Amid the ongoing unrest over Aurangzeb's tomb in Maharashtra's Sambhajinagar, senior RSS functionary Sunil Ambekar said Mughal emperor Aurangzeb was not relevant today.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Good evening and welcome. You're watching the NewsTrack. I'm Rahul Kanwal.
00:05Is Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb and the debate around his tomb relevant to the issues we face in India today?
00:13After the RSS said yesterday not relevant, that debate now gaining new currency and is my top focus on the NewsTrack tonight.
00:22Violence and protest.
00:35Big political showdown. Aurangzeb debate rages on.
00:42RSS leader says Mughal ruler not relevant.
00:48Aurangzeb legacy war. Big focus on NewsTrack.
00:56300 years later, Mughal ruler Aurangzeb has been resurrected.
01:01The debate over his legacy ignited after the release of the film Chhawa continues to rage on as protests and the political war awards continue.
01:09Yogi Adityanath has declared that anyone glorifying invaders and tyrants should be charged with treason.
01:15After the RSS national publicity in-charge Sunil Ambedkar said that the Mughal emperor is not relevant anymore.
01:28A violent escalation over protests against Aurangzeb caused to demolish the Mughal emperor's tomb.
01:40And a film that portrayed him as a tyrant.
01:48The debate over Aurangzeb has been reignited.
01:52With opinions polarized, RSS leader Sunil Ambedkar has asserted that Mughal ruler holds no relevance in today's India.
02:02Is Aurangzeb relevant today? Do you think the tomb should be moved?
02:06I think not relevant.
02:10As the Aurangzeb row escalates, Uttar Pradesh chief minister has labelled endorsing invaders like Aurangzeb treason.
02:33The Mahayati government in Maharashtra has also taken an aggressive stand on Aurangzeb.
02:40We will not allow Aurangzeb's tomb to be glorified in Maharashtra.
02:45We will not allow it to be glorified.
02:47If anyone tries to glorify it, we will not stop them.
02:57Hero or villain, relevant or irrelevant, the 300-year-old ghost of Aurangzeb continues to haunt in 2025.
03:06Bureau report, India Today.
03:10It was a rumor over an anti-Aurangzeb protest that triggered violence in Nagpur on the 17th of March.
03:17The probe into the violence is now intensifying, with cops scanning social media handles and links to Pakistan and Bangladesh.
03:24Meanwhile, the alleged mastermind in this case, Fahim Khan, has been charged with treason.
03:39Trouble mounts with the alleged mastermind behind the Nagpur violence on Monday over the burning of an Aurangzeb effigy.
03:49Fahim Khan is charged with treason and is accused of instigating rioters, spreading rumors and endangering India's unity.
03:59Other than Fahim Khan, six others also booked for treason.
04:05Over 50 objectionable social media posts which spread rumors have been taken down and 140 social media posts are under the radar.
04:13Over 84 rioters have been arrested.
04:35Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis vowed the rioters will be brought to justice.
05:05The Congress said Fadnavis should take responsibility for the riots and accused the CM of fanning hate.
05:36Is this the CM's job? Is this the CM's job?
05:44How can a person sitting on a constitutional post give such an irresponsible statement?
05:48As tensions simmer, artificial walls now surround Aurangzeb's tomb in Sambhaji Nagar.
05:56Entry into the mausoleum is now restricted and cell phones are not allowed.
06:03With Mustafa Sheikh and Sumi Rajappan, Bureau Report, India Today.
06:11So is Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb relevant in today's day and age?
06:17The Chief Spokesperson of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh said not relevant when this question was posed to him.
06:24Many in the right wing fold though believe that these are important debates from history which need to be revisited and wrongs that need to be righted.
06:34Then there are those who say look forward, there are many real challenges which our country, our society, our people face here and now.
06:40That's where our energies should be directed.
06:43To give us both sides of this perspective and to help you form an opinion, I'm joined on the news track tonight by Desh Ratan Nigam.
06:50He's an advocate in the Supreme Court, is actively associated with the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh.
06:56I have with us also on this broadcast S Irfan Habib.
06:59He's a historian of science and modern political history.
07:02Welcome Habib sahib.
07:03I have Professor Anand Ranganathan, author and consulting editor at Swarajya.
07:07I have well known advocate in the Supreme Court Sanjay Hegde.
07:11We have Varis Pathan from the AIMIM and Sriraj Nair from the Vishwa Hindu Parishad.
07:17Members of which were involved in the clashes in Nagpur which have been dominating the headlines over the last 72 hours.
07:24I want to go across first and foremost to Desh Ratan Nigam to try and understand
07:28what the RSS actually thinks of this issue as best as you can explain to our viewers.
07:33Because when the question was asked right ahead of the Akhil Bharatiya Pratinidhi Sabha in Bengaluru
07:38about whether the debate over Aurangzeb was relevant, the answer was not relevant.
07:45Can you just try and explain what the RSS is actually trying to say beyond just the words not relevant.
07:52Well Rahul in fact it was just a one line statement given by Sunil Ambedkar ji,
07:58the All India Prachar Pamuk of the RSS.
08:01And RSS if you see the context in which it was said and also the previous history of the RSS on such kind of a subject.
08:10It is very clear that we consider Mughals as the leaders and we also consider them to be a part of history.
08:19Aurangzeb is a part of history but we certainly do not consider him to be a part of our heritage.
08:25This is a very fine distinction that we maintain.
08:28And it is an admitted fact that Aurangzeb was a tyrant, monster,
08:34developed a kind of a parasitic system where his own family enriched himself
08:40at the cost of the common people who were made miserable.
08:45And 7.3 million people also died of the induced famine by Aurangzeb.
08:53And therefore to eulogize him, to consider him as a hero of this nation is certainly not done.
09:01And also the people who were trying to worship his grave and offered namaz,
09:06please understand that in Islam a grave cannot be a permanent or pakka thing
09:12and you cannot worship on the grave which is non-Islamic.
09:15And some kind of a people are probably trying to mislead people considering him to be a hero.
09:21In fact if you look at...
09:23So let me pause you to ask a straight question.
09:25There is a big debate raging over whether the grave, the maqbara of Aurangzeb should be shifted out,
09:30should be removed from where it is.
09:32Where does the RSS in your view come out on that, sir?
09:35See we have not applied our mind on it but I will give you an example.
09:39In Jannat-ul-Baqi which is in Medina, prior to 1925 Prophet Muhammad and his relatives had the pakka kabr there.
09:48However in 1925 the Saudi Arabian government destroyed, demolished all those graves
09:55of Prophet Muhammad and his relatives saying it is anti-Islam.
09:58That's the reference point if you want to have a debate on it.
10:02One can have a debate on it but RSS has not applied its mind on it.
10:06Okay. Sriraj Nair from the Vishwa Hindu Parishad.
10:09Now you got the RSS itself saying that this debate frankly is quite irrelevant.
10:13I mean they are saying he is part of our history, definitely not part of our heritage.
10:17How does the Vishwa Hindu Parishad which is a co-part of the RSS
10:21really look at the RSS at its apex annual body,
10:25the Akhil Bharatiya Pratinidhi Sabha sending a message to the people
10:29that this debate frankly isn't relevant?
10:35Well as the earlier panelist said it was just a one liner
10:40and the fact remains that Aurangzeb is a part of, definitely is a part of history
10:45but not a part of the heritage as you rightly said.
10:48But the fact also remains that he was an invader.
10:51He demolished hundreds and hundreds of thousands of temples.
10:54He demolished Mathura and Kashi.
10:56He converted lakhs of Hindus to Islam by force
11:00and his grave being in Maharashtra is a big block.
11:05We don't want that grave or whatever it is in Maharashtra.
11:11Where will it go? So once again that's where he died.
11:14Siraj Nair, that's where he died.
11:16Usually where people die is where their graves are laid.
11:19That's where they are laid to rest.
11:21That's where their graves are. That's a fact of history.
11:23That's where he died.
11:27Whatever it is but there are people who are going and paying respect to his grave.
11:32He cannot be made a hero.
11:34And in the history, in the world history wherever you see
11:38whenever the rule of invaders were put to an end
11:41when Indian genius rule came into existence
11:44all the signs of invaders were vanished.
11:48They were supposed to vanish. They were eradicated.
11:50Why? Because Congress and the so-called secular party
11:54treated Muslims as their damas, as their son-in-laws.
11:57That is the only reason. This is appeasement politics.
12:00That is the only reason this grave is in existence.
12:03Otherwise after 1947 when Bharat got independent
12:07all the signs of invaders and brutal barbaric so-called rulers
12:13should have been eradicated but that didn't happen.
12:15So we want now this is the right time.
12:17After 500 years the Ram temple has come into existence.
12:21After really 70 years now we kicked out article 370.
12:26Now this is the right time.
12:28So all these signs of invaders should be out of our country.
12:32We have to live in self-respect.
12:36Anand Ranganathan, what do you make of the fact that the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh
12:40has now come out and said that this debate is quite irrelevant.
12:43I remember your comments from the last time
12:45when we were debating a similar topic and you said no
12:48it cannot be relevant because this is a part of our history.
12:52This is what our people have suffered and therefore we need to push back.
12:55But the RSS seems to be sending a very strong message to society saying no this is not relevant.
13:00Good evening Rahul and good evening to my fellow panelists.
13:05Not for the first time may I disagree with the RSS if that is their view.
13:09Because it leads to something that must be talked about that's more at a different philosophical level.
13:17Let me explain. Rahul why should anything be relevant?
13:21Especially the past. For a scientist why is history relevant you might say.
13:25Look history is relevant. Historical characters are relevant for they give us a space.
13:31Establishes our culture, our civilization. They mark us on this evolutionary timeline.
13:37They allow us to learn from our mistakes to be inspired by our heroes, our discoveries, our victories.
13:43Relevance especially historical relevance becomes important when truth is deliberately hidden.
13:49When justice is deliberately denied. When historical crime is deliberately not corrected.
13:54Otherwise tell me where was the need for the Ram temple to be built?
13:58Where was the need for so many other characters to be remembered?
14:01Rahul Aurangzeb was Baghdadi 350 years before ISIS.
14:05He imposed tax only on non-Muslims, beheaded Guru Tegh Bahadur and Tom Shahzada's alive,
14:11decapitated Sambhaji Maharaj, demolished Kashi Vishwanath, murdered 4.6 million Hindus.
14:16This is well documented principally through Maseer-e-Alamgiri.
14:19So we know that Aurangzeb was a monster. Now when millions still celebrate him
14:24and millions get aggrieved by it, some say why rake up historical injustices?
14:29Why can't we forget what Aurangzeb did 300 years ago?
14:33Well Rahul as I say nations weaken not because of their past but rather by how they are taught it.
14:39And unfortunately for 70 years we've been taught to forget historical injustices.
14:43From Somnath to Kashi Vishwanath, Babarpur to Bhaktiarpur, Allahabad to Aurangabad,
14:48Martin to Mathura, these injustices have deliberately been made visible
14:53as though to lionize the debasement, celebrate the humiliation.
14:56And the irony is that the same people who counsel us to forget raking up Aurangzeb and his genocides,
15:02who have taught us to forget historical injustices, drilled this self-loathing in us.
15:06These same people want others to fight historical injustices around the world.
15:11They revel in burning Manusmriti. They want reparations and reservations
15:15for the historical injustices committed by the upper caste.
15:18They run 1619 slavery awareness campaigns.
15:22They demand apologies from nations for historical injustices towards the indigenous people like the aboriginals.
15:27They condemn barbarians of the West either to worship like the Confederacy generals,
15:32Rhodes, Churchill, Pizarro, Murray, Colston, Leopold.
15:35They celebrate their roads and buildings being renamed, their statues being brought down.
15:39But here in India, this same set eulogizes barbarians like Tipu Aurangzeb, Babar Khilji.
15:45Why? Because it is a heady mix of hatred for Hinduism and love for Jihadism.
15:50Hatred for India and love for its breakup. Tell me, is there a Hitler road in Tel Aviv?
15:55Why rake up some might say Hitler and his genocides? Are they relevant?
15:59Why support punishment for Holocaust deniers?
16:02Why throw all those who celebrate Nazism in jail? Rahul, just one minute.
16:06Past is relevant only because it defines our civilization.
16:09But to understand how, we first have to define it.
16:12So what is civilization? How do you define it?
16:15Is it an idea to be thrust upon the subject so they carry it forward?
16:19Is it the placement of forks on the left and spoons on the right of resplendent crockery?
16:23Is it sartorial splendor? Is it words uttered or written?
16:26Is it science? Rahul, is it ease of living? Is it wealth? Is it money?
16:30Many of the worst tyrants have killed millions, wiped off entire races.
16:34Even continents have been poets, artists, proponents of science.
16:37But would you call their endowments as promoting or harboring a civilization?
16:41To me, Rahul, just 30 seconds. The mark of a civilization is this unquenchable thirst
16:46of man to demand justice for his ancestors, to correct a historical wrong.
16:50For that exemplifies a continuity, an idea, a memory that can never be erased
16:54that is worth fighting for and preserving.
16:57It makes justice greater than the sum of its parts.
17:00And that is why civilizations are not fleeting, Rahul, like empires.
17:03And that is why history is a medicine, why catharsis is a cure.
17:07It is confounding to me as a scientist because I am but a bunch of cells,
17:11here today, gone tomorrow. But till the time I am alive,
17:14this concept of striving to correct a historical injustice is vital
17:18because it defines who I am, what civilization I am part of,
17:21that erasing my genes cannot erase my civilization.
17:25The concept of justice is like memory. It keeps getting passed on until realized.
17:30Okay, you made a very impassioned argument and I want to put that to Sanjay Hegde
17:34because there are many who would watch this broadcast who would agree with the idea
17:37that all that the Britishers looted from our country, a lot of it,
17:42to the extent that is possible, should be brought back.
17:45Because this is our civilization, what happened to us was wrong.
17:49And in the same way, when the likes of Anand Ranganathan argue
17:52that here is a barbaric invader who desecrated temples,
17:57pushed non-Muslims to pay extra taxes, that this is simply unacceptable,
18:03there is no reason he should be venerated in the same way as no one venerates Hitler.
18:07Well, I don't think anybody venerates or worships Aurangzeb.
18:12And if anybody worshipped Aurangzeb, Aurangzeb as a good Muslim would probably have him executed,
18:18saying that nobody other than Allah could be worshipped. But be that as it may.
18:22I am afraid that I do not share Mr. Ranganathan's view of the past.
18:27My view of history is not that it is one team versus the other,
18:32whether Manchester United won in 1971 or Arsenal won.
18:38And that my team should have won etc. etc. etc. I do not live in the past.
18:43The point is that if Aurangzeb's grave is removed, the rupee does not increase one paisa in value.
18:53People do not get jobs. It is not as if hunger vanishes.
18:59It is not as if jobs are created. What is also likely is, and we have seen in just a foretaste of it,
19:07that there might be social unrest of a character which will have an economic impact.
19:14So therefore, when we built a new republic in 1947, we basically said,
19:21chhodo kal ki baate, kal ki baat purani, naye josh se likhenge, milkar naye kahani.
19:26And I stand with that. The temples of modern India were built when we built our new dams.
19:34We did not at that stage decide, and it was an 80% orthodox Hindu majority constituent assembly
19:42which made significant constitutional choices for a new republic
19:48and with choices we are pursuing over the past 75 years.
19:53We have decided that we are a country that will live together, irrespective of whom you worship,
20:01irrespective of whom you adulate. We have the constitutional preambular principle of fraternity
20:11which keeps this country together. Anything that retards that progress is to my mind, anti-national.
20:20And anything which leads to protests from either side is simply not to be countenanced
20:30much less given fuel to. And that's what's happening today.
20:36Today there is a whole industry which seeks to fuel these ancient animosities and conflicts.
20:44As a people, we are confident Indians looking to the future.
20:51We are not stuck in the past. And just to end, it's like that old Hindi song,
20:58Sikandar ne Porus se keeti ladayi, keeti ladayi main kya karoon.
21:02I am not going to go and litigate saying that my forefathers who could have been Porus
21:10lost to Alexander and therefore I will hate all Greeks. I live in the present, I look to the future.
21:17The past is interesting but it cannot dominate or create my life.
21:24You are making the point that no one is venerating Aurangzeb but Irfan Habib, we did see images
21:31and they are coming up on your screen of people say Sultan Aurangzeb Zindabad.
21:37There was that kind of sloganeering. You are a historian. In your understanding
21:43are there large percentage of people or very small percentage of people in India at this moment
21:50who think of Aurangzeb as a hero because A, it's a reality of history, there is no doubt about it.
21:55B, do we really need people to go out and start saying Sultan Aurangzeb Zindabad?
22:01First of all, I immensely disagree with what Ranganathan said before.
22:10The whole idea of history, not only Indian history but the history globally.
22:15I don't believe in that sort of history. In any case, he has a right to believe in what he wants.
22:20Point is Aurangzeb is venerated by maybe a minuscule Muslims whom I call stupid.
22:28No, I don't think Aurangzeb represented Islam. Aurangzeb was one of the rulers with all his weaknesses,
22:35brutalities, etc. And these brutalities are immense. He is a 17th century ruler.
22:41Look at 17th century France. What was Louis XIV doing? Driving out Protestants from Catholic France.
22:52Peter the Great doing similar things in Russia. There are so many other examples.
22:56So Aurangzeb represented 17th century. So I have no apology for Aurangzeb at all.
23:02He was brutal to his family, he was brutal to his father, brutal to his brothers and brutal to fellow Muslims who were Shia,
23:09brutal to Hindus. So he represented a different worldview with which I don't agree at all.
23:15And those who venerate him are stupid for me. They have no reason to venerate him.
23:20He represents hardly, not even 1.1% Islam at all. So he is a ruler who should be left aside and
23:30dubbed in history. No, nothing at all. Now, second, the example Nigam Sahib gave of the graves being
23:42Prophet's grave and the Prophet's family's grave and all that. That example is not really a very good example to give.
23:50I am not defending Aurangzeb's grave. You throw it out today. It doesn't matter.
23:56But quoting that example as un-Islamic is un-Islamic because it was done by Wahhabis.
24:06Wahhabi Islam is not really Islam. Wahhabi Islam is an ideology. And this is what Saudis have been following all these years.
24:14And the petrodollars have taken that Wahhabi ideology Islam to all parts of the world.
24:22So that way, that was a very different sort of Islam. It's not Hanafi Islam which is in majority in India.
24:29Wahhabi Islam is a little minority which exists in India. So these Wahhabis did this to the graves of the Prophet
24:38which were objected to by the Ottomans and the Darwishi Islam, the Sufi Islam. But they were not really
24:47stopped by anybody because they had power. They had power, they had money, they had petrodollars.
24:52And all that is being used even now. So that example I think is…
24:56Okay. Now, Waris Pathan?
24:58Second example, just let me finish. Let me conclude.
25:01Okay.
25:02Second, last thing I want to say is we have to stop living in history.
25:07Nobody can say that Aurangzeb did not commit brutalities, atrocities, etc. All that happened in history.
25:14So many atrocities happened during 200 years of colonization. We don't talk about it.
25:20We immediately go back to the Mughals. We also need to talk about exploitation, economic exploitation, social exploitation,
25:28conversion, all sorts of issues which happened in 200 years. East India Company too, the British rule.
25:33So we just don't even talk about it. So point is we need to engage with historical facts.
25:40We don't have to live in history. We have to learn from it. We have to learn and unlearn.
25:45That is the only use of history.
25:47Waris Pathan, you know, the AIMIM has actually come out in support, pushing back very strongly against
25:53what's happening in Nagpur at this moment. But do you agree with those people coming out,
25:58supporting Aurangzeb, chanting slogans in his favor? Because if there is an acceptance that here is
26:04essentially a barbaric, evil ruler who did what was right for him at that time but caused a lot of depravity
26:10and caused a lot of hardship to the locals, then there is an acceptance.
26:14Everybody feels the same way, like a lot of people would feel the same way about the Jewish Holocaust.
26:19It almost seems as if, in this case, what Aurangzeb did, what his life stood for, the barbarism he perpetrated
26:27is being celebrated and that is why people are so rankled and so irked.
26:34Well Rahul, violence of any kind is condemnable. We don't support violence. Nobody has the right to take law into their own hands.
26:41And so everybody is involved in the violence. We are sure that the police machinery will definitely look into it and they will be arrested.
26:47And what we have seen just since yesterday was that 7-8 people from the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bajrang Dal were
26:52arrested, kudos, before the magistrate and immediately they were granted bail.
26:56While on the other side 51 Muslims have been arrested but they are still languishing in jail. But we hope the police will do an impartial inquiry.
27:02But here coming back to the moot question Rahul which you posted was that, how is it relevant today?
27:07What is the relevancy of Aurangzeb? So I would in my opinion say that it is totally irrelevant to dig up a 400 year old story.
27:15The Indian Muslims in my opinion, present day Indian Muslim does not want to go back to that era. They are interested in development.
27:21The Indian Muslims of the present era want employment, they want education.
27:25Mr. Pathan you didn't answer my question. My question was, images came to light where some people were chanting slogans in support of Aurangzeb.
27:37If everybody is on the same page in terms of Aurangzeb being evil, then we don't need to go about digging the wrongs of history.
27:44But if there are some people who are celebrating his life, venerating him as some kind of a hero, then that will get a lot more people highly agitated.
27:52Well if somebody is using such kind of provocative slogans which are hurting the sentiments of other side,
27:59then there are police and law machine that is there to take course.
28:02But here what we have seen, what will you call provocative statements Rahul, where the Chief Minister of Maharashtra on the floor of the assembly
28:10stands up and says that the Chhawa movie is responsible for the hatred against Aurangzeb.
28:14And this Deputy Chief Minister comes forward and says that, whosoever wants to learn history must go and watch Chhawa film.
28:20This is not provocative, this is not incitement. What will you call provocative when their own people from the BJP,
28:25their ministers come before the nation time and again and they give provocative statements.
28:29Masjid ke andar guz guz ke musalmano ko maarege, Aurangzeb ki khabar ko khod ke le jaayenge.
28:33Please, I will come with you, let's dig up together and let's take it away.
28:37If that ensures development for my country, I am ready for the drought.
28:42Let you, me, everybody, let Anand also come with us, we will go there with eggs in our hand and we will dug up.
28:47But provided, let the development of our country take place. Let people get education.
28:51Let the unemployed youth get employment. And when will the 15 lakhs come in my account?
28:55So to divert the mind of the nation from these basic issues, the BJP has been very well given a point
29:00by the Samajwadi party MLA Abu Azmi. Since the last 17 days in the country, from the first day of the budget session we started,
29:07this thing is going on. Every debate, Aurangzeb, people have totally gone away from the basic issues.
29:12The BJP, it is for their benefit. They wanted to polarize the situation for their own peculiar gains and benefits.
29:17They are getting. They were totally cornered in Maharashtra. People are asking their questions on the law and the situation in the state.
29:23The Pune rape case, what happened there. Then the Bunde, the murder case that's what's going on.
29:28All these things have now gone to shambles and now everybody is talking only about one thing.
29:32What have the Indian Muslims got to do with Aurangzeb? Take him, we want education, we want development, we want employment, Rahul.
29:39We don't want this. But the BJP now, still they are going ahead with that. Still they want to divert the mind of the nation.
29:45Now that is one thing, other will come. But why don't they stick to the particular thing?
29:49Why don't they talk about development? Why do they want to rack up the issue?
29:52You make an important point. Let me put that question to Anand Ranganathan. Varys Pathan's argument is,
29:57how can the modern day young Muslim be held accountable for what one individual Aurangzeb did 400 years ago?
30:05How is that fair and how is that right? Anand Ranganathan.
30:08No, the modern Muslim is not accountable in the same way that a modern Brahmin should not then suffer reservations and quotas
30:16because how is he responsible for what his ancestors might have done to the lower classes?
30:22Do you see where this argument is going? Now, I want to make a couple of points out here.
30:26It's embarrassing for a scientist to say this. But you know, for some of the panelists out here
30:32who seem to have snorted the line between history and propaganda, let me inform them
30:36that hundreds of thousands of things and policies are happening in parallel.
30:40Just because we are talking about Aurangzeb does not mean that India is not creating jobs,
30:45that the inflation is not being tackled. Last year, 47 million jobs were created.
30:50Inflation is at a five-year low of 3.5 to 4 percent. We have landed on the moon.
30:55We have circled Mars. It's not that we are just talking about Aurangzeb.
30:59We are just talking about one of the things other than the other things in science and technology.
31:04Just because you are not well-versed with science and technology doesn't mean that things are not happening on that front.
31:09Number two, the point that Waris Pathan sahab made factually is wrong and others also have made.
31:15Muslims indeed are and were celebrating Aurangzeb. You showed the Narebazi.
31:20There are thousands of others. In fact, Aurangabad has seen routine riots.
31:24You are making the point that that's a very minuscule number of Muslims.
31:27It's not as if the vast majority of Muslims support Aurangzeb or think of him as a hero.
31:32Please let me finish. For Waris Pathan to be so ignorant as to the fact that
31:39Oasis routinely visit the grave of Aurangzeb and pay their respects.
31:44There are photographs of it. Now people are clearly eulogizing Aurangzeb.
31:49Now I ask you a simple question. Are the people in the panel against Holocaust deniers being treated as a crime and a punishment?
31:58Is there a grave for Hitler? Why don't you realize that you are double standards?
32:03Because the more you venerate Aurangzeb, the more then you turn a blind eye to hundreds of thousands of Muslims.
32:12Then visiting Jinnah's grave is acceptable.
32:17Mr. Pathan, let Anand Ranganathan complete and then you make your point.
32:28He never lets me complete because he knows what I'm going to say next.
32:32All those people who celebrate or are quiet when Aurangzeb is celebrated,
32:36they are the ones who pour out on the streets in their tens of thousands to venerate,
32:40eulogize, celebrate Nasrallah, other terrorists, Burhan Wani, Yaqub Memon.
32:45Did you know there is a grave for Yaqub Memon?
32:47Now you can say, well, why rake up the Mumbai blast that happened 30 years ago?
32:52It's not a question of raking up. It's a question of doing what is right.
32:57Nobody wants to discuss Aurangzeb. But yes, certainly, if you eulogize him,
33:02the person who committed a genocide of millions of Hindus, then certainly it should be raked up.
33:07Okay, let Varish Pathan respond. What's the need for Asaddin Ovesi and his brother Akbaruddin Ovesi
33:14to go to the mazar of Aurangzeb, asks Anand Ranganathan.
33:18Here's a man who very clearly targeted hundreds of Hindus, if not thousands, if not lakhs.
33:22And if that's the extent of the attacks that he's doing, why go and worship him like a hero?
33:32Well, Rahul, it is an ASI protected monument. If you go there, what is an offence committed by them?
33:37Remove the ASI thing, you won't go there. But Advani ji going to Jinnah's graveyard in Pakistan,
33:42that is nobody's sentiments got hurt. Narendra Modi, Prime Minister of the country,
33:48goes to visit Bahadur Shah Zafar's, nobody gets disturbed.
33:52This is the way they want to take the country back to that era. Why? What is the harm?
33:57Remove the ASI tag, you won't go there. But here you don't want to do that.
34:00Anand, my friend, kindly try to understand, the Indian Muslims are no way concerned.
34:04If you want to remove the grave, take it. But what about the development?
34:08You have just barefooted the shoes since the last 17 days, without any rems or fences.
34:12What are you doing? What do you want to do in the country? You are just trying to create hatred.
34:16More hatred is growing in the country because of such kind of things which are wrecking up by the BJP.
34:21Because you want to polarize the situation. You have totally failed in the field of development.
34:25You want to divert the mind of the nation and which you have successfully done it.
34:28That's why you are wrecking up an issue which is 400 years old.
34:31If Aurangzeb was a barber, he was a barber, ok, take it into consideration.
34:35He committed so much bloodbath on everybody.
34:38So will you revenge that from the present day Indian Muslims?
34:41Will you take that revenge from the present day Indian Muslims? You want to do that?
34:44Why then you wreck up the issue of that Aurangzeb now?
34:47You want to create this FBM now today with the Indian Muslims? No.
34:50So why? This is sensible people like Anand Ranganathan.
34:53They are in the country, they must come forward, tell the nation,
34:56please forget Aurangzeb, let him go to hell.
34:58Today we have to look forward. If you want to compete with China,
35:01otherwise if we go back to this thing, we will take one, not more than 5000 years.
35:06More than 5000 years will require us to compete with China now, Mr. Anand Ranganathan.
35:10If our country goes with this pace, if you go along with this,
35:13if you go only barber, barber, barber, since 400 years back,
35:16Aurangzeb, Aurangzeb, forget about Aurangzeb, he is gone.
35:19Matti mein mil gaya, kaam khatam ho gaya.
35:21Let Desh Ratan Nigam respond to what you are saying.
35:24Waris Pathan, Mr. Nigam, the argument is we have real challenges here and now.
35:30Artificial intelligence, the advances China is making on quantum computing,
35:34advances in, you know, they have just launched a new software after DeepSeek,
35:39which again shows the kind of, it's called Manus,
35:42the kind of new software capabilities they are demonstrating using artificial intelligence.
35:47The argument is that's where energy and public debate should be concentrated.
35:52Why isn't India doing a Manu, so why isn't India doing its own DeepSeek,
35:56rather than getting caught in these debates from history.
35:59How do you respond to that, Desh Ratan Nigam?
36:01Well, Rahul, in fact, Anand Ranganathan had very aptly put it.
36:06Development is going on at a very fast pace, whether it is in the field of software, hardware,
36:11artificial intelligence, and we have all heard Prime Minister speaking on the subject,
36:15and it is being done on a mission mode.
36:18And I can also, you know, add a huge amount of data, whether in terms of the railways, highways,
36:24or digital highways, or every other thing.
36:28But the point out here is, when you say a modern Muslim should not be held accountable,
36:33we do not hold modern Muslims or today's Muslims responsible.
36:37But whoever tries to eulogize Aurangzeb, tries to worship him, tries to make him a hero,
36:43they are the ones who have to be held accountable.
36:46There is no question about it.
36:48And therefore, to mix the two subjects of development and the Aurangzeb's barbarism or monstrosity,
36:56these are two different things.
36:59It is a matter of pride for our country that India's civilization values have to be taken forward,
37:04which were destroyed by the foreign invaders.
37:07And I will reiterate again, to teach monstrosity, barbarism, lunacy, tyranny of Aurangzeb is relevant for history.
37:16But however, to include him in our heritage, Aurangzeb is irrelevant. I sum it up like that.
37:23Okay, now Irfan Habib, the building of a grand Ram temple in Ayodhya provided the majority of people in this country
37:32a sense of catharsis, a civilizational catharsis of sorts.
37:36Now if that same Ram temple argument were to be extended, that this issue of Aurangzeb has been simmering for a while.
37:43It's exploded post the movie Chhava, but it's been simmering even before this,
37:47which is where the name of Aurangabad was changed to Sambhaji Nagar.
37:50So the debate has been around that if something symbolically were done, maybe it will provide a catharsis.
37:57That's what Anand Raghunathan was also saying.
37:59It provides like an outlet that some wrong of history in some fashion has been corrected.
38:05Do you buy that? Do you think that's logical?
38:08No, not at all. Not at all. Because this sort of catharsis, you know, you will not stop at Aurangzeb.
38:17You will find something else. So I don't know how far and for how many years will you go on visiting history and finding Aurangzeb's in history.
38:27There is no end to it. You have to go back to Buddha's later on when you are done with the Muslims.
38:34So I don't know what is the logic behind it.
38:38And these emotive appeals to people of all sorts of like persecutions, etc.
38:44Who will deny this? They are all recorded in history. Some of it is not recorded so well. Do it better.
38:51But don't come to the street to break each other's head.
38:54Now that is not the way to deal with history. I don't think history teaches you to go and kill each other in the name of Aurangzeb.
39:03Do you think post Chhawa what's happened is, Mr. Habib?
39:06Chhawa was, the film was made with that purpose. It has earned more than 500 crores.
39:13No, it has hit the right sentiment and it was supposed to do that.
39:22If you show, I have not seen the film, if you show Sambhaji's sufferings by Aurangzeb for 40 minutes in graphic details.
39:34Obviously if you show that on a screen, people are going to pause.
39:39But what's happened as a result, Mr. Habib.
39:43Mr. Habib, there are also historical accounts which some of whom depict Sambhaji Maharaj as having a problem with alcohol.
39:52Some of those accounts have recounted his liaisons with women and raised questions about his competence as a ruler.
40:00But because of the way the movies come out, it seems as if one perspective of Sambhaji Maharaj has now come to the fore and is being taken as the gospel.
40:11Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If you show that in graphic details, in video, in front of the people in the big screen.
40:18Obviously you will have some reactions and these reactions you can see in Nagpur and the whole of Maharashtra.
40:24Not that Sambhaji was not persecuted by Aurangzeb. Of course it is part of history.
40:31But if you show that in such detail, gory detail, obviously it is going to lead to some reaction.
40:37Anand Ranganathan, there are accounts from the court of Sambhaji Maharaj which present him in a very different light from what the movie shows.
40:42Are we now in a might is right, majority wins kind of binary where because this movie is made in this moment and at this current time,
40:50therefore they show what they think is right and therefore present the best of their man and the worst of his opponent?
40:58First of all, I am astonished by this argument. By that logic, the films like Schindler's List or The Pianist
41:07that showed the gory details of the reality of the Holocaust should not have been made.
41:12By that logic, don't write any book that tells you in graphic details about the atrocities that were created in the past.
41:20I did not interrupt you just because you are rattled by the illogic that you proposed.
41:28Just have the patience to listen. Number two, the fact of the matter is when this gentleman says,
41:34supposedly historian of science that one should not rake up the past, what's the point?
41:39Just ask him point blank. Should Ram temple issue have been raked up?
41:43Should you have Ram temple at all? Or is that anti-national as one other panacea also said?
41:48Where will all this end? This hatred for Hindus has to end.
41:52This hatred that was exemplified and put to stone by Dr. Ambedkar as the reality of one community.
42:01This has to end. Stop hating Hindus, please. We are your brothers. Stop it, Professor.
42:08You don't hate Hindus. This is. I must come in here.
42:15Professor Habib is a good friend of mine and I happen to be a Hindu. So stop this nonsense.
42:21This is absolutely stupid. You know what Mr. Daganathan just said. Stop this nonsense.
42:27Stop now. Stop. Listen to me. What I'm saying. Let Professor Habib speak. Let Mr. Habib speak, please.
42:37You see what Mr. Daganathan said, as he always says, he has no facts. He distorts facts.
42:45He distorts science. He has no clue of what science is. He claims to be a scientist.
42:51It is utter rubbish what he said just now. Globally. It makes no sense at all.
42:58What is this? And he's teaching me how to go about history. I didn't teach you how to do science.
43:03I don't understand. I do what I do. I know how to do it.
43:08This is becoming unnecessarily acrimonious. I don't want it to be personal because that's not the kind of debate we like to run.
43:16We want to raise the quality of the debate. Debate facts. Debate history.
43:19Try and win through the power of argument, not by trying to lower the quality of the argument by getting personal.
43:24That's not right. And I don't appreciate this at all. But Sanjay Hegde, I want to build on that Ram Temple argument
43:31to ask because there was a collective sense of catharsis. There are temples being built.
43:35Just look at the sheer number of people who go to the temple now. And therefore, to extend that argument to Sambhaji Nagar
43:43that if the grave is moved out as is being asked for, would that then provide some sort of closure in the moment to what was a clear historical wrong?
43:53Firstly, let me put it straight to you that the Ram Temple judgment of the Supreme Court
44:00very clearly said that the principle of non-retrogression was valid constitutionally and a good constitutional value
44:11that we would not rake up ancient wrongs. They were making an exception only for the Ram Temple.
44:19That was with regard to the Places of Worship Act. Parliament has taken a call saying that only the Ram Temple issue
44:27that they kept out and everything else was frozen. As a country, we have taken that call.
44:34Now today, somebody may have a problem with Aurangzeb. Tomorrow, another person may have a problem with Tipu Sultan.
44:42A third person may have a problem with Francis Xavier in Goa. I mean, where are we to stop?
44:51Our grandfathers may have fought. Our great grandfathers may have fought worse.
44:58The question is what kind of India are we building for our children and our grandchildren?
45:04Are we building a rancorous India driven by ancient enmity and identifying with stories of the past?
45:14You all know Hariri made one very great statement. He said the difference between man and animals
45:21is mankind's ability to tell stories. Now what is the story of India that we are building?
45:29Is it that we are an ancient civilization, a modern country where there have been waves of bad moments
45:41but we have overcome all of that? And as Nehru put it, a palimpsest of experiences which we look at.
45:51We have come through all that. Kuch baat hai humaari hasti mein ki mitti nahi. That is the India that we are building.
45:58It is not to go into ancient source, keep scratching wounds and keep inflaming them.
46:06Well, you've heard from different experts, different perspectives argued very passionately.
46:11I leave it to you, our viewers, to decide who they thought had the more compelling argument.
46:16I want to thank my guests for joining me on the news track.
46:18It's a murder that has stunned India. A man working in the United Kingdom killed and chopped by his wife and her lover.
46:25The cops are probing if both were into black magic.
46:28This even as images of the accused's room point to an obsession with drugs and satanic symbols.
46:41A murder that sent shockwaves across the nation. A wife, Muskaan, and her lover, Sahil,
46:49murder the husband, Saurabh, chop his body into pieces and hide it inside a drum and cover it with cement in Uttar Pradesh's Meerut.
47:04All because the husband, Saurabh, stopped Muskaan from consuming drugs with her illicit lover.
47:10After butchering Saurabh, Muskaan and Sahil went on a vacation.
47:16Distraught, Muskaan's parents say she does not deserve to live and must be hanged.
47:23She is behaving strangely.
47:27She has taken powder and drugs. This boy used to do this.
47:32My daughter says that he will not allow us to consume drugs and we will not be able to do it.
47:40Now we will have to get rid of him.
47:44Muskaan's parents believe her paramour, Sahil, got her addicted to drugs when their affair began.
47:53Now images have emerged of the accused Sahil's room that's filled with bizarre graffiti and some of it resembling satanic symbols as well.
48:09Sahil's room was also filled with alcohol bottles.
48:13What kind of thinking was this? Was it superstition?
48:18This is the angle of the police investigation.
48:21You can understand the state of mind of someone by looking at all the pictures here.
48:29There were also many such signs here.
48:32The police has recovered many things from here.
48:35You can see how addicted Sahil was.
48:49Muskaan and Sahil confessed to stabbing Saurabh to death.
48:56On the night of March 4th, Muskaan laced Saurabh's food with sedatives.
49:01After luring him on pretext of celebrating her birthday.
49:06The duo stabbed Saurabh in the chest with a butcher's knife and then slit his throat.
49:13They cut off his hands, hid it in a large plastic drum, cement and sand.
49:19Despite a two-hour effort, police were unable to open the drum due to the hardened cement and had it sent to the mortuary where the drum was eventually cut open to recover the body.
49:36The victim and Muskaan's husband Saurabh had told his family he worked in the Merchant Navy.
49:43But he was actually an officer in the Army.
49:47He was a soldier.
49:49He was a soldier.
49:51He was a soldier.
49:53He was a soldier.
49:55He was a soldier.
49:57He was a soldier.
49:59He was a soldier.
50:01He was a soldier.
50:02He was a soldier.
50:04He was a soldier.
50:06He was a soldier.
50:08He was a soldier.
50:10He was a soldier.
50:12He was a soldier.
50:14He was a soldier.
50:16He was a soldier.
50:18He was a soldier.
50:20He was a soldier.
50:22He was a soldier.
50:24He was a soldier.
50:26He was a soldier.
50:28He was a soldier.
50:30He was a soldier.