GB News presenter Ben Leo clashed with ex-Labour spokesman Matthewson in a heated debate over transgender rights and access to single-sex spaces.The fiery exchange centred on whether trans women are biological men, with Leo asserting scientific facts while Matthewson challenged what he called a misunderstanding of transgender issues.READ THE FULL STORY
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00:00Look, I was sitting with my friend who's trans when this ruling was announced at the Supreme Court, and to sit opposite somebody who is going to live through the effects of this, and somebody who is experiencing all the emotion, all the difficulty, all the fear that comes with it, was truly transformative for me.
00:18It's an absolutely terrifying moment for so many people in our country, and it really, really disappoints me, the narrative that we're seeing in the media, that we're seeing perpetrated by the government, as well as it follows on from the Supreme Court ruling, that just seems to lack.
00:33And we talk about it being Easter Sunday right now, you know? And I want to ask people who come out with these positions about trans people, and the comments that they've freely made, how they can do so in the conscious of themselves being Christians, and believe what Jesus Christ would say about these people.
00:49I'm not a Christian, I'm an atheist, right? I believe Jesus Christ was a real person, and I just don't believe as divinity.
00:56However, when you look at the words of that man written down, you know, from 2,000 years ago, how can you not think that that man would be an advocate for everybody, the minorities in our society?
01:08And that's exactly what we're seeing here, the minorities in our society attacked, demonised, and villainised.
01:14Yeah, I mean, any abuse towards trans people, the comments you reference, of course, it goes without saying, is wrong, but what we're dealing here with is scientific facts, and the facts that women don't want biological men in their spaces.
01:24So, whilst I appreciate, at the one time, trans people may be going through some personal troubles, and they're confused, or whatever, I'll never understand.
01:32They're not confused, Ben. I have to challenge that narrative, they're not confused.
01:36There is only one confusion here, and that is people who are advocating for a situation they do not understand they are creating.
01:43Now, where do you want to put trans men? Where do you want trans men to go to the bathroom?
01:48Well, I just, it's a bit different trans men, because they are women.
01:53So, the problem is, as I explained to somebody, I mentioned, Brian's hand, let me finish.
01:56They're trans men.
01:57They're not, they're women.
01:58They've got better, most of them have got better facial hair than you or I will ever have, Ben.
02:02Well, that they probably have, because they take testosterone, and I don't, and I'll have to produce mine naturally.
02:08But they are, I'm sorry, as the court ruled, James, they are, they are, they're men.
02:13Sorry, they're women.
02:14The pressure, the pressure that has been put on in the campaign, we have never seen anything like it.
02:19It has been extensive.
02:20So, what about the rights of women, James?
02:22We hear about how trans people want to use, trans women want to use women's toilets.
02:26What about the women who are saying, hang on a minute, I feel scared here.
02:29I feel threatened by a six-foot biological man being in the toilet with me.
02:32What about them?
02:33Six foot, it's now to do with people's height, Ben.
02:35Yes, it is.
02:36It is, actually, James.
02:37It is.
02:37It's all about height.
02:39It's about power.
02:40It's about threatening nature.
02:41There are cis women.
02:43There are cis biological women who are six foot.
02:45So, that argument makes absolutely no sense.
02:47But on the whole, James, don't, you're playing, you're playing, you're playing silly.
02:52On the whole, men, let's, let's agree on this point first before we continue.
02:55Men, on the whole, are more physical, powerful beings than women.
03:00They are generally taller.
03:01They are faster.
03:02They're quicker.
03:03Much bigger lung capacity, bigger bone density.
03:05They can, on the whole, they can manhandle women.
03:07That's what women are scared about.
03:09You agree with that?
03:10Yeah, let's get down to what we're talking about here.
03:12Do you agree with that?
03:13That's the problem men pose.
03:14Men are the problem.
03:17Well, yeah.
03:17Are you a feminist, Ben?
03:18Trans women are men.
03:20Are you a feminist, Ben?
03:21No, I'm not.
03:23Why?
03:24Why are you making an argument for feminism?
03:27We're going down a silly rap, because, I mean, okay, don't answer my other point then.
03:31To answer your feminism point is because the term feminist has been hijacked by very extreme people.
03:38And I believe in equal rights for women, but that doesn't make me a feminist.
03:41That makes you a feminist, Ben.
03:43That makes you a feminist.
03:44You should be proud to say it.
03:45No, it doesn't.
03:46Not in today's definition.
03:48Not in today's definition.
03:49Anyway, the point is that I'm a feminist.
03:51I believe in protecting women.
03:52Now, the danger to women is men.
03:54It's not trans women.
03:56Trans women are not men.
03:56Trans women are men.
03:57Sorry.
03:58Trans women are women, and they are not men.
04:01And statistically, they are not attacking women anywhere near the capacity that people, you know,
04:07that you would give the credence to in the media.
04:09It's absolutely diabolical.
04:11It's a campaign that is based on hate and division.
04:15Why can we not just let people live the lives they need to live?
04:19I agree.
04:20This ruling brings...
04:22You say about the trans men situation, you don't have an answer for it.
04:25If you want six foot three bearded men, handsome bearded men, in women's bathrooms, that's what you've done.
04:32There are statistics which Dawn Neeson just read out.
04:34I don't have them to hand.
04:35But the rate of sexual offenders in prisons, for example, among trans inmates is much higher than what you would call,
04:42I don't hear the term, cis.
04:44That's because the rate of prisoners is higher in assaults generally anyway, because people who get put in prison...
04:49Oh, well, there's always an excuse, isn't there, for the stats?
04:51You just ask for stats, and I've briefly skirted around some.
04:54There's always a reason.
04:55I've got stats that go in the opposite direction, but we can do that all day long.
04:58My point is...
04:59On this Easter Sunday, James...
05:01Yeah, go on then, finish up.
05:01My point remains that about tolerance, about love, and about respect...
05:06You've just spent ten minutes there...
05:07Be tolerance towards women then, James.
05:09You believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ and the love of the world and the passion of it.
05:14Yet then we start talking about trans people, and you're all going, trans women are men.
05:17Well, they are.
05:19You're not living up to your own principles then.
05:19It's not hateful to say that.
05:21James, it's not hateful to say that.
05:22The Supreme Court just ruled it.
05:24Anyway, this is descending into...
05:26You're not living up to your own principles then.
05:27Yeah, OK, James.
05:28Happy Easter to you, my friend.
05:29Hope you have a good bank holiday.
05:30Enjoy.