22:00 It's now a collective of criminals and gangsters
22:05 rather than law enforcers.
22:06 So, we have an institution,
22:08 and the state of other institutions is not much better.
22:12 But I must come back to this question that you put again.
22:17 The fact is that here, the battle is not for winning
22:20 an election or losing an election,
22:21 or not winning this election,
22:23 and not losing this election.
22:25 This battle had become a battle for political survival
22:30 of the parties who had been ousted
22:32 because they had committed crimes,
22:36 massive crimes, financial and otherwise, in the country,
22:39 for which Prime Minister Khan,
22:41 then Prime Minister Khan, insisted on trying them.
22:44 Unfortunately, the institutions of the state
22:46 did not support him in that.
22:48 No, virtually no institution of the state supported him
22:51 because they were deeply dug in mafias.
22:53 He took on the sugar mafia, for example,
22:55 and they said, "We will see you."
22:56 And they actually, they realized what they wanted to do.
23:00 So, ultimately, he was ousted.
23:01 The sugar mafia remained intact.
23:03 So, the roots are very deeply dug in
23:06 and very vastly spread out.
23:08 And this is a culture which has been cultivated
23:11 over a period of 75 years.
23:12 So, Khan, during a short period of time,
23:16 could not have handled it,
23:18 particularly when the state institutions
23:19 were not supportive of that effort
23:21 because they too were beneficiaries
23:23 of this culture of corruption and loot and plunder.
23:27 So, the crisis is that, like I said,
23:30 in the same program that I just referred to,
23:32 I said, it's no longer a question of
23:35 administering disprints.
23:37 We need a comprehensive surgical procedure
23:41 to get out the ailments that, unfortunately,
23:44 the body politic of this country
23:46 is so deeply infected with.
23:47 I don't know whether you know,
23:50 but I'm a cancer survivor.
23:51 I know what I went through for four years.
23:53 I know exactly.
23:53 It was a rebirth.
23:56 I had to learn to walk again.
23:57 I had to learn to use my hand.
23:59 I had to learn to sort of move my limbs.
24:01 That is the state of the country.
24:05 So, the book that I'm writing,
24:07 basically, it's a subcaption states
24:10 a story of two cancers.
24:11 It's my cancer and the cancer
24:13 that I feel my country suffers from.
24:14 That is actually a correct and apt description
24:17 of what my country is all about at this moment in time.
24:20 So, you need a prolonged struggle.
24:22 You need to initiate a prolonged cleansing process.
24:27 And that should be across all contours of the society.
24:30 Nobody should be exempted from that.
24:32 Nobody has a holy right to stay the way he or she wants to.
24:36 The fact is that if you want to,
24:38 if the country should take precedence,
24:40 which people like me think it must,
24:42 then everybody else has to submit.
24:44 All institutions have to submit
24:45 before the interest of the state.
24:47 That has never been the going thing in Pakistan.
24:49 Some people have remained beyond the domain of law.
24:52 They feel that they cannot be touched.
24:54 And that is the ruling elite,
24:56 which is less than 1%.
24:57 In fact, the ruling elite actually is a minuscule
25:00 of even that 1%.
25:02 So, they have dominated.
25:03 They have made laws to their benefit.
25:05 They have amended laws to their benefit.
25:07 They have been exempt from prosecution
25:12 under the rule of law.
25:13 So, like I write so often,
25:17 I say that there's two laws in this country,
25:20 one for the rich and one for the poor.
25:22 And there's another way I describe it.
25:23 Unfortunately, because of the fact, you know,
25:26 that wealth has been plundered
25:27 by this minuscule ruling elite,
25:31 bulk of the people have been branded poor,
25:33 so poor that they can barely have two meals a day.
25:36 So, I say Pakistan suffers from two kinds of corruptions,
25:39 a corruption of greed and a corruption of need.
25:43 Greed by this minuscule ruling elite,
25:46 you know, because they want more and more,
25:47 they're billions and they want more billions.
25:49 And need of that sprawling poor people of the country
25:53 who are struggling to have two meals put on the table
25:56 or wherever they sit to eat.
25:59 So, you know, by the roadside,
26:00 you go to this tailor, for example,
26:02 you know, who's selling apples, you know,
26:03 he would like to give you five apples
26:05 for a kilo rather than six, which is the exact.
26:08 So, you know, you would kind of,
26:09 well, that is neat, you can overlook that.
26:11 But, you know, this is the state of the country.
26:14 You know, this is an appalling state of the country,
26:17 which unfortunately it has been pushed into.
26:19 And even today, there are two laws.
26:21 One for the rich, one for the poor,
26:23 one for the powerful, one for the weak.
26:25 In two justice systems.
26:26 Yeah.
26:29 - Now, on my last visit to Pakistan in 1993,
26:32 but a long time ago,
26:34 I was told by someone that one of the fundamental problems
26:39 that you see, what you see in Pakistan is
26:42 the feudal lordism that you see in Pakistan is
26:45 there was never any serious land reform
26:48 done like it was done in India, for instance.
26:50 And that has really sort of spun off the kind of problems
26:55 that you continue to see 75 years into your existence.
26:59 - Three problems.
27:03 First and foremost, sorry, three problems.
27:06 First and foremost is the one that you've described.
27:08 Yes, we have had no land reforms in the country.
27:11 Bhutto came, you know,
27:12 but those were fraudulent land reforms.
27:14 He said, you know, no, he gave a ceiling
27:17 of ownership of land for every person, you know.
27:19 But what people did was that instead of disposing it off
27:21 and giving it to the poor people and the land, you know,
27:24 they transferred the land in the names of their servants.
27:28 So it actually virtually remained their property.
27:30 Then second is that we, you know,
27:32 in comparing with India, of course, you know,
27:34 you had land reformed very early on
27:36 under Prime Minister Nehru.
27:39 Then second is that you had a constitution very early on.
27:42 We did not have a constitution till 1973,
27:45 although there was a constitution in '56,
27:47 but it was aborted.
27:48 It was not implemented.
27:50 So we ultimately ended up with the constitution in 1973.
27:53 And number three is the justice system from day one,
27:57 because judiciary became involved
27:59 in legitimizing military takeovers.
28:02 The judiciary always legitimized a military takeover.
28:06 The military dictators depended on legitimization,
28:10 you know, from the judiciary to escape punishment,
28:14 because obviously there was a constitution post 1973.
28:18 So, how fearful are you of,
28:23 for Mr. Khan's life at this stage?
28:25 - Well, that's a very, very sensitive question.
28:30 And to be honest about it,
28:31 we discussed it at length
28:32 in the core committee meeting today.
28:37 Yes, we are very fearful about his life.
28:39 You see, I think in my last program with you,
28:42 we discussed the tactics employed to neutralize him,
28:47 including political elimination, physical elimination,
28:50 and now this phase, which is the third phase,
28:53 this is having him implicated, you know,
28:55 in cases like the one, Dosha Khan and others.
29:00 So there is desperation, there's growing desperation.
29:04 I'm sure with the results yesterday
29:06 in Peshawar and Avelian that we discussed,
29:08 this desperation possibly is going to increase further.
29:13 And because of the reason that Khan is proving to be,
29:16 unlike any of his predecessors,
29:19 who when ousted from power would compromise
29:22 and leave the country,
29:23 be it Sharif, be it Zardari, be it others,
29:26 unlike them, he says that he is going to stay on
29:28 in the country because this is where he belongs.
29:31 And that, you know, he does not have billions stashed abroad
29:34 or properties stashed abroad,
29:35 you know, that he's going to sort of, you know,
29:36 go to look after.
29:37 So he says, this is my country
29:39 and everything that I have belongs here
29:40 and I'm going to stay here.
29:42 So he's a different kind of politician
29:45 and he's proving to be a different kind of politician.
29:47 It's a mindset game, basically.
29:49 So that will inject a much higher level of desperation
29:54 among the people who want to see him eliminated.
29:58 - Do you think they underestimated his tenacity?
30:02 - Well, I think yes.
30:06 I think yes.
30:07 Although Khan has been sort of known for his tenacity,
30:13 his consistency and the fact, you know,
30:17 that he does not give in.
30:19 I mean, if you talk to his cricketing colleagues,
30:22 basically, who were part of the 1992 team also,
30:25 Rameez Raja, one of them, you know,
30:28 actually appeared in a program and he said,
30:30 you know, we feel that, you know,
30:31 because he kept on saying that we're going to win the cup.
30:34 And if you remember during the initial matches,
30:35 you know, we lost all.
30:37 And we were on the verge of being eliminated
30:39 in the initial stages, you know,
30:40 when we were saved by rain.
30:42 And we got into the semifinals.
30:45 From then on, Pakistan played a different kind of game.
30:48 So Rameez says, you know, that, you know, when, you know,
30:51 against the run of the matches,
30:55 when he insisted that we're going to take the cup home,
30:57 we said, he's gone mad.
30:59 He actually used the word.
31:00 So such is his tenacity, such is his depth of belief.
31:05 And this is in fact, you know, the source of his power also,
31:08 the source of his energy also.
31:10 So, you know, this deep inside,
31:12 that resides deep inside him, you know, this faith.
31:15 He gets a lot of power from that.
31:17 - Speaking of cricket and cricketers,
31:21 has any of his colleagues come out in support openly?
31:25 - Well, I haven't seen any,
31:28 but I know that he has friends all over the world
31:32 from the cricketing world.
31:33 There are, I think, a couple of tweets that I have read
31:39 complaining about the way he's being treated and all that.
31:42 But, you know, then he has not appealed to them either.
31:44 He has not appealed to anybody for support or help.
31:47 So, you know, this is just one of those things
31:48 that people are just, that people are looking at.
31:51 - At this stage, what's the end game
31:53 for the Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif from this?
31:58 - He has said that he's going to dissolve the assembly
32:01 by the 9th, which is two days away.
32:03 So that means day after tomorrow,
32:05 he would no longer be the Prime Minister.
32:09 Rumors have been circulating, you know,
32:11 that there is a division within the family.
32:13 People have raised question marks, you know,
32:15 why is it that even after a passage of 16 months
32:18 in the government by his brother,
32:21 Shabaz Nawaz Sharif has not come back to Pakistan?
32:25 He has held meetings, you know,
32:26 but he has only flown to the Bay and back to London.
32:30 So this, and some personal impression
32:33 that I've collected, you know,
32:34 I think there is an ongoing kind of conflict,
32:38 you know, between Nawaz's and Shabaz's children.
32:42 Both of them are promoting their respective progeny.
32:45 And unfortunately, the insiders have confided in me,
32:51 you know, that Shabaz is no longer willing
32:55 to see Nawaz Sharif come back and bid for a fourth term.
32:59 Certain other powers also are unwilling
33:03 to accept him back in the board.
33:04 So it is said that possibly he may not come back.
33:09 Till about three months ago,
33:12 there was much talk about the fact
33:14 that he was going to be back
33:15 and he was going to lead the charge
33:17 to become the Prime Minister a fourth time.
33:20 But that talk has kind of,
33:22 that noise has kind of died down of late.
33:25 So let's see what happens.
33:27 It's just two days away.
33:28 Let's see, first of all,
33:29 see who becomes the interim Prime Minister.
33:31 And let's also see, like we discussed
33:34 in the earlier part of your program,
33:36 that I don't foresee any elections in the near future
33:38 because of the census results
33:42 and the economic situation in the country.
33:44 So let's see what happens.
33:46 And then, I think from there on,
33:48 we can see who would be a likelier candidate
33:51 to sort of assume power whenever elections are held.
33:54 - The interim government can go on indefinitely?
33:57 - 90 days, only 90 days.
34:01 - And do they have the ability to extend after that?
34:04 Or that's it?
34:05 - No, no, no, no.
34:07 Constitution mandates that within 90 days,
34:09 they have to hand over charge
34:10 to the government elected by the people of the country.
34:13 But in the recent past,
34:16 the court mandated,
34:17 constitution mandated that elections are to be held
34:19 within 60 days in the provinces
34:21 where PGI had dissolved its assemblies in Punjab and KP.
34:26 But in spite of the court induction,
34:29 the government refused to hold those elections.
34:31 So they have been in defiance of the constitution.
34:33 They have been in defiance of the electoral system
34:36 and all that.
34:38 And recently, three days ago,
34:39 the Supreme Court has issued its detailed verdict
34:43 in which it has categorically stated
34:46 that the election commission of Pakistan
34:48 and the administration were in defiance of the constitution
34:51 and they have committed a crime.
34:52 Now, whether that leads to institution of cases against them
34:55 is something different.
34:56 But you must also remember
34:57 that the Supreme Court has taken this long
35:01 to come up with a detailed judgment,
35:02 because, and it had not issued a detailed judgment then,
35:06 because it knew that the institutions of the state
35:09 which are supposed to come to its aid
35:11 to have the judgment implemented,
35:14 this is mandated in the constitution,
35:16 will not do so,
35:17 be it the administration
35:18 or be it other institutions of the state.
35:20 Consequently, it did not,
35:22 after that judgment regarding holding of elections in Punjab
35:26 on the 14th of May,
35:26 which of course were not held,
35:28 it did not make public this detailed judgment
35:33 which has come out now,
35:35 where it has blamed the election commission of Pakistan
35:37 and the administration
35:38 for having committed contempt of constitution.
35:43 - So what are the implications of the interim government
35:45 staying beyond the stipulated 90-day period?
35:49 - Well, we will have to see
35:51 where do they get that legitimacy.
35:53 Maybe they're also looking at the changeover
35:56 in the leadership in the Supreme Court.
35:59 And if maybe they go to the Supreme Court
36:03 and cite the reasons
36:04 why they would want the interim government
36:06 to stay beyond the mandated 90 days.
36:08 Like the military takeovers
36:12 have been legitimized by the judiciary.
36:14 The judiciary may once again
36:15 invent another doctrine of necessity
36:17 and legitimize a longer stay by the interim government,
36:22 stretching up to two years or so,
36:23 which has been speculated.
36:25 - Just last couple of things, Rauf.
36:26 Is there any apprehension or fear
36:30 within the PTI of disintegration
36:34 now that they see Mr. Khan seemingly weakening,
36:37 although that doesn't seem to be the case
36:39 to the PTI cadres and members.
36:42 What is your sense of how the party
36:45 is looking at this turn of events?
36:48 - Well, we believe that we are through with the worst of it.
36:50 If the party had to go,
36:53 the party, of course,
36:54 like I call them the rats jumping the ship,
36:56 who all were so-called electables,
36:58 they joined the government never to serve the country,
37:01 but to serve the personal interest, which they did.
37:03 And by the way, that was a mistake on our part also.
37:05 I'm not condoning that.
37:06 We selected the wrong people to join the ship,
37:08 but to come on the ship, on board the ship.
37:11 They were the first ones to do.
37:13 They were the corrupt people,
37:14 easily manipulatable by those who wanted to manipulate them.
37:18 So they are gone.
37:21 And as I said, in one of my articles,
37:24 the party has been glanced of such electables.
37:27 So it's kind of gone back to the moorings,
37:30 ideological moorings.
37:31 Yes, we are through with the worst.
37:35 This party has survived without bulk
37:38 of its senior leadership.
37:40 We have survived through the worst of times,
37:42 and I think it's time for us to research.
37:44 I wrote in that article that it's like a Phoenix thing.
37:49 Basically, I think the party that shall emerge
37:51 out of the ashes is going to be a stronger party,
37:56 a more cohesive party,
37:57 and a more ideologically rooted party.
38:00 That I think I see with increasing hope and optimism.
38:05 - To conclude, even if this was not the situation
38:12 where Mr. Khan has been arrested and in prison,
38:16 there would be the question of new second tier leadership,
38:20 because he is getting in on years,
38:22 and I'm sure even without this,
38:24 that point would have been raised by some.
38:27 What's your sense of that about the second tier leadership?
38:31 - Well, we've had many sessions with Khan Saab
38:34 regarding the same question, Mayank.
38:37 He's totally committed to letting
38:39 the younger generation come forth.
38:40 And he says that bulk of my candidates
38:43 for national and provincial assembly seats
38:46 that they are going to be from the younger generation.
38:49 And some of the people are quite visible as a matter of fact,
38:53 you know, on the political spectrum here
38:55 who are going to take over.
38:56 And they are present in this core committee
38:59 that I've talked about.
39:00 They are part of the decision-making process,
39:02 you know, to take the party through these difficult times.
39:06 So one thing is very clear that within the PGI,
39:11 Mayank, you will now be seeing a lot of younger people
39:15 who have played, I mean, this person, for example,
39:18 who was one big in Peshawar,
39:20 you know, he was a very ordinary worker of PGI.
39:25 And, you know, during difficult days, you know,
39:30 he was present at Banegala,
39:31 is Khan's residence in Islamabad.
39:34 And then he was present at Zaman Park,
39:37 you know, Khan's residence in Lahore.
39:38 And he was the one, you know,
39:39 he was one of the people who slept there,
39:41 who were spending time there, who refused to go.
39:44 And Khan had seen him there doing all that kind of work.
39:49 So out of nowhere, he said, you know,
39:53 I'm going to nominate him as my candidate, you know, to,
39:56 he's a very young boy, about maybe 24, 25 years of age,
40:00 not more than that, maybe even younger than that.
40:03 So he won big.
40:04 And so this is, let me share something with you.
40:09 I think it's important.
40:10 I have this strong feeling, you know,
40:12 I may not have been in politics.
40:14 I still am not in the so-called traditional politics
40:16 of this country, and I'll never be,
40:18 but I've written about politics.
40:19 I've sort of studied politics.
40:21 This country is post next election, whenever that is said,
40:26 you will see a lot of new faces emerging, you know,
40:31 lot of new faces emerging.
40:32 So it's going to be different.
40:33 I think this country has taken a turn,
40:35 hopefully for the better.
40:37 And it, country is never going to be the same as existed,
40:40 let's say about two, three, four, five years ago.
40:42 So that is a positive, you know, that I really cherish.
40:45 And I hope that we all remain steadfast to know
40:48 in our resolve to let the younger people emerge
40:50 and come forth.
40:51 So for as Khan is concerned,
40:52 he has been constantly reiterating his commitment
40:56 to giving a chance to the younger lot.
40:59 So if they come forth,
41:00 I think they will come with your commitment,
41:02 you know, additional energy.
41:05 And I also feel that they will also have a deep set love
41:10 and affection for the country,
41:11 and they will take it forward.
41:13 I think, I bank my hope in that future
41:18 led by the young lot.
41:19 - Before I let you go,
41:21 I must ask you why one always hopes for the best
41:24 in terms of Mr. Khan's future from now on.
41:28 In terms of the worst case scenario,
41:31 what is the talk within the party
41:34 that if he stays on in prison for three years
41:37 and gets disqualified,
41:39 is there anything that you can share with us?
41:42 - Well, as I said earlier,
41:44 he has put a mechanism in place.
41:46 As I said, core committee is part of that mechanism.
41:49 So we're taking decisions by consensus.
41:51 And God forbid, God forbid,
41:53 he does not get relief from the courts,
41:55 and he has to stay behind bars for three years.
41:57 Obviously, you know,
41:58 we will have somebody leading the way.
42:01 It could be collective leadership
42:02 as we are experimenting now,
42:05 which is working very well.
42:07 But I think at some point in time,
42:09 maybe we have to move away from this collective leadership
42:12 and have people demarcated for playing various roles.
42:17 But whenever it is done,
42:21 if it has to be done,
42:23 I mean, if, for example,
42:27 he does not get a relief or something,
42:29 obviously it will be done with his guidance
42:33 and according to his wishes.
42:35 (silence)
42:38 [BLANK_AUDIO]