Princeton University renamed a building to honor Supreme Court Justice and alumna Sonia Sotomayor, and held an assembly featuring the Associate Justice.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Justice Sotomayor, welcome back to Princeton.
00:13I never imagined a moment like this when I was here.
00:20I hope all of you will experience it someday.
00:24Well, we are so happy you are experiencing it right now.
00:27I guess I should say, if Vice President Calhoun hasn't explained this musical equipment,
00:33it's not because the Justice and I are planning to perform for you later on.
00:38We have Jazz Fest coming up, and so we have to be set up for that.
00:42Jazz Fest?
00:44Jazz Fest.
00:44Wow.
00:45Yeah, that wouldn't have happened when you were a student.
00:48No, never happened.
00:50So I want to welcome you back,
00:52and thank you for allowing us to name Sonia Sotomayor Hall in your honor.
01:07So you've come back here many times since joining the court.
01:12What goes through your mind when you return to campus?
01:14What are the big changes or differences that you see at Princeton today?
01:18Physically, it's a totally different campus.
01:23You have, the campus was this main area.
01:27It went down to Dillon Hall.
01:30There was a tennis court behind it.
01:32And then there was nothing.
01:36Until you got, it felt like walking a mile to the parking lot.
01:41Now, that space is all filled with new buildings.
01:45I used to work at the computer center,
01:48which was at the end of Prospect Avenue Street.
01:53And it was the first major intersection,
01:55was the Third World Center.
01:56Across the street was the computer center.
02:00And the computer center in front of it was Stevenson Hall.
02:04And Stevenson Hall was the spot for Jewish students to eat.
02:09And because I worked at the computer center,
02:13I would eat often at Stevenson Hall.
02:16And that was the first place I went in and asked for milk with dinner.
02:22And the students serving me said,
02:24we keep kosher.
02:29You learn lessons even as a New Yorker.
02:31At any rate, now, and there was, I think, what was the private eating club?
02:39Was it Cottage or something like that?
02:41That was one of them.
02:42One of them on Washington Road.
02:44But Washington, the campus ended there.
02:46That was Paris, probably.
02:48Yeah.
02:48Yeah.
02:49But it ended right there.
02:51You now go down to the boathouse with new buildings.
02:55The physical plant has changed dramatically.
02:59But what has also changed is the composition both of the administration of,
03:05not both, of the administration of faculty and students.
03:09I was the third year of women.
03:12A room where half the audience of students is women would have never happened.
03:17I was the only woman in many classes.
03:22So the fact that we're such a diverse student body now,
03:26of all kinds, of all backgrounds,
03:29is such a dramatic difference from when I was here.
03:33This was still an old boys' playground.
03:37And that has thankfully changed so much.
03:41The fact that you have a music department
03:44that is actually world-renowned now,
03:47that's brand new.
03:49But that your administrators are so diverse,
03:52a woman provost would have never happened back then.
03:57The only woman dean was a dean of students.
04:01Now you have them running departments.
04:05Only Nancy Macchio, who was Nancy Weiss back then,
04:09was the head of the history department.
04:10But I don't think there was another woman who was the head of the department.
04:13These changes are not just symbolic,
04:20although the symbolism is so important.
04:22There's something more fundamental that has happened here.
04:26The place has grown.
04:29It's developed and it's grown into a multicultural,
04:34multidimensional institution.
04:36And so when I come back, it's with pleasure and real joy to see the changes.
04:44Although I have to say, I used to ride my bicycle everywhere.
04:49I guess I would get tired now going to some of the movies you have to reach.
04:56Yeah.
04:56Well, we have, I'm so glad you recognize the way we have grown more diverse
05:02and so evident looking out at this wonderful student body.
05:06We've become more diverse and we've become better
05:08and more excellent as a result of that diversity.
05:11So thank you for helping to get it started.
05:14We, we, we, you and I both have jobs where our institutional roles
05:19limit what it is that we can say, you more so than me.
05:23And, and, and, and, and given that,
05:26and there may be all sorts of questions in people's minds as we get started here
05:30that they would love to have me ask you and that I can't,
05:34I thought I would ask you to say a little bit about how you think about
05:37the guidelines and parameters for conversations like this one.
05:43I obviously have studied many areas of the law intimately.
05:50I have opinions about many areas of the law,
05:55but I do believe that when people come into the courtroom,
06:01that they want to believe and should believe
06:04that I am keeping an open mind
06:07until I've read everything they've given me to read
06:11and I've heard their lawyers argue
06:14and that I've even heard my colleagues' votes.
06:21To be able to do that,
06:24I have a very, very passionate belief
06:27that I should not be opining on issues that are before the court,
06:31that I may have in the past spoken about them
06:35when they weren't issues before us,
06:37but that people should know that I am keeping an open mind.
06:41And so I don't talk about cases
06:44that are before the court or likely to come before the court.
06:48I also, the Code of Judicial Ethics
06:52commends me to avoid commenting on political issues.
06:59And so I stay away from that as well.
07:04It doesn't mean that I don't talk more generally,
07:07but I'm very cautious about staying out of political debate
07:11for that same reason that I don't think people should be guided
07:15about how I feel about something.
07:18When a younger person asks me about a political issue,
07:22I look at them and I say,
07:23why is my opinion important?
07:25What's your opinion?
07:26And why?
07:28And you should be asking yourself that question.
07:31If you want to ask me the question,
07:33then you haven't gone on out
07:36to learn enough about the issue you're asking me about.
07:40Because it should be your opinion that matters.
07:44So anyway, those are the things I stay away from.
07:47But there leaves a lot to ask me.
07:51So with that in mind,
07:53I'm going to pivot to some questions
07:55and try to weave in here some questions
07:57we received in advance
07:59from some of the students
08:01who are with us here in the audience.
08:04Let me begin with this.
08:05As Vice President Calhoun's introduction illustrates,
08:09you've lived this really amazing life in the law,
08:12prosecutor, solo practitioner, commercial litigator,
08:18district court judge, circuit court judge,
08:20and now Supreme Court justice.
08:22And that observation leads to the two questions
08:24that relate to one another.
08:26One from Leah Reddy of the class of 2025.
08:31Where are you?
08:32Is Leah here somewhere?
08:35Where is she?
08:35It's really hard to see.
08:37Are you up there?
08:38Is she up there?
08:39There she is.
08:39She's up top right under a light.
08:41You know something?
08:42Do me a favor.
08:43Wend your way down
08:44because there has to be a photographer in this room, right?
08:48Is there?
08:49Oh, there is.
08:50Yes, there's a photographer in the back.
08:51Come on down at some point
08:53so we can take a picture together.
08:54All right?
08:55Okay.
08:55Come on down.
08:56All right.
08:57All right.
09:02I can barely see her.
09:05I know.
09:05It is really hard.
09:07So you've got to come down
09:07so I can actually see you.
09:08Leah Reddy of the class of 25
09:11from operations, research, and financial engineering,
09:14a graduating senior.
09:15She wants to know
09:16what were pivotal moments in your life path
09:19such as mentors, experiences, and decisions
09:22that defined your journey.
09:25And I'll combine that if it's okay
09:27with a question from Jack Hasker.
09:30Jack, where are you?
09:32Is Jack also up top?
09:34Where is he?
09:35No, he's over there.
09:35The students are pointing.
09:36That's really helpful.
09:37Oh, it's good.
09:38There is.
09:39Okay.
09:39Those lights are facing us,
09:41so I'm sorry.
09:42Jack, come on down.
09:43All right.
09:45So Jack, who is also from the operations,
09:48research, and financial engineering department,
09:50asks, was there a great decision
09:54or a big mistake that changed your life
09:59during your time at Princeton
10:00or shortly afterward?
10:02Oh, okay.
10:03I wrote a book about this.
10:07And the book is really big.
10:10It's almost 300 pages.
10:12We would take the whole hour and longer
10:14for me to answer every part of that.
10:17So I think the entire course of my life
10:24changed when I came here.
10:27You have to start from what I knew,
10:32which was nothing about what Princeton was.
10:36With me today is the high school friend
10:40who got to Princeton a year before I did.
10:42And he was just explaining to another friend of mine
10:47how he got here.
10:48And the story is identical,
10:50except that he was asking the same questions
10:53of his debate coach at our high school.
10:59And basically he asked,
11:02what's Princeton?
11:03And I asked Ken this,
11:05and he gave me the same answer.
11:07It's an Ivy League school.
11:09So what's an Ivy League school?
11:10And the answer was,
11:13it's one of the best colleges in the country.
11:17Well, how can I afford that?
11:19And he said, they'll give you financial aid.
11:22Ken told me the same thing.
11:23He said, so how do I apply?
11:26They charge something like $50 to apply.
11:30They'll waive the fee.
11:33And Ken called me and gave me those answers
11:36to the identical questions he had asked
11:38his debate coach.
11:40And I asked him.
11:42And I said, okay, I'll apply.
11:45When I went to our guidance counselors
11:50in our high school,
11:52the guidance counselor said,
11:53those are nice places,
11:55but have you thought of a place like Fordham?
11:57She didn't really think that I belonged
12:02in a place like Princeton.
12:04Neither did the school nurse
12:06at our high school
12:07when I got the accept the,
12:11I don't know if you still do this,
12:13students apply,
12:14and they send you back a little card
12:16that says likely to admit it,
12:19maybe and maybe not.
12:21I don't think so.
12:22Well, we got those little cards, okay?
12:27And I got a likely-to-be-admitted card.
12:35And, yeah, thank you.
12:38And, you know, I'm a diabetic,
12:40and he has my monitor,
12:42and he's telling me my sugars are low.
12:44At any rate,
12:48the school nurse called
12:51as I walked by one afternoon,
12:54looked at me and said,
12:56why did you get a likely
12:57and number one and number two
12:59in the school didn't?
13:02I didn't know how to answer her,
13:03and I didn't.
13:04I said, I don't know.
13:06Now I would know how to answer her
13:07because number one and number two
13:10don't have full-time jobs on the weekend.
13:14And they didn't run for student president.
13:18And I did all of that
13:20and still got great grades.
13:23All right?
13:24But I didn't know enough to say that.
13:26So the life-altering moment
13:29was making the choice to come here at home.
13:33And it obviously opened the door
13:35for the rest of my life.
13:37I will tell you that I would interview
13:42often at law firms and in other jobs,
13:45and I would see my resume
13:47on people's desk in front of them.
13:51Princeton, Phi Beta Kappa.
13:54Yeah, we're always circling.
13:57This place opens your doors forever.
14:00And I have taken full advantage of that,
14:06as I hope you will.
14:09There is privilege in being accepted here.
14:13And there is an element in life,
14:16in everything you do,
14:17of a little bit of luck, too.
14:21Don't ever think that we earn our spot here.
14:26When I was a trustee,
14:29I learned that there are
14:31something like 1,600 applications
14:35of students who have perfect SAT
14:39and perfect grammar averages in high school.
14:46Now, I didn't have that.
14:48Most of you, I suspect, didn't have that.
14:51It is that little bit of luck
14:56that comes into opportunities in life.
15:00What's not luck is what do you do with it
15:03when you walk through its doors?
15:05Do you take advantage of it?
15:08Do you make something happen
15:10with the gift you've been given?
15:14And so I guess the best decision
15:17I ever made in life was coming here.
15:20Meeting the mentors I did,
15:23the professors who helped me develop,
15:26meeting the classmates who are still friends.
15:30Many of them are traveling to today's events
15:33to be here with me.
15:35It was staying in touch with an institution,
15:39with people like your president,
15:41who have become friends.
15:44But Shirley Tindblum was a wonderful friend.
15:47Bill Bowen, who was president when I was here,
15:49was an equally wonderful friend
15:51and supporter throughout my career.
15:55I think he was at the Ford Foundation, wasn't he?
15:57He was one of the big foundations near the end of the...
16:00Mellon, I think.
16:00It was Mellon.
16:01Yeah.
16:01But I stayed in touch with him throughout his life
16:05after Princeton.
16:07Yeah.
16:08And you should be in touch with all the people you meet here
16:12throughout your life.
16:14They will be supporters.
16:16Did I make a mistake at Princeton?
16:19That's an interesting question.
16:22I think I got from it as much as I knew I could then.
16:30If I, in retrospect,
16:33I should have stayed in touch more with a lot more of my friends here.
16:39You sort of get trapped into life
16:41and you forget some of the people that you were in touch with.
16:44And I think that was a mistake.
16:47There are people who I didn't stay in enough touch with.
16:51There should always be time
16:54to stay in touch with the people you meet in your life's journey.
16:59And it becomes harder and harder as your world expands.
17:03But even with that,
17:06it's important to stay in touch with friends.
17:08They carry your memory with you.
17:13And so I would say that that's something you should be aware of
17:18as you travel the rest of your life.
17:22Thank you for that, Justice.
17:24And read my book.
17:25The rest of it.
17:28I hope you heard that.
17:28And read my book.
17:30I know Leia and Jack have come down.
17:33I think what I would suggest, if this works,
17:35is that we continue to go through the questions.
17:38And then as we reach the end,
17:40I'll mention a few other students.
17:41No, because they didn't want to go back.
17:43Yeah, they want to come and go back with their friends.
17:44Okay, they're coming out now.
17:45All right.
17:45Come on.
17:46Come on.
17:47This is all right.
17:48So Leia.
17:49Leia Reddy and Jack Hasker.
17:54Hello.
17:55Thank you for the question.
17:56Thank you for being here.
17:57All right.
17:58Where is that?
17:58Oh, she's been following me around today.
18:00You want me to move?
18:01No.
18:08So next time they ask you for questions, give them the questions.
18:19Hello, Jack.
18:20How are you?
18:20Come on.
18:21As I've aged, I've lost four inches.
18:32Thank you, Jim.
18:33Okay.
18:34All right.
18:35Let me go to one.
18:37A couple of questions here around the Supreme Court.
18:41Okay.
18:42Let me start with this.
18:42You've been on the court now for more than 15 years.
18:46Can you say a bit about how you interact with the other justices?
18:50So, for example, there are stories about how Justice Ginsburg and Justice Scalia went to the opera together.
18:58Do you go out with the other justices?
19:01And should it matter to us whether or not you're doing things with the other justices?
19:13Should it matter?
19:14Well, you're skipping the first part, but go ahead.
19:19No, no, no, no.
19:21I'm trying.
19:22Justice Scalia and Justice Ginsburg had a common passion, which was the opera.
19:29And so that gave them an opportunity to socialize in a way that many of the other of us don't particularly have that as a central passion.
19:41Elena Kagan did a lot of opera with Ruth.
19:44I like dance.
19:47And none of my colleagues love dance.
19:51And so it's been very hard to get them interested.
19:55I also like jazz.
19:58That's the furthest thing for most opera lovers.
20:00And so I don't have many of my colleagues who like jazz.
20:05Imagine the one who does is Sam Alita.
20:08And it's not infrequent where I have showed up somewhere and been told that he was at a jazz thing the night before or at an earlier performance.
20:22However, that doesn't mean I don't socialize with my colleagues.
20:28Every new colleague that comes to the court, I invite to my home for dinner.
20:32When I invited the four women when I got to the Supreme Court, Justice O'Connor, Ginsburg, and Elena Kagan, Justice O'Connor said that I was the first woman justice who had ever cooked a meal for her.
20:47She was a great cook and often had her colleagues over.
20:52But my other sisters are not very good cooks.
20:58Including my newest, Ketanji Jackson.
21:01Which surprised me a little bit because she has a family.
21:06She has kids.
21:07Well, at least Justice Ginsburg did.
21:10But she wasn't her husband cook.
21:12He was a good cook, actually, Marty.
21:14I'm sorry.
21:15Marty was a great cook.
21:16Her husband was a fabulous cook.
21:20But I do.
21:21And I have been to the home of some of the others.
21:24And we do social.
21:25But we don't need to socialize that much because we see so much of each other.
21:32You have, as a judge, when you're a district court judge, you're in the courtroom by yourself.
21:38You see the other colleagues on the bench with you, but it's mostly just lunch.
21:42And it's not everybody because everybody's sort of busy.
21:45So at least when I was on the Southern District of New York, there was a judge's lunchroom.
21:51But it was not more than about 10 of about 20 of us who ever got to a particular lunch during the week.
21:58On the Court of Appeals, you sit in panels of three.
22:04And so you see those judges.
22:06But I was a group of 11, 12 circuit court judges.
22:11And there were another 10 senior judges.
22:14But we only sat in panels of three.
22:18And so during the year, I would get maybe to sit with half of my court.
22:25You're on the Supreme Court.
22:27It's what's called a permanent en banc.
22:30Every single day that we're in an argument, we're sitting together.
22:35We have lunch after arguments.
22:38We have lunch on Fridays after our conferences.
22:41Now, not everybody shows up, but somewhere from four to six or seven people show up at lunch.
22:49We have events at the court.
22:52We have barbecues.
22:54We have Christmas parties.
22:56We have historical society dinners.
23:01We have events all the time where we're socializing with the group that's there and with each other.
23:07And so there isn't that much of a need to see them outside of school.
23:19Occasionally it's okay, but I'd rather be with my other friends.
23:22And it's not, and I hope you're getting from this, that it's not from a lack of exposure to each other.
23:31We have more than the norm for a judge's life.
23:36Should we care?
23:39Okay.
23:39I think we care enough to stay in touch with each other's lives through those lunches.
23:49We hear about their kids and what they're doing.
23:52We hear about what people are reading and what movies they've seen because we talk about those things.
23:58So there is a very personal connection involved in our relationship with one another.
24:05And in many ways, we get to see the best in each other.
24:10You know, when my stepfather died, the first set of flowers I received in Florida, because that's where they lived, my mother and her husband, was from Clarence Thomas.
24:22We do reach out to each other in loss, or even in celebration.
24:31I'll get a note.
24:32I got a note.
24:33I'm not going to tell Chris.
24:34Well, I will tell you.
24:37Sam Alito and I and Elena were walking out of the robing room together, and Sam said, you know, Elena, they're honoring her with a building.
24:45And he walked out and looked at her and said, do you think they'll ever do that for us?
24:52You know, and I didn't say, you weren't trustees, and you don't go back as often as I do.
25:12But putting that aside, my point is, yes, we do have personal relationships with one another.
25:24Not opera, but certainly a connection that only people who have to work day in and day out on every case together can have.
25:35So, Justice, I'm going to skip ahead a little bit in the set of questions.
25:41I talked a lot soon.
25:43All your questions are not going to happen.
25:44I just want to make sure that we get to some more of them that the students have submitted.
25:48So I'm going to move to one that comes from Dia Crabill of the Class of 25, another of our graduating seniors.
25:55Where is she?
25:56Let's see if we can find her.
25:58She is right there.
25:59She's nearby.
26:00Go ahead.
26:00Ask the question, and you can walk out as she's asking it.
26:02Come on.
26:03She's a politics major and one of our class officers from the Class of 2025.
26:11She wants to know what advice you have for young women wanting to pursue a career in the legal field and who hope to be a judge.
26:20And I would add more generally, what advice do you have for students considering careers in law?
26:25All right.
26:25Come.
26:27And then I'll answer the question.
26:29Okay.
26:30All right.
26:31I'm going to stand aside.
26:32God bless you.
26:34Come.
26:43So, some of the smartest people I know are lawyers.
26:55And why do I think they're smart?
26:58Because they are among some of the best-read people I know, and they are people who are curious about the world.
27:10That's what you need, curiosity, to be an effective lawyer.
27:15If you think about what lawyers do, they help the world with its problems.
27:22Every field, every field, every relationship in the world comes to lawyers when they have difficulties.
27:33And so, if you're going to be a good lawyer, you have to have enough curiosity to be able to have anyone with any kind of problem come to you.
27:42And you at least have the capacity to understand the problem, and the capacity and the wanting to learn about their problems so you can advise them in an effective way.
27:55It's the same skill you need as a judge.
28:01Before I became a judge, I had had varied practice experience.
28:05I had been a criminal lawyer in state cases, but knew a lot about criminal law.
28:12I had been in private practice, and my practice was very wide.
28:15We represented an extraordinary range of clients in different fields and different work.
28:23And I did a little bit of corporate advising as well in my firm, because my clients were mostly European clients who didn't know much about American law or practice.
28:36And so, I also advised them a lot.
28:39But I got to be a judge, and the number and variety of different areas of law that I was asked to manage
28:49was such that, at the end of the first year on the bench, I gave a speech where I said,
28:57I finish every Friday night, and I go home with a head aching, not a headache.
29:08And I said, I know now why the brain is a muscle, because I'm absorbing so much information with a fire hose of water down my throat that I can feel my muscle expanding.
29:28And some weeks, and some weeks, it felt like it was going to burst with how much knowledge, new knowledge, I was taking in.
29:38If you are curious about the world and about people, about their nature and our relationships to one another,
29:47what makes us and the world tick, then you'll be a successful lawyer.
29:54And I think you'll be an even better judge.
29:58In the end, that curiosity, everybody should have.
30:03My brother, who's a doctor, often now in retrospect in his life, says that he really misses the fact that he didn't have a Bachelor of Arts degree in college.
30:18That he was so tracked on being a doctor that he didn't really learn about the world.
30:25And he's doing some of that now in his older age.
30:29But I know what he means.
30:31I was privileged to have that kind of background in college.
30:37To get into law school, you don't need to know law.
30:40They are so arrogant, most law schools, that they don't want you to come in with any knowledge about law.
30:48They believe they will teach you anything you need.
30:51Seriously.
30:52This is the, at Crystal, this is the attitude of law schools.
30:55He was in one.
30:58As a student and as a professor.
31:01So, what they want to see is that you're successful in whatever major you undertake.
31:07That you can be a student leader.
31:10And that you have some passion about you.
31:14Passion about being a leader.
31:18And about being a lawyer.
31:20And that means about being, doing something meaningful in your life.
31:25I think the advice I just gave you, I can tell you, probably would fit any area of life.
31:31If you can show any school that you really are interested in what you're doing, that you have a burning desire of some sort to make a difference in what you're doing, it doesn't really matter what you choose.
31:46And that will get you to where you want to go.
31:51In the end, every job you undertake, even as a student today, and I tell this to students everywhere, don't make promises you can't keep.
32:02Because people will remember, every late paper you submit is going to make an impression on that professor.
32:11And not one that you necessarily want them to write in a letter.
32:15Every student group that you're a part of, I can't tell you in my life how many calls I'll get to say, you know, you went to Princeton with X, you went to Yale with Y, you worked with someone in this job.
32:33What do you know about them?
32:36If it's something that wasn't positive, I try not to say anything.
32:40But if it's something that was negative, I try not to say anything.
32:50But if it was positive, I will.
32:53And so the impressions you make in your life last forever.
32:59I tell students who became my interns when I was a judge,
33:05the worst thing you can do is promise to have a project at the end of the term and hand it back to me undone.
33:16I'd rather know that you'll come to me when I give you the assignment and say, justice or judge, then,
33:22I'm leaving in two weeks.
33:24I think this is more than a two-week project.
33:26I had total respect for that.
33:28But walking away from something undone leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
33:36Those reputations stay with you.
33:40And so it's those things you need to watch, how you're building your reputation.
33:45So this next question actually draws on queries that were submitted by three students.
33:54It's about the judicial role.
33:56And the questions are all about, in particular, the role of judicial review in a democracy.
34:03So Irene Diane of the class of 2027, who's a history major.
34:09Is Irene here?
34:10Where is she?
34:12She's up there.
34:13There she is.
34:14So, Irene.
34:15She asks.
34:16Somewhere.
34:17Come on down.
34:18Yeah.
34:18Yeah.
34:18She's going to come.
34:19Yeah.
34:19We're going to come down.
34:20You've got time because I've got two more.
34:22What show is that?
34:23Pardon?
34:24What show is that?
34:25Price was right?
34:26I don't know.
34:26Yeah.
34:27The Price is Right.
34:28We'll still watch Price is Right.
34:29Wow.
34:31Asks, what are your thoughts on the role of the judiciary today?
34:36Benjamin Midler, who's a graduate student in neuroscience.
34:39Is Benjamin here somewhere?
34:41Stand up.
34:42Where is he?
34:43Right here.
34:44Oh, you're ready.
34:44You're ready for your stage moment.
34:47Benjamin Midler asks how citizens should respond to decisions with which they disagree.
34:54And Daniel Alber, who's a graduate student in chemical and biological engineering.
34:59Where's Daniel?
35:00Daniel Alber, yes, here?
35:03Oh, wait, over.
35:04Yeah, there he is, all the way in back.
35:06Okay, the lights make it hard for us to pick you out.
35:09But come on down, please.
35:11He asks whether you would advise a new country to adopt the American model of judicial review or something else.
35:21So summing it up in a way, it's, it's, how do you think about the role of judges on a constitutional court?
35:28Oh, my gosh.
35:31All right.
35:31But I'll let you figure out what parts of that.
35:33But we've got, here we go.
35:34So this is Irene.
35:36Irene Diane.
35:37How are you?
35:38I'm good, ma'am.
35:39How are you?
35:39Fine, thank you.
35:40Declaration day for you today.
35:42Yes, ma'am.
35:42Okay, I just found this out.
35:53I'm so impressed that you did the Declaration day thing, because that wasn't a thing when the justice and I were here.
35:58I just learned about it today.
36:01Benjamin Midler.
36:02Hello, Benjamin.
36:04It's a pleasure.
36:12Chris, I knew there was no neuroscience with Shirley.
36:16Yeah.
36:17When we were here, was there a neuroscience department?
36:19No.
36:20No.
36:20Okay.
36:21I thought so.
36:22I think there was neuroscience, but not a neuroscience department.
36:25Department, yeah.
36:26And Daniel Elber in chemical and biological engineering.
36:36You've got a lot of the smart kids here, too.
36:40Wow, I'm very impressed.
36:42Okay.
36:43Let me start with the last question.
36:46Okay.
36:49Justice Ginsburg was once asked whether she would recommend the American Constitution to any new countries that were being formed.
37:00And she said, no.
37:02And people were a little taken aback by that.
37:07And she said, ours is a very old constitution.
37:11And it doesn't quite work for everybody.
37:15She says there's a whole lot more modern constitutions and ways of doing things that might be better.
37:25And new countries should look at some of those.
37:27She pointed out, in particular, the South African Constitution, which was devised after they ended apartheid with gathering some of the most forward-looking philosophers on law.
37:42The thing about the American Constitution and with it, the American structure of government, okay, is that we are not a rights-giving constitution or government.
37:57It says the government can't make any law respecting your right.
38:11But it's not an affirmative giving of rights.
38:15Most modern constitutions in other countries recognize education.
38:20We don't have a right to education in America.
38:22Some of your states might have a state constitutional right, but not all 50 states do.
38:30We don't have a right to public health of any kind.
38:34We don't have affirmative rights.
38:38And many countries do.
38:40Many countries, like Canada, for example, which is a foremost democracy, I think comparable to the United States,
38:48does have a belief in their judges being protectors of individual rights.
38:56We don't have that kind of looking at our structure of government.
39:02And because of that, it does leave a lot of pockets of discretion in our other branches of government.
39:13And with discretion comes the ability to constrict those rights.
39:21You're experiencing some of that now, aren't you?
39:25It's occurring.
39:27But that's why.
39:28Because of the structure of our government.
39:32And so I'm not clear.
39:36I happen to, because I am a Supreme Court justice,
39:41I believe in our Constitution.
39:44I believe in our structure of government.
39:46I do everything necessary to uphold it and to uphold the rule of law,
39:51as I understand it, under that Constitution.
39:54But I can say that we're not the only ones who respect either the rule of law or individual rights.
40:02Other countries do.
40:03And we should be open to thinking about other ways of structuring ourselves as a nation,
40:09either as a nation or respecting that other nations have done it and done it in fairly effective ways.
40:19Okay?
40:19So that answers the first question, or the third question.
40:23All right?
40:23The first question was, what do I believe the rule of law is?
40:29Let me start by talking about the tension that most of people have about law.
40:38law is most people come to law believing that law is black and white.
40:47You think law provides clear answers.
40:51That's what you want in your stomach.
40:53That's what you think law should do.
40:57Should treat everyone equally under the law.
41:01You don't want to hear that the law is gray.
41:04You don't want to hear it, but that's why you need lawyers and why you have judges.
41:11Because if the answers were so clear, you wouldn't need us, okay?
41:17The reason lawyers exist, the reason judges exist, is because all laws, or virtually all laws,
41:27are written in general terms.
41:30Start with our Constitution.
41:31Government can't do unreasonable search and seizures.
41:37What does the word unreasonable mean?
41:41Is it, as some of my colleagues believe, fixed in time to the founding?
41:47Is it something that has to take the principles of back then, like I believe,
41:53and try to figure out how they apply to new circumstances?
41:57So I, you know, my friend, Anthony Scalia, believed that the Fourth Amendment only protected
42:06the physical intrusion by the government on your private property.
42:13So we had a very famous case, the Jones case, where the question was,
42:19could the police attach a GPS to the bottom of your car to trace your movements without a search warrant?
42:27He said no, because he believed that the police had violated your physical space by attaching the GPS.
42:36I joined his decision, but joined it in a concurrence, explaining that I think he was looking at privacy
42:46in too limited a way, given the development of technology.
42:51Because today, they don't need to attach that device to your car anymore.
42:57They can send sound waves to follow your car.
43:02And so for me, the question was not about, can the police attach something,
43:08but do you have a right of privacy?
43:11And what does that mean?
43:13That doesn't permit the police to intrude on you, even with new technology.
43:19And so those are different ways of looking at the Constitution,
43:27but they're going to lead to different answers.
43:31And that's why when you're speaking about the rule of law, it's a concept.
43:39It is not a defined answer to anything.
43:43Because that answer gets developed from case to case, from situation to situation,
43:50as judges decide those situations, and as the court reads its precedents and decides new issues.
43:58Now, that is why, what do you do when you disagree with a court's decision?
44:03The second question, okay?
44:06Let's start with the following.
44:09Don't tell me you disagree with anything until you've told me you've read the decision,
44:14the court's decision, from cover to cover.
44:19Has everyone in this room read even one Supreme Court decision from beginning to end?
44:27How many of you can raise your hand?
44:32You see how few hands are raised?
44:36I asked that question in a room full of lawyers.
44:39And not every hand goes up.
44:44Okay?
44:45Most of us citizens react to sound bites.
44:50We react to bottom lines.
44:54We don't pay attention to the reasoning.
44:58We don't just become informed enough citizens
45:02to look at how the majority, the concurrence is, the dissents.
45:07For those of you who don't know what a concurrence is,
45:10I agree with the outcome the majority reached,
45:13but I think there's a different way of thinking about it.
45:17A dissent says, I don't agree with what those guys are saying.
45:19At all.
45:22At any rate, there's a different way to approach every problem.
45:30And so when you say you're disagreeing with a court ruling,
45:36please make sure that you can articulate what in the court's approach you're objecting to.
45:46Because it can't be the bottom line.
45:49I don't decide a case by saying, is this the right outcome?
45:54If that's where I started, then I'm not an impartial judge.
45:58I'm given a legal problem.
46:01I bring to it all the legal tools I've been taught about interpretation,
46:07both of the Constitution and statutes.
46:10And I order the tools that I'm using to interpret that
46:15on the unique circumstance of each case.
46:19But I'm coming to a conclusion based on these tools
46:22that I'm using to interpret something.
46:25And so, for me, I don't control every outcome of every case that comes before me.
46:36There are people who will say, probably in this audience,
46:39that I'm opposed to the death penalty.
46:41You will never see a writing from me saying that.
46:45Ever.
46:46I do write on many death penalty cases
46:49that I don't believe should have been upheld by the court.
46:53Not because I have a personal belief that I'm opposed to the death penalty.
47:00Whether I had one or not, it's irrelevant.
47:03There are dozens of cases every year
47:06where I vote against overturning a death penalty judgment
47:12because there's no legal ground to overturn it.
47:16I only write in a death penalty case
47:20if I think that fair process hasn't been given.
47:24It's a very different thing.
47:26I can't control outcomes.
47:30My personal views, your personal views,
47:33shouldn't control outcomes.
47:36To the extent that you think personally that a law is wrong,
47:42you have an obligation as a citizen to try to change that law.
47:47Laws are made by people.
47:51People change laws.
47:54Voting changes laws.
47:57It requires effort.
47:59If there's a law you don't like,
48:03it's there because a group of people wanted that law
48:07and worked hard at getting it passed.
48:12If you don't like it,
48:13you have to band together
48:15and work at getting it overthrown.
48:19If you don't like a court decision,
48:21that's a little bit harder.
48:23All right?
48:24But you still can get Congress to change laws.
48:32And so it is a long game.
48:36It's not a short-term theme.
48:39It is an investment of time and energy and passion
48:43to get our American experiment right.
48:48Right now we're in a tumultuous state.
48:51And one that's going to require a great effort from us as a nation
48:56to figure out what path we're going down.
49:01And is it the path that we want as a collective?
49:05But it will take everyone's active participation in that dialogue
49:10and in those acts
49:13for us to ensure that the rule of law is ultimately respected.
49:18What does the rule of law mean to me?
49:22It means that we are a nation that is governed by laws,
49:26that we do expect our leaders to follow those laws,
49:30that we expect our judges, whether they agree or don't,
49:34will follow the law,
49:35and that citizens will respect our function in it,
49:40which is to do what the law requires
49:43and to insist that our citizens participate enough
49:48to make sure they are good laws.
49:52And that's not to say that there aren't some bad laws out there.
49:55As one of my favorite people,
50:01who is Rosie Abella,
50:03Rosie was a Canadian Supreme Court Justice.
50:07She's now retired.
50:08Do you know Rosie?
50:09I know of her.
50:10I don't think I met her.
50:11You really should invite her to speak here.
50:13Okay.
50:14No, seriously.
50:16Ruth Bader Ginsburg was the Rosie Abella of Canada.
50:21Rosie was leading the women's rights movement in Canada
50:27long before Ruth Bader Ginsburg was.
50:29And I love Ruth.
50:31But Rosie is a real icon up there.
50:36If any of you have subscriptions to PBS,
50:41go look for a documentary about her life.
50:44It's called Unprecedented.
50:46But what she once said is,
50:51not all laws are good.
50:54Segregation was an American law.
50:58Apartheid was a South African law.
51:02All right?
51:02Slavery was an American law.
51:05Those are not necessarily good laws.
51:08What we needed was judges who,
51:13after Brown,
51:15who,
51:16even though they had grown up in the South
51:19and grown up in a culture
51:20where segregation
51:22was their cultural identity,
51:26their bigger identity as judges
51:28was to the rule of law.
51:30And when the Supreme Court said
51:31the 14th Amendment
51:33could not tolerate segregation,
51:35those judges,
51:36despite threats to their lives,
51:39crosses burning on their lawns,
51:42threats to their children and wives,
51:45being ostracized from their friendships,
51:49many of those judges,
51:51their fraternities,
51:54kicked them out
51:55because of the rulings they were making,
51:57desegregating schools.
52:00Those are the kinds of people
52:03that I had as role models
52:05when I entered the legal profession,
52:08and they're the kinds of people
52:10with courage
52:10that I continue to follow
52:12or try to follow.
52:13But my point is
52:15that respect for the rule of law
52:19is recognizing
52:20that it is not just agreement
52:23or disagreement.
52:24It is a process that requires
52:26all of our active participation.
52:29So, Justice Sotomayor,
52:31we're coming toward the end now
52:32of what has been
52:33a wonderful hour with you.
52:34I want to close
52:35with one more student question.
52:38This is coming from Amelia Freund
52:40of the great class of 2028,
52:42who's a first year.
52:43Is Amelia here somewhere?
52:45I hope.
52:45Yes.
52:46No?
52:46Where's Amelia?
52:47No, where is she?
52:51And she's also up top.
52:52Okay, Amelia,
52:53come on down here.
52:54We're going to...
52:54I don't know what you did, Chris.
52:56We're putting all the questioners up top.
52:58Yeah, well, except for one.
52:59Except for one.
53:00We've got a couple here.
53:01Yeah.
53:01But Amelia,
53:03who is a prospective politics major,
53:05asks,
53:06what do you wish you knew
53:08when you were our age?
53:12So we'll give you a moment
53:13to think about it.
53:15No, I can answer that.
53:16Okay, we'll get Amelia's picture
53:18in a moment.
53:18Okay, when she comes down.
53:20Okay.
53:20I wish I knew
53:22that I didn't have
53:24so much anxiety
53:25over every decision
53:26I was making.
53:28Do you know how much
53:29I struggled to figure out
53:30what I was going to major in?
53:33How much I struggled to...
53:35Well, I didn't really struggle
53:36that much to come to Princeton
53:37because I didn't know
53:38enough to struggle.
53:39But I did struggle
53:41when I was here.
53:42And then where was I going
53:43to law school?
53:44And was I going to take
53:45this job or that job?
53:47What was I going to do next?
53:48And it was a constant
53:50sort of anxiety.
53:52Every decision became
53:53like life-altering.
53:55There really isn't anything
53:57that's life-altering.
53:59Whether I had come
54:00to Princeton or not,
54:02wherever I had gone,
54:03I would have made
54:04a meaningful life for myself.
54:06Coming here made it
54:07a little easier.
54:08Okay?
54:09But there's nothing
54:11you can do that's fatal
54:12except decide
54:14to commit a crime.
54:15This is serious.
54:19If you pick a major
54:22you don't like,
54:23you can switch.
54:25It might cost you
54:27a little bit of money,
54:28but it's not deadly.
54:30Money and a little bit more
54:32of it doesn't kill you.
54:34If you take a job
54:35you don't like,
54:35you stick it out
54:36for a little respectable
54:37amount of time
54:38and then you move
54:39and do something else.
54:40You can transfer
54:43if you're in a place
54:44you don't like.
54:45If you're in a college
54:46or graduate school
54:48or whatever choice
54:49you made.
54:51Investigate.
54:52Think about your options.
54:54Weigh the pros and cons.
54:56Talk to people.
54:57Make the best decision
54:58you can.
54:59And then
55:00don't have those
55:01sleepless nights.
55:03I really wish
55:04I had done
55:05less of those.
55:06A lot of wasted energy.
55:08enjoy
55:10the choice process
55:13enough to say
55:14did everything I could
55:15now I'm just going
55:16to go and do it.
55:20There is something
55:21to be said
55:22about suffering less.
55:24So I wish you all
55:26the joy
55:26of having
55:28a student life
55:29that's not marred
55:30constantly
55:31with anxiety.
55:33That is a wonderful
55:34place to come.
55:36Justice.
55:37And here's Amelia.
55:38We're going to get you
55:39up front.
55:42Freshman.
55:50I was such a silly
55:52freshman.
55:53I was so scared
55:54of being here.
55:55I never would have
55:57gone to a public lecture.
55:59You're braver than I am.
56:02Thank you, Justice.
56:03And please join me, Tigers.
56:05Sonia Sotomayor.
56:16Wonderful.
56:17That is just fabulous.
56:18So memorable.