France's president is jetting from Cairo to the Sinai, near the border with Gaza, to show that Europe has not forgotten the plight of Palestinians who are back under daily bombardment since the collapse of last month's ceasefire with Israel. But was there perhaps a more subtle message for Benjamin Netanyahu?
The visit is taking place the same day that Israel's Supreme Court rules whether the prime minister unfairly wants to dismiss the head of the Shin Bet intelligence service. The service just happened to have launched a probe into two of Netanyahu's media advisors allegedly being on the take from Qatar. Are the pair behind a disinformation campaign against Egypt, with false claims of a troop buildup at the Gaza border? Either way, France's president stands by Egypt.Just 24 hours ago, we would have been asking why Netanyahu should care what Macron thinks, as long as Donald Trump has his back. But that was before an awkward visit by Netanyahu to the White House late on Monday. Did the US president catch his guest off guard when he announced the reopening of talks with Iran or praised Turkey? And what about that phone call Trump had before meeting Netanyahu with a certain Emmanuel Macron?Produced by Rebecca Gnignati, Ilayda Habip and Oihana Almandoz.
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The visit is taking place the same day that Israel's Supreme Court rules whether the prime minister unfairly wants to dismiss the head of the Shin Bet intelligence service. The service just happened to have launched a probe into two of Netanyahu's media advisors allegedly being on the take from Qatar. Are the pair behind a disinformation campaign against Egypt, with false claims of a troop buildup at the Gaza border? Either way, France's president stands by Egypt.Just 24 hours ago, we would have been asking why Netanyahu should care what Macron thinks, as long as Donald Trump has his back. But that was before an awkward visit by Netanyahu to the White House late on Monday. Did the US president catch his guest off guard when he announced the reopening of talks with Iran or praised Turkey? And what about that phone call Trump had before meeting Netanyahu with a certain Emmanuel Macron?Produced by Rebecca Gnignati, Ilayda Habip and Oihana Almandoz.
Visit our website:
http://www.france24.com
Like us on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English
Follow us on Twitter:
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NewsTranscript
00:00The photo op bears an obvious message, France's president jetting from Cairo to the Sinai,
00:08near the border with Gaza, to show that Europe's not forgotten the plight of Palestinians who
00:13are back under daily bombardments since the collapse of last month's ceasefire with Israel.
00:19But was there perhaps a more subtle message for Benjamin Netanyahu?
00:23Emmanuel Macron near the border the same day that Israel's Supreme Court rules whether
00:27the prime minister unfairly wants to dismiss the head of the Shin Bet intelligence service.
00:33Service just happens to have launched a probe into Netanyahu media advisers allegedly on
00:39the take from Qatar.
00:41Are the pair behind a disinformation campaign against Egypt with false claims of a troop
00:46buildup at the Gaza border?
00:48Either way, France's president standing by Egypt.
00:51Now just 24 hours ago we would have been asking why should Netanyahu care what Macron thinks
00:56as long as Donald Trump has his back.
00:58But that was before a kind of awkward visit late Monday to the White House.
01:02Did the U.S. president catch his guest off guard when he announced the reopening of talks
01:07with Iran?
01:08Or praised a Syria rival Turkey?
01:10And what about that phone call Trump had before meeting Netanyahu with a certain Emmanuel
01:16Macron?
01:17Today in the France 24 debate, we're talking about Macron's Sinai signaling and with us
01:22he's former French ambassador to Qatar and Saudi Arabia, Bertrand Besancenot.
01:27Today in the risk consultancy business.
01:30Thanks for joining us.
01:31Thank you very much.
01:32Also with us, Middle East watcher Eberhard Kienle, research professor at France's National
01:36Research Center, the CNRS.
01:39Your latest book, Egypt, A Fragile Power.
01:42Welcome back to the show.
01:43Question mark.
01:44Question mark.
01:45Let's not forget the question mark.
01:46We like question marks on the show.
01:49With us from the heights of Delphi in Greece, Nomi Bar-Yakov, associate fellow at the Geneva
01:56Center for Security Policy's Global Fellowship Initiative.
02:00Good to see you.
02:02Thank you for having me on the show, Francois.
02:04And from Barcelona, Timothy Kaldas, deputy director at the Tahir Institute for Middle
02:09East Policy.
02:11How are you, sir?
02:12Doing well.
02:13Thanks for having me.
02:15In ever-growing numbers, you're listening, liking and subscribing to the France 24 debate
02:19wherever podcasts are streamed.
02:22It's just 50 kilometers away from the Gaza border, Emmanuel Macron and his Egyptian host
02:27Abdel Fattah el-Sisi traveling to Al Arish, a key transit point for Gaza-bound aid.
02:35The French president handing out roses to Palestinian patients in hospital, also visiting
02:41a play area for children and pushing for the reopening of crossing points for the
02:46delivery of humanitarian goods into Gaza, Gaza where Macron says the situation is intolerable.
02:55The situation today is untenable and has never been so serious.
02:58It's never been so serious because since October 7th when this war began and since October
03:038th, the humanitarian situation in Gaza has been critical.
03:06And because there's never been a period of complete blockade for this long, both in terms
03:11of humanitarian aid and in terms of medicines, of care and of those most at risk, unable
03:16to leave.
03:17And this is the priority for us.
03:19There have been other European officials, Bertrand Boisson-Snow, who've gone to this
03:25key transit point near the Gaza border.
03:30But the French president going at this moment, your thoughts on that?
03:35This is something new because there has been other leaders going to Gaza or all around.
03:43The problem is that we are now in a very dramatic situation nowadays in terms of humanitarian
03:48situation.
03:50And it is important that at least some leaders are putting the finger on the real situation
03:56on the spot.
03:59And it is also an opportunity for political reason to support the Egyptian government
04:05who will have an important role in trying to find a solution to the Gaza crisis.
04:12And also it is a signal for the Americans that others are involved in this process and
04:21they want to give their hand in particular to what is called the Arab plan for reconstruction
04:28of Gaza.
04:30If the Arabs are alone, it would be seen as something different, as if there are other
04:36main players that have something to say and are supporting this initiative.
04:40So it is a mixture of humanitarian priority, urgency, I would say, but also a political
04:47signal to several different people.
04:51Timothy Kaldas, is it kind of just a photo op when the French president goes to the Sinai?
05:00I think it really remains to be seen.
05:01It depends on what kind of actions are backing up this visit.
05:06We've heard Macron take a strong position at times on what's happening in Gaza and the
05:10humanitarian situation and the needs of the Palestinians, which is extremely dire.
05:14But at the same time, we've seen the French government cast doubt on whether or not they
05:19will adhere to their obligations as members of the ICC to enforce an arrest warrant on
05:25Prime Minister Netanyahu, who flew over France unimpeded on his way to Washington just over
05:30the weekend.
05:31So there's a question mark about whether or not France is serious, whether or not Europe
05:35is serious about applying what pressure is available to it on the Israeli government
05:41to press them to adhere to the ceasefire and allow humanitarian aid to get in, in compliance
05:46with their international legal obligations.
05:49Ami Baryarkov, at this point in time, since the breakdown in mid-March of the ceasefire
05:56in Gaza, is there any respite ahead?
06:00We've had, you know, more stories about journalists being targeted, about aid workers being targeted
06:06in Gaza.
06:07Yes, I think the situation is utterly dire, and there are a large number of deaths in
06:14Gaza every day, including journalists, aid workers, children, women, and it's going on
06:24basically with the world remaining silent.
06:26So I think it is very important that Macron is in Egypt at the moment, and I don't think
06:32it's just a photo op or lip service.
06:35Egypt has come up with its own proposal now for a ceasefire, the release of seven living
06:42hostages and a 70-day ceasefire, increased aid.
06:45It's a very serious proposal.
06:47It's not, oh, just one more proposal.
06:49This is, you know, at a breakpoint here.
06:51Dozens are starving and being bombarded.
06:54Aid isn't coming.
06:55It's not only that aid isn't coming, it's got no electricity.
06:57I mean, the humanitarian situation is beyond dire.
07:02And I think it's very important that Macron, as a leader of one of the big and important
07:10European countries, shows support to Egypt, not just for the ceasefire proposal, but as
07:15Bertrand said, it's really important to support the Arab plan launched by Egypt, spearheaded
07:22by Egypt.
07:23The Arab plan for reconstruction is a very serious plan on the table.
07:27It's not perfect, but it is a plan to reconstruct, to end the war, have all the hostages released,
07:35bring stability, have Israel withdraw from Gaza.
07:38It includes specific plans for a Palestinian technocratic interim government.
07:46It discusses who will govern, who will deal with security aid and all the likes.
07:50And it needs European support.
07:51And I'm sure that that is very much on the table.
07:54Whereas Israel is pretty, it's pretty clear that Israel at the same time is doing everything
07:59it can to try to ensure that Trump's plan to ethnically cleanse all of Gaza will prevail.
08:06So there is a serious issue here hanging in the balance between the two plans.
08:12One plan is to cleanse Gaza of Palestinians and create a Riviera.
08:16And of course they will be, they will be, they will have to go through Egypt because
08:21they only have a border with Egypt and Israel.
08:24And the other, you know, and the other plan is the Egyptian plan.
08:27And I think it's important that Macron familiarizes himself with a nitty gritty bit of the plan
08:34and gives it its utmost support because Trump is clearly pivoting.
08:38And now he's meeting, you know, or he's sending Whittakoff to meet with Bashar al-Assad, yes.
08:44We'll talk about the Iranians in a second.
08:46Ebrahim, in fact, there are in fact two Egypt plans, because it's long term, but in the
08:53short term there is, they're pushing the idea of a 70 day truce for Gaza.
09:01How much weight at this point in time does Cairo have in all of this?
09:05Well, my judgment is reserved about the weight of Cairo as much as the weight of Amman, of
09:12Jordan and of France.
09:14For the moment we see a welcome gesture, definitely.
09:17And I think nobody else has been as far as President Macron or to al-Arish, a place which
09:23in fact incidentally has a long history and a history also in the Arab-Israeli conflict,
09:28one of the places from which the Israelis didn't want to withdraw after the Camp David
09:32agreements.
09:33So there may be a hidden symbolic value somewhere, but I think it's not.
09:36It's simply because it's very close to the Gaza border.
09:39So I think France has certainly, I mean, the initiative is certainly welcome.
09:44But the question is, what is the weight of France?
09:46What is the weight of Egypt?
09:47What is the weight of Amman, of Jordan, if we consider it in balance with the United
09:53States?
09:54And despite some of the, say, well, misfortunes that Netanyahu had in Washington recently,
10:01nonetheless, it seems to me that the American-Israeli alliance seems to be very strong still, despite
10:07that.
10:08So in the end, I'm afraid that, well, this will possibly remain a gesture.
10:14Also perhaps to add that it's a humanitarian visit to al-Arish largely.
10:20Of course, there is the plan for Gaza, but the emphasis during this visit is on humanitarian
10:25issues, not on political issues.
10:27When we talk about Palestine, when we talk about Gaza these days in Europe and in America,
10:32of course, we talk about, at best, humanitarian issues, but very rarely about political issues.
10:37They are always in the background, and that's important to remember.
10:41No, no, I agree with you, but at the same time, there are two different things.
10:47There is a real urgency in terms of humanitarian assistance for the Gazan people, but at the
10:53same time, you had also this summit by the three leaders, and with the...
10:57Yeah, the summit with the King of Jordan and the Egyptian president on Monday.
11:00With a joint declaration, which is extremely interesting because it puts the elements that
11:05have to be presented to President Trump, and we know that we are in a period where everybody
11:12in the region is looking at what President Trump will do or not do.
11:17So it is a time where it is important to try to push, attract his attention, to make
11:23some kind of pressure, there is no other word.
11:25So the simple fact that President Macron, King Abdullah, and President Sisi called Trump
11:33just before the meeting with Netanyahu, I think is important, because at the end of
11:39the day, everybody knows that what Trump will do or not do will be a major factor.
11:46This is clear.
11:47So it is important to have some pressure on the man who is the one who has the big cards
11:54in his hands.
11:55So I think it was not only a humanitarian visit.
12:00You had the two aspects, and the political one is important.
12:03There is a priority, which is to tackle how we can organize a post-war Gaza.
12:09This is one aspect.
12:11But there is, of course, the mid-term or the long-term question, which is what kind
12:16of fair solution you can find for the Palestinian issue.
12:21Otherwise, it will mean that we will have different 7th of October every two, three
12:26years.
12:27So I think it is important to have this kind of both humanitarian but also political.
12:34I may have not made myself understood.
12:38Obviously, I mean, this is a political visit to Cairo, clearly, and I completely agree.
12:44I was just saying that the visit to El Arish is largely humanitarian, it's symbolic.
12:48And that's what the focus is on at the moment.
12:50And I'm afraid that maybe the other issues will, of course, reach President Trump's ears.
12:57But that may change again very quickly.
12:59So I'm not so sure about the impact.
13:02What is certain is that the U.S. President took that call when Emmanuel Macron picked
13:07up the phone in the company of the King of Jordan and the President of Egypt.
13:12And the timing could not have been more auspicious.
13:15It was just before Trump welcomed the Israeli prime minister to the White House Monday evening
13:20in a seemingly hastily organized second trip already by Benjamin Netanyahu to Washington
13:26since January 20th.
13:28Netanyahu did not get the lifting of the 17 percent tariffs on Israel that he wanted.
13:34What he did get was front row seats to an exclusive.
13:39We're dealing with the Iranians.
13:40We have a very big meeting on Saturday, and we're dealing with them directly.
13:45I think if the talks aren't successful with Iran, I think Iran is going to be in great
13:51danger.
13:53And I hate to say it, great danger, because they can't have a nuclear weapon.
13:58Naomi Bar-Yakov, we keenly watched back the exchange there in the Oval Office.
14:06Benjamin Netanyahu keeping a poker face throughout.
14:09Do you think he was caught off guard?
14:11Yes, I think he was caught off guard.
14:14I think he went to Washington thinking that he'll manage to negotiate a deal and erase
14:19the 17 percent, the 17 percent tariffs that President Trump had imposed on Israel.
14:25I think he was hoping to get a green light to bomb Iran with the U.S.
14:31And also, I think he was hoping to pursue the original Trump plan, which is to ethnically
14:38cleanse Gaza from Palestinians and construct a Riviera for profit, for Western profit.
14:49There was also, at one point, a comment by the U.S. president saying, any problem you
14:56have with Turkey, I think we can solve.
14:58As long as you are reasonable, you have to be reasonable, he said to Netanyahu.
15:04Thank you for reminding me of that.
15:05So that was the fourth issue, and all four very serious issues, is that Netanyahu was
15:11hoping that he would get support from President Trump to curb Turkish influence in, mainly
15:21in Syria, but also more broadly in the region, and also for Hamas.
15:27And in fact, President Trump spoke of how highly he thinks of Erdogan and how much respect
15:32he has for him.
15:33So I think, yes, that was absolutely a fourth bombshell.
15:37Timothy Kaldas, please explain to us what happened on Monday at the White House.
15:42I think, look, I think there's often a temptation to conflate Trump's very pro-Israeli positions
15:49on a number of issues, like moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and things of this sort,
15:55with an assumption that he's just, or has an orthodox American support for everything
16:00that the Israelis do.
16:01And he's a bit more all over the place in that respect, and so sometimes he can conjure
16:07up surprises like what we saw in the Oval Office.
16:09I think when he sees opportunities that suit him, he'll pursue them irrespective of whether
16:14or not it makes Netanyahu happy.
16:16Even ahead of him resuming the presidency, when Whitkoff was in the region working with
16:21the Biden administration to negotiate a ceasefire, we had reports of Whitkoff showing up in Israel
16:28during Shabbat, insisting on meeting Netanyahu while his staff tried to delay the meeting,
16:33and basically forcing his way in, in a manner of forcefulness that we had not seen throughout
16:40the duration of Biden's presidency.
16:43And so I think that while Trump's commitment to the humanitarian well-being of the Palestinians
16:50is borderline non-existent, his willingness to, his deference to Netanyahu is also not
16:55as robust as some people might assume.
16:58I think that he's an independent player who could surprise us, as he did surprise Netanyahu
17:04in the Oval Office.
17:05Also, as for his ethnic cleansing proposal during the previous meeting, I think that
17:10the kind of universal rejection of that idea from his Gulf allies, the European, and from
17:17Egypt and Jordan, kind of has led him in a direction where I don't know that he has sold
17:23on the idea or is convinced that he's going to pull it off.
17:26He gestures to it every now and again, but I'm cautiously optimistic that that particular
17:31idea that he might be disabused of, although my worry is that the Israelis might try to
17:35actualize it anyways, and then try to position Trump as having to say, well, this was my
17:42idea all along.
17:43All right.
17:44So Trump is capable of reading the room.
17:47What about when Ambassador Besançon was expressing concern aloud that Trump took that stance
17:55just after that phone call with the tripartite summit in Cairo, and that Trump can be swayed
18:02by the last person he's spoken to on the phone?
18:04Absolutely.
18:05Oh yeah, that's something we've seen consistently throughout his first term, and certainly into
18:08this one.
18:09We saw it after meetings with Erdogan, we saw it with Macron, where they were very warm
18:14with each other during his first term, and we saw a resumption of that in the last visit.
18:19But he's a very, I mean, for better or for worse, very unpredictable, and that also creates
18:25a lot of challenges, because just because he can be swayed by the last phone call doesn't
18:29mean he won't be swayed by the next.
18:31And so I think a lot of leaders have a lot of concerns about how reliable any of these
18:37commitments or statements can be.
18:39And one of the unique challenges of the Trump presidency, both the first and second term,
18:43is that you kind of have to, one, for each time the president says something, whether
18:47or not you have to take it seriously, which is not something that I think most people
18:49are accustomed to when dealing with the U.S. president.
18:52All right.
18:53So again, Nomi Bar-Yaakov, tariffs, Iran, Turkey, that trifecta of setbacks has the
19:00Times of Israel turning to baseball analogies, saying that the Israeli prime minister struck
19:07out at the White House.
19:09And we heard there Timothy Kaldas mention it.
19:14You did also hear the U.S. president talk about the Gaza Strip as fabulous oceanfront
19:22real estate.
19:23So there's limits to how much he's throwing Netanyahu under the bus.
19:29Well, we don't know he pivots.
19:32I don't know what the limit is, because I don't know what he's actually going to do.
19:36I think, you know, it's he's somewhat unpredictable in that regard.
19:41And as Timothy said, we know from Trump one that he basically reiterates what the last
19:48person who whispered in his ear says.
19:51And that, you know, is why that call, you know, from the trilateral meeting was so important.
19:57And I think it did make a difference.
19:59I suddenly got, you know, a message on my phone, a number of them, that the press conference
20:03is canceled, the one that actually you just aired.
20:07So it's not clear how Trump is going to react.
20:10And I think he does want to see an end of war.
20:13And I think, you know, if the Egyptian plan can be actualized, then clearly that's the
20:20Egyptian and Arab League.
20:21The plan has been endorsed by the entire Arab League, and it was negotiated in Riyadh.
20:25So it's a Saudi Egyptian Arab League plan.
20:28And I think, you know, it can be implemented.
20:31But it also it needs a strong Europe and it needs the U.S. behind it.
20:35And that's where we're at.
20:37Netanyahu is trying to act.
20:38Israel is taking the Trump proposal to ethnically cleanse Gaza very seriously.
20:44They created a ministerial body to actualize it.
20:49So it's very, very serious.
20:51And I think it's really, again, very, very important that Macron and other European leaders
20:59give full backing to the Arab plan and make it happen.
21:03It's not just about verbal backing.
21:05It's about implementing it.
21:07Implementing it.
21:08Bertrand Besancenot, very briefly on this point.
21:10How should Europe, how should France view these what are probably going to be indirect
21:16talks happening this Saturday in Oman between the United States and Iran?
21:21We knew that President Trump doesn't want to commit U.S. forces in the Middle East anymore,
21:29if he can.
21:30So for that reason, he made very clear, I think, to Netanyahu from the beginning that
21:35he preferred a diplomatic solution, taking into account the fact that the Iranians were
21:40in a very difficult situation nowadays, both economically, politically, and having lost
21:46their jokers in the region.
21:49So he feels that, as he's supposed to be the master of the deals, that he can use this
21:55opportunity to have a better deal than the one in 2015.
22:00So this is his priority for the time being.
22:03So he used the Omani as a mediator.
22:06At some point, it was said that it might be President Putin.
22:12So we don't know exactly how he will deal, if the Europeans or the Gulf countries will
22:18be involved.
22:19But I'm sure that, for example, and we'll talk certainly about Saudi Arabia a bit later,
22:24but it is clear that the Saudis and the Gulf countries want to be involved in whatever
22:30arrangement will be done between the U.S. and Iran.
22:34They don't want to go like what happened in 2015, and they have their good reason.
22:39So we have two dealers, President Trump, but also Mohammed bin Salman is a dealer as well.
22:45So we will see that.
22:46The Saudi foreign minister announced in Washington this Tuesday, Eberhard Kimmler.
22:55The question is, is that, again, is this a separate initiative or is this in lockstep
23:01with what the Egyptians have on?
23:03Well, I don't quite know, to be very honest, but it seems to me very obvious that at this
23:08particular moment, everybody wants to have some say in that matter.
23:14So whether this is coordinated or not, I'm not privy to these conversations, but everybody
23:18wants to have some say in what will happen in Gaza for whatever reason.
23:23Now, the question is that, of course, the Saudis want to be involved, the Egyptians
23:26want to be involved, the Europeans want to be involved.
23:30But the question is, first, once again, will they be heard in Washington, D.C.?
23:36Will they be heard in Tel Aviv or in Jerusalem?
23:38And I'm not that sure about it.
23:40And second, of course, the question is, this needs – this is a lot of money.
23:44At some stage, that plan was put at 53 – I mean, this is – of course, these figures
23:50are completely – they're just approximate.
23:52If you have 50, 53 billion U.S. dollars, I don't know quite how this was calculated,
23:58but this is money.
23:59And money is not that – well, it's rare these days.
24:04The Europeans will not pay for it.
24:05The Americans don't want to pay for it.
24:08But Trump reminds Netanyahu of the American gifts to the Israeli government and –
24:13Traditionally, when it comes to rebuilding the Gaza Strip, it's been the Gulf States.
24:16Well, yes, but – well, with the oil price falling these days and with a long history
24:26of rising debt in some of these countries and attempts to save money rather than spend
24:30money, I'm not quite sure where the money will come from.
24:35If I may add one thing, President Trump made very clear that his priority in the Middle
24:41East was to get a recognition from Saudi Arabia to Israel.
24:47And why is it so important for him?
24:50He wants to disengage, if I may say, the American forces from the region because he has other
24:55priorities.
24:56And for that, he wants to build something between – a kind of coalition between Israel
25:03and the Gulf countries, which implies, by definition, that there would be a recognition
25:08of Israel by Saudi Arabia.
25:10But Mohammed bin Salman is also a dealer, so he has a transactional concept how to deal
25:17with the Trump administration.
25:20So we know that there will be a big debate not only on oil, because this is another factor
25:26of discussion, but on Palestine at a time where Prince Mohammed bin Salman knows that
25:34he will be the next guardian of the Holy Sea – the Holy Sea, or the Holy Mosque.
25:41And by definition, he wants to appear as somebody who got something for the Palestinians because
25:49he knows what are the public opinions.
25:51So it will be a very interesting deal between Trump and Mohammed bin Salman at some point
25:57on Palestine.
25:58Timothy Kaldas?
25:59Yeah, I just also wanted to add another concern that the Gulf states have raised about paying
26:04for rebuilding Gaza is that each time they've done it in the past, the Israelis have proceeded
26:08to destroy it.
26:10And so one of the things that they've been insisting on is that any future investment
26:15in reconstruction be paired with a political process that actually brings us to a two-state
26:20solution.
26:21I think that the – and this comes back to Eberhard's point – without a political solution,
26:26we're just temporarily getting a respite from the violence that has ravaged Gaza for much
26:31of the last nearly two decades.
26:35And the Israelis kind of consistently go in with very heavy-handed approaches, destroy
26:39large sections of the Gaza Strip, kill some number of people, obviously this time more
26:44than ever before, and then other people foot the bill.
26:48The Israelis never pay anything for it.
26:49And so the Gulf states, I think, are saying, if you want us to be covering this this time,
26:56we want to see something that's durable, we want to see something that's sustainable,
26:58we don't want to have to be on top again in a few years.
27:02And I think it's not an unreasonable question.
27:04At the same time, you have obviously 2 million people living in the midst of all of this
27:09who are suffering incredibly.
27:11And these political debates, while they're very important, don't end the humanitarian
27:16suffering that's happening right now.
27:18The humanitarian suffering that the French president was talking about earlier in the
27:23Sinai.
27:24But there was perhaps another message Emmanuel Macron was sending from there.
27:27And that is support and getting the cameras to show that there are no troops where he
27:34is.
27:35That's because there has been fake news that's been, disinformation that's been spread lately
27:43by that said that there was some kind of a troop buildup of Egyptian officials accusing
27:48Israel of stoking tensions with that false claim, saying it's a threat to the peace treaty
27:54between their two countries since the Camp David accord.
27:58Media advisers to the prime minister accused of planting and or stoking those rumors as
28:03part of what the Israelis are calling Qatargate.
28:06They were the subject of a treason probe by the head of domestic intelligence.
28:10And now the prime minister wants him sacked.
28:12The Supreme Court hearing the case.
28:14It was heated.
28:15Emerald Maxwell has that story.
28:20The disruption began even before the judges had entered the courtroom with protesters
28:25shouting you have no authority and shame.
28:29Supporters of Benjamin Netanyahu's decision to fire Ronan Barr, like this protester who
28:34accuses Barr as head of Israel's internal security service of being responsible for
28:39the death of his son, a soldier killed in Gaza.
28:43The judges eventually ordered the court cleared and resumed an hour later without an audience.
28:49They're considering petitions by opposition and non-profit groups that challenge the legality
28:54of the government's move.
28:55A government decision was made to terminate the appointment of the head of the Shin Bet,
29:00Ronan Barr, before he had completed his term of office.
29:04This is an unprecedented event in the history of the country.
29:07Netanyahu said last month that he'd lost confidence in Barr over Shin Bet's failure to prevent
29:13the October 7th attack.
29:15But critics say the real reason for Barr's dismissal was that Netanyahu demanded loyalty
29:20from the head of an organisation that is meant to be apolitical.
29:24An organisation that was also investigating possible ties between Netanyahu aides and
29:29Qatar.
29:30The accusation that Qatar government basically gave money to the Netanyahu personal assistants
29:35In order to control the messages that go out of Netanyahu's chamber, we're saying that
29:39firing Ronan Barr today is against the law because of Netanyahu's conflict of interest.
29:45The latest showdown between Netanyahu and the judiciary has deepened a rift in Israeli
29:50society over the power of the courts.
29:54The judges are acting without authority.
29:57The case is 100% within the government's authority.
30:02The government's proposal to reform the judiciary has regularly drawn hundreds of thousands
30:06of Israelis onto the streets in protest.
30:10Noemi Bar-Yakov, ever since October the 7th, we've been hearing each time there was some
30:16effort at a truce of Qatari and Egyptian efforts.
30:22Is there a rivalry there?
30:23Is that also part of Qatargate that somehow a bid not just by Israel to sideline the Egyptians?
30:32No, I wouldn't say that the rivalry is between Qatar and Egypt.
30:35I would say that the rivalry is between Israel and peace.
30:41Israel is doing everything it can to prolong the war.
30:45And they're trying to, you know, do everything they can to try to divide and rule.
30:50That's sort of Netanyahu's modus operandi in every single incident on a whole range
30:58of issues, anything that you would touch.
31:02So here, again, you can see a sort of attempt to divide and rule between Qatar and Egypt.
31:06But I would say that it's not necessarily coming from the Qataris or the Egyptians.
31:11And the divide and rule we saw in that report was between Israelis themselves for or against
31:18the sacking of the head of domestic intelligence.
31:22At the end of the day, do Israelis have the stomach for a prolonged war?
31:28No, but I think, again, that actually the divide and rule is Netanyahu sowing the divide
31:34and rule.
31:35He's really divided society.
31:37So I think you need to look at where it's coming from, this division.
31:41Netanyahu and his cronies are trying to, who are now in government, to erode the judiciary
31:49completely.
31:50The legislature and the executive are the same in Israel.
31:54So the only separation of powers is between the legislature and the executive.
32:01Nomi Bar-Yakob, I'm going to interrupt you just because it's breaking news.
32:05The Supreme Court in the last minute, according to our correspondents, saying that the sacking
32:11of the head of the Shin Bet is illegal.
32:14How will that go down?
32:15Yes.
32:16Well, it's not surprising.
32:17It is illegal.
32:18I'm a lawyer, as you know, and it's very clear that it is illegal.
32:24There's a committee that is supposed to decide whether the head of the Shin Bet, the internal
32:30security forces, if there's any issue with him, it's supposed to go to the committee,
32:35including if there's any issue of confidence, and Netanyahu refused to go to the committee.
32:39So Netanyahu refused to follow the procedures that are written in stone.
32:45So time and time again, Netanyahu is trying to act outside the law.
32:50So no, it's going to be a pivotal moment yet again in the division.
32:58And I really think Israel is potentially on the brink of a civil war.
33:03A civil war, nothing less.
33:05Eberhard Kinler, let me ask you, though, is this a historic low between Egypt and Israel
33:11since the Camp David Accords?
33:14There have been other lows.
33:16It's not the first one.
33:17I'm not quite sure whether it's historical.
33:21There may be others perhaps in the future.
33:22We don't know yet.
33:24But just to come back to the issue of the troops, I think it's, I mean, in my mind,
33:29this seems to be, to my mind, this seems to be completely, completely made up.
33:32I mean, the only armed forces in the Middle East at the moment that really count are the
33:36Israeli armed forces.
33:38We see it every day.
33:39We see it in Lebanon.
33:40We see it in Syria.
33:41We see it, of course, in Gaza.
33:43We see it all over the place.
33:44We see it in the Egyptian armed forces.
33:45And there are even American congressional reports, which probably Timothy remembers
33:49better than I do, but which put the finger on the dysfunctioning aspects of the Egyptian
33:56armed forces.
33:57It's a huge army, but it's an army that has not the necessary equipment, not the necessary
34:02training and that, of course, before more important than anything else, is doing the
34:07officers especially, they are busy in business and not in the armed forces.
34:12I don't know if Emmanuel Macron planned this, Bertrand Besançon, but the fact that he goes
34:18to the Sinai and the cameras follow him, again, it shows there are no troops there, right?
34:25So was that part of his signaling?
34:27No, no, I don't think so.
34:29Clearly, he wanted to make a clear sign of sympathy for the humanitarian situation in
34:38Gaza.
34:39Going on the spot was a clear sign that, as he's sometimes seen as pro-Israeli or having
34:47some more understanding when he made, for example, this proposal of a coalition against
34:53the Hamas, but there has been in the Middle East some people who were criticizing his
34:59position.
35:00No, he wants to show that on this aspect, first, he's sensitive to the humanitarian
35:06and terrible situation, and second, don't forget that there is a French and Saudi initiative
35:14for the next June in New York, which is to have an international conference on the two-state
35:22solution.
35:24And clearly, he wanted to discuss that with President Sisi, with the King of Jordan.
35:30I know that there are a lot of discussions between the French side and the Saudi and
35:35the Qatari as well to prepare this conference.
35:39So it is an opportunity both to show a sense of sympathy for the humanitarian catastrophe
35:45nowadays, but also to prepare what could be a long-term solution for the Palestinian situation.
35:54So this is clear.
35:55All right.
35:56Emmanuel Macron.
35:57Can I come in on this?
35:58Sure.
35:59Timothy Collins, go ahead.
36:00I just, in general, what we've seen from Netanyahu for the duration of this conflict and even
36:03before it is that he's been something of an agent of chaos.
36:06So when I was on this program at the beginning of the war on Gaza in 2023, we speculated
36:11that he had a vested interest in the perpetuation of hostilities to avoid being held accountable
36:16for the corruption case that he was facing.
36:19And even when it came to this Qatar Gates investigation, he had to leave his corruption
36:23trial early to go to speak to police investigators about this other scandal.
36:28And so he's creating tensions with the Egyptians.
36:31He is creating hostility on the border with Syria, despite the fact that the new government
36:35has made it very clear that they don't want hostilities with the Israelis.
36:39He's undermining the political transition in Lebanon by refusing to withdraw.
36:43And he's perpetuating the hostilities in Gaza, despite the ceasefire agreement that he agreed
36:48to, and that could have freed the hostages that remain.
36:51And it's because I think at the end of the day, his political survival is linked to the
36:56continuation of hostilities indefinitely.
36:59Because if there was a reckoning, both around his security failures and his corruption and
37:03his attempts to dismantle the authorities of the judiciary that predate October 7th,
37:09and were already a source of enormous domestic tensions in Israel, that his days as a political
37:14leader might be numbered.
37:15But if he can maintain this violence for long enough, perhaps he can move beyond all the
37:20scandals that have accumulated.
37:21However, they continue to accumulate.
37:23And I do wonder whether or not we might finally see the end of Netanyahu as prime minister
37:28of Israel.
37:29I've been prime minister since I was in middle school.
37:33That is a while.
37:35That makes me feel old.
37:36Thanks, Timothy.
37:37Timothy, let's get back to Meir Mechel for a second.
37:42He's not just there for humanitarian work.
37:45He was also there for business.
37:47He came with two Rafale jets, a reminder of the defense contracts that have been signed.
37:55And we saw that trip on Monday in the Cairo Metro, a metro run by Paris's public mass
38:04transit operator, the RATP.
38:07There are the images of Sisi and Macron passing the turnstile with the car.
38:14You don't, didn't jump the turnstile like Jacques Chirac did at the inauguration of
38:18the station, famously.
38:21Timothy called us.
38:22Tell us, first of all, about the Cairo Metro and the optics of this scene.
38:27Certainly.
38:28I mean, France's economic engagement with Egypt has been extensive throughout Sisi's
38:34tenure.
38:35And it started really when, after Sisi conducted the coup d'etat and also massacred roughly
38:42a thousand protesters in a single day, the Obama administration at the time started to
38:48delay the delivery of arms to Egypt and start to increase conditionality on the transfer
38:53of those weapons.
38:54And so the Egyptians, to kind of diversify their sources of armaments and reduce their
39:00reliance on the United States, pivoted and made a huge order of Rafale fighter jets,
39:05which was important at the time because the production line of those jets was at risk
39:09of being halted entirely because there were no international orders at the time.
39:13And Sisi rescued the production line by making this order.
39:18And this kind of began a very strong relationship between France and Egypt on arms sales.
39:24And in a parliamentary report between 2012 and 2021, Egypt ordered 12.3 billion euros
39:30of arms, while the entire EU combined only ordered 12.6.
39:34So Egypt invested heavily in this relationship, but at the time also accumulated enormous
39:40debt, which has brought the state to the brink of insolvency in the past couple of years.
39:47And tell us about the metro.
39:49What's it like?
39:52It seems to be nicer than the previous ones.
39:54It has air conditioning, so that's exciting, I think, for everybody.
39:57Okay.
39:58The Cairo leg also included an unannounced visit to the famed Khan El Khalil Souk, the
40:05market, the old market, which includes the fabled Fishaoui Cafe, these images making
40:12for memes aplenty on Egyptian social media.
40:17Eberhard Kindler, your reaction when you look at those images there of that visit to the
40:24Souk?
40:25Well, I mean, once again, I think we are here and it's a visit which is a large, an important
40:31gesture to the Gazans, to the Egyptians.
40:34It's very important, but it does not change that much on the ground, really.
40:38Not necessarily politically with regard to Gaza, not necessarily for the Egyptians, because
40:43if we say, and Timothy, once again, he mentioned the Rabarabi massacre when Sisi came to power.
40:51We are here in a country in which not everybody is able to go to the Fishaoui Cafe.
40:56People are living through an enormous economic crisis, which has been precipitated by the
41:00government itself, which also, of course, ultimately does not strengthen the Egyptian
41:05position internationally.
41:08Egypt is today basically a bankrupt country, as is Jordan.
41:12We got in the new budget between 53% or 57% of the revenue, of expenditure, which goes
41:22into debt service and repaying debt, debt accumulated by this particular government,
41:28which is huge.
41:29So we are talking about a country which is certainly very pleasant to be in for a tourist
41:34or for a day or two, but for the majority of Egyptians is not a very pleasant place
41:38to be, apart from the repression.
41:41And the same applies to Jordan.
41:42And that is, of course, something that we also need to take into account when we think
41:45about a plan B and when we think about supporting an initiative, which is an Egyptian, Jordanian,
41:53French initiative.
41:54We should not forget what happens in these countries and that that, of course, does not
41:59strengthen necessarily these initiatives.
42:02Bertrand Mazans-Loeb?
42:03No, it is absolutely true that you have these economic difficulties, both in Egypt and in
42:08Jordan.
42:09But for exactly this reason, the Gulf countries are particularly important, because not only
42:16for the political reason I talked about the deal between Mohammed bin Salman and President
42:22Trump on the Palestinian case, but also to assist both Egypt and Jordan.
42:29All of us know that it will be the Gulf countries that not only have been doing, but will keep
42:36doing an assistance to these two countries, because they are, in particular, Egypt, are
42:41too big to fail.
42:43And clearly, they are important for the stability of the whole region.
42:47So just to say that the whole of the Saudis and the Gulf in general, but the Saudis in
42:54particular, will be huge in the coming weeks and months on both the economic side, the
43:01humanitarian and the political side.
43:03Just a quick question, a quick reaction to what Eberhard Kindler just said, which is
43:07you're talking about how there's the whole humanitarian, human rights aspects of it.
43:15Last time that Macron went to Egypt, the French press talked a lot about it.
43:20Am I right in saying that they're talking less about it this time?
43:24I would say that in a world where the human rights are everywhere or nearly in a bad situation,
43:33I have the feeling that the focus in the media are, in general, less putting on this question,
43:42because we can see what Putin is doing.
43:44We can see what Netanyahu is doing.
43:48We know that President Trump is not interested in human rights.
43:52So there is a way, I don't know if it is seeing that they can't do much about it, but there
44:00is something like that that does exist.
44:02But it doesn't mean that President Macron didn't say a word about human rights.
44:07And sometimes it is more efficient when you do things in a discreet way than when you
44:12are doing it in a public way.
44:14Final word on this.
44:15Timothy Kaldas, ordinary Egyptians, are they happy Macron came or indifferent?
44:22I think some people might be happy to see him, but overall indifferent.
44:25The suffering of the population, as Eberhard was alluding to, has intensified substantially
44:31with the economic deterioration.
44:33And there are also, I think, a lot of Egyptians who fear that the financial support that Egypt
44:37is receiving from the West is in part for their complicity in what's happening in Gaza.
44:43And that fear is widespread.
44:45And so there's a lot of Egyptians who have mixed feelings at the very least, if not concerns
44:51about seeing these Western leaders embracing President Sisi while the population of Gaza
44:57suffers so immensely.
44:59We'll have to leave it there, unfortunately.
45:01Timothy Kaldas, I want to thank you so much for joining us from Barcelona.
45:03Nomi Bar-Yakob for being with us from Delphi in Greece.
45:08Bertrand Besançon, Eberhard Kindler, thank you for being with us here in the France24
45:13debate.